Can a 4-handicap man beat an LPGA pro?

[Obee]

The answer to the original question is no -- especially if the course is even remotely difficult.

 

If the course is long and flat and fairly easy (picture a 7,000 yard muni with not a lot of trouble) then the answer is: the 4-handicap male might win every once in a great while if the female pro is putts horribly.

[BMC]

If the man with the 4 cap played most of his rounds from 6900 yards he'd be closer to scratch on an average LPGA course setup.

 

He might win one out of four rounds against an average LPGA Tour player, but only if they were not playing in front of a gallery.

 

Wait. So a player who plays most of his rounds at 6900 yards can't be a 4? wtf?!

Yes, his 4 handicap would most likely down if he started playing tees around 6500 (avg LPGA length) vs. his normal 6900. There's all kind of 4 handicaps. Seniors who play at 5200 yards can be a 4.

[iteachgolf]

 

108 rounds of golf and only 13 total under par. 6700 not the 8000 they usually play too. Must have been an off day for all those Florida high school boys who would win on the LPGA tour without breaking a sweat.

 

That's not the state junior. The best players in the state only play the big events. Nobody said they'd win anything. I said they'd be as good or better than the 75th-100th ranked player. Btw just so you know that the 75th-100th person in any event on LPGA tour MISSES THE CUT.

 

Again the 50th ranked junior has a tournament differential average of -0.8.

 

So, you're cherry picking one tournament to draw the conclusion the top male HS in Florida are as good as the 75-100 best females in the world? I know, you're not. I'll take the 100 woman against the #1 Florida hs boy any day of the week. That said, I'll agree to disagree. Have a wonderful night iteach.

 

No I chose the tournament that was most likely to have all top kids in 1 event. You know the logical choice. Top kid in FL is a tournament +6 (tournament average differential of -5.8) and would absolutely destroy the 100th ranked LPGA player. It'd be a joke.

[b.helts]

If the man with the 4 cap played most of his rounds from 6900 yards he'd be closer to scratch on an average LPGA course setup.

 

He might win one out of four rounds against an average LPGA Tour player, but only if they were not playing in front of a gallery.

 

Wait. So a player who plays most of his rounds at 6900 yards can't be a 4? wtf?!

Yes, his 4 handicap would most likely down if he started playing tees around 6500 (avg LPGA length) vs. his normal 6900. There's all kind of 4 handicaps. Seniors who play at 5200 yards can be a 4.

 

Sure. But you said a 4 that plays a shorter course would be closer to scratch on a longer course and that is simply not true. It could be true, but is not a fact.

[wobgon]

The disrespect to me comes from comparing the two games. Women sports will never be as deep as the men's side for various / obvious reasons. I could beat the hell out of some guys in a fight just as they would me. I would however say as a female , playing any sport with guys makes you better. It is just how it is. That being said , many men are sexist still when it comes to these things. I see it everywhere we go. I honestly see it worse on the club level.

As many women are sexist.

[EKELLY]

This is all quite funny. Obviously most guys on here have never played with anybody good, much less a D1 college player, mini-tour player, or Tour Pro.....Probably 95% of the golfers out there have no idea how good a scratch player is, because they've never seen one........There aren't many out there.......Playing relative tee lengths, which puts approximately the same irons into the greens, there aren't many golfers out there that would beat a Tour player......And you guys have missed the most important FACTOR!!.........MOST 4 handicappers wouldn't come close to their handicap against an LPGA star in a match...Or haven't any of you competed before?......3rd Flight in the club championship doesn't count................ You can add 2-3 shots at least to a guys handicap as he steps onto the first tee of a tournament......LOL

 

Nobody said a 4 handicap would beat them. The 50th ranked junior in FL is easily a +3. He's a tournament +1 counting ALL his tournament scores.

 

I've taught plenty of players on all major tours of both sexes. Along with multiple NCAA champions, a USGA champion and a number of state champions. I've got a pretty good grasp of how good all of the respective golfers are.

I know what you mean.....This is entertainment for me.........I was a professional athlete for 16 years.......I do know about juniors and competition......I have a few rings.......LOL

[wobgon]

It comes down to this. Put and LPGA pro and X handicap at 150 yards in the middle of the fairway on every hole. Who do you think shoots a lower score? I'm no rocket scientist but my money would be on the LPGA pro

Why does it come down to that?

