Lie Angles-great ballstrikers

[dlygrisse]

This is an interesting thread and the flat lie angle topic has come up many times on this forum and on other sites as well. There is obviously some benefits to going flatter but every time I see that someone has improved their ball striking my first thought is how tall are they and how long are their arms? Wrist to floor measurement.

Hogan played pretty flat clubs........but remember he was 5' 8" and seemed to have very long arms for his build and was fighting a hook, it would make perfect sense for him to go flat. I myself have always gone 2* up an am 6' tall with pretty short arms and a 36.5" WTF measurement, I am sure if I stood next to Ben Hogan his arms would hang a good 6-8 inches closer to the ground than mine....

Do you consider Tiger Woods in his prime a great ball striker with the irons....I know I do.....he is 1* up, Nicklaus flushed his irons and wore the sweet spots out, he was 5'11" in his prime and played 2 up.

My point is the style of swing you use along with your build has a lot to do with it....if you are more rotary and swing like Trevino or even Zach Johnson then you probably need to go flatter, if you swing more like Tiger in his prime or even a Tom Watson or Jack Nicklaus you will probably need to go more upright. Stewart Cink won the Open with irons that were 5* up in the long irons, of course he is 6'4".....

Personally I think most people should start with static fitting and after they have developed their swing and decided what kind of action they want to work on then they should flatten only if they want to develop a swing that suits that type of action.....flatter clubs will help if and only if you are working on developing they type of swing that suits those clubs. (chicken vs. egg) sometimes the chicken comes before the egg, sometimes not......

Just some food for thought....we are all different.....and it just depends....

[bogeypro]

[quote name='dlygrisse' timestamp='1321459337' post='3807703']
This is an interesting thread and the flat lie angle topic has come up many times on this forum and on other sites as well. There is obviously some benefits to going flatter but every time I see that someone has improved their ball striking my first thought is how tall are they and how long are their arms? Wrist to floor measurement.

Hogan played pretty flat clubs........but remember he was 5' 8" and seemed to have very long arms for his build and was fighting a hook, it would make perfect sense for him to go flat. I myself have always gone 2* up an am 6' tall with pretty short arms and a 36.5" WTF measurement, I am sure if I stood next to Ben Hogan his arms would hang a good 6-8 inches closer to the ground than mine....

Do you consider Tiger Woods in his prime a great ball striker with the irons....I know I do.....he is 1* up, Nicklaus flushed his irons and wore the sweet spots out, he was 5'11" in his prime and played 2 up.

My point is the style of swing you use along with your build has a lot to do with it....if you are more rotary and swing like Trevino or even Zach Johnson then you probably need to go flatter, if you swing more like Tiger in his prime or even a Tom Watson or Jack Nicklaus you will probably need to go more upright. Stewart Cink won the Open with irons that were 5* up in the long irons, of course he is 6'4".....

Personally I think most people should start with static fitting and after they have developed their swing and decided what kind of action they want to work on then they should flatten only if they want to develop a swing that suits that type of action.....flatter clubs will help if and only if you are working on developing they type of swing that suits those clubs. (chicken vs. egg) sometimes the chicken comes before the egg, sometimes not......

Just some food for thought....we are all different.....and it just depends....
[/quote]


Great!

[SpeedyPro]

[quote name='dlygrisse' timestamp='1321459337' post='3807703']
This is an interesting thread and the flat lie angle topic has come up many times on this forum and on other sites as well. There is obviously some benefits to going flatter but every time I see that someone has improved their ball striking my first thought is how tall are they and how long are their arms? Wrist to floor measurement.

Hogan played pretty flat clubs........but remember he was 5' 8" and seemed to have very long arms for his build and was fighting a hook, it would make perfect sense for him to go flat. I myself have always gone 2* up an am 6' tall with pretty short arms and a 36.5" WTF measurement, I am sure if I stood next to Ben Hogan his arms would hang a good 6-8 inches closer to the ground than mine....

Do you consider Tiger Woods in his prime a great ball striker with the irons....I know I do.....he is 1* up, Nicklaus flushed his irons and wore the sweet spots out, he was 5'11" in his prime and played 2 up.

