Least favorite design feature on a golf hole.

[HitEmTrue]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1304030709' post='3194348']
I revisited the image and what you wrote... Its only a 420yd hole, and both lines represented 210 yards. Even if it is determined to influence slow play, its only ONE hole. It shouldn't affect the whole field because most courses have a difficult or testy hole for average Joe golfer. And, it shouldn't be that big of a deal for mid-low indexes.

You also say its 240 to cover from the front tee's, yet the hole is only 420 with what appear to be 3 tee boxes. Using your line and from the back tee, carry would be approx 210 + 150 to cover the hazard or 360, right?, with 60 left to the green? Nobody can do that into a stiff breeze.[/quote]

It's from 420 from the men's white tees...what the typical golfer would play from who'd struggle a hole like this. 460 yards from the back tees (not shown). The two small in front of that are used for red (dare I say ladies?) tees...240ish to carry from the front reds. Par 70 course, 6044 (68.4/119 slope) from the whites.

Correct, not a big deal for mid-cappers (I'm one of those) and better. It isn't the end of the world; a four-some will likely still be waiting on the tee when you finish the hole before it. Just thought of it as an example of what LarryBud was talking about in his OP.

[DigDugDig]

- Goofy stuff in the MIDDLE of the fairway!

 

- Bunkers in the middle of a green. (Sure it's "novel", until you get on the wrong side of it on the green, also, there's nothing better than PUTTING through someone's poorly replaced divot on the green...)

 

- In-course out of bounds. Cheeses Priced, make it a hazard. I've also played at a few courses with in-course out of bounds where the local rule was if you hit it OVER the out of bounds area it was deemed OUT OF BOUNDS....irregardless of where it landed????? What?

 

- Hazards/bunkers/etc. for the sake of hazards...

 

- Courses with six 400 yard par 4's and/or four 165 yard par 3's (If I want to hit my 8 iron 11 times, I'll go to the range...)

[teejaywhy]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1304012315' post='3193598']

I recall reading your post. I understand the golfer your talking about; most of my friends fit into that category. Still, there are many courses out there that are easy, fun tracks for those types of golfers.
[/quote]

Ya see, I don't think you get it.

[hacker101]

Tee box that aligns you awkwarldy ie not down the fairway. My minds eye really struggles with this. Secondly, my home course is bad about adjusting the tee markers on the par threes where the yardage is always similar. Pin back, tees forward = 175, tees middle, pin middle =175 etc.

[dlygrisse]

Long par 4's with tiny greens, short par 4's with big greens and no trouble. Same with par 3's

A course with holes that have no variety, I want long and short par 3's, 4's and 5's

Courses with long, dense rough right off the fairway, US Open type of rough where you cant advance the ball and you lose your ball 2' off the fairway. Silly

Uphill par 3's

Courses with really dense rough all around the green, chipping and pitching become irrelevant, give me some chipping areas or collection areas so I can be creative.

Holes with no bailout or safe way to play the hole if you desire, the exception would be a short par 3.

Courses with no short par 3,4 and 5 every course should have a few risk reward holes that tempt you to go for birdie or eagle, but give you the opportunity to play for par if you are not playing well.

[Sean2]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1304010701' post='3193531']
.[u][b]a shot that some people may not be able to play.[/b][/u]

I found the line above rather interesting considering we're playing golf, using skills that dramatically vary on courses that vary in difficulty. If it's true 95% of the golfers don't break 100, then its fair to assume they don't have many shots, right? Many of my friends don't have shots that I have, so they play easier courses and or shorter tees, as they should. Presuming one is physically capable, is it not suppose to be a motivating factor for each golfer to improve the number of shots in his bag??? The consequences for not doing that is he's left in a quandary when course designs present shot options that he doesn't have... Its not the courses designers fault many golfers don't improve; he's just trying to present a challenge or lesser challenge by providing shorter tees. Are courses suppose to be designed to accommodate limited shots? Answer is yes. All golfers need to do is choose easier courses, or shorter tees.

Last evening I prepared a list of courses for our upcoming desert trip. I went through a slew of courses that were rated easy for me, opting for much harder courses. There again, I was able to "choose" what fit my game and likes. Saying that in no way suggests all obstacles will be handled with deft skill...