[BMC]

If the man with the 4 cap played most of his rounds from 6900 yards he'd be closer to scratch on an average LPGA course setup.

 

He might win one out of four rounds against an average LPGA Tour player, but only if they were not playing in front of a gallery.

 

Wait. So a player who plays most of his rounds at 6900 yards can't be a 4? wtf?!

Yes, his 4 handicap would most likely down if he started playing tees around 6500 (avg LPGA length) vs. his normal 6900. There's all kind of 4 handicaps. Seniors who play at 5200 yards can be a 4.

 

Sure. But you said a 4 that plays a shorter course would be closer to scratch on a longer course and that is simply not true. It could be true, but is not a fact.

 

He'd likely be lower than a 4 on a 6500 course vs. his normal rounds at 6900.

[wobgon]

A good high school golfer in FL is about the same as an LPGA tour player fighting to keep her card, say 75-100 on money list. The LPGA player would finish around 30-40th in the boys junior, maybe.

 

I respect what you do immensely but I have never read such an ignorant comment. I really hope this is laced with sarcasm that I'm missing.

 

I'd like to see stats to back this up. Not even being snarky, it just didn't sound right to me, having witnessed a high school state tournament and an LPGA tournament, though obviously my sample size is small.

 

I just checked the 2015-16 FHSAA State Series Golf Results and the 40th ranked boys junior scored a +16 (84 & 76) and the #100 ranked LPGA player, Celine Herbin, has these recent rounds:

 

 

Didn't say high school championship, as there are many levels of high schools from A to AAAAA. I'm talking Florida State Boys Junior.

 

 

Michael Mattiace has a tournament average close to the 100th ranked LPGA tour player, from courses 600-700 yards longer and is ranked 438th in the US and outside the top 50 in FL

 

I don't care about the distance differences, you keep mentioning those - males are stronger, this is a physiological fact. It's unequal to compare them. My cousin can dunk a basketball, does that mean he's better than Diana Taurasi? No.

 

Before I even look at this stats any further, Michael Mattiace came in T18...you said the hypothetical tour player would place 40th, "maybe." You also said a "good" HS golfer would be the 100th ranked LPGA player, but according to you, Michael Mattiace is ranked in the top 50 in the entire state, which is better than "good." So which is it?

You seem to want to compare women to men without comparing women to men.....

[ksgolfcoach]

 

108 rounds of golf and only 13 total under par. 6700 not the 8000 they usually play too. Must have been an off day for all those Florida high school boys who would win on the LPGA tour without breaking a sweat.

 

That's not the state junior. The best players in the state only play the big events. Nobody said they'd win anything. I said they'd be as good or better than the 75th-100th ranked player. Btw just so you know that the 75th-100th person in any event on LPGA tour MISSES THE CUT.

 

Again the 50th ranked junior has a tournament differential average of -0.8.

 

So, you're cherry picking one tournament to draw the conclusion the top male HS in Florida are as good as the 75-100 best females in the world? I know, you're not. I'll take the 100 woman against the #1 Florida hs boy any day of the week. That said, I'll agree to disagree. Have a wonderful night iteach.

 

I'm guessing without looking it up but Eugene Hong is probably the top player in FL and he's a 2018 grad. He would beat the 100th ranked girl on the lpga every single time they teed it up from any distance and it wouldn't even be that close

[CallawayLefty]

I base this on the one LPGA tournament I attended in person, the 2015 Coates at Golden Ocala:

 

1) The course wasn't easy. It was tight, the greens were lightning fast, and the pins were relatively tucked.

 

2) The tees weren't all the way back, but they weren't all the way up. Many were close to the tips. None were close to the "whites."

 

3) I am a scratch golfer and routinely play with scratch golfers. I was there on a post cut day, but I think my fellow scratch players would have been hard pressed to finish better than the bottom 10 or maybe 20.

 

4). There were thousands of people in attendance. I haven't been to other ones but this was one was attended and set up like a real event. Tournament pressure was most certainly present.

