Mac O'Grady's Swing ... what can we learn?

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='PreppySlapCut' timestamp='1310705530' post='3393180']
[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1310688664' post='3392340']
never thought this thread would turn out this way...thats sad. If youre not a fan of MORAD or Mac then why would you comment at all?
[/quote]
I have no qualms with Mac. I actually like his CP action a lot. My initial comments were merely made in defense of Russc, who I believe was correct in questioning why we were viewing Mac as one of the all-time great ball-strikers.
[/quote]

preppy...valid and respectable wrxer... i understand if you were " in defense of Russc, who I believe was correct in questioning why we were viewing Mac as one of the all-time great ball-strikers."

but arent great ball strikers great ballstrikers? I just dont understand the interpretation of great ballstriker. Why would you bash somebody for their actions on the green when they are in the running for a title of "great ballstriker"?

[JD3]

[quote name='Tiltswing' timestamp='1310662383' post='3391181']
[quote name='JD3' timestamp='1308878625' post='3331358']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1308839817' post='3329671']
My opinions are my own. Geoff's criticism of Mac were relative to his 2006 swing only and he was very complimentary of the way he swung when he was on tour. Hmm, wonder where he got the '06 footage? But nice try mis-characterizing Geoff's beliefs and pigeon holing yourself. lol

But maybe Mac was [b][i]enjoying[/i][/b] hitting flyers from the fairway in '06?

As I said, his swing has evolved quite a bit over time and I don't think he's nearly as lateral now as he was in '06 when he was experimenting with what he termed "linear momentum transfer." The latest information that I have is that he's more back to his "online" swing, much closer to what he was doing in the late 80's.

Why don't you ask about "radius locks" and where Mac came up with that idea? lol
[/quote]
I know where you got it, no need to try and explain. Right out of the encyclopedia where he says something like "Mac's swing today is a poor representation of what it was on the regular tour, blah, blah, blah." So here we have a guy pushing 60, who any of Slicefixer guys over the age of 30 would die to have a swing like. And yet it's a "poor representation?" The slicefixer model (built on a very bad premise imo) is too in to out, requiring a massive "swing low and left "/stay in flexion compensation. Not something Mac has to do, and btw not something Hogan did either.
[/quote]

In flexion?: [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYxsxEamMJE&feature=channel_video_title"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYxsxEamMJE&feature=channel_video_title[/url] . Looks like Spider has plenty of extension to me.
[/quote]
belt line leading shoulders shows more extension, look at segment with the iron comparison from behind camera view and freeze it in the follow through

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='JD3' timestamp='1310723774' post='3393385']
[quote name='Tiltswing' timestamp='1310662383' post='3391181']
[quote name='JD3' timestamp='1308878625' post='3331358']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1308839817' post='3329671']
My opinions are my own. Geoff's criticism of Mac were relative to his 2006 swing only and he was very complimentary of the way he swung when he was on tour. Hmm, wonder where he got the '06 footage? But nice try mis-characterizing Geoff's beliefs and pigeon holing yourself. lol

But maybe Mac was [b][i]enjoying[/i][/b] hitting flyers from the fairway in '06?

As I said, his swing has evolved quite a bit over time and I don't think he's nearly as lateral now as he was in '06 when he was experimenting with what he termed "linear momentum transfer." The latest information that I have is that he's more back to his "online" swing, much closer to what he was doing in the late 80's.

Why don't you ask about "radius locks" and where Mac came up with that idea? lol
[/quote]
I know where you got it, no need to try and explain. Right out of the encyclopedia where he says something like "Mac's swing today is a poor representation of what it was on the regular tour, blah, blah, blah." So here we have a guy pushing 60, who any of Slicefixer guys over the age of 30 would die to have a swing like. And yet it's a "poor representation?" The slicefixer model (built on a very bad premise imo) is too in to out, requiring a massive "swing low and left "/stay in flexion compensation. Not something Mac has to do, and btw not something Hogan did either.
[/quote]