Yesterday my buddy and I faced a 460yd Par 4 that required a 230yd forced carry into a breeze, over a hazard. As I read that condition, if it wasn't possible, move up to shorter tees to insure I can cover forced carry's. Next option is attempt the shot and hope... or purposely layup and change how I play the hole. My buddy chose to play the tees I was playing, but couldn't cover the hazard. Course management says if I can't cover a forced carry, leaving a longer 2nd shot then I must lay up short of the hazard to insure a good 2nd shot to within reason of the green, knowing I am playing that Par 4 - with 3 shots, relying upon my short game to save Par. If there's no short game to speak of, that means the tee's are too long, and or possibly the course is too difficult. There in lays course management and or the measure of the golfers judgment.

There's no reasonable excuse for poor judgment. Each of them should have left their egos in the car, and played the tees that insured they cover all forced carry's. Moving up one tee would have been the answer. As we walked off that hole, my friend took 8, the other guys took 6 and 7, yet no one held up play. I can't help but wonder how much being a better golfer would improve pace of play of the 97% of golfers that don't break 90.
[/quote]
Hold your horses Pepper there are always exceptions. A few years ago I joined a local Am Tour. I thought it would be fun to play some nice, private courses, as well as play in some tournaments. Being in my 50s, and not the longest hitters, they assured me I would be playing from suitable tees.

I get to the first tournament and they have me playing from 6800 yards. WTF? Every par 4 I'm hitting driver, fairway wood, and wedge. Two of the par threes I had to hit driver. On one hole I had to hit a 230 yard carry drive to clear a hazard over the fairway. My playing partners knew I'd never make it...plus it was into the wind.

What I had to do was hit a shot to the ladies tees, then hit a shot from there to get to the fairway.

Yeah, that round was a lot of fun.

[hititbig2112]

IN-COURSE OUT OF BOUNDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MiffWildCat]

I rather dislike greens that slope on all sides actually. I feel like golfers should be rewarded for hitting a green in regulation, not watching it land on the green regardless of where and roll off the side to an oh too convenient bunker. There is a hole or two at a few courses near my home that pull this stunt, a forced "go big or go home" kind of shot for those looking for a birdie or even a par occasionally.

[isaacbm]

anyone know how to post a satellite image from google satellite site on to this site? I would love to show you the two worst holes in succession ever designed.

[poppyhillsguy]

16th Hole Ancil Hoffman.

Tree in the middle of the fairway.

[CorazonDeLeon]

[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1304055527' post='3195415']
anyone know how to post a satellite image from google satellite site on to this site? I would love to show you the two worst holes in succession ever designed.
[/quote]

Print screen > paste into Paint > crop > save image

[isaacbm]

[quote name='CorazonDeLeon' timestamp='1304056314' post='3195427']
[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1304055527' post='3195415']
anyone know how to post a satellite image from google satellite site on to this site? I would love to show you the two worst holes in succession ever designed.
[/quote]

Print screen > paste into Paint > crop > save image
[/quote]

Thanks, can't figure it out.... Maybe tomorrow.

[teejaywhy]

[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1304057635' post='3195443']
[quote name='CorazonDeLeon' timestamp='1304056314' post='3195427']
[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1304055527' post='3195415']
anyone know how to post a satellite image from google satellite site on to this site? I would love to show you the two worst holes in succession ever designed.
[/quote]

Print screen > paste into Paint > crop > save image
[/quote]

Thanks, can't figure it out.... Maybe tomorrow.
[/quote]

Google Earth is easier:
File -> Save -> Save Image
(saves as a jpg)

[One_Putt_Blunder]

One other one I thought of is the 18th Hole on Wekopa Saguaro Course and this is a top 100 ranked course, From the tips is is a par 4 at 508 yards and it plays into the prevailing wind. If you look at the picture I added the 270 yard mark from the tips to land in the flat spot is the ideal drive. The big problem is if you come up 10 yards short of that(carry distance) there is a massive hill that takes your ball and rolls it back down below the 1st set of bunkers on the left and leaves you no choice but to lay up with a mid iron short of the pot bunker you see and scramble from there. The crazy thing is the course plays as a par 71 and the 18th being what it is would make a better par 5 that gives the long hitters a legit chance of an eagle and the shorter hitters a better chance of par or birdie if they play the hole right. I have played this course about 20 times and have only seen 2 pars ever made on it from the tips.

