Can a 4-handicap man beat an LPGA pro?

[gwlee7]

Is there a difference between men's and women's handicaps, or are all 4s equal regardless of sex?

 

It still needs to take in to account course rating I believe. Handicap is based on that. A male playing to a "4" is playing an "easier" course than a female playing to a "4" if they are using the same tees. The ratings are different for them even though it's the same tee box and length.

[dpb5031]

Is there a difference between men's and women's handicaps, or are all 4s equal regardless of sex?

 

Huge difference. Course ratings are different for men and women.

 

E.g. Women's USGA qualifiers are usually played from middle tees at around 6250. If a man plays the same tees the course rating entered when he enters his score into GHIN would typically be 71. When a woman enters her score into GHIN the course rating from the exact same tees will be somewhere around 78.

 

So if the male player and female player shoot 78, the differential is 7 for the guy, 0 for the woman. The woman's handicap will end up being MUCH lower.

 

That's why you have to add the rating difference to a woman's course handicap if she's going to compete against men from the same tees.

[bph7]

 

 

You're last statement is incorrect. Handicaps do go up and down based on which set of tees you play. Especially men v. women.

 

Course ratings are very different for women than they are for men.

 

If a 0 handicap female plays from the back tees, competing against men, the difference between the men's course rating and the women's course rating from the same tees is added to her handicap to make it a fair match.

 

Edit for aggravating phone auto-correct! ��

 

I know about men's vs women's handicap. That's not what I was referring to, although I admit I wasnt clear. I was trying to say there is no such thing as "I'm a scratch but only from X tees", which is said all the time. Scratch is scratch, means essentially you are shooting the men's rating if a guy on average for top 50% of scores. If that player moved back a set of tees, the rating would go up, so the worse course that said golfer shoots should still be around the (higher) rating and keep them at scratch. I admit I was less than clear.

 

The reason I pointed this out is that in my experience most are unaware of this stipulation when it comes to handicapping.

 

When a female player posts a score from the middle or back tees, the course rating is entirely different than for a male player posting from the same tees. In many cases it's a 5,6, and even 7 shot difference.

 

The end result is seen in the differentials. So, a man and a woman play the tips and both shoot the same score, the effects on their handicap index are completely different. The woman's index will end up being much lower than the man's.

 

Exactly. For example, the white tees at our course play 6607. The men's course rating is 71.0. But for women it is 78.5

 

BINGO!

 

Yes, if all rounds were played at that course a male scratch would be 7-8 strokes better than a woman at scratch, at least in terms of differentials.

[dpb5031]

Put another way, a zero handicap woman competing against men from the men's tees will typically be somewhere between a 6-8 handicap.

 

BTW, I think it's far from a perfect system. Female tournament players end up with confusing and deceptively low handicaps

[b.helts]

No I didnt. An insult is an abusive or scornful remark. That's what the word means. Stating a fact isn't abusive or scornful. So I didn't change the premise, I just used the word in its proper context.

 

For example. Saying an lpga pro would kick the s*** out of a 4 cap is not insulting. It is true. Another example, saying Nikegal would smoke me from the blues at Oakmont isn't insulting to me. Because it is true.

 

It is not incorrect. The way a fact is presented can be insulting, but the fact itself is not insulting.

 

If you are insulted by facts it is because you are not seeking the truth, you are seeking attention.

 

If a person is by definition obese, that is a fact. If you call them lard Word not allowed, why that may technically be correct, it is insulting, fact remains though....

 

Good lord you two. You both tell me I'm wrong and then you make my argument for me.

 

Read what my post says, not what you think it says.

[b.helts]

Put another way, a zero handicap woman competing against men from the men's tees will typically be somewhere between a 6-8 handicap.

 

BTW, I think it's far from a perfect system. Female tournament players end up with confusing and deceptively low handicaps

 

<sigh> this is wrong.

 

A woman competing against men from the men's tees will still have the same handicap she had before. She would shoot about the same scores as a 6-8 handicap man.

[iteachgolf]

Put another way, a zero handicap woman competing against men from the men's tees will typically be somewhere between a 6-8 handicap.

 

BTW, I think it's far from a perfect system. Female tournament players end up with confusing and deceptively low handicaps

 

<sigh> this is wrong.

 

A woman competing against men from the men's tees will still have the same handicap she had before. She would shoot about the same scores as a 6-8 handicap man.

 

Actually you're wrong. She'd have the same INDEX but her course handicap would be 6-8. So in fact her handicap would be 6-8 from those tees. Index stays the same but handicap absolutely changes depending on tees played.

