Can a 4-handicap man beat an LPGA pro?

[iteachgolf]

Any relation to Len? I guess ask is the 223 rating due to fewer starts?

 

His nephew. No. He can be inconsistent. When he's good he's good. He's a pretty short hitter with some unique things going on in his swing. He finished 2nd in boys junior the year before and then top 20 his senior year. Played in US Jr. But also events where he missed the cut and shot high 70s. His tournament stroke average was 74 iirc. If anything he was hurt by playing too many events and finishing middle of the pack in smaller events. Some kids get highly ranked with small sample sizes and only play big events so they don't risk dropping in rankings. Long term playing as often as possible will help him.

 

Florida has some ridiculously good golfers. There are probably 10 boarding academies in the state where it's essentially golf all the time.

I think your last paragraph is the key. When you state the average, or good, Florida high school boy is better than the woman pro it reads in print like the averaged high schooler. Florida with its academies is certainly a different animal.

But I will stand by my other statements that comparing a lpga players average score to a handicap is incorrect. Same as thinking a players driving average is their max. Same as thinking the typical course set up for the ladies is "easy".

 

It is set up easy compared to men's tournaments. I'd love to play the setups they use daily. Again I'm not basing anything based on handicaps or anything else but what I've seen with my own eyes and over 15 years of playing with top women then teaching top women and men. What I've witnessed with my own eyes and I've watched LPGA Tour players get beat by scratch club golfers straight up.

That doesn't make them worse, only different conditions. If the women played in tall grass around the greens their short games would need to be better and they would be. But, that's not how to get paid on the LPGA. Given the same environment, women have better fine motor skills (e.g. soft hands at low speed) and guys can hit it further. Other than that, no difference.

 

Except that out of thicker rough, more speed and stronger hands is exactly what you need. Speed is necessary around the greens, more speed results in more spin which is why the guys are better in longer rough to firmer and faster greens. The hole locations being easier also has a big effect on ball striking. They don't put the holes near edges of the green because of how many players hit fairway woods or hybrids into greens.

[Jp k]

Again, given the same environment they would catch up on all aspects except power. I get where your coming from except the top female amateurs i play with have plenty of 'hand' strength and speed to spin the ball. They're no flowers. I don't think biceps won any majors, though. Tiger never kissed his guns but he did talk about driving straight and his putter. Hand strength is not that important a distinguishing factor. Distance, of course, I agree. I'm hitting 6i to some of their rescue clubs. But, they'll also hit 14/14 fairways.

[isaacbm]

This thread hurts my head. How do people not understand math at such a remedial level? It's not opinion, it's math.

 

The top 10 women in the world are +3 handicaps if rated equally from the men's tees. I'm basing this on actual scores vs course rating/slope.

The women from 75-100 in the world are between 0-1 handicaps. Again based on scoring averages vs course rating/slope

 

So in order for a man to be competitive with a woman with those handicaps, he would have to have the same handicap but it would have to be a travelling-tournament-only handicap.

 

A club 4 handicap? Not even worth discussing. But a guy that travels and keeps only a tourney cap that hovers around 0 would be competitive with an LPGA player ranking 75-100.

 

This isn't my opinion. It's math. That's the whole reason we have the handicap system. Of course the system only works if there's integrity in keeping accurate scores. That's why only tournament scores can be used if this discussion is to have value.

 

As far as the whole "under pressure/in front of crowds/under the lights" argument goes, half of the top Ladies are basically kids when they first get out on tour. They are not some freaks that eat pressure for breakfast. They are just kids that handle pressure well. Same as the boys that make cuts on the PGA tour as teenagers. The pressure that some of these kids are subjected to is enormous. You either relish in it or you don't. The players (men or women) that can shoot double digits under par in national events are all the same in my eyes as to the ability do deal with "pressure."

 

Again, that's why only tournament scores count.

[Petunia Sprinkle]

This thread hurts my head. How do people not understand math at such a remedial level? It's not opinion, it's math.

 

The top 10 women in the world are +3 handicaps if rated equally from the men's tees. I'm basing this on actual scores vs course rating/slope.

