Grip pressure vs swing speed?

[Nickb333]

12 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

I've seen Scottie hit 183 ball speed.  Pretty sure he has more in the tank.  I remember hearing Brandel recently saying that Scottie can easily jack up his ball speed however, chooses to play a spinny cut at a lower ball speed in order to find more fairways.  He's number one in fairway proximity swinging almost 119 mph.  Si Woo and Collin are 2 and 3 respectively and they swing 5 mph slower. 

Bingo on Scottie. 

[MonteScheinblum]

58 minutes ago, johnrobison said:

Outliers? The photos you keep posting show nothing about grip pressure.

The day that people give up finding the few instances where an elite golfer did something as justification for hacks around the world to keep doing it, is the day handicaps world wide go down 25-50%.

 

 

[ThinkingPlus]

1 minute ago, MonteScheinblum said:

The day that people give up finding the few instances where an elite golfer did something as justification for hacks around the world to keep doing it, is the day handicaps world wide go down 25-50%.

 

 

Probably coincide with he11 freezing over so...

[nikos74]

20 hours ago, iacas said:

 

Let me re-phrase that for you: "I didn't consider all of the factors, including clubhead speed, despite that being the dominant factor in the grip strength required to hold onto a club."

 

 

 

Nobody here would disagree that excessive (the definition of which basically includes "too much" or "beyond the proper amount") grip pressure is a good thing.

 

"I know for a fact heavier objects need more force to be lifted and held than lighter objects do."

 

We all know that, but in talking about a golf club, it's not the "lifting" or "holding" of the club that's important, it's the swinging of it that is.

 

Swing speed is a complicated topic that involves many variables.

 

Having close to the correct club weight and swing weight allows the player to feel the club better in their swing while maintaining adequate control of it.  If the club feels light control will be sacrificed for feel.  If the club feels heavy swing speed is sacrificed and fatigue becomes an issue.

 

Telling people to grip their club as tight as possible without knowing their baseline grip pressure is irresponsible IMO, because chances are they will tense up and destroy their swing;  accuracy and swing speed will go down.  It's better to error on the weak side.  They will gradually tighten it as they play more and improve.

 

Edited June 13 by nikos74

[GoGoErky]

54 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

because chances are they will tense up and destroy their swing;  accuracy and swing speed will go down. 

The grip is supposed to not create the tension you refer to. If they are squeezing and causing tension in arms, shoulders, etc they aren’t gripping club properly 

[nikos74]

37 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

The grip is supposed to not create the tension you refer to. If they are squeezing and causing tension in arms, shoulders, etc they aren’t gripping club properly 

What does that even mean? 

The grip is strong, neutral, weak?

Too much in the palms or in the fingers?

If you are going to disagree at least explain why in a way that makes sense.  I am not a mind reader.

Butch says between 5 and 7 and he is one of the best coaches ever.

 

[Socrates]

52 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

The grip is supposed to not create the tension you refer to. If they are squeezing and causing tension in arms, shoulders, etc they aren’t gripping club properly 

 

9 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

What does that even mean? 

The grip is strong, neutral, weak?

Too much in the palms or in the fingers?

If you are going to disagree at least explain why in a way that makes sense.  I am not a mind reader.

Butch says between 5 and 7 and he is one of the best coaches ever.

 

Butch is correct.  The one thing (I think) he is assuming, is that the player has a good grip setup to start with.  Not a good grip to start with and all sorts of things can happen.  Too much pressure.  Not enough.  Pressure in the wrong places.  Unwanted tension.  