In flexion?: [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYxsxEamMJE&feature=channel_video_title"]http://www.youtube.c...nel_video_title[/url] . Looks like Spider has plenty of extension to me.
[/quote]
belt line leading shoulders shows more extension, look at segment with the iron comparison from behind camera view and freeze it in the follow through
[/quote]
Obviously ,you are privy to pictures of Mr Hogan that I am not aware of.In every single picture and video that I have seen of Mr Hogan,his right elbow was on his right hip and his left upper arm was really connected to his chest right before/at/after impact.The butt of the club going low and chest is just an inevitable result of this connection and the body continuing its rotation.
I am always interested in better understanding the golf swing.Could you please tell me what are the bad premises underlying the Slicefixer swing and specifically what you mean by "massive swing low and left .
Thanks

[imstackedson]

[quote name='PreppySlapCut' timestamp='1310705243' post='3393171']
[quote name='imstackedson' timestamp='1310687114' post='3392283']
well it is very possible to hit all 87 windows you desire and not hit the ball to two feet, or even 15 feet, but now we are just arguing semantics.....lolz...you obviously have a bit of a grudge towards his system and thats fine, so do i.....mac just hits it better than everyone ive ever seen, grant is a very close second...so they don't hit it tight under pressure as often as like 3 of the greatest players in the history of game (which is beyond obvious has more to do with with what kind of head you have on your shoulders and balls you got more than your swing mechanics) doesn't mean the guy isn't an incredible ball striker.....i suppose knudson and norman (moe) weren't very good either? ...lolz...get off it dude...mac is silly good at hitting the golf ball....lots of great hitters don't make great players...i hope this is obvious
[/quote]
I don't have a problem at all with the man, nor his swing. Perhaps we just have a different definition of what makes someone a "great" ball-striker. Hitting a bunch of different trajectory windows or shaping it the way you want does you ZERO good if you can't really control where it ends up. A guy like Joe Durant is a good example of what I'm talking about. Joe has one shot, and maybe a few VERY slight variations of that one shot. He's played a long-ish time on Tour, won a respectable 4 events, but most often now finds himself hanging out around the 100 mark on the money list. He has no short game to speak of, which much like Mac, has held him back. However, he still leads the Tour (or finishes at worst in the top 5) every year in ball-striking. Mac never even approached these numbers. Knudson was, in my opinion, a better ball-striker. He also picked up 8 wins on Tour.

I'm not trying to be confrontational, I'm trying to have a discussion like a grown-up. I don't use terms like "lolz" and poor syntax to get my point across, but hopefully you can see where I'm going.
[/quote]



well be honest with your self homie....you may saying like you don't want the confrontation but its just thinly veiled confrontational-ness and its obvious to all....saying things like macs "87 windows "(when there are like 77 less than that..LOLZ) and you have a discussion like a "grown up" and such are antagonistic....like i said just thinly veiled antagonism....you like your beef thinly sliced and thats cool....but your argument isnt....no matter how many forums you post it in, joe durant will never go down in history as a great ball striker....dude is impressive to watch..for his own reasons....but there are things that a good ball striker must fulfill and durant doesn't cut it....he is damn good and a good player...but your argument isnt it..especially dropping stats in the mix....if you don't understand where stats miss the mark when it comes to ball striking then we are both wasting our time here....mac is one of the great ball strikers in the game....everyone who knows anything knows it...if you don't...maybe you will some day...guess they don't teach the important stuff in those PGMer classes...ZLOLLZZZ ZOMG

[JD3]

[quote name='russc' timestamp='1310735810' post='3393662']

Obviously ,you are privy to pictures of Mr Hogan that I am not aware of.In ev[b]ery single picture and video that I have seen of Mr Hogan,his right elbow was on his right hip and his left upper arm was really connected to his chest right before/at/after impact.[/b]The butt of the club going low and chest is just an inevitable result of this connection and the body continuing its rotation.
I am always interested in better understanding the golf swing.Could you please tell me what are the bad premises underlying the Slicefixer swing and specifically what you mean by "massive swing low and left .
Thanks
[/quote]
Id say from P6 thru P8 that's accurate. Thereafter Hogan's arms came off his chest, accounting for his high hands follow-thru, consistent w/ an extension-laden pivot.