My point is the style of swing you use along with your build has a lot to do with it....if you are more rotary and swing like Trevino or even Zach Johnson then you probably need to go flatter, if you swing more like Tiger in his prime or even a Tom Watson or Jack Nicklaus you will probably need to go more upright. Stewart Cink won the Open with irons that were 5* up in the long irons, of course he is 6'4".....

Personally I think most people should start with static fitting and after they have developed their swing and decided what kind of action they want to work on then they should flatten only if they want to develop a swing that suits that type of action.....flatter clubs will help if and only if you are working on developing they type of swing that suits those clubs. (chicken vs. egg) sometimes the chicken comes before the egg, sometimes not......

Just some food for thought....we are all different.....and it just depends....
[/quote]

What do you mean by Jack playing 2 up and Ben playing flat? Is the lie angle of those players relative to stock lie angle or relative to their static fitted lie angle?

[gir2]

When I first started getting into the game, I went and got a set of ping i3+'s. I went to Pings website and did their online fitting, and they reccomended 2 degrees upright. When I first got the clubs, I assumed they were fit correctly for me and I setup with the club soled flat on the ground. In order to get that upright club soled flat on the ground I ended up having to stand fairly close to the ball. Eventually this caused me to swing OTT because standing so close to the ball the only space I had to swing was OTT. I ended up developing a severe and chronic OTT move that IMO all started as a result of the upright lie angles that were supposedly fit to me.

I've now spent the last year or so working to get rid of the OTT move and part of that has been standing further from the ball and coming in on a shallower plane. I cannot come in shallow with the toe sticking up in the air. It's like trying to hit an upright iron off your knees, that toe up in the air just isn't going to work.

I'm now experimenting with some flatter lie angles to facilitate a flatter swing and recently bent a Titleist 690 mb iron 6 degrees flat. The guy bending it gave me the bit about how I would probably start leaving it out to the right. But I can hit a nice high draw with it no problem.

[jrich99]

I am 6'0" and I play Mizuno MP68's bent 5 degrees flat. I have an old Macgregor 3 iron I bent 10 degrees flat that I hit quite well too. There is really some great logic behind flat lies, and I'm certainly no stranger to that school of thought.

[ERdiesel]

[quote name='jrich99' timestamp='1321592517' post='3816769']
I am 6'0" and I play Mizuno MP68's bent 5 degrees flat. I have an old Macgregor 3 iron I bent 10 degrees flat that I hit quite well too. There is really some great logic behind flat lies, and I'm certainly no stranger to that school of thought.
[/quote]



Resurrecting an old thread here................

I'm 6 ft too with 68's as well but playing standard mizzy lie angles (shafts +1/4). Out of curiosity, what is your wrist to floor measurement? Handicap?

I'm also thinking of going a little flatter, either 1* or 2* flatter.

[rgk5]

Let us not forget that Hogan had extraordinarily long arms, necessitating a much flatter lie angle.

[Cwebb]

If you do a good static fitting, making sure you get into your perfect posture and distance from the ball, it probably would never make sense to go flatter than what your ideal setup incicates for a lie fit.

The reason I bring this up is that it sounds like some are just "randomly" bending a club extremely flat to "work on a better plane" in their swing. In other words, it wouldn't make sense to get into your perfect setup at address and have your club sitting 3* toe down. If you're able to return to that exact position that you started (planing the shaft), you'd have the face aimed out to the right and the sole interacting with the turf in a less than ideal way.

[bortass]

[quote name='Cwebb' timestamp='1332173878' post='4536097']
If you do a good static fitting, making sure you get into your perfect posture and distance from the ball, it probably would never make sense to go flatter than what your ideal setup incicates for a lie fit.

The reason I bring this up is that it sounds like some are just "randomly" bending a club extremely flat to "work on a better plane" in their swing. In other words, it wouldn't make sense to get into your perfect setup at address and have your club sitting 3* toe down. If you're able to return to that exact position that you started (planing the shaft), you'd have the face aimed out to the right and the sole interacting with the turf in a less than ideal way.
[/quote]



My irons were changed by 8* last year. I started the year with +5 upright. I had a fitting and they were bent to +3, later in the year I had them bent to +0 and after the season they were bent to -2. I've been working on my swing for a few years and last year the pro I work with started me down the path of a flatter swing. I don't know what exactly happened but near the end of the year before going to -2, I was hitting my irons better then ever. We're working on converting me to more of a 1 plane swing and flatter clubs mesh with that better.