[b.helts]

Put another way, a zero handicap woman competing against men from the men's tees will typically be somewhere between a 6-8 handicap.

 

BTW, I think it's far from a perfect system. Female tournament players end up with confusing and deceptively low handicaps

 

<sigh> this is wrong.

 

A woman competing against men from the men's tees will still have the same handicap she had before. She would shoot about the same scores as a 6-8 handicap man.

 

Actually you're wrong. She'd have the same INDEX but her course handicap would be 6-8. So in fact her handicap would be 6-8 from those tees. Index stays the same but handicap absolutely changes depending on tees played.

 

Just because a woman is playing against men doesn't change the way the handicap system works. A woman's rating is a woman's rating.

 

Now if you are talking about a net event you may be right. But I don't think that's what we're talking about.

[wobgon]

It's too bad this thread was not tittled, can a +2 man beat an LPGA tour pro? I think it would lead to more interesting debate.

[iteachgolf]

Put another way, a zero handicap woman competing against men from the men's tees will typically be somewhere between a 6-8 handicap.

 

BTW, I think it's far from a perfect system. Female tournament players end up with confusing and deceptively low handicaps

 

<sigh> this is wrong.

 

A woman competing against men from the men's tees will still have the same handicap she had before. She would shoot about the same scores as a 6-8 handicap man.

 

Actually you're wrong. She'd have the same INDEX but her course handicap would be 6-8. So in fact her handicap would be 6-8 from those tees. Index stays the same but handicap absolutely changes depending on tees played.

 

Just because a woman is playing against men doesn't change the way the handicap system works. A woman's rating is a woman's rating.

 

Now if you are talking about a net event you may be right. But I don't think that's what we're talking about.

 

Actually it does. It's you who doesn't understand how the system works. A women playing the back tees would have a course handicap of 6-8. The scratch male golfer would have a course handicap for 0-1 from those tees. He'd have to give the woman 6-7 shots.

 

Again I suggest you actually do some reading. Course handicap and index are very different. Again index is constant but the handicap changes based on tees you play as it relates the course rating of the tees being played. So because her rating is 6-8 shots higher than the men's rating she would be getting those 6-8 shots. THAT is EXACTLY how the handicap system works

[Obee]

It's too bad this thread was not tittled, can a +2 man beat an LPGA tour pro? I think it would lead to more interesting debate.

 

This thread has been done many times over. And it's not a debate. A male +2 can beat an LPGA Tour pro. And an LPGA Tour pro can beat a male +2.

[b.helts]

Put another way, a zero handicap woman competing against men from the men's tees will typically be somewhere between a 6-8 handicap.

 

BTW, I think it's far from a perfect system. Female tournament players end up with confusing and deceptively low handicaps

 

<sigh> this is wrong.

 

A woman competing against men from the men's tees will still have the same handicap she had before. She would shoot about the same scores as a 6-8 handicap man.

 

Actually you're wrong. She'd have the same INDEX but her course handicap would be 6-8. So in fact her handicap would be 6-8 from those tees. Index stays the same but handicap absolutely changes depending on tees played.

 

Just because a woman is playing against men doesn't change the way the handicap system works. A woman's rating is a woman's rating.

 

Now if you are talking about a net event you may be right. But I don't think that's what we're talking about.

 

Actually it does. It's you who doesn't understand how the system works. A women playing the back tees would have a course handicap of 6-8. The scratch male golfer would have a course handicap for 0-1 from those tees. He'd have to give the woman 6-7 shots.

 

Again I suggest you actually do some reading. Course handicap and index are very different. Again index is constant but the handicap changes based on tees you play as it relates the course rating of the tees being played. So because her rating is 6-8 shots higher than the men's rating she would be getting those 6-8 shots. THAT is EXACTLY how the handicap system works

 

So we are talking about a net event?

 

When she posts 77 is her differential 5 or 0?

[wobgon]

It's too bad this thread was not tittled, can a +2 man beat an LPGA tour pro? I think it would lead to more interesting debate.

 

This thread has been done many times over. And it's not a debate. A male +2 can beat an LPGA Tour pro. And an LPGA Tour pro can be at male +2.

Agree with the 2nd part of what you say, which is the reason folks will have different opinions on the subject......As the current title reads, 99% are on the same side of the issue. As far as it not being a debate. Anything can be a debate.

[b.helts]

...Anything can be a debate.

 

I vehemently disagree!!