[betarhoalphadelta]

So let's summarize:

 

1. The golf swing generates a tremendous amount of force acting on the hands, and the hands must provide an equal amount of force to hang on to and control the club. 
2. The force needed to hang onto and control the club increases with swing speed. So the faster you swing, the more force you must have in your hands to hang on to the club. 
3. To swing effectively, you must be able to provide this force on the grip while not becoming overly tense or rigid in your wrists and forearms. 
4. People with higher grip strength have more ability to put large amounts of force onto the grip of the club with the hands while keeping their wrists and forearms relaxed and loose. People with lower grip strength can't apply those higher forces without significant effort, making it nearly impossible to keep the wrists and forearms relaxed and loose.
5. Ergo, people with higher grip strength have more natural capability to swing faster, as they can hang onto and control the club at higher speeds with less wrist/forearm tension than those with less grip strength.
6. HOWEVER, people with higher grip strength may do this while having a relative lower "feel" of perceived grip effort, because even though they may be gripping the club tighter than someone of lower grip strength, they are using a lower percentage of their overall grip strength than someone with less grip strength. #feelaintreal

/thread

[iacas]

2 hours ago, nikos74 said:

Swing speed is a complicated topic that involves many variables.

 

The point I'm making is that it also affects the amount of strength required to hold on to the grip so it doesn't slip from your hands. There's more than just holding a club's weight that matters.

 

2 hours ago, nikos74 said:

Having close to the correct club weight and swing weight allows the player to feel the club better in their swing while maintaining adequate control of it.  If the club feels light control will be sacrificed for feel.  If the club feels heavy swing speed is sacrificed and fatigue becomes an issue.

 

None of that's really on topic.

 

2 hours ago, nikos74 said:

Telling people to grip their club as tight as possible

 

I haven't done that. I don't think anyone's done that.

 

Goodness, man, what the heck are you even reading or talking about?

[Shilgy]

38 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

So let's summarize:

 

1. The golf swing generates a tremendous amount of force acting on the hands, and the hands must provide an equal amount of force to hang on to and control the club. 
2. The force needed to hang onto and control the club increases with swing speed. So the faster you swing, the more force you must have in your hands to hang on to the club. 
3. To swing effectively, you must be able to provide this force on the grip while not becoming overly tense or rigid in your wrists and forearms. 
4. People with higher grip strength have more ability to put large amounts of force onto the grip of the club with the hands while keeping their wrists and forearms relaxed and loose. People with lower grip strength can't apply those higher forces without significant effort, making it nearly impossible to keep the wrists and forearms relaxed and loose.
5. Ergo, people with higher grip strength have more natural capability to swing faster, as they can hang onto and control the club at higher speeds with less wrist/forearm tension than those with less grip strength.
6. HOWEVER, people with higher grip strength may do this while having a relative lower "feel" of perceived grip effort, because even though they may be gripping the club tighter than someone of lower grip strength, they are using a lower percentage of their overall grip strength than someone with less grip strength. #feelaintreal

/thread

C’mon man…this is golfwrx! You cannot /thread.🤣

 

That said….why do some either just choose to be obstinate or combative on every single thread?  Or is it just a lack of reading comprehension?

(that’s not directed at you or your post- but at others)

 

No one has said to use a death grip on the club.  But it must be gripped firmly for speed and control and no pictures of a finger or two loose can contradict that overall.  What is true is that “firmly” will likely feel somewhat loose to the player with very strong hands and firmer with a player with handles on the weaker side.

 I had a lesson a couple years ago on this issue.  I was gripping too loosely which cost speed and control.  Was told to feel like I was gripping at 12 on a scale to 10.  Which sounds extreme and would cause tension…except it didn’t because at the time my idea of “12/10” was still far short of a death grip.

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, nikos74 said:

What does that even mean? 

The grip is strong, neutral, weak?

Too much in the palms or in the fingers?

If you are going to disagree at least explain why in a way that makes sense.  I am not a mind reader.

Butch says between 5 and 7 and he is one of the best coaches ever.

 

Incorrectly gripping the club would be not in the middle fingers if the trail and and not along the base or in the fingers of the lead hand. Most amateurs who feel tension have the grip to much in the palm. 
 

You dont have to be a mind reader to understand what gripping the club correctly is unless you don’t understand what a proper grip is

[Pepperturbo]

20 hours ago, iacas said:

 

You seem to have confused facts with opinions again, @Pepperturbo. You can't disagree with facts, or measured data, and it's highly unlikely you're a magical unicorn capable of achieving something nobody else achieves.