[eightiron]

[quote name='imstackedson' timestamp='1310736031' post='3393669']
[quote name='PreppySlapCut' timestamp='1310705243' post='3393171']
[quote name='imstackedson' timestamp='1310687114' post='3392283']
well it is very possible to hit all 87 windows you desire and not hit the ball to two feet, or even 15 feet, but now we are just arguing semantics.....lolz...you obviously have a bit of a grudge towards his system and thats fine, so do i.....mac just hits it better than everyone ive ever seen, grant is a very close second...so they don't hit it tight under pressure as often as like 3 of the greatest players in the history of game (which is beyond obvious has more to do with with what kind of head you have on your shoulders and balls you got more than your swing mechanics) doesn't mean the guy isn't an incredible ball striker.....i suppose knudson and norman (moe) weren't very good either? ...lolz...get off it dude...mac is silly good at hitting the golf ball....lots of great hitters don't make great players...i hope this is obvious
[/quote]
I don't have a problem at all with the man, nor his swing. Perhaps we just have a different definition of what makes someone a "great" ball-striker. Hitting a bunch of different trajectory windows or shaping it the way you want does you ZERO good if you can't really control where it ends up. A guy like Joe Durant is a good example of what I'm talking about. Joe has one shot, and maybe a few VERY slight variations of that one shot. He's played a long-ish time on Tour, won a respectable 4 events, but most often now finds himself hanging out around the 100 mark on the money list. He has no short game to speak of, which much like Mac, has held him back. However, he still leads the Tour (or finishes at worst in the top 5) every year in ball-striking. Mac never even approached these numbers. Knudson was, in my opinion, a better ball-striker. He also picked up 8 wins on Tour

I'm not trying to be confrontational, I'm trying to have a discussion like a grown-up. I don't use terms like "lolz" and poor syntax to get my point across, but hopefully you can see where I'm going.
[/quote]


well be honest with your self homie....you may saying like you don't want the confrontation but its just thinly veiled confrontational-ness and its obvious to all....saying things like macs "87 windows "(when there are like 77 less than that..LOLZ) and you have a discussion like a "grown up" and such are antagonistic....like i said just thinly veiled antagonism....you like your beef thinly sliced and thats cool....but your argument isnt....no matter how many forums you post it in, joe durant will never go down in history as a great ball striker....dude is impressive to watch..for his own reasons....but there are things that a good ball striker must fulfill and durant doesn't cut it....he is damn good and a good player...but your argument isnt it..especially dropping stats in the mix....if you don't understand where stats miss the mark when it comes to ball striking then we are both wasting our time here....mac is one of the great ball strikers in the
game....everyone who knows anything knows it...if you don't...maybe you will some day...guess they don't teach the important stuff in those PGMer classes...ZLOLLZZZ ZOMG
[/quote]

LOL zinger for weak cuts , and all along I thought windows had 7 versions

[PreppySlapCut]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1310711085' post='3393280']
preppy...valid and respectable wrxer... i understand if you were " in defense of Russc, who I believe was correct in questioning why we were viewing Mac as one of the all-time great ball-strikers."

but arent great ball strikers great ballstrikers? I just dont understand the interpretation of great ballstriker. Why would you bash somebody for their actions on the green when they are in the running for a title of "great ballstriker"?
[/quote]
I'm in no way bashing him for anything he did. I'm not bringing putting into this at all. I'm suggesting you can hit it great and still not dominate (hence my reference to Joe Durant, or a John Senden). However, the numbers don't back up the claim that Mac was, in his prime, a great ball-striker. He was long for his day, but he didn't hit it straight and he didn't hit a ton of greens. Stats can be mis-leading, but if you claim to have total control over a golf ball, shouldn't you be able to hit the ball on the green more often than those you're playing against? Or drive it close to as straight as those you're playing against? Some combination therein?

[PreppySlapCut]

[quote name='imstackedson' timestamp='1310736031' post='3393669']
well be honest with your self homie....you may saying like you don't want the confrontation but its just thinly veiled confrontational-ness and its obvious to all....saying things like macs "87 windows "(when there are like 77 less than that..LOLZ) and you have a discussion like a "grown up" and such are antagonistic....like i said just thinly veiled antagonism....you like your beef thinly sliced and thats cool....but your argument isnt....no matter how many forums you post it in, joe durant will never go down in history as a great ball striker....dude is impressive to watch..for his own reasons....but there are things that a good ball striker must fulfill and durant doesn't cut it....he is damn good and a good player...but your argument isnt it..especially dropping stats in the mix....if you don't understand where stats miss the mark when it comes to ball striking then we are both wasting our time here....mac is one of the great ball strikers in the game....everyone who knows anything knows it...if you don't...maybe you will some day...guess they don't teach the important stuff in those PGMer classes...ZLOLLZZZ ZOMG
[/quote]
I don't know where you got the idea that I was a PGM guy, or who you may be confusing me with on some other website you frequent. So if stats don't do it for you, what is the measure of being a great ball-striker? Is it being able to hit it where you want to all the time?