The women from 75-100 in the world are between 0-1 handicaps. Again based on scoring averages vs course rating/slope

 

So in order for a man to be competitive with a woman with those handicaps, he would have to have the same handicap but it would have to be a travelling-tournament-only handicap.

 

A club 4 handicap? Not even worth discussing. But a guy that travels and keeps only a tourney cap that hovers around 0 would be competitive with an LPGA player ranking 75-100.

 

This isn't my opinion. It's math. That's the whole reason we have the handicap system. Of course the system only works if there's integrity in keeping accurate scores. That's why only tournament scores can be used if this discussion is to have value.

 

As far as the whole "under pressure/in front of crowds/under the lights" argument goes, half of the top Ladies are basically kids when they first get out on tour. They are not some freaks that eat pressure for breakfast. They are just kids that handle pressure well. Same as the boys that make cuts on the PGA tour as teenagers. The pressure that some of these kids are subjected to is enormous. You either relish in it or you don't. The players (men or women) that can shoot double digits under par in national events are all the same in my eyes as to the ability do deal with "pressure."

 

Again, that's why only tournament scores count.

 

The End.

[dg_1983]

A US 4 Handicapper would be doing well to break 80 4 rounds in a row, week after week, never mind beating anyone else.

 

In the grand scheme of things a typical 4 isn't that good at the game of golf.

 

Don't think they could keep up pace with the girls making money out of the game.

[glcoach]

This thread is silly, yes a 4 handicap would get beaten, badlly. That's not even a real scenario.

 

However, I would like to see what most 4 handicaps would do to a 6100 yard course with every pin in the middle of the green on fantastic rolling 10 stimp greens and little to no rough (which is the setup at most LPGA events) in a CASUAL(yet rule following) round. IMO, most of them would shoot a career low score...

 

If you think playing a round on tour (yes, even the much maligned LPGA tour) is ever "casual," there's a huge amount of cognitive dissonance happening.

 

Totally missed my point. All I said was I would like to see 4 caps play a casual round (meaning non competitive) on an LPGA setup. I think they would play pretty good. That's all.

[MtlJeff]

OK who wins? A top ranked symetra tour player, or one of the top junior amateur boys in Florida, except before the match the boy has to smoke his first cigar and do 10 shots of a very cheap bourbon. Also the girl that he has a crush on from school will be watching the match except with another guy.

 

I think the symetra tour player beats him

[nikegal]

A 4~ handicap will not beat me, 99/100 times from the mens' tourney blues(6500-6800), for money. Have a nice day :) Maddie

[GoldenBellGW]

Could you use Annika and Wie's performances at the Sony Open as barometers. Best in the games at their given times, and put up respectable numbers from the same tees. Move them up 500 yards and I would say they both finish a lot higher and make the cut. So you have to figure the average LPGA pro might struggle even from up 500 yards in that event, and definitely finish towards the back from the Tour tees. But a 4 handicapper would be way in the back.

 

I think your average LPGA pro waxes a four, puts up a good fight with a true scratch golfer, and loses more than not to a plus handicap, regardless of tees

[SHIVAN]

A US 4 Handicapper would be doing well to break 80 4 rounds in a row, week after week, never mind beating anyone else.

 

In the grand scheme of things a typical 4 isn't that good at the game of golf.

 

Don't think they could keep up pace with the girls making money out of the game.

 

I think you'd have to analyze their anti-cap and see what the other 10 scores were, but we definitely agree that a US 4 index is not beating an average LPGA Touring pro.

[North Texas]

A good high school golfer in FL is about the same as an LPGA tour player fighting to keep her card, say 75-100 on money list. The LPGA player would finish around 30-40th in the boys junior, maybe.

 

I respect what you do immensely but I have never read such an ignorant comment. I really hope this is laced with sarcasm that I'm missing.

 

Please explain how it is ignorant. The cut line in 13-15 age group was +1 from 6700 yards. The 16-18 year old kids played from 7100 yards and the winner was -12. The LPGA player ranked 75-100 using the scoring averages (averages over 72 but less than 73) from the shorter and easier courses they play would have missed the cut in both age groups. If we account for the yardage differences there's no chance the 75th-100th ranked woman would have made the cut.