 

Also, I didn't give an opinion on you or your game, nor did I offer you any guidance.

 

It's a discussion forum, though, so when you say stuff that doesn't make any actual sense, you'll be called on it. If not by me, by ten or twenty others.

Just because you call them facts, does NOT mean I see them the same.  

 

PS, I was just reminded by staff, regardless of who's behind the post, just because something is on the internet, doesn't make it a fact or truth.

Edited June 13 by Pepperturbo

[Socrates]

6 hours ago, Shilgy said:

C’mon man…this is golfwrx! You cannot /thread.🤣

 

Truth!! 

Visit the Rules and Etiquette section. 

There they beat a dead horse and then get a 2nd dead horse and beat that one too.

[Shilgy]

28 minutes ago, Socrates said:

Truth!! 

Visit the Rules and Etiquette section. 

There they beat a dead horse and then get a 2nd dead horse and beat that one too.

 

[Soloman1]

i think it’s a fact there are some people who are just obstinate narcissists incapable of learning anything, or of reasonable discussion.

 

it's quite sad, because there’s so much to learn and viewpoints to consider without keyboard tantrums.

 

know what i mean? 😉

 

[Soloman1]

1 hour ago, Jugs said:

 

 A gap between the trail thumb and forefinger.  This pressure point on the club is essential to having proper wrist movements and shaft angles in the downswing.  If these fingers have a gap, you can’t load and unload the club properly...

 

Interested in learning why a finger gap interferes with properly loading or unloading a wrist? 

 

i’ll take a stab at it. quick and dirty.

 

the primary driver of release is the lead wrist and hand. many players with what would be considered a stronger lead grip feel nothing with their trail hand at impact. no pressure on the pad of the trail index finger or pushing of the trail hand forward.

 

if you have different and wide pressure points on the grip, you have   altered and divided the speed by dividing the fulcrum.

 

if you tighten the gap during the downswing, it also moves the trail hand wrist away from extension.

 

im sure i’ll regret this comment later…

Edited June 13 by Soloman1

[GolfTurkey]

All that's required for this thread to be complete is for someone to insist that they are correct because they once got down to a 5 handicap.

[Shilgy]

50 minutes ago, GolfTurkey said:

All that's required for this thread to be complete is for someone to insist that they are correct because they once got down to a 5 handicap.

Left handed though?🙄

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Left handed though?🙄

 

[doctor220]

On 6/13/2024 at 1:01 PM, Pepperturbo said:

Just because you call them facts, does NOT mean I see them the same.  

 

PS, I was just reminded by staff, regardless of who's behind the post, just because something is on the internet, doesn't make it a fact or truth.

Ya man tell us more , greatest 5 handicap in the world. You’re wrong, it’s ok!

[Pepperturbo]

Just now, doctor220 said:

Ya man tell us more , greatest 5 handicap in the world. You’re wrong, it’s ok!

You're welcome to your opinion... But you're NOT welcome to tell me mine is wrong, especially since there are a slew of internet instructors that have different points of view often times on the same subject.  Geez... 

[iacas]

34 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

You're welcome to your opinion... But you're NOT welcome to tell me mine is wrong, especially since there are a slew of internet instructors that have different points of view often times on the same subject.  Geez... 

 

What you got wrong is this, and the problem is… it's not really an opinion:

 

On 6/10/2024 at 1:52 PM, Pepperturbo said:

IMO Whatever your grip pressure is, it contributes to feeling the clubhead throughout the swing; it should remain consistent from initial grip to finish.  If it changes, that means you changed your grip in your backswing. 

 

You either do what you say or you don't, and since what you say is basically impossible, you don't maintain a "consistent" grip pressure from "initial grip to finish." Additionally, you'll find no measured data out there showing this for a full swing by a good player (that isn't a robot).

 

#FeelAintReal

[Valtiel]

On 6/13/2024 at 10:01 AM, Pepperturbo said:

Just because you call them facts, does NOT mean I see them the same.  

