Lie Angles-great ballstrikers

[macdubh]

I am 6'4" and play standard lie in mizuno's used to play 2* upright but since flattening my plane and getting more of a pivot driven swing and now flattening the lie I find that I am playing much less from left of the green. It's not hard to get on a lie board and get fitted properly. But I would certainly agree that off the rack clubs way too upright.

[pgolf22]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqN6Xv9MA8Y

[sdthorpe]

Thought you might like a post-visit report on getting my lies changed:

When I picked them up, 2* didn't look like near enough of a difference on the store carpet and mat. We ended up going to 4* flat on 4-9 and 5* flat on PW and AW!! Just to confirm that what I liked "visually" was do-able "on course", I took 'em straight to the range for the sharpie test, AND the ball flight "test"... According the lines the sharpie left behind on my club faces, I am good to go. The sharpie marks were very perpendicular to the groove lines on the face. I never thought a 6'3 guy could use that much change!!

Oh and, ball flight is good. Trajectory didn't change either way, but the ball was going a lot straighter... :-)

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='dlygrisse' timestamp='1344728501' post='5452154']
Okay, so would any disagree that Lee Westwood and Hunter Mahan are two of the better ball strikers on the tour today? Neither one are overly tall, both are very rotary in thier actions and neither would be considered flipper by any standard...are you with me so far?

From Pings website
Westwood-2.25 upright and longer than standard by .75" which effectivly makes them 3 1/2 upright!!!!!
Mahan-Blue dot .75 upright

Flat lie angles work great for some people...but only if they need them....it would be like saying everyone should wear a size 8 shoe because Ben Hogan wore a size 8 shoe.
[/quote]

Not to bump an old post, but westwood is a textbook flipper...

[jons1]

textbook flipper? your definition of textbook flipper is miles different that mine.

[Barnes5]

Interesting thread.
I had been fitted for Pings years ago, and kept with them, just upgrading to the next version. I currently play Ping G15 Black Dots.

I got fitted for AP2's a few days ago. I was surprised when the fitter told me I needed flatter clubs.
Ordered
712 AP2's
3-PW
-2* Flat
- 1/2" length
DG SL S300

And the other surprising thing to me was that he recommended two extra wraps of tape on my grip.

Counting the days until they arrive

[dlygrisse]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1359068807' post='6292009']
[quote name='dlygrisse' timestamp='1344728501' post='5452154']
Okay, so would any disagree that Lee Westwood and Hunter Mahan are two of the better ball strikers on the tour today? Neither one are overly tall, both are very rotary in thier actions and neither would be considered flipper by any standard...are you with me so far?

From Pings website
Westwood-2.25 upright and longer than standard by .75" which effectivly makes them 3 1/2 upright!!!!!
Mahan-Blue dot .75 upright

Flat lie angles work great for some people...but only if they need them....it would be like saying everyone should wear a size 8 shoe because Ben Hogan wore a size 8 shoe.
[/quote]

Not to bump an old post, but westwood is a textbook flipper...
[/quote]

[pinhigh27]

Not sure if I'm having a brain fart or what, but I googled westwood flip and there is quite a bit of traffic... Just past impact his club appears to be pointing straight left.... So?

[Crab Daddy]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=H2TdI1_EFJo

[Cwebb]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1359090702' post='6294153']
Not sure if I'm having a brain fart or what, but I googled westwood flip and there is quite a bit of traffic... Just past impact his club appears to be pointing straight left.... So?
[/quote]

In regards to his lie angles, his posture is relatively 'upright'. He addresses the ball with a bit more of an upright spine angle than some others and his hands and shaft are relatively 'high' at address as well. Then when returns through impact, his hands and the shaft return a little higher than where they were at address. The combination of these will usually call for more upright clubs, if you want to return the center of the sole square to the ground through impact.

