Lie Angles-great ballstrikers

[MelloYello]

I'm 5'9" with a 35" WTF measurement which by Ping's online fitting chart makes me a yellow dot or in other words 1.5 degree upright. That fits with my current experiences, actually.

My problem has been (with standard lies) occasionally deepened divots and more frustratingly divots that are deep in the toe. Obviously, a more upright lie would be better and Ping looks correct.

But you all say otherwise.

Would I do well to try flat lies even though upright lies currently fit me much better?

Would I ever be able to make something like that work and what good would it be? Would I be able to possibly make a good swing without compensating for a too-flat lie angle?

For what it's worth, my biggest problem isn't really in swing plane but rather a tendency to be laid off at the top which I cannot seem to remedy. I have a feeling that it's hampering my ability to maintain my lag and instead release improperly and early causing a somewhat toe-down divot.

[Cwebb]

[quote name='MelloYello' timestamp='1332763753' post='4581982']
I'm 5'9" with a 35" WTF measurement which by Ping's online fitting chart makes me a yellow dot or in other words 1.5 degree upright. That fits with my current experiences, actually.

My problem has been (with standard lies) occasionally deepened divots and more frustratingly divots that are deep in the toe. Obviously, a more upright lie would be better and Ping looks correct.

But you all say otherwise.

Would I do well to try flat lies even though upright lies currently fit me much better?

Would I ever be able to make something like that work and what good would it be? Would I be able to possibly make a good swing without compensating for a too-flat lie angle?

For what it's worth, my biggest problem isn't really in swing plane but rather a tendency to be laid off at the top which I cannot seem to remedy. I have a feeling that it's hampering my ability to maintain my lag and instead release improperly and early causing a somewhat toe-down divot.
[/quote]

How does Ping figure at your stature, that a perfect static fit would be 1.5* upright? I can tell you for sure, that nobody on tour would start there.

How are you defining "laid off" at the top? I've found many players have thought they were laid off, when in fact it's not the case. Remember that for every degree short of parallel we are, the club should be "laid off" that same amount, in order to be on plane to the lead (left) arm.

Also, a divot that starts on the toe side does not necessarily indicate that the lie is too flat. Many times it's from a "high rate of closure", where the face is closed in relation to the path, so the toe always starts the divot first...

[craniac24]

Good lord. I'm 6'3" and I play irons that are +1" AND 2.25 degrees upright. I've been having some success shallowing out my swing lately and my divots STILL show that the toe is digging in first. I can't even imagine what it would be like to have a swing that would call for standard lie or flatter. Maybe I need a lesson or five.

[Cwebb]

[quote name='craniac24' timestamp='1332805098' post='4587400']
Good lord. I'm 6'3" and I play irons that are +1" AND 2.25 degrees upright. I've been having some success shallowing out my swing lately and my divots STILL show that the toe is digging in first. I can't even imagine what it would be like to have a swing that would call for standard lie or flatter. Maybe I need a lesson or five.
[/quote]

You should take a close look on a high speed camera and what you will probably find is that the ciub returns to impact higher and steeper than whhere it starts at address...and/or your swing path is inside to out, which will force a "high rate of closure" where the face is closed in relation to the path, which means the toe side of the sole gets into impact/ground first...which can actually "trick" a lie board test. Be really careful with lie boards and I would actually abandon them for the Sharpie method.

The answer is not to go way upright with lie, but to fix your body and how you use it

[Hackerforever]

Regarding lie, how many of us strike the ball off of a perfectly flat surface? How many degrees off level is the ground under the ball? If you think your clubs are too upright remember for each inch you choke down you are flattening the effective lie by 1 degree. 2 inches, 2 degrees. Which means if you have custom clubs you better grip them exactly at the same spot that you did when you were fitted. I've shot good scores (for me in the 70's) with clubs with 2.5 degrees variance in lie with no adjustment in grip. Not as big a problem as some critics say.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='Hackerforever' timestamp='1332881268' post='4593770']
Regarding lie, how many of us strike the ball off of a perfectly flat surface? How many degrees off level is the ground under the ball? If you think your clubs are too upright remember for each inch you choke down you are flattening the effective lie by 1 degree. 2 inches, 2 degrees. Which means if you have custom clubs you better grip them exactly at the same spot that you did when you were fitted. I've shot good scores (for me in the 70's) with clubs with 2.5 degrees variance in lie with no adjustment in grip. Not as big a problem as some critics say.
[/quote]

Circumstances around the ball and shot plan determine how the ball needs to be impacted. For the most part, we still need to hit the ball with the sweet spot of the club head; and that happens as a result of grooved swing mechanics. Choking down influences trajectory, distance and overall shot control. When I do that, I have more break in my knees, and lower my COG. Lie angles of the club do not change to hit off uneven terrain. I change my setup to insure the club head is parallel to turf at impact.

Recently my clubs were acting odd. I knew because distance control and trajectories were not as they should be. For example, my 2i was 16* and 3* flat from my normal 59.5; yet I was posting normal scores. I wasn't hitting the club nearly as well. Distance was shorter and seldom on target, yet still never too far off because of my mechanics. A few degrees doesn't change swing mechanics nor should it impair judgment or the saving grace of having a short game; which is why I still posted decent scores. With mid-high index golfers, off lie angles can have ugly results, not to mention scoring struggles. Grooved swing mechanics and having clubs fit to ideal lie angle makes ball striking and down range results optimum. that's my 2cents.