[mbbrewer]

I dislike every feature on every hole at the Horseshoe Bay courses. Miss a fairway by 5 yards? You're OB even though the ball is "playable"

[bigmoneyp]

I don't enjoy when a course starts or finishes with a par 3. I also don't like crazy undulation in greens.

[isaacbm]

One other one I thought of is the 18th Hole on Wekopa Saguaro Course and this is a top 100 ranked course, From the tips is is a par 4 at 508 yards and it plays into the prevailing wind. If you look at the picture I added the 270 yard mark from the tips to land in the flat spot is the ideal drive. The big problem is if you come up 10 yards short of that(carry distance) there is a massive hill that takes your ball and rolls it back down below the 1st set of bunkers on the left and leaves you no choice but to lay up with a mid iron short of the pot bunker you see and scramble from there. The crazy thing is the course plays as a par 71 and the 18th being what it is would make a better par 5 that gives the long hitters a legit chance of an eagle and the shorter hitters a better chance of par or birdie if they play the hole right. I have played this course about 20 times and have only seen 2 pars ever made on it from the tips.

 

It seems strange that you've only seen two 4's on this hole especially after you say that if if was a par five it would give guys a good chance for a 3?? You'd think there would be a few more 4's made on this hole than you've seen. I bet if you just convinced yourself it was a par 5 and layed it up just a little short on your second shot, you'd make a lot more 4's. ON the other hand, I agree with you, par 4's over 500 yards are pretty silly. You deffinately have to be near a scratch to justify playing the tips on a hole like this.

[One_Putt_Blunder]

I have only seen it twice with guys in my group, but the long ball hitters on a calm day can definatley carry the hill and have a long iron left for me the few times I have carried the hill I still have a 2 hybrid or 3 wood left. The reason I said that is there is something that happens mentally that makes it easier to make a 4 on a short par 5 than a long par 4. Playing it as a par 4 I usually see people press and try to get the ball on the green in 2 and hit bad shots because of it, but if it was a par 5 it makes it easier mentally to lay up to your favorite wedge distance and knock it close for a 4. It is really more of a mental thing than anything.

[serveitup911]

I don't like courses with blind water hazards.
Hit a good drive down the left center only to find the fairway ran out at 275 and ball is in hazard.
Stripe one down the middle on a long par 4 and find out there was a cross creek at 280.
See a hazard down the left, so aim a little right only to realize yet another water hazard.

I shouldn't NEED local knowledge to be able to play a course.

This has become less of an issue because with skycaddie, I can get a quick overview of the hole beforehand.

[DavePelz4]

When the conversation comes up to poorly designed holes, Oak Grove in Harvard, IL always gets mentioned by us in Chicago. The other 17 holes on this track, IMHO, are great but #11 is a b****. Totally unfair and out of character. The pic below doesn't show yardage or accurately represent the trees lining the hole but as you can see, it's detailed as a two shot par 5 at 490 yards which implies an easy birdie with an eagle possibility. There is minimal rough on this hole until you reach the green complex.

 

In reality, you have to either lay up on your first shot or second. If you layup on the first, you can't hit it more than 175 or you're in the water. If you try to carry the first landing area, the fairway is about 10 yards wide and if you have any roll with a driver, you're in the junk unless you hit a 45 degree ground fade. In the event your drive finds that fairway and holds, you have to hit a high draw 2nd shot over trees because the prevailing wind is always off the left or hit a 50 yard pitch to a landing area in front of the water. The trees cover much more of the fairway than detailed and there is a relative narrow chute heading in. If you choose to lay up on your first shot and hit it less than 175, the most you can do is to hit a pitch about 100 yards leaving you 200+ into the green.

 

Although I'm a few credits short of my course design degree, it could be a much fairer yet tough hole to turn it into a 440 yard par 4 by moving the tees up and to the left. That angle gives you a chance of hitting a driver and having a shorter shot into the green or hitting a hybrid/fairway metal and having a longer second shot. A different kind of risk reward hole but much fairer than what you face now.

