Mickelson & his Ping Eye2 Wedges (topics merged)

[JLTES]

[quote name='PGA_AllTheWay' date='25 January 2010 - 07:03 PM' timestamp='1264467794' post='2203924']
I'm calling a huge BS on this topic. Phil takes almost all the credit for developing the new jaws wedges with Roger, he has a custom grind with special conforming grooves. I've put clubs in his bag and he will never stray from Callaway wedges as long as Roger is there period.
[/quote]

wrong, he has the Eye2 in the bag.......

[OnOff]

Seems like Phil is looking at this subject with the proper perspective.

[quote]The Pings may or may not see time in his golf bag on Thursday. He's going to take some temperatures, see how the use of these clubs, grandfathered into the new groove rule, is going down among other pros, and whether he's comfortable going forward with them. He confessed that after seeing stories from the Sony Open about John Daly using them, he went down to his garage. "I've got a boatload of them" he said. "Pitching wedges, sand wedges, lob wedges. I've got whole sets."

[url="http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-tours-news/2010-01/golf_mickelson_rosaforte_0125"]http://www.golfdiges..._rosaforte_0125[/url][/quote]

[JOHN GOLIA]

Just my 2 cents for what its worth. If you are going to play with square grooves
from the old Ping eye 2 days whats the difference with every company having square
grooves today. It should be all the same. Stupid stupid stupid.
Square grooves or no square grooves. Make up your mind PGA & R&A.

[doof_dizzler]

They're totally ok for use on tour. Specifically allowed. Playing with them is an acceptable way of using the rules to your benefit, in the same way a coach can call a time-out to "ice" a free throw shooter, even though he's not discussing any strategy, or calling for a measurement of an opposing player's stick in a hockey game. Some people may not like such tactics/strategy, and are entitled to not like it, but it's an acceptable and permitted part of the game.

[xamilo]

[quote name='elrey23' date='25 January 2010 - 06:29 PM' timestamp='1264465786' post='2203865']
The wedges are legal, period. People can say it's against the spirit of the game, blah blah blah but the bottom line is that the wedges are legal for play. If he can stand to look down at them then I say it's all good.
[/quote]

This is exactly the point. You can't cheat if you're following the rules, and ANY PLAYER who wants to can play the PING wedges its not a Daly-Mickelson only rule.

This reminds me of a thread not long ago when a guy was complaining bout playing with Titanium 460cc drivers because it took out the spirit of the game. Well, then let's play with our canes and wodden balls to keep the old golf spirit alive!!!!!

[Swingie]

LOL, people who dont like the rules crack me up!! If its legal, why not se the rules to your advantage if possible? If your not trying your hardest within the rules then you just aint that committed....and if anyone can rock em' well....

[whateverworks]

[quote name='OnOff' date='25 January 2010 - 07:10 PM' timestamp='1264464656' post='2203831']
Word is that Mickelson is debating using Eye 2 wedges at Torrey like Daly and Dean Wilson did last week at the Sony. The Ping Eyes have square grooves but are legal to game on tour because they were grandfathered into the rule book following a suit filed by Ping against the USGA.

I'm a huge Phil fan and I'm not sure what I think of this. I don't think it is a huge deal if he does play them but I think it would be much easier if he just used some V grooved Callaway's. Also, while he will be able to gain an advantage in the spin department, you have to figure there are some disadvantages tech wise to using 20 year old wedges. I also wonder if Phil is doing this to get under Tim Finchem's skin.

Discuss.

Phil had Cally bend them ( one to 64* ) and I'm sure they probably ground them also. Nothing illegal about using them and I'm sure more Pro's willas the year goes on..

[url="http://www.thegolfchannel.com/shag-bag/lefty-challenge-spirit-rules-34752/"]Article Link[/url]
[/quote]

[Smitty001]

LOL it is legal.... but i like the new rule its not like it effects us non tour players till like 2024 any way... i like the new rule as it puts a premium on hitting the fairway thats what the USGA was after IMO. if i was a tour player i'd do it.

[Rosales]

Finding these in Left has to be hard.