If player A only hits one shot all the time, but flags it. And player B compresses it more, flights it on all kinds of different trajectories and shapes it at will, but doesn't really hit it close, who is the better ball-striker? Did I not get the memo where golf ceased to be about hitting the ball to a target while on the course?

[varsityhacker]

A great ball striker is not always a great player and a great player is not always a great ball striker .

[hoganfan924]

How ironic that so many who ascribe to "Mankind's OBJECTIVE Research and Development," reject all OBJECTIVE measures of ballstriking prowess and embrace every mystical SUBJECTIVE measure they can latch onto. By every objective measure available from Mac's prime years, Mahaffy, Peete, Lietzke, Sutton, et. al. were superior ballstrikers. But we can't let facts get in the way of a good story, might not be good for business!

[Tiltswing]

[quote name='JD3' timestamp='1310723774' post='3393385']
[quote name='Tiltswing' timestamp='1310662383' post='3391181']
[quote name='JD3' timestamp='1308878625' post='3331358']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1308839817' post='3329671']
My opinions are my own. Geoff's criticism of Mac were relative to his 2006 swing only and he was very complimentary of the way he swung when he was on tour. Hmm, wonder where he got the '06 footage? But nice try mis-characterizing Geoff's beliefs and pigeon holing yourself. lol

But maybe Mac was [b][i]enjoying[/i][/b] hitting flyers from the fairway in '06?

As I said, his swing has evolved quite a bit over time and I don't think he's nearly as lateral now as he was in '06 when he was experimenting with what he termed "linear momentum transfer." The latest information that I have is that he's more back to his "online" swing, much closer to what he was doing in the late 80's.

Why don't you ask about "radius locks" and where Mac came up with that idea? lol
[/quote]
I know where you got it, no need to try and explain. Right out of the encyclopedia where he says something like "Mac's swing today is a poor representation of what it was on the regular tour, blah, blah, blah." So here we have a guy pushing 60, who any of Slicefixer guys over the age of 30 would die to have a swing like. And yet it's a "poor representation?" The slicefixer model (built on a very bad premise imo) is too in to out, requiring a massive "swing low and left "/stay in flexion compensation. Not something Mac has to do, and btw not something Hogan did either.
[/quote]

In flexion?: [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYxsxEamMJE&feature=channel_video_title"]http://www.youtube.c...nel_video_title[/url] . Looks like Spider has plenty of extension to me.
[/quote]
belt line leading shoulders shows more extension, look at segment with the iron comparison from behind camera view and freeze it in the follow through
[/quote]

Spider has plenty of extension with the driver in the first sequence, and still manages a great CP release. Keeping that in mind, the driver is the most difficult club to release CP, so your argument that SF's students need to stay in flexion to swing left as a result of an excessively CF approach is invalid. Yes, Spider does not extend his spine tremendously in the video filmed from the BO angle where he's hitting a short iron. A large degree of extension is not required with such a club, however, as the distance from the left shoulder to the club head is not very long when holding a short iron (especially when compared to a driver).

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='PreppySlapCut' timestamp='1310748290' post='3394056']
[quote name='imstackedson' timestamp='1310736031' post='3393669']
well be honest with your self homie....you may saying like you don't want the confrontation but its just thinly veiled confrontational-ness and its obvious to all....saying things like macs "87 windows "(when there are like 77 less than that..LOLZ) and you have a discussion like a "grown up" and such are antagonistic....like i said just thinly veiled antagonism....you like your beef thinly sliced and thats cool....but your argument isnt....no matter how many forums you post it in, joe durant will never go down in history as a great ball striker....dude is impressive to watch..for his own reasons....but there are things that a good ball striker must fulfill and durant doesn't cut it....he is damn good and a good player...but your argument isnt it..especially dropping stats in the mix....if you don't understand where stats miss the mark when it comes to ball striking then we are both wasting our time here....mac is one of the great ball strikers in the game....everyone who knows anything knows it...if you don't...maybe you will some day...guess they don't teach the important stuff in those PGMer classes...ZLOLLZZZ ZOMG
[/quote]
I don't know where you got the idea that I was a PGM guy, or who you may be confusing me with on some other website you frequent. So if stats don't do it for you, what is the measure of being a great ball-striker? Is it being able to hit it where you want to all the time?