 

lol

[bph7]

Ok, so we've all agreed that a 4 cap would have no chance. What would it take. Let's say to beat an lpga player ranked 50-100. I'd say a legit plus 2 with tourney experience could compete with lpga 50-100.

[dpb5031]

Put another way, a zero handicap woman competing against men from the men's tees will typically be somewhere between a 6-8 handicap.

 

BTW, I think it's far from a perfect system. Female tournament players end up with confusing and deceptively low handicaps

 

<sigh> this is wrong.

 

A woman competing against men from the men's tees will still have the same handicap she had before. She would shoot about the same scores as a 6-8 handicap man.

 

I can assure you I am not wrong. Do some homework and get back to us.

 

Edited to add a <sigh> ?

[iteachgolf]

 

<sigh> this is wrong.

 

A woman competing against men from the men's tees will still have the same handicap she had before. She would shoot about the same scores as a 6-8 handicap man.

 

Actually you're wrong. She'd have the same INDEX but her course handicap would be 6-8. So in fact her handicap would be 6-8 from those tees. Index stays the same but handicap absolutely changes depending on tees played.

 

Just because a woman is playing against men doesn't change the way the handicap system works. A woman's rating is a woman's rating.

 

Now if you are talking about a net event you may be right. But I don't think that's what we're talking about.

 

Actually it does. It's you who doesn't understand how the system works. A women playing the back tees would have a course handicap of 6-8. The scratch male golfer would have a course handicap for 0-1 from those tees. He'd have to give the woman 6-7 shots.

 

Again I suggest you actually do some reading. Course handicap and index are very different. Again index is constant but the handicap changes based on tees you play as it relates the course rating of the tees being played. So because her rating is 6-8 shots higher than the men's rating she would be getting those 6-8 shots. THAT is EXACTLY how the handicap system works

 

So we are talking about a net event?

 

It's not an event. It's a match. And yes to play a match using the handicap system that is exactly how it works. If they are going to play straight up then they are not using the handicap system and handicaps are pointless. And if they play straight up the woman would get destroyed. This is literally why the handicap system was developed. If everyone played straight up regardless of course rating their would no need for any handicap system.

 

Again read the entire previously quoted conversation. If we are using handicaps and the men's rating is 72 and the women's rating is 78 and both players are a 0 she will play to a 6 handicap using the men's rating. This is EXACTLY what Dewey said where you told him he was wrong. He is literally describing that a 0 handicap woman is 6 handicap when using the men's rating.

[b.helts]

Put another way, a zero handicap woman competing against men from the men's tees will typically be somewhere between a 6-8 handicap.

 

BTW, I think it's far from a perfect system. Female tournament players end up with confusing and deceptively low handicaps

 

<sigh> this is wrong.

 

A woman competing against men from the men's tees will still have the same handicap she had before. She would shoot about the same scores as a 6-8 handicap man.

 

I can assure you I am not wrong. Do some homework and get back to us.

 

Edited to add a <sigh>

 

Are you talking about in a net event?

[iteachgolf]

 

 

<sigh> this is wrong.

 

A woman competing against men from the men's tees will still have the same handicap she had before. She would shoot about the same scores as a 6-8 handicap man.

 

Actually you're wrong. She'd have the same INDEX but her course handicap would be 6-8. So in fact her handicap would be 6-8 from those tees. Index stays the same but handicap absolutely changes depending on tees played.

 

Just because a woman is playing against men doesn't change the way the handicap system works. A woman's rating is a woman's rating.

 

Now if you are talking about a net event you may be right. But I don't think that's what we're talking about.

 

Actually it does. It's you who doesn't understand how the system works. A women playing the back tees would have a course handicap of 6-8. The scratch male golfer would have a course handicap for 0-1 from those tees. He'd have to give the woman 6-7 shots.

 

Again I suggest you actually do some reading. Course handicap and index are very different. Again index is constant but the handicap changes based on tees you play as it relates the course rating of the tees being played. So because her rating is 6-8 shots higher than the men's rating she would be getting those 6-8 shots. THAT is EXACTLY how the handicap system works

 

So we are talking about a net event?

 

When she posts 77 is her differential 5 or 0?

 

Again he was saying what she would play to against the men. Meaning how many strokes a man of the same handicap would have to give her. Your actually proving my point for me and you don't realize it. You're trying to argue something that isn't even the conversation.

[2bGood]

Ok, so we've all agreed that a 4 cap would have no chance. What would it take. Let's say to beat an lpga player ranked 50-100. I'd say a legit plus 2 with tourney experience could compete with lpga 50-100.