I wouldn't call him "flipper" or consider him a player who has a really high rate of closure through impact, but he does swing more upright overall, so I can see how the upright lie angles make sense for him, since he's probably not trying to significantly change his swing at this point

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='Cwebb' timestamp='1359134894' post='6296517']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1359090702' post='6294153']
Not sure if I'm having a brain fart or what, but I googled westwood flip and there is quite a bit of traffic... Just past impact his club appears to be pointing straight left.... So?
[/quote]

In regards to his lie angles, his posture is relatively 'upright'. He addresses the ball with a bit more of an upright spine angle than some others and his hands and shaft are relatively 'high' at address as well. Then when returns through impact, his hands and the shaft return a little higher than where they were at address. The combination of these will usually call for more upright clubs, if you want to return the center of the sole square to the ground through impact.

I wouldn't call him "flipper" or consider him a player who has a really high rate of closure through impact, but he does swing more upright overall, so I can see how the upright lie angles make sense for him, since he's probably not trying to significantly change his swing at this point
[/quote]

yeah I take that back. I guess I heard someone say that a while back and assumed it to be true, but I have talked to some reputable sources(I asked iteach) lol, and I am in fact wrong. My bad.
Now to add to the thread, I play my irons 1.5 degrees flat and wedges 2.25, thinking about increasing this(I'm a hooker, not literally you sickos) to something like 3 on irons and 4 on wedges.

[cxx]

I thought when Nicklaus arrived, his upright swing and the towering height of his iron shots changed the desired swing model. Most modern swings look much more upright than Hogan or Player or Palmer for that matter.

[JLew]

I've seen a few references in here to Nicklaus and Tiger being 1-2 deg up... Does anyone know the lie angle of their 7 iron, for example? That relative measurement of "1 up" or "2 up" doesn't really mean anything, does it? Also, isn't it even likely that Nicklaus' "2 up" at the time was actually flatter than Tiger's "1 up" since the idea of "normal" has changed (even though there is no standard)?

Here's my situation - low single digit handicapper, 6'4". I used to be a sweeper and draw the ball, minimal or non-existent divots, flat swing plane. I bought a set of 2011 TM MB's and had them made +1" and 2 deg up (effectively 4 up with the added length), which was what my previous set supposedly was (TM R7 TP's). Over the last 2 seasons playing with them I've developed a very steep, upright swing and deeper divots. I was trying to get more compression and hit down and through it but the negative is that along with those things came an OTT move and early extension. Needless to say, the ability to draw the ball is completely gone and I'm not liking the way this is going.

I'm thinking about having the whole set bent 2-3 deg flat from where it currently is... I think that would make it a 61.5 deg 7 iron if I did 3 deg.

Any thoughts from the experts? My goal is to flatten out the swing a little and get back on a solid plane. The OTT and early extension should take care of themselves.

[Cold_Canadian]

I think tigers 7 iron is 61 degrees. 1 degree flat

[Faking-it-with-blades]

[quote name='Redjeep83' timestamp='1319660123' post='3722211']
[quote name='RightHandRough ' timestamp='1319658729' post='3722035']
[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/user/71802-tembolo1284/"][color="#353535"]tembolo1284[/color][/url]'s Comment on slicing would be my thought as well. Easy way for a company to add some game improvement. I'm tall 6'2", and a fairly upright swinger. I play stock mizuno's, and am thinking of getting them a degree or two flat.
[/quote]

yea mizunos are like the flattest standard lie angle out there. They are 1.5 degrees flatter than most companies like titleist. I think Im 1 degree flat on mizunos clubs. Titleist like 2.5 flatter
[/quote][quote name='Redjeep83' timestamp='1319660123' post='3722211']
[quote name='RightHandRough ' timestamp='1319658729' post='3722035']
[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/user/71802-tembolo1284/"][color="#353535"]tembolo1284[/color][/url]'s Comment on slicing would be my thought as well. Easy way for a company to add some game improvement. I'm tall 6'2", and a fairly upright swinger. I play stock mizuno's, and am thinking of getting them a degree or two flat.
[/quote]

yea mizunos are like the flattest standard lie angle out there. They are 1.5 degrees flatter than most companies like titleist. I think Im 1 degree flat on mizunos clubs. Titleist like 2.5 flatter
[/quote]

This post nails the exact reason I was Google-ing "golf iron lie angle". I currently own two sets of irons; Mizuno MP-64 and Titleist 710MB. I've been torn on which set I like better...was going to sell the titleist blades when i got the MP64s but I couldn't bring myself to do it, because there's something I really like about them.