The bend to 0 and then -2 were not based on a fitting. I did it to help learn a flatter swing. I'm not saying that there is much logic in that, just what I did and for me it seems to be working.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='Redjeep83' timestamp='1319655740' post='3721715']
Recently I have been working on getting my downswing on plane. Ive been using a casio high speed camera which is wonderful. Before working on my downswing watching my swing I would come into the ball very steep compared to the original plane. As weird as it sounds, this gave me a "standard" lie on most irons. Im about 5"9/ 5"10 so I consider myself to be normal height and I have a good address position (dont have the club really flat). Since Ive fixed my steep downswing with the help of my instructor it is parallel to the shaft plane line at address when watching on camera, maybe slightly above the line but parallel to it. Anyway, these are great changes to my swing and my ballstriking is much better as well as the depth of my divots is perfect.

So I got my lie angle checked after this change to my swing and I am like 2 degrees flat atleast, maybe 3 degrees on like titleist etc with more upright angles. My question is, why do companies make such upright lie angles as standard. I consider myself to be normal height.

I came across this article as well, just wanted your thoughts on it.

[b]FLAT LIE ANGLES-
The Reason and Logic Of The Greats[/b]

I know from personal experience in a question asked directly to Lee Trevino that he used clubs that were at least 3 degrees flat in lie angle from the old standard.

Doug Sanders also informed me in the interview I recently did with him
(on page 2) that he had his clubs flattened down so the toe sat down and the heel would never strike the ground first

If we look at Ben Hogan's club that is in USGA Golf House Museum it is close to 6 or 7 degrees flat in lie angle when compared to clubs of the same length and loft of today.

If flat lie angles were the choice of the game's best ball strikers throughout history then WHY do manufacturers insist on putting upright lie angled clubs in the hands of golfer's today?

The upright clubs make the player come steeply into the ball on descent.

The upright clubs tell the body stall and insist that the hands flip through impact to try and square that upright lie angled club with the ground.

The upright club straightens the right arm away from the body and increases clubface roll throughout the shot making timing a huge problem.

Upright lie angles deteriorate the swing by not stressing the importance of swinging the golf club behind and around the body and rotating through impact with the correct body effort and sequence.

Too often we now see golfers throwing the club through impact- pushing the club head off to the right of the target or throwing the clubhead left of the target with their hand roll --flipping the club face over by hand action trying to correct the mistake.

Today's clubs should all come with a :warning label:
"Swing Deterioration And Poor Mechanics Possible By Using This Club"

Add the fact that the shafts are too long and the swingweights and overall club weights are too light and it is little wonder we don't see ball striking mastery on any level any longer.

Remember: Feedback of the club and the swing is necessary for improvement to take place.
That's why golfers are not improving.
They don't know the difference between a good strike or a bad strike of the ball because the permieter weighting and large sweet spots don't allow such reference.
The equipment golfers are using is NOT designed to help them adjust their swing to the correct efficient motion.
[/quote]

I suspect upright lie angles make the beginner feel better about the learning process. Also, those lie angles and stronger lofts are what allowed more people to take up the game.

Very few beginners have flat swing planes, even years back; reason why upright came about. Back in the 50's - 70's when OEM's were making flat lie angled irons, many pro golfers chose to have their irons made more upright, because it was easier then changing swing plane.

What you did is unusual today. As most golfer improve, they seldom consider flatten their swing plane. Those that do, realize that flattening their swing plane improves ball striking and distance, but it's more difficult to spin the ball thanks to the angle at impact. IMO stronger lie angles also allowed stronger lofts to come into existance.

[bepo]

I read this thread last week and gave the sharpie trick a try. I'm 6'3" with a 35.5" WTF measurement and currently playing clubs +1" and 2* upright. I'm trying to flatten my swing and make more of a one plane motion with less hands.

No matter what I did I could not come through impact flatter, every single mark was perfectly vertical. I setup with the club at a right angle to my spine (~54* to the ground) but come into impact at 64*. Looking at video I'm losing my spine angle in order to steepen the shaft. I can't tell if I'm correcting to match the lie angle or if that's just as flat as I can get. I'm going to try and get a spare club bent a few degrees flat and see what the marks look like. I either need to flatten the shaft at impact or switch swing philosophies because making a flat swing with a steep downswing is no good.