 

5) I was shocked at how good they were. I don't know that I ever was so naive as to think a 4 handicap could beat them, but they were really, really good. Do I think good amateur, high school and college male players could compete/beat them - sure. But those guys are also really good so that's not saying much.

 

6) it's ridiculous to think a 4 handicap is going to start shooting under par on the regular just by playing from 6,500 yards. 4 handicaps should break par like once in a decade.

[b.helts]

If the man with the 4 cap played most of his rounds from 6900 yards he'd be closer to scratch on an average LPGA course setup.

 

He might win one out of four rounds against an average LPGA Tour player, but only if they were not playing in front of a gallery.

 

Wait. So a player who plays most of his rounds at 6900 yards can't be a 4? wtf?!

Yes, his 4 handicap would most likely down if he started playing tees around 6500 (avg LPGA length) vs. his normal 6900. There's all kind of 4 handicaps. Seniors who play at 5200 yards can be a 4.

 

Sure. But you said a 4 that plays a shorter course would be closer to scratch on a longer course and that is simply not true. It could be true, but is not a fact.

 

He'd likely be lower than a 4 on a 6500 course vs. his normal rounds at 6900.

 

And also likely be lower than a four on a 6900 yard course vs his normal 6500?

[wobgon]

I'd call him good not great. I gave my definition. I said that the 100th ranked player would finish 30-40th in state junior. That'd require +5 from 7100 yards. The distance differences are 100% eel even as they are shooting the same scores from further back which makes them better. And there's ZERO chance the 16 year old I teach who finished 31st and is ranked iirc 52nd in the state is stronger than the average LPGA player. He is 5'10 and 125lbs soaking wet.

 

You obviously don't understand the basic logic I'm using. For the 100th LPGA player to finish 30-40th she'd have to shoot 74-74-74 from 7100 yards. If she barely averages less than 73 from 6,400 yards no way she would average 74 from 700 yards further back.

 

Extreme condescension aside, your argument relies on the huge assumption that a high school tournament golf is equivalent to a worldwide professional golf tour. It's laughable. You're also oversimplifying scoring and yardages. It's not a simple equation based on a formula, as if scoring is proportional per yard, and x number of extra yards means x number of extra strokes.

 

I also don't care what some high school kid you teach weighs. Anecdotal evidence is fun! Are you honestly arguing that boys/mens bodies aren't stronger and more suited to a driving the ball in a golf swing?

 

Next time someone wonders why women don't post here, I'm going to point them to this thread.

Why do you continue to make the point of those you are debating against......The fact that men are stronger is a big part of the equation....If you are going to compare, you must take this into consideration.......You can't say i beat you in a race, but it does not count because my legs are longer than yours.....To compare, you must compare in all aspects.

[putting_fore_dough]

This thread is silly. A 4 handicap cannot sniff an LPGA player....

[pinhigh27]

jordan spieth got a t16 on the pga tour when he was a junior in high school. but yeah he'd totally struggle with someone struggling to keep their card on lpga tour.

[northgolf]

I'm confused, just what do we mean by beat and with what implement?

[CallawayLefty]

jordan spieth got a t16 on the pga tour when he was a junior in high school. but yeah he'd totally struggle with someone struggling to keep their card on lpga tour.

 

Patrick Cantlay shot 60 on the tour when he was like 19 and he couldn't make a cut on the golf channel am tour now. Is your point really that the #2 male golfer on the planet is better than LPGA players? Because I don't think anyone is debating that.

[wobgon]

I base this on the one LPGA tournament I attended in person, the 2015 Coates at Golden Ocala:

 

1) The course wasn't easy. It was tight, the greens were lightning fast, and the pins were relatively tucked.

 

2) The tees weren't all the way back, but they weren't all the way up. Many were close to the tips. None were close to the "whites."

 

3) I am a scratch golfer and routinely play with scratch golfers. I was there on a post cut day, but I think my fellow scratch players would have been hard pressed to finish better than the bottom 10 or maybe 20.

 

4). There were thousands of people in attendance. I haven't been to other ones but this was one was attended and set up like a real event. Tournament pressure was most certainly present.