And just because you don't see them the same does NOT mean they aren't facts, and arguably this view is more dangerous to the concept of objective/measured truth which is something that we all should be very careful of. 
 

On 6/14/2024 at 10:19 AM, Pepperturbo said:

You're welcome to your opinion... But you're NOT welcome to tell me mine is wrong.

If your opinion is measurable and the measurements contradict what you're saying, then your opinion is wrong. 

[Valtiel]

On 6/13/2024 at 8:00 AM, iacas said:

I haven't done that. I don't think anyone's done that.

 

Goodness, man, what the heck are you even reading or talking about?

Funny thing...when I was doing some quick double checking on the Sam Snead "baby bird" quote, I came across this:



Smoking gun! Iacas has been telling us to strangle the club as hard as we can for at least 13 years now!

[Fhbrook23]

On 6/14/2024 at 1:19 PM, Pepperturbo said:

You're welcome to your opinion... But you're NOT welcome to tell me mine is wrong, especially since there are a slew of internet instructors that have different points of view often times on the same subject.  Geez... 

Most opinions by nature are wrong because they’re referencing something objective.  My opinion is my ball look 45 yds from the hole because to my eye and from past experience it looks like 45. It even feels 45.  My range finder says it’s 65.  Wouldn’t I be silly to not recognize my opinion was wrong and adjust? 

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, Fhbrook23 said:

Most opinions by nature are wrong because they’re referencing something objective.  My opinion is my ball look 45 yds from the hole because to my eye and from past experience it looks like 45. It even feels 45.  My range finder says it’s 65.  Wouldn’t I be silly to not recognize my opinion was wrong and adjust? 

Nah…send the rangefinder back to Mr Bushnell and tell him your vast experience says it’s wrong.🙄

[PedronNiall]

Only thing I'll add is I'm surprised how slow detailed data gathering has been. An additional study came out end of last year IIRC and it too lacked many professionals in its data. Strange given how many pros we have all kinds of slowmo video and full 3D for at this point. It would be extremely helpful in the discussion if there were more substantial info being collected to give a consistent baseline on 1. Measured total pressure at different points in the swing 2. Percentage of max at each of those points 3. Actual mapping of how the pressure is applied. 

 

One of Clay Ballard's more in-depth videos on pressure specifically discusses pressure variation in terms of the lead hand only. It appears from the pics here plus the ones of Phil that pop up in these threads that it's the lead hand doing most of the heavy lifting. Tiger calls his lead hand his "control hand" and his trail hand his "speed hand".

 

Having more detailed dynomometer/pressure map readings from top pros would go a long, long way in helping Ams get a clear baseline for how much force is needed and where/how it needs to be applied to keep clubs in control at speed. Except for those whose opinions take precedence over reality, of course, but what can ya do? 

[GoGoErky]

14 minutes ago, PedronNiall said:

Tiger calls his lead hand his "control hand" and his trail hand his "speed hand".

And Hogan talked wishing he had 3 right hands

[Three_Jack]

How the hell does one "grip it tight" without having tension in your forearms...

 

The muscles that control your grip/hand are IN your forearms lol

 

Edited June 17 by Three_Jack

[PedronNiall]

2 hours ago, Three_Jack said:

How the hell does one "grip it tight" without having tension in your forearms...

 

The muscles that control your grip/hand are IN your forearms lol

 

 

If you mess around with your grip enough you'll see there's a noticeable difference in tension when you grip properly with the pressure in the first three fingers of your lead and middle two of your trail hand vs improperly with a ton of pressure on your index & thumb of either hand. Interlocking has a slight advantage there as the lead index and trail pinky don't have much chance to do anything out of sorts so that may be helpful for feels if it's unclear for someone. You can even just make partial vs full fists with each and feel the variation in tension in your forearms and the difference in freedom of movement at the elbows & shoulders with each. 

 

Hence the pics of players including Jack with the trail hand index & thumb open at the top while still in control of the club with the key fingers. If the grip is in the fingers properly, not up in the palms, and the pressure is applied correctly, control is maintained without unnecessary tension in the forearms, at the elbow, and up into the shoulders.