 

I know a LPGA player that is ranked right in that range and have played with her and seen her play plenty of times. She's played with me and some mini tour players from 6900 yards and she shoots respectable scores. But the high school team that practices at that same course, who had all 5 players shoot par or better in multiple tournaments, would have the same or better averages out there. My statement is the opposite of ignorant. It's based of real world experience and factual stats.

 

Then I've got to believe that these high school kids handicaps are definitely better than a 4, which is where this discussion started. The "target" has been moved so many times in this discussion and I'm only on page 3.

[2bGood]

Sure, you're stating facts, but why do these discussions always just happen to turn into "this amateur man/junior/high schooler would beat an LPGA player"?

 

 

 

How long have you been on the wrx? These threads pop up of all kinds - would +1 cap beat a "PGA pro if the pro could not hit a driver", "would 4 cap beat a pro if they could play 4 balls and pick the best one on each shot", "How would a club champion do on the web.com tour?" etc etc etc. This is not specific to the LPGA, the board just enjoys comparing how good one group of golfers is to another.

 

It is a discussion board and many different hypotheticals are discussed at great length.

 

I can assure you Jordan Speith has had for more insulting things said about him, then all LPGA players combined.

[br61]

I see too many of these threads. 4 handicapper beating LPGA player, nope. Maybe 1% chance.

 

But against a +4 player, maybe more often. I'm a +2 and I know many of those LPGA players will smoke me under competitive conditions on same tees. To some of you guys, keep those egos under control.

[Hawkeye77]

When all is flushed out these are the elite high schoolers, not your average "good" high school player, so the original claim was overstated. Having said that, there are clearly some high school boys playing at a very high level in Florida and elsewhere who could beat many lower ranked LPGA players and maybe some better players any given day. Not sure that's too surprising and I can't figure out why it matters.

 

Average isn't good. And I didn't overstate anything. I made it clear what I considered good, 30-40th in state junior is good. Certainly not great. There are kids who finish top 10 who don't get any scholarship offers and end up playing D3 golf. There are kids that finish 30-40th that won't play college golf at all. The top junior in FL could beat Lydia Ko and make cuts in PGA Tour events.

 

I didn't say just average, I said average good, meaning what would generally be considered a good high school player. You have already made it clear you are talking about an event for the best of the best. In the context of all high school boys in Florida these aren't just "good" high school golfers, they are elite. You painted with too broad a brush, it happens. No reason to keep pounding on it. Your definition of "good" is a much higher standard - ok.

 

Beyond that, the scores speak for themselves and nobody is arguing that certain high school players out there (not just from Florida) can beat certain LPGA players, clearly they can.

[iteachgolf]

When all is flushed out these are the elite high schoolers, not your average "good" high school player, so the original claim was overstated. Having said that, there are clearly some high school boys playing at a very high level in Florida and elsewhere who could beat many lower ranked LPGA players and maybe some better players any given day. Not sure that's too surprising and I can't figure out why it matters.

 

Average isn't good. And I didn't overstate anything. I made it clear what I considered good, 30-40th in state junior is good. Certainly not great. There are kids who finish top 10 who don't get any scholarship offers and end up playing D3 golf. There are kids that finish 30-40th that won't play college golf at all. The top junior in FL could beat Lydia Ko and make cuts in PGA Tour events.

 

I didn't say just average, I said average good, meaning what would generally be considered a good high school player. You have already made it clear you are talking about an event for the best of the best. In the context of all high school boys in Florida these aren't just "good" high school golfers, they are elite. You painted with too broad a brush, it happens. No reason to keep pounding on it. Your definition of "good" is a much higher standard - ok.

 

Beyond that, the scores speak for themselves and nobody is arguing that certain high school players out there (not just from Florida) can beat certain LPGA players, clearly they can.

 

How did I paint with too broad of a brush when I defined EXACTLY what I meant and that finishing 30-40th in the state junior is good but not great? Wasn't broad at all, the opposite in fact, it was extremely specific. They aren't elite. The kids shooting double digits under par are elite. Btw look at the other names I posted who are AVERAGING -6 differentials in tournament play. They didn't play in the event. I don't think anyone in the top 10 in FL played in the event. So hardly the best of the best. Just like many of the top juniors in FL don't play high school golf and only play nationally ranked events. The kids finishing middle of the pack are just that, middle of the pack. Which is good not great. Just like I dont consider a 4 handicap to be a great golfer.