That said, I've used the MB's the last couple times at the range and was somewhat confused as to why I was hitting a 5-iron right on line, but was constantly pulling my 9-iron significantly left of target. It was also nearly impossible to hit a decent fade without a really exaggerated cut swing, and it was hard to hit a SLIGHT draw.

After seeing this post, I checked the specs of the MBs vs the Mizzys and I guess this makes sense, given that the Titleists are 1.5* more upright than the Mizzys. In the longer irons, the more upright lie probably helps prevent leaking it right, but in the 6i-9i range I think I need to get the MBs flattened by about 2* (and my wedges -- Vokey -- probably need to be significantly flatter).

[Jericho]

I recently purchased an old Wilson blade 6-iron to mess around with at the range. Standard loft & length with lie angle is extremely flat compared to my modern clubs. When I took my stance with my normal 7-iron, the club sat flush as normal. Then when I took the flat blade and got into my stance, the toe was on the ground and the heel was up in the air. The only way to have the club sit flush was to greatly bend over. Felt like I was hitting a wedge.

For you guys that flatten your angle 4-5*, how does it affect your stance?

[Tony5]

Recently I have been working on getting my downswing on plane. Ive been using a casio high speed camera which is wonderful. Before working on my downswing watching my swing I would come into the ball very steep compared to the original plane. As weird as it sounds, this gave me a "standard" lie on most irons. Im about 5"9/ 5"10 so I consider myself to be normal height and I have a good address position (dont have the club really flat). Since Ive fixed my steep downswing with the help of my instructor it is parallel to the shaft plane line at address when watching on camera, maybe slightly above the line but parallel to it. Anyway, these are great changes to my swing and my ballstriking is much better as well as the depth of my divots is perfect.

 

So I got my lie angle checked after this change to my swing and I am like 2 degrees flat atleast, maybe 3 degrees on like titleist etc with more upright angles. My question is, why do companies make such upright lie angles as standard. I consider myself to be normal height.

 

I came across this article as well, just wanted your thoughts on it.

 

FLAT LIE ANGLES-

The Reason and Logic Of The Greats

 

I know from personal experience in a question asked directly to Lee Trevino that he used clubs that were at least 3 degrees flat in lie angle from the old standard.

 

Doug Sanders also informed me in the interview I recently did with him

(on page 2) that he had his clubs flattened down so the toe sat down and the heel would never strike the ground first

 

If we look at Ben Hogan's club that is in USGA Golf House Museum it is close to 6 or 7 degrees flat in lie angle when compared to clubs of the same length and loft of today.

 

 

If flat lie angles were the choice of the game's best ball strikers throughout history then WHY do manufacturers insist on putting upright lie angled clubs in the hands of golfer's today?

 

The upright clubs make the player come steeply into the ball on descent.

 

The upright clubs tell the body stall and insist that the hands flip through impact to try and square that upright lie angled club with the ground.

 

The upright club straightens the right arm away from the body and increases clubface roll throughout the shot making timing a huge problem.

 

Upright lie angles deteriorate the swing by not stressing the importance of swinging the golf club behind and around the body and rotating through impact with the correct body effort and sequence.

 

Too often we now see golfers throwing the club through impact- pushing the club head off to the right of the target or throwing the clubhead left of the target with their hand roll --flipping the club face over by hand action trying to correct the mistake.

 

Today's clubs should all come with a :warning label:

"Swing Deterioration And Poor Mechanics Possible By Using This Club"

 

Add the fact that the shafts are too long and the swingweights and overall club weights are too light and it is little wonder we don't see ball striking mastery on any level any longer.

 

Remember: Feedback of the club and the swing is necessary for improvement to take place.

That's why golfers are not improving.

They don't know the difference between a good strike or a bad strike of the ball because the permieter weighting and large sweet spots don't allow such reference.

The equipment golfers are using is NOT designed to help them adjust their swing to the correct efficient motion.

 

 

I am 5'9" and have my standard length 6 iron set at 57 degrees and a SW of D6. If you are going to learn to come into the ball on a shallow angle/path then flatter clubs are a necessity.