[funkyfedora]

[quote name='Rosales' date='26 January 2010 - 12:18 AM' timestamp='1264486736' post='2204646']
Finding these in Left has to be hard.
[/quote]

I am sure Ping has a few laying around for some pros.

[mstrong]

You would think that the eBay pricing for these things is going through the roof...especially in LH!

[mat562]

[quote name='OnOff' date='25 January 2010 - 07:10 PM' timestamp='1264464656' post='2203831']
...you have to figure there are some disadvantages tech wise to using 20 year old wedges. [/quote]

None whatsoever, at least to my mind, in the case of a club like a sand or lob wedge where feel is such a factor. In the case of a driver, where a twenty-five year-old design is pretty much totally out of the question these days because of the onset of technology and the disadvantage you'd be carrying with a driver from that era, I'd agree. In the case of a wedge, there's no reason whatsoever why an older club can't still feature in a modern bag.

The Eye 2 sand wedge is fantastic design that was played by every man and his dog at one time or another and, frankly, a good design is a good design when it comes to the scoring clubs. The Cleveland 588 is another example of a classic 20+ year-old wedge design that's still in daily use by legions of golfers at the top levels because it's simply a wonderfully effective design that still works as well as it ever did.

The only real argument for a newer wedge over an Eye 2 is that for certain players a modern, aggressively groved wedge may offer a slight performance advantage over the older Ping square grooves when it comes to spin rates in certain conditions. With the new groove regulations for the big boys though, that consideration is rendered moot. In fact, it's actually turned into an [i]advantage [/i]in the case of the pre-1990 Eye 2 wedges because those clubs are now the most aggressively-grooved wedges out there on the PGA Tour for those who want or need them because of the USGA's grandfather clause.

As for whether it's wrong to use them, I can see why some people may be critical of a player's motives when he's evidently switched, wholly or partly, in order to get the performance advantage of those grooves. In the case of players like Mark Calcavecchia though, who've always used that model of wedge, I struggle to raise a cynical eyebrow, and simply mark it down to rub of the green.

However you feel about players going out with a twenty-odd year-old wedge or two, the clubs are legal, using them is allowed under the PGA Tour's rules, and the whole thing, even in the case of a player who's wilfully looking for an advantage by utilising that now infamous loophole, is simply akin to someone hiring a good accountant to minimise their tax oulay. I wouldn't criticise someone else for doing [i]that[/i], and[i] I[/i] enthusiastically use every legal trick in the book (unfortunately not that many in my circumstances) to keep as much money in my account as possible every April. With that analogy in mind, it's hard to say that players like Daly and Mickelson are in the wrong from my own perspective on this issue.

[Jack lives here]

....wait till the new Ping ad comes out "20 years ago we were 20 years ahead"

Nicklaus has said for a long time it is necessary to wind back the golf ball. This is the easiest solution.

Man how did Nicklaus ever shoot 29 around the back nine at Augusta Sunday afternoon in 86. Lousy balls and lousy clubs. How much ability did he have compared to today's tech head pros??

[OnOff]

[quote name='Rosales' date='25 January 2010 - 10:18 PM' timestamp='1264486736' post='2204646']
Finding these in Left has to be hard.
[/quote]

[quote] "I've got a boatload of them" he(Mickelson) said. "Pitching wedges, sand wedges, lob wedges. I've got whole sets."

[url="http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-tours-news/2010-01/golf_mickelson_rosaforte_0125"]http://www.golfdiges..._rosaforte_0125[/url]
[/quote]

[OnOff]

[quote name='mat562' date='25 January 2010 - 11:06 PM' timestamp='1264489590' post='2204688']
[quote name='OnOff' date='25 January 2010 - 07:10 PM' timestamp='1264464656' post='2203831']
...you have to figure there are some disadvantages tech wise to using 20 year old wedges. [/quote]

None whatsoever, at least to my mind, in the case of a club like a sand or lob wedge where feel is such a factor. In the case of a driver, where a twenty-five year-old design is pretty much totally out of the question these days because of the onset of technology and the disadvantage you'd be carrying with a driver from that era, I'd agree. In the case of a wedge, there's no reason whatsoever why an older club can't still feature in a modern bag.