 

5) I was shocked at how good they were. I don't know that I ever was so naive as to think a 4 handicap could beat them, but they were really, really good. Do I think good amateur, high school and college male players could compete/beat them - sure. But those guys are also really good so that's not saying much.

 

6) it's ridiculous to think a 4 handicap is going to start shooting under par on the regular just by playing from 6,500 yards. 4 handicaps should break par like once in a decade.

You were ok till #6.........By the way, almost everyone in this thread knows that the lpga player would beat the 4 capper........No one seems to be arguing that.

[wobgon]

This thread is silly. A 4 handicap cannot sniff an LPGA player....

Who is saying he would?

[iteachgolf]

 

108 rounds of golf and only 13 total under par. 6700 not the 8000 they usually play too. Must have been an off day for all those Florida high school boys who would win on the LPGA tour without breaking a sweat.

 

That's not the state junior. The best players in the state only play the big events. Nobody said they'd win anything. I said they'd be as good or better than the 75th-100th ranked player. Btw just so you know that the 75th-100th person in any event on LPGA tour MISSES THE CUT.

 

Again the 50th ranked junior has a tournament differential average of -0.8.

 

So, you're cherry picking one tournament to draw the conclusion the top male HS in Florida are as good as the 75-100 best females in the world? I know, you're not. I'll take the 100 woman against the #1 Florida hs boy any day of the week. That said, I'll agree to disagree. Have a wonderful night iteach.

 

I'm guessing without looking it up but Eugene Hong is probably the top player in FL and he's a 2018 grad. He would beat the 100th ranked girl on the lpga every single time they teed it up from any distance and it wouldn't even be that close

 

He was #1 in the world. For those that need some perspective here are some results from major world ranked events. Look at the yardage they are playing and the course rating and slope. And you'll also notice they're are 3 kids from Florida in the top 3 of each event.

 

[CallawayLefty]

I base this on the one LPGA tournament I attended in person, the 2015 Coates at Golden Ocala:

 

1) The course wasn't easy. It was tight, the greens were lightning fast, and the pins were relatively tucked.

 

2) The tees weren't all the way back, but they weren't all the way up. Many were close to the tips. None were close to the "whites."

 

3) I am a scratch golfer and routinely play with scratch golfers. I was there on a post cut day, but I think my fellow scratch players would have been hard pressed to finish better than the bottom 10 or maybe 20.

 

4). There were thousands of people in attendance. I haven't been to other ones but this was one was attended and set up like a real event. Tournament pressure was most certainly present.

 

5) I was shocked at how good they were. I don't know that I ever was so naive as to think a 4 handicap could beat them, but they were really, really good. Do I think good amateur, high school and college male players could compete/beat them - sure. But those guys are also really good so that's not saying much.

 

6) it's ridiculous to think a 4 handicap is going to start shooting under par on the regular just by playing from 6,500 yards. 4 handicaps should break par like once in a decade.

You were ok till #6.........By the way, almost everyone in this thread knows that the lpga player would beat the 4 capper........No one seems to be arguing that.

 

I was being serious. I don't know many 4 handicaps that break par and moving them up 1 box isn't going to change that.

[wobgon]

I base this on the one LPGA tournament I attended in person, the 2015 Coates at Golden Ocala:

 

1) The course wasn't easy. It was tight, the greens were lightning fast, and the pins were relatively tucked.

 

2) The tees weren't all the way back, but they weren't all the way up. Many were close to the tips. None were close to the "whites."

 

3) I am a scratch golfer and routinely play with scratch golfers. I was there on a post cut day, but I think my fellow scratch players would have been hard pressed to finish better than the bottom 10 or maybe 20.

 

4). There were thousands of people in attendance. I haven't been to other ones but this was one was attended and set up like a real event. Tournament pressure was most certainly present.

 

5) I was shocked at how good they were. I don't know that I ever was so naive as to think a 4 handicap could beat them, but they were really, really good. Do I think good amateur, high school and college male players could compete/beat them - sure. But those guys are also really good so that's not saying much.

 

6) it's ridiculous to think a 4 handicap is going to start shooting under par on the regular just by playing from 6,500 yards. 4 handicaps should break par like once in a decade.

You were ok till #6.........By the way, almost everyone in this thread knows that the lpga player would beat the 4 capper........No one seems to be arguing that.