If player A only hits one shot all the time, but flags it. And player B compresses it more, flights it on all kinds of different trajectories and shapes it at will, but doesn't really hit it close, who is the better ball-striker? Did I not get the memo where golf ceased to be about hitting the ball to a target while on the course?
[/quote]

Macs stats
year GIR% ranking distance ranking driving accuracy ranking
1983 64.4 t72 263.1 t38 62.3 t86
1984 64.7 t75 272.4 10 58.3 155
1985 68.9 13 276.1 4 62.3 108
1986 67.3 t40 277.3 8 58.3 t150
1987 68.3 t32 278.2 t4 59.9 t152
1988 61.4 t165 274.8 13 60 t136

Mac was consistently one of the worse putters on tour .If he was a better putter ,he would have won more.The question I have ,did he have bad putting stats because he was a poor putter or was he a poor putter because his approaches, often from the rough,were too far away from the hole.

[tembolo1284]

ick...not looking too sexy with those stats.

[ej002]

Mac's driver set up looks like Hogan, with the right foot dropped back.

His lefty swing is pretty sick. Blows my real lefty swing out of the water. lol

[JD3]

[quote name='Tiltswing' timestamp='1310754455' post='3394188']
[quote name='JD3' timestamp='1310723774' post='3393385']
[quote name='Tiltswing' timestamp='1310662383' post='3391181']
[quote name='JD3' timestamp='1308878625' post='3331358']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1308839817' post='3329671']
My opinions are my own. Geoff's criticism of Mac were relative to his 2006 swing only and he was very complimentary of the way he swung when he was on tour. Hmm, wonder where he got the '06 footage? But nice try mis-characterizing Geoff's beliefs and pigeon holing yourself. lol

But maybe Mac was [b][i]enjoying[/i][/b] hitting flyers from the fairway in '06?

As I said, his swing has evolved quite a bit over time and I don't think he's nearly as lateral now as he was in '06 when he was experimenting with what he termed "linear momentum transfer." The latest information that I have is that he's more back to his "online" swing, much closer to what he was doing in the late 80's.

Why don't you ask about "radius locks" and where Mac came up with that idea? lol
[/quote]
I know where you got it, no need to try and explain. Right out of the encyclopedia where he says something like "Mac's swing today is a poor representation of what it was on the regular tour, blah, blah, blah." So here we have a guy pushing 60, who any of Slicefixer guys over the age of 30 would die to have a swing like. And yet it's a "poor representation?" The slicefixer model (built on a very bad premise imo) is too in to out, requiring a massive "swing low and left "/stay in flexion compensation. Not something Mac has to do, and btw not something Hogan did either.
[/quote]

In flexion?: [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYxsxEamMJE&feature=channel_video_title"]http://www.youtube.c...nel_video_title[/url] . Looks like Spider has plenty of extension to me.
[/quote]
belt line leading shoulders shows more extension, look at segment with the iron comparison from behind camera view and freeze it in the follow through
[/quote]

Spider has plenty of extension with the driver in the first sequence, and still manages a great CP release. Keeping that in mind, the driver is the most difficult club to release CP, so your argument that SF's students need to stay in flexion to swing left as a result of an excessively CF approach is invalid. Yes, Spider does not extend his spine tremendously in the video filmed from the BO angle where he's hitting a short iron. A large degree of extension is not required with such a club, however, as the distance from the left shoulder to the club head is not very long when holding a short iron (especially when compared to a driver).
[/quote]
The most telling view was provided with irons from behind, and it showed Spider lacking vs Hogan. it looks like they're hitting mid irons. If someone extends well it will be apparent throughout the bag.

Btw, there were a lot of things I like about Spider's swing. And I understand he was a fine player and even finer person. Given the circumstances, I'm uncomfortable discussing him any further in this context.

[Tiltswing]

[/quote]
The most telling view was provided with irons from behind, and it showed Spider significantly lacking vs Hogan. it looks like they're hitting mid irons. If someone extends well it will be apparent throughout the bag.