The Eye 2 sand wedge is fantastic design that was played by every man and his dog at one time or another and, frankly, a good design is a good design when it comes to the scoring clubs. The Cleveland 588 is another example of a classic 20+ year-old wedge design that's still in daily use by legions of golfers at the top levels because it's simply a wonderfully effective design that still works as well as it ever did.

The only real argument for a newer wedge over an Eye 2 is that for certain players a modern, aggressively groved wedge may offer a slight performance advantage over the older Ping square grooves when it comes to spin rates in certain conditions. With the new groove regulations for the big boys though, that consideration is rendered moot. In fact, it's actually turned into an [i]advantage [/i]in the case of the pre-1990 Eye 2 wedges because those clubs are now the most aggressively-grooved wedges out there on the PGA Tour for those who want or need them because of the USGA's grandfather clause.
[/quote]

Okay, so the [u]only[/u] technological advancement that has taken place in the wedge industry over the past twenty years is in groove technology. How can you be so sure? How are you qualified to conclude this?

[mat562]

Okay, what's your take on the advantages, grooves aside, that a new wedge design offers over an old one? Your opinion's every bit as valid as mine is and I'm open to discussion. I'm certainly no expert over and above having simply played a lot of golf and a lot of different clubs over something like the last twenty five years. You list the things that make a 2010 wedge superior to a 1985 one for me. I'll start by doing the same thing but for woods and irons:

Drivers and fairway woods are a different kettle of fish. Modern heads are larger and more forgiving than their forebears. Faces are hotter. Discretionary and moveable weight technology offers real performance advantages and make hitting a ball straighter, further and with an improved and more effective trajectory an easier proposition for a wider variety of golfers than it was a couple of decades ago. Hitting a 2010 driver is nothing whatsoever like hitting one from 1985, whatever your handicap.

Irons too have developed markedly since the mid 1980s. Forging and casting methods have improved, and iron designs that offer increased forgiveness and different trajectory options are now possible, often using multi-material construction that simply wasn't possible twenty five years ago. Irons can now be made that effectively shore up many of the weaknesses in an average golfer's game and which combine the elements that better players look for, such as feel and workability, in a package that makes playing and scoring appreciably easier through the design attributes of the club. A blade's still a blade, but there are lots of iron designs out there now that make playing the game a lot easier than it was a quarter of a century ago.

Wedges are different though. I say that a good wedge is a good wedge. Sand's the same as it was in 1985. Grass is still green. Balls are still white and round. My take is that a well designed wedge offers all the same benefits now, in an unmodified form, as it ever did. Most players don't need forgiveness in a wedge. They don't need a larger, lighter head, ingenious weighting systems or multimaterial construction, nor do they lust after a hotter clubface. They just want a club that sits nicely, has a sole design that allows it to be played effectively in a variety of postions, and they want something that gets the ball close to the hole from a wide variety of lies and positions when they're somewhere near the green just as they always have. Grinds aren't a new thing either. People have been grinding the soles of wedges to their needs and preferences for decades. Modern technology didn't invent the grind, nor has it made the process any more of an exact science.

When it simply boils down to a solid, effectively designed club, the Eye 2 wedges have got it in spades and Solheim got pretty much everything right. Practically everyone of a certain age has bagged an Eye 2 at one time or another, whatever their level of play, and the Eye 2 wedges have been a favourite club for a couple of generations of golfers, up to and including the very best in the world. The fact that they're still being used now, almost thirty years after they were originally produced, is testament to the fact that the original design was a good one that's stood the test of time and that the onset of technology, groove designs aside, is of limited importance when it comes to that category of golf club.

If there were oodles of performance-related reasons why a modern wedge eclipses an old one, you simply wouldn't see old wedges like the Eye 2 and the 588 in current bags. Certainly not on the tours anyway; where, as we all know, many players are fanatical about gaining every slight advantage that they can, often changing clubs on a regular basis and using technology like Trackman and launch monitors to micromanage every aspect of their equipment's performance. If the older wedges weren't still relevant you can guarantee that no one would be playing them. But the bag shots on the site show us that there are literally dozens of older designs like the Eye 2 (nearly 30 years old) the 588 (22 years old) and the Vokey 200 Series heads (a decade-old design) in play on the major professional tours on a weekly basis. There are other classic club designs that we've all bagged at one time or another too - like the original Taylor Made metal wood, for instance - but how many of [i]those[/i] are still being used? That, to me, illustrates that wedges are pretty much a done deal when it comes to technology and that a good wedge is [i]still[/i] a good wedge - with nothing having made headline news for a [i]long[/i] time.