 

 

 

[serveitup911]

When the conversation comes up to poorly designed holes, Oak Grove in Harvard, IL always gets mentioned by us in Chicago. The other 17 holes on this track, IMHO, are great but #11 is a b****. Totally unfair and out of character. The pic below doesn't show yardage or accurately represent the trees lining the hole but as you can see, it's detailed as a two shot par 5 at 490 yards which implies an easy birdie with an eagle possibility. There is minimal rough on this hole until you reach the green complex.

 

In reality, you have to either lay up on your first shot or second. If you layup on the first, you can't hit it more than 175 or you're in the water. If you try to carry the first landing area, the fairway is about 10 yards wide and if you have any roll with a driver, you're in the junk unless you hit a 45 degree ground fade. In the event your drive finds that fairway and holds, you have to hit a high draw 2nd shot over trees because the prevailing wind is always off the left or hit a 50 yard pitch to a landing area in front of the water. The trees cover much more of the fairway than detailed and there is a relative narrow chute heading in. If you choose to lay up on your first shot and hit it less than 175, the most you can do is to hit a pitch about 100 yards leaving you 200+ into the green.

 

Although I'm a few credits short of my course design degree, it could be a much fairer yet tough hole to turn it into a 440 yard par 4 by moving the tees up and to the left. That angle gives you a chance of hitting a driver and having a shorter shot into the green or hitting a hybrid/fairway metal and having a longer second shot. A different kind of risk reward hole but much fairer than what you face now.

 

 

 

 

Wow, I bet you have seen some unbelievably high scores on that hole (not from you though ) - trouble everywhere!

[DavePelz4]

Last summer, for the first time ever, I parred the hole. Seriously, you would have thought I aced it I was THAT excited. We've played it probably 25 times and I've never seen a birdie, have seen only a handful of pars and have personally carded more "others" than I care to remember.

In our first round last year on OG I was even par after the tenth hole and walked off the 11th green after carding a solid 9. Oh yeah, I one putted, too.

[isaacbm]

[quote name='One_Putt_Blunder' timestamp='1304200147' post='3198432']
I have only seen it twice with guys in my group, but the long ball hitters on a calm day can definatley carry the hill and have a long iron left for me the few times I have carried the hill I still have a 2 hybrid or 3 wood left. The reason I said that is there is something that happens mentally that makes it easier to make a 4 on a short par 5 than a long par 4. Playing it as a par 4 I usually see people press and try to get the ball on the green in 2 and hit bad shots because of it, but if it was a par 5 it makes it easier mentally to lay up to your favorite wedge distance and knock it close for a 4. It is really more of a mental thing than anything.


[/quote]

Absolutely agree. For years, I've been thinking of 220 yard par 3's as my second shot into a par five. I feel like it becomes an opportunity instead of a tough par. If you make a 3, it feels like a birdie, but if you make a 4 you don't feel derailed. Funny how we can play tricks on our own minds.

[laguna79]

Railroad ties !!!!!!

There only purpose is to add $100 to the green fee !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[I Suck]

I hate water. I lose enough balls, why do they gotta go make things harder on me.

[Bubb]

When the conversation comes up to poorly designed holes, Oak Grove in Harvard, IL always gets mentioned by us in Chicago. The other 17 holes on this track, IMHO, are great but #11 is a b****. Totally unfair and out of character. The pic below doesn't show yardage or accurately represent the trees lining the hole but as you can see, it's detailed as a two shot par 5 at 490 yards which implies an easy birdie with an eagle possibility. There is minimal rough on this hole until you reach the green complex.

 

In reality, you have to either lay up on your first shot or second. If you layup on the first, you can't hit it more than 175 or you're in the water. If you try to carry the first landing area, the fairway is about 10 yards wide and if you have any roll with a driver, you're in the junk unless you hit a 45 degree ground fade. In the event your drive finds that fairway and holds, you have to hit a high draw 2nd shot over trees because the prevailing wind is always off the left or hit a 50 yard pitch to a landing area in front of the water. The trees cover much more of the fairway than detailed and there is a relative narrow chute heading in. If you choose to lay up on your first shot and hit it less than 175, the most you can do is to hit a pitch about 100 yards leaving you 200+ into the green.