 

I don't see how I could have been more specific.

[Shilgy]

This thread hurts my head. How do people not understand math at such a remedial level? It's not opinion, it's math.

 

The top 10 women in the world are +3 handicaps if rated equally from the men's tees. I'm basing this on actual scores vs course rating/slope.

The women from 75-100 in the world are between 0-1 handicaps. Again based on scoring averages vs course rating/slope

 

So in order for a man to be competitive with a woman with those handicaps, he would have to have the same handicap but it would have to be a travelling-tournament-only handicap.

 

A club 4 handicap? Not even worth discussing. But a guy that travels and keeps only a tourney cap that hovers around 0 would be competitive with an LPGA player ranking 75-100.

 

This isn't my opinion. It's math. That's the whole reason we have the handicap system. Of course the system only works if there's integrity in keeping accurate scores. That's why only tournament scores can be used if this discussion is to have value.

 

As far as the whole "under pressure/in front of crowds/under the lights" argument goes, half of the top Ladies are basically kids when they first get out on tour. They are not some freaks that eat pressure for breakfast. They are just kids that handle pressure well. Same as the boys that make cuts on the PGA tour as teenagers. The pressure that some of these kids are subjected to is enormous. You either relish in it or you don't. The players (men or women) that can shoot double digits under par in national events are all the same in my eyes as to the ability do deal with "pressure."

 

Again, that's why only tournament scores count.

I think you are comparing scoring average to handicap. Should be top half of scores to make the handicap which means they would be about 2-3 strokes better than that as a cap.

[Shilgy]

I see too many of these threads. 4 handicapper beating LPGA player, nope. Maybe 1% chance.

 

But against a +4 player, maybe more often. I'm a +2 and I know many of those LPGA players will smoke me under competitive conditions on same tees. To some of you guys, keep those egos under control.

Thank you-I was going to reply to another post but this will do fine. How in the worls do some think a 4 capper-or a scratch male-has a chance? Typical scratch will average about 3 over the rating. Do you see the average lady doing that?

Iteach-you mentioned earlier a tournament only +2 cap beating the women. I would say 50-50 on that bet. But...the +2 tournament only player would probably be a +4 or +5 if he posted his more casual rounds as well. A woman that shoots even par-even with the male rating-as a stroke average would be a +2 or +3 when taking the top half of scores.

[North Texas]

True story and you can google it if you don't believe me.

 

A 14 year old high school GIRL once beat 47 PGA tour players in a tournament and tied 15 other players!

 

Not a LPGA player but a high school girl. And not a 4 handicapper but PGA tour players including some top name players.

[iteachgolf]

I see too many of these threads. 4 handicapper beating LPGA player, nope. Maybe 1% chance.

 

But against a +4 player, maybe more often. I'm a +2 and I know many of those LPGA players will smoke me under competitive conditions on same tees. To some of you guys, keep those egos under control.

Thank you-I was going to reply to another post but this will do fine. How in the worls do some think a 4 capper-or a scratch male-has a chance? Typical scratch will average about 3 over the rating. Do you see the average lady doing that?

Iteach-you mentioned earlier a tournament only +2 cap beating the women. I would say 50-50 on that bet. But...the +2 tournament only player would probably be a +4 or +5 if he posted his more casual rounds as well. A woman that shoots even par-even with the male rating-as a stroke average would be a +2 or +3 when taking the top half of scores.

 

I also told you Ived watched scratch golfers beat LPGA tour players. A tournament +2 would would beat them way more often than 50/50. And no she wouldn't be a + 2 or 3. The courses average a rating of around 71.5 and the 100th ranked scoring average is nearly 73. Scratch golfer absolutely has a chance and probably about a 30-40% chance.

[wobgon]

LPGA pros are some of the best short game players and putters in the world. Distance doesn't matter on that tour as much as PGA. They can get the ball up and down like nobody else and for that reason alone would destroy a 4 handicapper because those are the type that have their game somewhat together but can't get the ball in the hole quick enough

 

No they can't get the ball up and down like nobody else.......LPGA chipping and putting is not as good as PGA tour. Just a fact.