Btw, I like Spider's swing, and I understand he was a fine player and even finer person. Given the circumstances, I'm uncomfortable discussing him any further in this context.
[/quote]


Virtually no one extends as well as Hogan, including Mac. I have seen footage of Mac in his prime up to modern day (seen him in person as well), and he does not extend as well as Hogan. Spider is extremely close to Hogan with the driver, though. More importantly, I don't think the fact that Spider doesn't extend his spine as much as Hogan with short and mid-irons shows any problems with Slicefixer's method. Based on my communication with SF, his posts here, and the high quality of his students' swings, he probably understands the golf swing about as well as anyone, and far more than most teachers/players.

[JOEGOLFWRX]

[quote name='PreppySlapCut' timestamp='1310748290' post='3394056']
If player A only hits one shot all the time, but flags it.

And player B compresses it more, flights it on all kinds of different trajectories and shapes it at will, but doesn't really hit it close, who is the better ball-striker?
[/quote]

if they both flag it, who's the better ball striker ? if you say player A your in the minority.

ball striking is ultimately about peer appreciation, ..see 2 minutes in ->

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rRO56M_e24[/media]

its how impressive is your long game ? with brownie points for more shots, and as you said under the gun performance. im guessing left/right handed bumps you up the list too.

[PreppySlapCut]

[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1310780076' post='3395232']
[quote name='PreppySlapCut' timestamp='1310748290' post='3394056']
If player A only hits one shot all the time, but flags it.

And player B compresses it more, flights it on all kinds of different trajectories and shapes it at will, but doesn't really hit it close, who is the better ball-striker?
[/quote]

if they both flag it, who's the better ball striker ? if you say player A your in the minority.

ball striking is ultimately about peer appreciation, ..see 2 minutes in ->

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rRO56M_e24[/media]

its how impressive is your long game ? with brownie points for more shots, and as you said under the gun performance. im guessing left/right handed bumps you up the list too.
[/quote]
Obviously, if they both flag it, the player with more variations wins. However, as we've seen through the stats, those variations don't do you a tremendous amount of good if you can't hit it straight off the tee or on the green more often than the other guys you're playing against. Being, at best, a top 30 ball-striker on Tour in your prime hardly qualifies you as one of the best ever.

Again, the fact that we're in this discussion shouldn't detract from the fact that the man is a genius, or that he can hit a tremendous variety of golf shots, etc. I like Mac's swing a lot. This is just stemming from the question of what makes someone a great ball striker.

[dlygrisse]

Probably the two people who could "flag" it more often than anyone in PGA Tour history (with most every club in the bag) and win on a consistent basis were Byron Nelson and Johnny Miller. They both swung in a pretty similar fashion yet no one teaches that style of swing any longer. FWIW

[JD3]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1310752811' post='3394095']
How ironic that so many who ascribe to "Mankind's OBJECTIVE Research and Development," reject all OBJECTIVE measures of ballstriking prowess and embrace every mystical SUBJECTIVE measure they can latch onto. By every objective measure available from Mac's prime years, Mahaffy, Peete, Lietzke, Sutton, et. al. were superior ballstrikers. But we can't let facts get in the way of a good story, might not be good for business!
[/quote]
I agree with this, kind of anyway; if you're going to make such a lofty claim you need #'s to back it up. However I think his swing now is better than it was during his tour years. But since he became a full time teacher it's unreasonable to think he can play an occasional event and do well.

[JOEGOLFWRX]

yeah, but ignoring mac for a minute (i shouldn't of put in the left/right bit, lol).

what im trying to say is if 2 guys have every single conceivable stat matching including wins, the guy with more options is [i]considered [/i]a greater ball striker, ...and options is only part of it, imo, there's things like how penetrating is the flight, etc. its hard to put a finger on it but the words meaning is how its used by golfers. and imo its about peer appreciation, recognition of how difficult it is to have your long game.

the statos confused the issue by trying to track the term, the list is always odd and contentious, its only real use is comparing the non contentious guys on the list, ..they should of just got the players to vote every year, ..'who's the greatest ballstriker this year?', ..the resultant list would be closer to the educated rubbernecking it means, imo.

sure ive heard the term used for club golfers, 'he's a 15 handicap, but he's a great ball striker for 15', lol.

mac confuses the issue even more because he has a transferable system, which he mostly came up with, which is an impressive approach to the long game. eg 2 identical macs, one cant explain it and the other can, the one who can shades it, imo, ..switching to lefty gets the casting vote of 'proof'.

thats how i always saw it anyway.