[gentles]

I'm pretty sure that Phil has gamed an Eye 2 wedge in the past, in an old GD magazine I saw him talking about his wedge setup and it included at 60* Ping. This is probably a big factor in why he switched so easy....i'm surprised no one else had picked up on this.

[JTI]

Players are constantly tweeking shafts, lofts etc on launch monitors to find out which shaft is going to give them the best chance of hitting it longer and straighter than a competitor....so why not find a wedge that is going to give you the spin numbers you want....if the USGA hadnt brought in the groove rule no-one would be batting an eye lid.

If there is an advantage to be gained by using a different club head, shaft or wedge then you take it. Golf is effectively a golfers business, he needs to do everything in his power to give him self the best chance of winning...why handicap yourself when youre perfectly entitled to play a certain club.

More fool the USGA, I think it would be hilarious if everyone started playing Eye2 wedges...talk about putting the cat amongst the pigeons if Ping had the No.1 wedge on tour in 2010 with 20 year old technology

[Smitty001]

[quote name='funkyfedora' date='26 January 2010 - 01:29 AM' timestamp='1264487354' post='2204652']
[quote name='Rosales' date='26 January 2010 - 12:18 AM' timestamp='1264486736' post='2204646']
Finding these in Left has to be hard.
[/quote]

I am sure Ping has a few laying around for some pros.
[/quote]

wonder how many if any will use the entire set of eye 2s

[davidthibault]

It's a money game... Who gives a sh*t if he's winning ! In my opinion, if he plays them better than his own wedges, he'd be REALLY stupid not to use them...

By the way, six months ago I just missed the opportunity to buy a LH 60* Eye 2... for 10 dollars. Yes. Really.

[Smitty001]

[quote name='gentles' date='26 January 2010 - 03:59 AM' timestamp='1264496379' post='2204741']
I'm pretty sure that Phil has gamed an Eye 2 wedge in the past, in an old GD magazine I saw him talking about his wedge setup and it included at 60* Ping. This is probably a big factor in why he switched so easy....i'm surprised no one else had picked up on this.
[/quote]

i think that john daly used ping wedges at the sony. i could have sworn that i read that somewhere.

[surefire]

[quote name='JOHN GOLIA' date='26 January 2010 - 03:40 AM' timestamp='1264477213' post='2204350']
Square grooves or no square grooves. Make up your mind PGA & R&A.
[/quote]

Don't tar the PGA and the R&A with the same brush as the USGA.

Pings lawsuit is only with the USGA, so outside of their jurisdiction, pretty much the rest of the world, Ping Eye2 clubs are not legal.

[smackygolf]

[quote name='JOHN GOLIA' date='25 January 2010 - 09:40 PM' timestamp='1264477213' post='2204350']
Just my 2 cents for what its worth. If you are going to play with square grooves
from the old Ping eye 2 days whats the difference with every company having square
grooves today. It should be all the same. Stupid stupid stupid.
Square grooves or no square grooves. Make up your mind PGA & R&A.
[/quote]
The R&A has nothing to do with this. You aren't even qualified to have an opinion on the matter. Ignorance on a subject is no excuse.

[phil75070]

[quote name='Seve0992' date='25 January 2010 - 09:25 PM' timestamp='1264476335' post='2204310']
The Ping wedges "would" be illegal under the new groove rule. However, the USGA shows very little foresight and even less common sense. I think every player should track down some eye2's and play them just to demonstrate the USGA's absurdity. I also wish several companies would file lawsuits to make the USGA consider more seriously the consequences of their actions.