 

I was being serious. I don't know many 4 handicaps that break par and moving them up 1 box isn't going to change that.

In a decade? You play with different 4 cappers than i do........Would they beat lpga players no, but i do agree with many in this thread about many,many,many top ams, and even juniors beating them.

[iteachgolf]

jordan spieth got a t16 on the pga tour when he was a junior in high school. but yeah he'd totally struggle with someone struggling to keep their card on lpga tour.

 

Patrick Cantlay shot 60 on the tour when he was like 19 and he couldn't make a cut on the golf channel am tour now. Is your point really that the #2 male golfer on the planet is better than LPGA players? Because I don't think anyone is debating that.

 

Cantlay made it to sectionals of US Open qualifying last year and still is on a medical from back surgery he had in 2014. He can still play very good golf. Btw he missed qualifying for the US Open by a shot

 

http://www.ghintpp.com/scga/TPPOnlineScoring/ResultsStroke.aspx?id=1313

[northgolf]

 

I was being serious. I don't know many 4 handicaps that break par and moving them up 1 box isn't going to change that.

 

I think the question was moving the box one back.

[b.helts]

Generally course ratings in the 70-72 range.

 

I think this was for the women playing generally in the 6400 yard range, yes? Is that the men's rating or the women's rating?

[CallawayLefty]

jordan spieth got a t16 on the pga tour when he was a junior in high school. but yeah he'd totally struggle with someone struggling to keep their card on lpga tour.

 

Patrick Cantlay shot 60 on the tour when he was like 19 and he couldn't make a cut on the golf channel am tour now. Is your point really that the #2 male golfer on the planet is better than LPGA players? Because I don't think anyone is debating that.

 

Cantlay made t to sectionals of US Open qualifying last year and still is on a medical from back surgery he had in 2014. He can still play very good golf.

 

I know I know. I was just trying to be clever. The point was that jordan spieth was still jordan spieth 6 years ago so saying he was good when he was 16 isn't exactly a revelation. But being good when you're 16 also doesn't mean that you'll necessarily end up being good enough to beat pro golfers in the future - man or woman. It's a really different ball of wax at that level.

[iteachgolf]

Generally course ratings in the 70-72 range.

 

I think this was for the women playing generally in the 6400 yard range, yes? Is that the men's rating or the women's rating?

 

The men's rating of course. Since we are comparing differentials of boys form similar yardage. Apples to apples comparison.

[iteachgolf]

jordan spieth got a t16 on the pga tour when he was a junior in high school. but yeah he'd totally struggle with someone struggling to keep their card on lpga tour.

 

Patrick Cantlay shot 60 on the tour when he was like 19 and he couldn't make a cut on the golf channel am tour now. Is your point really that the #2 male golfer on the planet is better than LPGA players? Because I don't think anyone is debating that.

 

Cantlay made t to sectionals of US Open qualifying last year and still is on a medical from back surgery he had in 2014. He can still play very good golf.

 

I know I know. I was just trying to be clever. The point was that jordan spieth was still jordan spieth 6 years ago so saying he was good when he was 16 isn't exactly a revelation. But being good when you're 16 also doesn't mean that you'll necessarily end up being good enough to beat pro golfers in the future - man or woman. It's a really different ball of wax at that level.

 

Cantlay won on the Web.com tour to earn his PGA Tour card. In only 13 career events he has a win and two 2nd place finishes one of which was lost in a playoff. The kid was plenty good enough. He fractured his spine and had to get surgery and still hasn't recovered

[2bGood]

What a dumb debate. Who care where you draw the line. a 4 cap would not normally beat an LPGA player, and elite male golfer would normally beat an LPGA player - somewhere between the two there is a line, but who cares precisely where it is.

 

The best men are better than the best women when it come to golf. No one can argue about that. The best women are still really really really good. No one can argue that.

[b.helts]

Generally course ratings in the 70-72 range.

 

I think this was for the women playing generally in the 6400 yard range, yes? Is that the men's rating or the women's rating?

 

The men's rating of course. Since we are comparing differentials of boys form similar yardage. Apples to apples comparison.

 

LOL!! Apples to apples.