 

Although I'm a few credits short of my course design degree, it could be a much fairer yet tough hole to turn it into a 440 yard par 4 by moving the tees up and to the left. That angle gives you a chance of hitting a driver and having a shorter shot into the green or hitting a hybrid/fairway metal and having a longer second shot. A different kind of risk reward hole but much fairer than what you face now.

 

 

 

 

I've only played Oak Grove a few times, and it's been awhile, but #10 has always stood out to me as the worst hole on this course. Even the course website says that if you're left of center (in the fairway) after your tee shot, "you're in jail." In jail when you're slightly left of center in the fairway?

[golfortennis]

[quote name='One_Putt_Blunder' timestamp='1304149974' post='3197700']<br />One other one I thought of is the 18th Hole on Wekopa Saguaro Course and this is a top 100 ranked course, From the tips is is a par 4 at 508 yards and it plays into the prevailing wind. If you look at the picture I added the 270 yard mark from the tips to land in the flat spot is the ideal drive. The big problem is if you come up 10 yards short of that(carry distance) there is a massive hill that takes your ball and rolls it back down below the 1st set of bunkers on the left and leaves you no choice but to lay up with a mid iron short of the pot bunker you see and scramble from there. The crazy thing is the course plays as a par 71 and the 18th being what it is would make a better par 5 that gives the long hitters a legit chance of an eagle and the shorter hitters a better chance of par or birdie if they play the hole right. I have played this course about 20 times and have only seen 2 pars ever made on it from the tips.<br /><img src="http://www.wekopa.com/sites/images/236/saguaro_hole18.jpg" /><br />[/quote]<br /><br /><br />

Ah yes, one of my two favorite courses. Enjoyed a wonderful day with Mr One Putt, and I must agree that 18th hole is a b****. I'm pretty sure we played from the one ups, and typically that shouldn't be too hard for me to reach, but into the wind...I rolled all the way back down just as he described.

That would be a good idea, Matt. Would you add 20 yards to it or just keep it exactly as is? I think there would be room.

[One_Putt_Blunder]

Pat, I would keep it as it is, but since it already plays as a par 71 I would change it to par 72. That way par becomes a more realistic number while rewarding a great drive for the chance of birdie or the occasional eagle. When you have upper level tournaments it is really easy to revert back to a par 4.
The way it sets up with the slope and into the prevailing wind it becomes too difficult for the average player to have a realistic par opportunity as a par 4.

[hitsalittle]

[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1304218985' post='3198889']
Last summer, for the first time ever, I parred the hole. Seriously, you would have thought I aced it I was THAT excited. We've played it probably 25 times and I've never seen a birdie, have seen only a handful of pars and have personally carded more "others" than I care to remember.

In our first round last year on OG I was even par after the tenth hole and walked off the 11th green after carding a solid 9. Oh yeah, I one putted, too.
[/quote]

I made 4 on that hole the first two times I played it in the publinx qualifier last year - but it's a horrible hole - the first time, I just got really lucky - hit a 4 iron off the tee and just blasted my 2 hybrid - turns out the most room there is on that hole is up by the green! Second time around, I figured that I would do the same thing - both times I got up and down for 4. So, I think that's the way to play it - very conservatively off the tee, then absolutely go for it on your second shot.

But it's really a horrible hole - there's another one I don't like on OG, it's a par 4 on the back, but 16 holes out there are really good. 10 is a little wonky, but it's not a bad hole...

OG # 11 is easily the worst hole I've played in tournament golf. close second is "old" #10 at Groesbeck muni in Lansing, MI - you hit 7 iron, 8 iron - short par 4. It's a mess.

[hitsalittle]

Another one I hate is the tee on a mountain, green in the valley par 3 - there's one at Weaver Ridge in Peoria, IL, that is 230 from the tips, and maybe100 yards downhill. Play it in the wind and you're absolutely just guessing. The weird part is that I make a lot of 3's there, but I always feel like I got lucky with club selection...I've hit everything from 3 wood (seriously into the wind) to 8 iron (pin in front, down wind).