[jons1]

I don't want this to sound the wrong way, but I think Jack Nicklaus all but ruined the concept of a proper golf swing for generations. There's not too many golfers that can put the club in the positions he would, and hit the ball well. Yes, modern steel shafts allowed someone to swing that upright, but that doesn't mean it's correct. Players of the past all swung the club on a flatter, shallower, path into the ball. Yes, the wooden shafts demanded that, but you can also argue that because the equipment was so tough to work with, that it required a more appropriate path. With all that said, being extremely flat or upright isn't a formula for good ball striking, but if you're error on any side, it's on the flatter side.

[chrisfx811]

Dammit, I'm goin to buy a handful of ping demo irons and see if I like the flatter lies better.

[Cwebb]

[quote name='golfpros1' timestamp='1360808541' post='6424649']
I don't want this to sound the wrong way, but I think Jack Nicklaus all but ruined the concept of a proper golf swing for generations. There's not too many golfers that can put the club in the positions he would, and hit the ball well. Yes, modern steel shafts allowed someone to swing that upright, but that doesn't mean it's correct. Players of the past all swung the club on a flatter, shallower, path into the ball. Yes, the wooden shafts demanded that, but you can also argue that because the equipment was so tough to work with, that it required a more appropriate path. With all that said, being extremely flat or upright isn't a formula for good ball striking, but if you're error on any side, it's on the flatter side.
[/quote]

Another factor that contributed to so many of the historic players learning a flat plane that resulted in a shallow angle of attack, was that most of the irons back then, literally had about zero effective bounce on the sole. The sole designs were so thin and so squared off and sharp, that if you didn't come into impact with a shallow AOA, you would stick the club in the ground.

[Cwebb]

[quote name='Jericho' timestamp='1360788789' post='6422591']
I recently purchased an old Wilson blade 6-iron to mess around with at the range. Standard loft & length with lie angle is extremely flat compared to my modern clubs. When I took my stance with my normal 7-iron, the club sat flush as normal. Then when I took the flat blade and got into my stance, the toe was on the ground and the heel was up in the air. The only way to have the club sit flush was to greatly bend over. Felt like I was hitting a wedge.

For you guys that flatten your angle 4-5*, how does it affect your stance?
[/quote]

If our ideal posture, assuming we know what that is, has the club resting towards the toe at address, then we've gone too flat for this "concept". It would never make sense to have our irons resting towards the toe at address.....unless for some odd reason, someone is trying to groove a way under plane swing that returns the shaft flatter to impact than where they started it at address. Considering that only a handful of the very best ballstrikers are able to "plane the shaft" back through where it started,....toe down at address doesn't make sense.

The real problem in terms of promoting a steep swing plane with too upright lie angles, are the players that are in their ideal address position with the toe sticking way up. There are many players who have ended up with this after a lie board fitting

[ChrisX831]

I've always wondered about this, and I've never gotten the correct answer.

When I ordered my new TM clubs, at a demo day, some guy put me on a lie board with a completely standard TM TP MC, and he told me I needed it 3* upright. I placed an order for + 1" and 3* upright clubs. I'm only 6'1 and at the time I was VERY over the top, I've since improved, but I'm still a little OTT. It is only $25 to get them bent, should I do it to force me to strike the ball better? It's really irritating me as my new miss is a big hook.

[InaSilentWay]

How about the length of the clubs? I recently received 50 year old clubs and the shafts are one inch shorter than modern clubs. Looks like original leather grips so I assume the shafts are original. Does a shorter shaft make the effective lie angles flatter or steeper?

[Jericho]

[quote name='Cwebb' timestamp='1360815100' post='6425459']
[quote name='Jericho' timestamp='1360788789' post='6422591']
I recently purchased an old Wilson blade 6-iron to mess around with at the range. Standard loft & length with lie angle is extremely flat compared to my modern clubs. When I took my stance with my normal 7-iron, the club sat flush as normal. Then when I took the flat blade and got into my stance, the toe was on the ground and the heel was up in the air. The only way to have the club sit flush was to greatly bend over. Felt like I was hitting a wedge.