[/quote]

You hit the nail on the head . The fault lies with the USGA. The whole idea of a bifurcated set of Rules is ridiculous in the first place and trying to control the game at the highest levels by some crazy rule about grooves is a knee-jerk reaction to their own mistakes with regard to the ball and equipment over the years. On top of that, I agree with Peter Kostis and others that this new groove rule isn't going to make a difference. You can look at the scores being posted on both the regular and Champions tours so far this year to see proof of that. The guys at the top of the game where it might make a difference are talented and smart enough to compensate, leaving the "little guy" to be the one to really suffer.

As to Mickelson and others playing Ping Eye2 wedges, they are legal, end of story.

[Boogs2]

[quote name='jedi8802' date='25 January 2010 - 10:19 PM' timestamp='1264475986' post='2204294']
And for the record, I don't understand how people can say Eye 2s are ugly. I'd like to know what you're all gaming. They are simple looking and ultimately effective. Nothing glued into the cavity, etc. They are classic and timeless -- they will never go out of style.
[/quote]


I wouldnt say they're the prettiest clubs out there....but there is something about them that is eye catching...no pun intended. Ever since I've heard of the Eye 2's and their status of being easy to hit and ping's quality...i have been looking for a set to buy eventually and try out the eye 2's...they have an endearing characteristic to them.

As for the "loophole"...i understand what traditionalists are saying and that the eye 2 wedges should have never been grandfathered in...but that is the USGA's fault for allowing that in the first place. If the USGA declares something legal...whether people like it or not, its legal. If the integrity of the game is "on the line", then all the tour pros should come together, ban the use of eye 2's and call anyone who does a cheater...BUT...when you have millions or hundreds of thousands of dollars on the line...I'm sure they would use whatever equipment that'll help them make the appropriate shot. Either way, I hope Phil has a great year...and when Tiger comes back, I hope he has a good year as well.

[bermuda]

[quote name='gentles' date='26 January 2010 - 03:59 AM' timestamp='1264496379' post='2204741']
I'm pretty sure that Phil has gamed an Eye 2 wedge in the past, in an old GD magazine I saw him talking about his wedge setup and it included at 60* Ping. This is probably a big factor in why he switched so easy....i'm surprised no one else had picked up on this.
[/quote]

I posted on here in November that the Eye2s were legal in perpetuity and would any pros use them. If a 12-handicapper can figure it out, what took the pros so long?

[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/319052-new-groove-rule-discussion/page__p__2080968__fromsearch__1&#entry2080968"]http://www.golfwrx.c...1&#entry2080968[/url]

[Sawgrass]

You aren't allowed to make the rules. You aren't allowed to break the rules.

You are allowed to use the rules, and if you don't use them to your full advantage, you are not playing your best.

Playing your best [u]is[/u] in the spirit of the game.

[yUmaRouS]

What is the set rule these grandfathered model? because say if phil wants to his eye 2 for the rest of the season. Obviously he's going to worn his grooves out during the year and want to replace it fresh grooves. What does he do then? If ping made him a brand new eye 2 (if Ping can still produce eye 2s...)that is exactly the same as a legal eye 2, wouldn't the groove rule be meaningless? Like that means everyone can use grandfathered models and use square grooves right? I'm sure the new grooves don't have a huge different on most players game, but there has to be a minority that still wants to play square grooves. Whats the rule with that? are Ping allowed to start producing eye 2s with square grooves again?

His eye2 with PX and multi-compund looks epic.. If I was phil I too would play eye2s, irons I would play some Callaway Bobby Jones model blade with some KBS TOURs

[Goldenhawk]

[quote name='gplynchburg' date='25 January 2010 - 09:33 PM' timestamp='1264473183' post='2204163']
heck,do it right,sand and lob in beryllium copper,for more spin!!!!
[/quote]

Damn right. Go Phil. Now where do I get a set of Ping Eye 2s.......

[setter02]

[quote name='Jack lives here' date='26 January 2010 - 02:13 AM' timestamp='1264490006' post='2204694']
Nicklaus has said for a long time it is necessary to wind back the golf ball. This is the easiest solution.
[/quote]

Because this wouldn't be the best in the long run financially for OEM's to jump on board. Having golfers replace a ball doesn't cost that much, replacing your irons and wedges, different story!