BS, the low capper ladies i know have such incredible low speed feel. anything 50 yards and in is up and down.

They do not get the ball up and down like nobody else....You can say BS all you want.......PGA players have better short games....Pretty well known fact.

[DavePelz4]

True story and you can google it if you don't believe me.

 

A 14 year old high school GIRL once beat 47 PGA tour players in a tournament and tied 15 other players!

 

Not a LPGA player but a high school girl. And not a 4 handicapper but PGA tour players including some top name players.

 

And she went Wie, Wie, Wie all the way home.

[iteachgolf]

True story and you can google it if you don't believe me.

 

A 14 year old high school GIRL once beat 47 PGA tour players in a tournament and tied 15 other players!

 

Not a LPGA player but a high school girl. And not a 4 handicapper but PGA tour players including some top name players.

 

That high school girl was the number 3 ranked woman in the world with a 2nd place finish in 4 LPGA majors, and yes they rank amateurs that play LPGA events. Far cry from the 100th ranked women who has an average 5 strokes higher per round.

 

Brittany Lincicome played in a Hooters winter series event when she was one of the top women in the world and the longest. She missed the cut by 7 and was 18 shots behind the leader after 36 holes.

[wobgon]

A good high school golfer in FL is about the same as an LPGA tour player fighting to keep her card, say 75-100 on money list. The LPGA player would finish around 30-40th in the boys junior, maybe.

 

I respect what you do immensely but I have never read such an ignorant comment. I really hope this is laced with sarcasm that I'm missing.

 

Please explain how it is ignorant. The cut line in 13-15 age group was +1 from 6700 yards. The 16-18 year old kids played from 7100 yards and the winner was -12. The LPGA player ranked 75-100 using the scoring averages (averages over 72 but less than 73) from the shorter and easier courses they play would have missed the cut in both age groups. If we account for the yardage differences there's no chance the 75th-100th ranked woman would have made the cut.

 

I know a LPGA player that is ranked right in that range and have played with her and seen her play plenty of times. She's played with me and some mini tour players from 6900 yards and she shoots respectable scores. But the high school team that practices at that same course, who had all 5 players shoot par or better in multiple tournaments, would have the same or better averages out there. My statement is the opposite of ignorant. It's based of real world experience and factual stats.

 

Then I've got to believe that these high school kids handicaps are definitely better than a 4, which is where this discussion started. The "target" has been moved so many times in this discussion and I'm only on page 3.

That's because everyone agrees that the lpga player would beat the 4 capper....that wouldn't make a very interesting thread.

[McCann1]

LPGA pros are some of the best short game players and putters in the world. Distance doesn't matter on that tour as much as PGA. They can get the ball up and down like nobody else and for that reason alone would destroy a 4 handicapper because those are the type that have their game somewhat together but can't get the ball in the hole quick enough

 

No they can't get the ball up and down like nobody else.......LPGA chipping and putting is not as good as PGA tour. Just a fact.

BS, the low capper ladies i know have such incredible low speed feel. anything 50 yards and in is up and down.

They do not get the ball up and down like nobody else....You can say BS all you want.......PGA players have better short games....Pretty well known fact.

PGA players also get the ball up and down like nobody else. Combined LPGA and PGA they are not a big group. They are both very good

[McCann1]

A 4~ handicap will not beat me, 99/100 times from the mens' tourney blues(6500-6800), for money. Have a nice day :) Maddie

Well if you say it, it has to be true......I do not live far from you.....I can bring a four.....Want to set it up?

I would like to attend that. I'm not sure you're too familiar with Maddie. 1.) she can play and 2.) (gasp) she's a woman. Women can be better than men it's not set in stone that a guy with a worse handicap than a woman can somehow be better when having a match against said woman

[wobgon]

LPGA pros are some of the best short game players and putters in the world. Distance doesn't matter on that tour as much as PGA. They can get the ball up and down like nobody else and for that reason alone would destroy a 4 handicapper because those are the type that have their game somewhat together but can't get the ball in the hole quick enough

 

No they can't get the ball up and down like nobody else.......LPGA chipping and putting is not as good as PGA tour. Just a fact.