 

I you really want the have the debate you have to rephrase the question to specify that you are talking about the majority of the time, not just a one off win. I can beat PGA pro one time, but not even close the majority of the time.

[iteachgolf]

Put another way, a zero handicap woman competing against men from the men's tees will typically be somewhere between a 6-8 handicap.

 

BTW, I think it's far from a perfect system. Female tournament players end up with confusing and deceptively low handicaps

 

<sigh> this is wrong.

 

A woman competing against men from the men's tees will still have the same handicap she had before. She would shoot about the same scores as a 6-8 handicap man.

 

I can assure you I am not wrong. Do some homework and get back to us.

 

Edited to add a <sigh> ��

 

Are you talking about in a net event?

 

As already stated. The only event where handicaps are applicable is a net event. If you aren't playing a net event handicaps don't matter and aren't even a discussion. This is very simple

[b.helts]

It's not an event. It's a match. And yes to play a match using the handicap system that is exactly how it works. If they are going to play straight up then they are not using the handicap system and handicaps are pointless. And if they play straight up the woman would get destroyed. This is literally why the handicap system was developed. If everyone played straight up regardless of course rating their would no need for any handicap system.

 

Again read the entire previously quoted conversation. If we are using handicaps and the men's rating is 72 and the women's rating is 78 and both players are a 0 she will play to a 6 handicap using the men's rating. This is EXACTLY what Dewey said where you told him he was wrong. He is literally describing that a 0 handicap woman is 6 handicap when using the men's rating.

 

In a net match, yes. But dpb5031 said a woman competing against men. Which lead me to believe we were talking about an Annika Sorenstam or Michelle Wie situation, not a net match. Men is plural which is not a one vs. one match.

 

LOL

[b.helts]

Put another way, a zero handicap woman competing against men from the men's tees will typically be somewhere between a 6-8 handicap.

 

BTW, I think it's far from a perfect system. Female tournament players end up with confusing and deceptively low handicaps

 

<sigh> this is wrong.

 

A woman competing against men from the men's tees will still have the same handicap she had before. She would shoot about the same scores as a 6-8 handicap man.

 

I can assure you I am not wrong. Do some homework and get back to us.

 

Edited to add a <sigh> ��

 

Are you talking about in a net event?

 

As already stated. The only event where handicaps are applicable is a net event. If you aren't playing a net event handicaps don't matter and aren't even a discussion. This is very simple

 

Sure but earlier you were using handicaps to compare boys to women that play in only gross events.

[Shilgy]

I came into this thread expecting lots of people completely misunderstanding the handicap system. Was not disappointed. The USGA really needs to do a better job explaining to people what a handicap index actually is and how it's calculated because it's clear that like 90% of golfers have no clue (I.e. it's NOT average score in relation to par and it should not go up or down based on what tees you play).

 

You're last statement is incorrect. Handicaps do go up and down based on which set of tees you play. Especially men v. women.

 

Course ratings are very different for women than they are for men.

 

If a 0 handicap female plays from the back tees, competing against men, the difference between the men's course rating and the women's course rating from the same tees is added to her handicap to make it a fair match.

 

Edit for aggravating phone auto-correct!

 

I know about men's vs women's handicap. That's not what I was referring to, although I admit I wasnt clear. I was trying to say there is no such thing as "I'm a scratch but only from X tees", which is said all the time. Scratch is scratch, means essentially you are shooting the men's rating if a guy on average for top 50% of scores. If that player moved back a set of tees, the rating would go up, so the worse course that said golfer shoots should still be around the (higher) rating and keep them at scratch. I admit I was less than clear.

 

The reason I pointed this out is that in my experience most are unaware of this stipulation when it comes to handicapping.

 

When a female player posts a score from the middle or back tees, the course rating is entirely different than for a male player posting from the same tees. In many cases it's a 5,6, and even 7 shot difference.

 

The end result is seen in the differentials. So, a man and a woman play the tips and both shoot the same score, the effects on their handicap index are completely different. The woman's index will end up being much lower than the man's.

But for the purpose of this thread that handicap difference does not matter.We are comparing the womens LPGA scores to the scores of a certain male handicap from a certain length of course. No one is comparing a +2 women to anything that I read.

[chrismikayla]

Ok, so we've all agreed that a 4 cap would have no chance. What would it take. Let's say to beat an lpga player ranked 50-100. I'd say a legit plus 2 with tourney experience could compete with lpga 50-100.