[Sean2]

I'm 6'5" with a 38.5" wrist to floor. The Ping on-line fitting recommended maroon dot, which is 4.5º upright, but when I had my Ping nFlight fitting, I came out Yellow dot, which is 1.5º upright.

[mikpga]

I know that Nike, specifically The Oven, tests lie angle through a perpindicular sharpie line on the ball. Perpinidicular to the ground btw.

They no longer use lie boards.

[pingfool]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1332196121' post='4538575']
I'm 6'5" with a 38.5" wrist to floor. The Ping on-line fitting recommended maroon dot, which is 4.5º upright, but when I had my Ping nFlight fitting, I came out Yellow dot, which is 1.5º upright.
[/quote]


this is where dynamic fitting -- and your ballflight -- comes into play.
if you like ballflight w/ yellow dot -- that is your fit.

ping static fitting -- relative to chart -- is only a baseline starting point.

ALWAYS DEFER TO BALLFLIGHT!

[Tupperwolf]

I have played with 2* upright clubs for a while now. I have had a set of Taylormade RAC TP irons hanging around that are standard L/L/L and I've always considered them too flat. Long story short I have been doing a swing change incorporating more Slicefixer and S&T elements and put the too-flat irons in the bag. Never struck the ball more consistently. I can go at it hard and know that my miss will be a tiny tiny fade and I haven't missed a shot left in a while. I know that lots of Slicefixer students end up flattening their irons so it tells me I'm on the right track with a flatter lie.

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='tmfool ' timestamp='1332285482' post='4545938']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1332196121' post='4538575']
I'm 6'5" with a 38.5" wrist to floor. The Ping on-line fitting recommended maroon dot, which is 4.5º upright, but when I had my Ping nFlight fitting, I came out Yellow dot, which is 1.5º upright.
[/quote]


this is where dynamic fitting -- and your ballflight -- comes into play.
if you like ballflight w/ yellow dot -- that is your fit.

ping static fitting -- relative to chart --[b][size="3"] is only a baseline starting point.[/size][/b]

ALWAYS DEFER TO BALLFLIGHT!
[/quote]

what you are trying to do with your baseline also is a determining factor in what lie angle you like. I think it is good to understand how you swing and what you are working toward. I just had my PW, SW and LW bent to 3 degrees flat from std lie. I may go 3 degrees flat on everything. Maybe flatter. we will see in a few months

[DonD]

I understand conceptually why a dynamic fitting would be preferable to a static fitting - "always defering to ball flight," as you put it - but wouldn't that only be the case if you are satisfied with your swing as it is? In other words, isn't fitting your clubs' lie angles to your current swing only going to serve to "enable" whatever move you're currently making? For example, in my case, my move tends to be more over the top than I want it to be...wouldn't using clubs adjusted based on that swing (presumably more upright clubs) just keep me swinging "too upright?" I wonder if clubs with lie angles based on a static fitting - I am about 5'8" and have pretty long arms, so I bet a static fitting would suggest a flatter lie angle for me - might actually encourage me to make a better swing.

[quote name='tmfool ' timestamp='1332285482' post='4545938']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1332196121' post='4538575']
I'm 6'5" with a 38.5" wrist to floor. The Ping on-line fitting recommended maroon dot, which is 4.5º upright, but when I had my Ping nFlight fitting, I came out Yellow dot, which is 1.5º upright.
[/quote]


this is where dynamic fitting -- and your ballflight -- comes into play.
if you like ballflight w/ yellow dot -- that is your fit.

ping static fitting -- relative to chart -- is only a baseline starting point.

ALWAYS DEFER TO BALLFLIGHT!
[/quote]

[big yellow]

I'm 5'8" and plays 2* flat with MP60 and MP53.