For you guys that flatten your angle 4-5*, how does it affect your stance?
[/quote]

If our ideal posture, assuming we know what that is, has the club resting towards the toe at address, then we've gone too flat for this "concept". It would never make sense to have our irons resting towards the toe at address.....unless for some odd reason, someone is trying to groove a way under plane swing that returns the shaft flatter to impact than where they started it at address. Considering that only a handful of the very best ballstrikers are able to "plane the shaft" back through where it started,....toe down at address doesn't make sense.

The real problem in terms of promoting a steep swing plane with too upright lie angles, are the players that are in their ideal address position with the toe sticking way up. There are many players who have ended up with this after a lie board fitting
[/quote]

I understand we don't want the toe resting on the ground with the heel up in the air. I'm just saying that with an extremely flat club, my stance was greatly affected. I'm 6'2" and when sitting flush, the handle was so low that my arms couldn't reach without greatly changing my posture.

There lies the conundrum. Flatter angles make the shaft closer to the ground (when sitting flush), thus one could conceivably need longer shafts...but the longer the shaft the higher the lie angle.

[StuartRS]

I had a JPX 800 gap wedge a while back that I picked up as I was looking for a 4-pw set.

The gap wedge I believe was 63* lie angle, and in my standard swing I would pull it left, or push it right for fear of going left. To hit it well and extremely accurately, I had to first improve my body angles and get my arms hanging down and on impact/follow through I have the feel of the hands staying low and then exiting left around my body. I hit a lot of fantastic shots that day, but after deciding not to get the irons, sold the gap wedge.

It had slipped my memory, until I stumbled upon this post today whilst asking a question about posture.

I suppose the question for me is whether I could do this consistently with all the clubs rather than just a wedge, without months and months of beating balls?

[Cwebb]

[quote name='Jericho' timestamp='1360850712' post='6426719']
[quote name='Cwebb' timestamp='1360815100' post='6425459']

If our ideal posture, assuming we know what that is, has the club resting towards the toe at address, then we've gone too flat for this "concept". It would never make sense to have our irons resting towards the toe at address.....unless for some odd reason, someone is trying to groove a way under plane swing that returns the shaft flatter to impact than where they started it at address. Considering that only a handful of the very best ballstrikers are able to "plane the shaft" back through where it started,....toe down at address doesn't make sense.

The real problem in terms of promoting a steep swing plane with too upright lie angles, are the players that are in their ideal address position with the toe sticking way up. There are many players who have ended up with this after a lie board fitting
[/quote]

I understand we don't want the toe resting on the ground with the heel up in the air. I'm just saying that with an extremely flat club, my stance was greatly affected. I'm 6'2" and when sitting flush, the handle was so low that my arms couldn't reach without greatly changing my posture.

There lies the conundrum. Flatter angles make the shaft closer to the ground (when sitting flush), thus one could conceivably need longer shafts...but the longer the shaft the higher the lie angle.
[/quote]

At your height, you're probably not going to really need an 'extremely flat' club. Although releatively speaking, to what many have been used to looking at and playing with, something that's even just "today's standard" could seem very flat at first. The odds of you needing lies that are 3* flat for example, are very slim. At the other end, 3-4* upright probably won't do your swing plane any good, in terms of what it promotes and how it effects swing motion.

Settle in with what length is a good fit for your arm length ("wrist to floor") and posture first, then decide what you want to try with lie angles. It's a good idea to set a camera down on the floor to get the most accurate view of how your clubs are sitting at any given length and lie.

As for what a flatter lie can promote at address,... for me I use it make sure that my left arm doesn't get to "relaxed" with too much bend in the elbow at address. If this happens, it brings the handle up and makes the club sit more flat than I want it to. Also use it for ideal spine angle. If I don't set enough spine angle or stand too upright, then the club will sit too flat or towards the toe side

[Cwebb]

[quote name='StuartRS' timestamp='1360858165' post='6427695']

I suppose the question for me is whether I could do this consistently with all the clubs rather than just a wedge, without months and months of beating balls?
[/quote]

There's only one way to find out for sure. You have to test and experiment.