 

I would say a legit +4 with tournament experience to have a chance.

[dpb5031]

It's not an event. It's a match. And yes to play a match using the handicap system that is exactly how it works. If they are going to play straight up then they are not using the handicap system and handicaps are pointless. And if they play straight up the woman would get destroyed. This is literally why the handicap system was developed. If everyone played straight up regardless of course rating their would no need for any handicap system.

 

Again read the entire previously quoted conversation. If we are using handicaps and the men's rating is 72 and the women's rating is 78 and both players are a 0 she will play to a 6 handicap using the men's rating. This is EXACTLY what Dewey said where you told him he was wrong. He is literally describing that a 0 handicap woman is 6 handicap when using the men's rating.

 

In a net match, yes. But dpb5031 said a woman competing against men. Which lead me to believe we were talking about an Annika Sorenstam or Michelle Wie situation, not a net match. Men is plural which is not a one vs. one match.

 

LOL

 

If they're playing straight up then handicaps are irrelevant. That should be obvious. And it doesn't matter if it's a one on one match or against an entire field.

[iteachgolf]

 

 

<sigh> this is wrong.

 

A woman competing against men from the men's tees will still have the same handicap she had before. She would shoot about the same scores as a 6-8 handicap man.

 

I can assure you I am not wrong. Do some homework and get back to us.

 

Edited to add a <sigh> ��

 

Are you talking about in a net event?

 

As already stated. The only event where handicaps are applicable is a net event. If you aren't playing a net event handicaps don't matter and aren't even a discussion. This is very simple

 

Sure but earlier you were using handicaps to compare boys to women that play in only gross events.

 

Again I don't think you understand the handicap system. Using handicap to ESTIMATE score in gross events is also exactly what the handicap is designed to do. So handicap is a perfect example to compare two groups of people and when I did so I used the men's rating for both so it was an apples to apples comparison

[HitEmTrue]

Put another way, a zero handicap woman competing against men from the men's tees will typically be somewhere between a 6-8 handicap.

 

BTW, I think it's far from a perfect system. Female tournament players end up with confusing and deceptively low handicaps

 

<sigh> this is wrong.

 

A woman competing against men from the men's tees will still have the same handicap she had before. She would shoot about the same scores as a 6-8 handicap man.

 

I can assure you I am not wrong. Do some homework and get back to us.

 

Edited to add a <sigh> ��

 

Are you talking about in a net event?

 

So now you want the lady to shoot the same score as a 6-8 index man (that's what you said she'd shoot), from the back tees, and somehow compete with the scratch golfer from those tees? Without getting any strokes?

[b.helts]

It's not an event. It's a match. And yes to play a match using the handicap system that is exactly how it works. If they are going to play straight up then they are not using the handicap system and handicaps are pointless. And if they play straight up the woman would get destroyed. This is literally why the handicap system was developed. If everyone played straight up regardless of course rating their would no need for any handicap system.

 

Again read the entire previously quoted conversation. If we are using handicaps and the men's rating is 72 and the women's rating is 78 and both players are a 0 she will play to a 6 handicap using the men's rating. This is EXACTLY what Dewey said where you told him he was wrong. He is literally describing that a 0 handicap woman is 6 handicap when using the men's rating.

 

In a net match, yes. But dpb5031 said a woman competing against men. Which lead me to believe we were talking about an Annika Sorenstam or Michelle Wie situation, not a net match. Men is plural which is not a one vs. one match.

 

LOL

 

If they're playing straight up then handicaps are irrelevant. That should be obvious. And it doesn't matter if it's a one on one match or against an entire field.

 

NET! LOL

 

OK.

[b.helts]

Put another way, a zero handicap woman competing against men from the men's tees will typically be somewhere between a 6-8 handicap.

 

BTW, I think it's far from a perfect system. Female tournament players end up with confusing and deceptively low handicaps

 

<sigh> this is wrong.

 

A woman competing against men from the men's tees will still have the same handicap she had before. She would shoot about the same scores as a 6-8 handicap man.

 

I can assure you I am not wrong. Do some homework and get back to us.

 

Edited to add a <sigh> ��

 

Are you talking about in a net event?

 

So now you want the lady to shoot the same score as a 6-8 index man (that's what you said she'd shoot), from the back tees, and somehow compete with the scratch golfer from those tees? Without getting any strokes?

 

No. I didn't realize we went from comparing two golfers to two golfers competing against each other net.

 

That was never clear to me.