[quote name='bogeypro' timestamp='1320293824' post='3753331']
[quote name='ev0six' timestamp='1320228611' post='3749683']
I think the "average height standard" that manufactures decide is pretty bad too. I'm 5'7" but for all my titleist blades (680/695/710) i have always asked for 3* to 3.5* flat but titleist doesn't recommend it and suggests 2* flat at most. Usually i end up taking it somewhere to get bent the extra 1-1.5 deg.
[/quote]

Perhaps your clubs are too long for you. That is very flat.
[/quote]

[soloredd]

I'm 5'10'' and had my Cally Diablo Forged dynamically fit for a 2* up & +1/2". That was two years ago and when I got fit, I was hitting on the toe everytime. I have made some swing changes since then so I went and had my PW, 7 iron, and 5 iron checked on a lie board two weeks ago and while I was striking the ball in the same spot on the club face, every time my club came through on the heel. I wouldn't say severely but definitely noticeable to where the guy told me I should try going to 1* or even std. I still haven't made the change yet but am wondering what this all means? Does this mean I've flattened my plane on the downswing? Kind of confused.

[geesecougar2]

I don't know about "great" ballstrikers, but I recall reading an article years back in Golf Digest that most PGA Tour players have slightly upright lie angles, with them citing Jim Furyk and Tiger as examples. Versatility for different shots and from different lies should play a role as well IMO. Perhaps the correlation that the OP sees between great players and flatter lie angles have more to do with physical traits like wrist-to-floor being conducive to great ballstriking, than the lie angles in and of themselves.

I've always played flat lie angles myself (Ping static fit to orange dot) but have always had more feel for the clubface when I experimented with going a bit more upright.

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='soloredd' timestamp='1332302852' post='4548074']
I'm 5'10'' and had my Cally Diablo Forged dynamically fit for a 2* up & +1/2". That was two years ago and when I got fit, I was hitting on the toe everytime. I have made some swing changes since then so I went and had my PW, 7 iron, and 5 iron checked on a lie board two weeks ago and while I was striking the ball in the same spot on the club face, every time my club came through on the heel. I wouldn't say severely but definitely noticeable to where the guy told me I should try going to 1* or even std. I still haven't made the change yet but am wondering what this all means? Does this mean I've flattened my plane on the downswing? Kind of confused.
[/quote]

yes. I would try 1* flat from std (3* flat from you current setup). Just one club, and check it again.

[soloredd]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1332316005' post='4548574']
[quote name='soloredd' timestamp='1332302852' post='4548074']
I'm 5'10'' and had my Cally Diablo Forged dynamically fit for a 2* up & +1/2". That was two years ago and when I got fit, I was hitting on the toe everytime. I have made some swing changes since then so I went and had my PW, 7 iron, and 5 iron checked on a lie board two weeks ago and while I was striking the ball in the same spot on the club face, every time my club came through on the heel. I wouldn't say severely but definitely noticeable to where the guy told me I should try going to 1* or even std. I still haven't made the change yet but am wondering what this all means? Does this mean I've flattened my plane on the downswing? Kind of confused.
[/quote]

yes. I would try 1* flat from std (3* flat from you current setup). Just one club, and check it again.
[/quote]

Thanks a lot! Going to give this a try, kind of hesitant as 2-3* seems like a lot.

So I guess my next question is this: how will my ball flight change? If I'm already hitting in the sweet spot of the club, what will flattening the club do to my contact and ball flight?

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='soloredd' timestamp='1332428333' post='4556396']
[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1332316005' post='4548574']
[quote name='soloredd' timestamp='1332302852' post='4548074']
I'm 5'10'' and had my Cally Diablo Forged dynamically fit for a 2* up & +1/2". That was two years ago and when I got fit, I was hitting on the toe everytime. I have made some swing changes since then so I went and had my PW, 7 iron, and 5 iron checked on a lie board two weeks ago and while I was striking the ball in the same spot on the club face, every time my club came through on the heel. I wouldn't say severely but definitely noticeable to where the guy told me I should try going to 1* or even std. I still haven't made the change yet but am wondering what this all means? Does this mean I've flattened my plane on the downswing? Kind of confused.
[/quote]

yes. I would try 1* flat from std (3* flat from you current setup). Just one club, and check it again.
[/quote]

Thanks a lot! Going to give this a try, kind of hesitant as 2-3* seems like a lot.