Not every player can stay down and on plane with their longer clubs as compared to a wedge shot, for various reasons. WIth this in mind, you can always go to .5* lie increments or .75* in the longer clubs, instead of maintaining the older traditional standard of a 1* increment between clubs. This would produce longer clubs that are more upright in proportion to your wedges

[StuartRS]

[quote name='Cwebb' timestamp='1360859840' post='6427955']
[quote name='StuartRS' timestamp='1360858165' post='6427695']

I suppose the question for me is whether I could do this consistently with all the clubs rather than just a wedge, without months and months of beating balls?
[/quote]

There's only one way to find out for sure. You have to test and experiment.

Not every player can stay down and on plane with their longer clubs as compared to a wedge shot, for various reasons. WIth this in mind, you can always go to .5* lie increments or .75* in the longer clubs, instead of maintaining the older traditional standard of a 1* increment between clubs. This would produce longer clubs that are more upright in proportion to your wedges
[/quote]

No, your right, I will only find out once I get out there and try. I hope it does work as it was a great session ball striking wise, but I will keep the lie angle point in mind. Thanks

[braveheart]

[quote name='MWM400' timestamp='1344351380' post='5422960']
Looks like someone bumped this thread. Searching through the archives, this and other threads led me to flatten the lie angle of my clubs. I was struggling and the ball marks were always on the inside of my clubhead. I think I was beginning to attempt adjustments to my swing to compensate. I finally decided to just have them bent a couple degrees flat to see if that made a difference.

I took them to a guy that was recommended to me and he went club by club on a lie board and sure enough I needed them flatter. We kept going until I was in the middle of the face. It wound up being 3.5* flatter than standard (although, I play AP2s and they are a bit more upright and slightly longer than most). He told me to play them for a few weeks before I decide for sure if this is the setup I want.

I've been to the range 4 times and played twice since. Without really changing anything in my swing, I'm not striping the ball. It made a huge difference to me.
[/quote]
Somewhat similar findings initially make me question whether upright lie angle works for me. I am 6'1", WTF 36.5. Have been using Titleist AP1 710 1/2" longer and 2* upright lie angles. I find my ball marks come close to the heel side and I get a case of the s----ks at times. I hit more push/slices now. I am checking out a set of Ping i10s purple dot -1.5 flat this Monday to see what is best for me . Maybe something in between will be better. Very interesting thread guys.

[thekru]

[quote name='braveheart' timestamp='1362247673' post='6533855']
[quote name='MWM400' timestamp='1344351380' post='5422960']
Looks like someone bumped this thread. Searching through the archives, this and other threads led me to flatten the lie angle of my clubs. I was struggling and the ball marks were always on the inside of my clubhead. I think I was beginning to attempt adjustments to my swing to compensate. I finally decided to just have them bent a couple degrees flat to see if that made a difference.

I took them to a guy that was recommended to me and he went club by club on a lie board and sure enough I needed them flatter. We kept going until I was in the middle of the face. It wound up being 3.5* flatter than standard (although, I play AP2s and they are a bit more upright and slightly longer than most). He told me to play them for a few weeks before I decide for sure if this is the setup I want.

I've been to the range 4 times and played twice since. Without really changing anything in my swing, I'm not striping the ball. It made a huge difference to me.
[/quote]
Somewhat similar findings initially make me question whether upright lie angle works for me. I am 6'1", WTF 36.5. Have been using Titleist AP1 710 1/2" longer and 2* upright lie angles. I find my ball marks come close to the heel side and I get a case of the s----ks at times. I hit more push/slices now. I am checking out a set of Ping i10s purple dot -1.5 flat this Monday to see what is best for me . Maybe something in between will be better. Very interesting thread guys.
[/quote]
Have you been fitted with those lie angles? Off the rack Titleist AP2 7-iron is 63*, that is even more up than black dot Ping I20's and 2.5* more upright than a Mizuno MP standard 7-iron.

I am playing the AP 2's 1* flat and I am 5' 10". It has been said a lot on this site, "standard lie angle means nothing".

You better get someone to take a close look at your swing and have them give you the [u][b]lie angle[/b][/u] they recommend. Don't let them tell you, "you need clubs 2* flat or 2* up". That would be based on your current clubs only! You need to know the lie angle. It is very different based on the manufacturer.