BS, the low capper ladies i know have such incredible low speed feel. anything 50 yards and in is up and down.

They do not get the ball up and down like nobody else....You can say BS all you want.......PGA players have better short games....Pretty well known fact.

PGA players also get the ball up and down like nobody else. Combined LPGA and PGA they are not a big group. They are both very good

Okay. Agreed.....Everyone gets the ball up and down like nobody else.

[wobgon]

A 4~ handicap will not beat me, 99/100 times from the mens' tourney blues(6500-6800), for money. Have a nice day :) Maddie

Well if you say it, it has to be true......I do not live far from you.....I can bring a four.....Want to set it up?

I would like to attend that. I'm not sure you're too familiar with Maddie. 1.) she can play and 2.) (gasp) she's a woman. Women can be better than men it's not set in stone that a guy with a worse handicap than a woman can somehow be better when having a match against said woman

I am probably more familiar with her and those near to her than you are......Why do you keep making ridiculous statements. Of course women can beat men.....Who would possibly not know that.....This is not a children's forum.

[Forged4ever]

S***, I'D beat a 4- like a b****, all day every day and by the time we'd hit 13-14, he'd be my.........

 

Ah, forget it, lol.

 

Hell, even though they are allowed, absolutely no 4-'s Play in our Inter-Club swats.

 

We had one 3- from Oakmont who is a former Pro who had his Tour card for 2 years in the 80's and he Plants it twice a month in the swats and that's it. He'll hit 15-20 balls pre-round and go Play.

 

Other than him, all of em are basically 1-/scratch and to +5.5 and most of the 1-/scratches are from Oakmont or our place and former Pros or elite Ams who basically put the game on the back burners for jobs, family and life.

 

Most of the adult male 4-'s that I saw lacked the greatest component of a Plus/Pro's game-

 

THE MENTAL GAME

 

I'll let Maddie speak to the LPGA stuff if she wants to as we both have Played with a few.

 

Stay well my Friends :)

 

My Best,

RP

[isaacbm]

This thread hurts my head. How do people not understand math at such a remedial level? It's not opinion, it's math.

 

The top 10 women in the world are +3 handicaps if rated equally from the men's tees. I'm basing this on actual scores vs course rating/slope.

The women from 75-100 in the world are between 0-1 handicaps. Again based on scoring averages vs course rating/slope

 

So in order for a man to be competitive with a woman with those handicaps, he would have to have the same handicap but it would have to be a travelling-tournament-only handicap.

 

A club 4 handicap? Not even worth discussing. But a guy that travels and keeps only a tourney cap that hovers around 0 would be competitive with an LPGA player ranking 75-100.

 

This isn't my opinion. It's math. That's the whole reason we have the handicap system. Of course the system only works if there's integrity in keeping accurate scores. That's why only tournament scores can be used if this discussion is to have value.

 

As far as the whole "under pressure/in front of crowds/under the lights" argument goes, half of the top Ladies are basically kids when they first get out on tour. They are not some freaks that eat pressure for breakfast. They are just kids that handle pressure well. Same as the boys that make cuts on the PGA tour as teenagers. The pressure that some of these kids are subjected to is enormous. You either relish in it or you don't. The players (men or women) that can shoot double digits under par in national events are all the same in my eyes as to the ability do deal with "pressure."

 

Again, that's why only tournament scores count.

I think you are comparing scoring average to handicap. Should be top half of scores to make the handicap which means they would be about 2-3 strokes better than that as a cap.

 

No I didn't. The average course rating from the LPGA Tees is 69.5-71/ sloped 118-124 The average score of the top 10 women in the world is a fraction over 70. And the 90th ranked LPGA player has a scoring average of 72.45.

 

And believe me I respect the women. I've played with 4 major champions on the LPGA Tour. Under no delusion that they aren't great players. But math is math.

[bogey_bakes]

A 4~ handicap will not beat me, 99/100 times from the mens' tourney blues(6500-6800), for money. Have a nice day :) Maddie

 

This is probably my favorite post. Ever.