So I guess my next question is this: how will my ball flight change? If I'm already hitting in the sweet spot of the club, what will flattening the club do to my contact and ball flight?
[/quote]

i think you should hit it slightly higher because the heel hitting first would kinda close the face. Im actually working on flattening the shaft on the downswing too. Just had my PW SW and LW bent to 3 degrees flat. all others are at 2 for now

get a camera and set it up with a good dtl angle. you will be able to tell if you flattened the shaft coming down or not. Thats the trick to making adjustments. Try a club or two and do some good testing at the range. Dont just bend the whole set at once. You might not like it

[Ldog]

Interesting perspective / information. Watched the videos and it all makes sense. I really appreciate the info that I see on this site!

My question is this - It appears that most of the swing examples and illustrations are "one plane." I seem to be more in the "two plane" camp. With work and time limits it is unlikely that I can make major swing changes at this time. Are there still fundamentals that I should try to incorporate into my swing? Particularly the shallow attack angle. I'm off to the course for a little practice and 18 holes.

Any and all feedback always appreciated.

[bortass]

[quote name='Ldog' timestamp='1332514787' post='4562880']
Interesting perspective / information. Watched the videos and it all makes sense. I really appreciate the info that I see on this site!

My question is this - It appears that most of the swing examples and illustrations are "one plane." I seem to be more in the "two plane" camp. With work and time limits it is unlikely that I can make major swing changes at this time. Are there still fundamentals that I should try to incorporate into my swing? Particularly the shallow attack angle. I'm off to the course for a little practice and 18 holes.

Any and all feedback always appreciated.
[/quote]


Two plane swings tend to be more upright and you probably don't want to flatten your lie angles alot with that type of swing. This is based on what I read in Hardy's book 'the Plane Truth of Golf' a few nights ago. I'm no expert, just parroting what I read.

[jons1]

many, not all, but many pros on tour play pretty close to stock specs.... even the tall players.

i think this post is great, and interesting, but keep in mind that golfers today, or many of them anyway, are considerably taller then players back then. Todays players are sometimes easily a 6" or sometimes more then they were then.

to summarize the argument, it's a chicken ~ egg type thing. are golfers swings being dictated by todays equipment, or is todays equipment being dictated by golfers now that there is considerably more fitting and launch data then there was in the past, not to mention building clubs based on the average man of today.

[chris_golf]

I play my 7 Iron with 56 degree Lie... I am 6´1 tall and 35,5 WTF... they are 1/2 inch longer...
Sure I am on one end of the spectrum...Crazy specs, but they fit well to my flat swing:
[attachment=1085450:ChrisAndHoganP7.jpg]

IMO you need upright lie angles if you rotate the sweetspot around the shaft - what most players are doing and
this promotes upright lie angles. Nothing wrong with this technique.

If you rotate the shaft around the sweetspot - than it is a totally different story...
You would need a flat entry into impact, your right forearm stays on plane and your left arm shifts underplane...
I am on my way to understand it better... but you need flatter lie angles and a pretty good pivot
to master this...

Chris

[nepatriotsfan]

[quote name='chris_golf' timestamp='1332600497' post='4569748']
I play my 7 Iron with 56 degree Lie... I am 6´1 tall and 35,5 WTF... they are 1/2 inch longer...
Sure I am on one end of the spectrum...Crazy specs, but they fit well to my flat swing:
[attachment=1085450:ChrisAndHoganP7.jpg]

IMO you need upright lie angles if you rotate the sweetspot around the shaft - what most players are doing and
this promotes upright lie angles. Nothing wrong with this technique.

If you rotate the shaft around the sweetspot - than it is a totally different story...
You would need a flat entry into impact, your right forearm stays on plane and your left arm shifts underplane...
I am on my way to understand it better... but you need flatter lie angles and a pretty good pivot
to master this...

Chris
[/quote]

I couldn't agree more. If you are going to swing flat you better have a good pivot. Very nice impact position.

[chrio]

Gonna flatten my 5-7-9 2° and see hot it works.. I usually get to steep and slughty outside of plane..will the flattened lie help keep me away from this?

[jons1]

the majority of players on tour over 6 foot tall are playing something that's around 1 degree upright, whether talking Tiger, Els, etc.

Although I would agree that using irons that are 5 degrees upright in the hands of someone with average specs and 5'10" tall isn't doing anything to help him learn to swing less steep / over the top, to say you need to have a flat lie angle to be a good ball striker is basically a laughable concept.