[dlygrisse]

I think you are all missing the point........in every sport the top performers aren't always the most technically perfect. Look at Baseball, Derek Jeter has a swing only he could use, Dirk Nowitzki has an unorthodox style and he was MVP of the Finals, Bret Favre has one of the worst throwing motions ever but holds all the lifetime records. Many of the guys who have perfect mechanics end up being coaches and teachers because they are students of the game but maybe not the most talented at least mentally or like O'Grady they have huge weaknesses in their game.

You can debate MORAD theories all you want ......but to discredit them because Mac was not the best player of his generation is not a very valid argument IMO, in fact O'Grady was a better player than most of the great teachers in history.

[JOEGOLFWRX]

hogans head and shoulders above everyone by my count anyway, lol,

arguably recognized as the greatest by the most, flagged it, had options, performed under the gun, could adapt it to broken up a body quickly (unlike most greats that lose their game after a small injury), and could explain it to others and create winners, ...who's second to one hundredth is almost irrelevant.

[PreppySlapCut]

[quote name='dlygrisse' timestamp='1310825718' post='3396116']
You can debate MORAD theories all you want ......but to discredit them because Mac was not the best player of his generation is not a very valid argument IMO, in fact O'Grady was a better player than most of the great teachers in history.
[/quote]
I don't think anyone here is really discrediting (or attempting to discredit) his MORAD theories. This just stemmed from looking at HIS swing and referring to him as one of the all-time great ball-strikers.

[dana dahlquist]

This thread is kinda crazy talk. His peers voted him as a great ball striker. I don't think anyone here including myself are his peers outside of fats

[PreppySlapCut]

[quote name='dana dahlquist' timestamp='1310835260' post='3396453']
This thread is kinda crazy talk. His peers voted him as a great ball striker. I don't think anyone here including myself are his peers outside of fats
[/quote]
Very true. But do you not feel that in order to be considered a great ball-striker you should have to back it up somewhere besides the range? I guess that's the point I'm trying to make, and I won't reiterate it further because everyone apparently has their own definition (which is obviously fine and neither are incorrect) as to what actually defines "great ball-striker?" To me there's a difference between showy and results.

(I also don't mean showy just for the sake of being showy, which is obviously NOT what Mac was going for.)

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='dlygrisse' timestamp='1310825718' post='3396116']
I think you are all missing the point........in every sport the top performers aren't always the most technically perfect. Look at Baseball, Derek Jeter has a swing only he could use, Dirk Nowitzki has an unorthodox style and he was MVP of the Finals, Bret Favre has one of the worst throwing motions ever but holds all the lifetime records. Many of the guys who have perfect mechanics end up being coaches and teachers because they are students of the game but maybe not the most talented at least mentally or like O'Grady they have huge weaknesses in their game.

You can debate MORAD theories all you want ......but to discredit them because Mac was not the best player of his generation is not a very valid argument IMO, in fact O'Grady was a better player than most of the great teachers in history.
[/quote
There is no doubt that Mac was a better player than most very good and great teachers.However this post is about "learning from his swing"so it is reasonable to examine whether his swing meets the standards that categorize the swings of great ball strikers.Maybe it does meet those standards ,even though the stats do not confirm it,but for most people it is impossible to learn from his 1980's swing ,because it is just not available for viewing.

[JD3]

[quote name='russc' timestamp='1310837853' post='3396521']
There is no doubt that Mac was a better player than most very good and great teachers.However this post is about "learning from his swing"so it is reasonable to examine whether his swing meets the standards that categorize the swings of great ball strikers.Maybe it does meet those standards ,even though the stats do not confirm it,but for most people it is impossible to learn from [b]his 1980's swing ,because it is just not available for viewing.[/b]
[/quote]
A few are out there

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTI97ayoJmM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7BL99n0sUQ

[JD3]

Some more

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=os0HGo1WGlM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=embLDGrypjw&feature=related

[genis]

Thanks chrisgolf. That footwork video has really helped. Slam the foot down and the rest is almost automatic. Great stuff!