[HawkeyeDan]

[quote name='Cwebb' timestamp='1332778198' post='4583734']
[quote name='MelloYello' timestamp='1332763753' post='4581982']
I'm 5'9" with a 35" WTF measurement which by Ping's online fitting chart makes me a yellow dot or in other words 1.5 degree upright. That fits with my current experiences, actually.

My problem has been (with standard lies) occasionally deepened divots and more frustratingly divots that are deep in the toe. Obviously, a more upright lie would be better and Ping looks correct.

But you all say otherwise.

Would I do well to try flat lies even though upright lies currently fit me much better?

Would I ever be able to make something like that work and what good would it be? Would I be able to possibly make a good swing without compensating for a too-flat lie angle?

For what it's worth, my biggest problem isn't really in swing plane but rather a tendency to be laid off at the top which I cannot seem to remedy. I have a feeling that it's hampering my ability to maintain my lag and instead release improperly and early causing a somewhat toe-down divot.
[/quote]

How does Ping figure at your stature, that a perfect static fit would be 1.5* upright? I can tell you for sure, that nobody on tour would start there.

How are you defining "laid off" at the top? I've found many players have thought they were laid off, when in fact it's not the case. Remember that for every degree short of parallel we are, the club should be "laid off" that same amount, in order to be on plane to the lead (left) arm.

Also, a divot that starts on the toe side does not necessarily indicate that the lie is too flat. Many times it's from a "high rate of closure", where the face is closed in relation to the path, so the toe always starts the divot first...
[/quote]

When I checked out PING's fitting process, I found black dot to be pretty flat to begin with - therefore I believe 1.5 up is actually still flatter than a lot of other OEM's. When I first did a web fit, they had me at 3 up (6'1" 37" wrist to floor) which I thought was crazy - until I found out that was only 1 up from my Titleist set numbers-wise.

[SnapFade2]

2* flat i hear is the best

[tembolo1284]

I'm just going flatter and flatter now with slice's swing adjustments. I'm at 8 degrees flat now. My wedge is 56 lie.

Bang!

[CallawayLefty]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1336147119' post='4847882']
I'm just going flatter and flatter now with slice's swing adjustments. I'm at 8 degrees flat now. My wedge is 56 lie.

Bang!
[/quote]


This is hilarious. In a completely awesome way. Viva la flat angles!

[OffCourse]

I stumbled across some of this flat lie angle stuff a while back when I first started playing mizuno irons (with 63* PW and 9 irons) and came to many of the same conclusions.

For me that is too flat according to my wrist to floor, and dynamic fitting. But I didn't readily have access to have them bent upright. So I just started playing them that way and contrary to what many will tell you should happen, I started DRAWING the ball for the first time in my life (traditionally a fader of the ball, oftentimes uncontrollably with previous sets that were always ~ 2* more upright).

Eventually I got my own bending machine and one of the first things I did was bend my mizunos upright (65* PW) and wouldn't you know it, I immediately (within a range session) started fading the ball again. Bent 'em back and I was back to drawing the ball.

So for me, it must be that I really DO adjust my swing to the club subconsciously and basically get upright and OTT when I play upright irons.

Playing slightly flat lie angles works like a 'stop' or 'guide' for my swing and prevents my swing from getting too upright.

[drbonesvt]

How you get your woods flat?

[sblack5]

depending on the woods, you can find someone with a bending machine to have it done......sellingers power golf does it (ive had 3 adams 9064ld heads done from them) .....I dont think that they will be able to do multi material heads like the callaway or tour exotics but most of the others are fine.....dont expect anything drastic.....usually maybe 2 to 3 degrees in either direction is what they can get. call brian at the roanoke location.....he is awesome.

also, for what its worth, I play a set of miura 1957's (baby blades) at 57* lie angle 4-pw, GW, SW, LW....I think that is like 6 or 7 degrees flat. I'm 6'4" with a 32" wrist to floor. usually get fitted to 2* upright because of my height......went to a one plane swing (found out that it more naturally fits my body through many lessons and trial and error) and pulled the lie on my sticks down to their current 57* and holy fantastic........currently playing at a +2.

[jons1]

why would being so flat make you a better ball striker? of course, being extremely upright would indicate poor mechanics, but to say someone with an upright lie is a poor ball striker is ludicrous. Nicklaus was 2 up, Tiger is 1 up, Els is 1 up, on and on. I think like most things in life, when you're extreme anything you're probably missing the mark, and in this case, that could mean upright or flat. 2 up to 2 flat is the zone you want to be in imo.

[MWM400]

Looks like someone bumped this thread. Searching through the archives, this and other threads led me to flatten the lie angle of my clubs. I was struggling and the ball marks were always on the inside of my clubhead. I think I was beginning to attempt adjustments to my swing to compensate. I finally decided to just have them bent a couple degrees flat to see if that made a difference.

I took them to a guy that was recommended to me and he went club by club on a lie board and sure enough I needed them flatter. We kept going until I was in the middle of the face. It wound up being 3.5* flatter than standard (although, I play AP2s and they are a bit more upright and slightly longer than most). He told me to play them for a few weeks before I decide for sure if this is the setup I want.

I've been to the range 4 times and played twice since. Without really changing anything in my swing, I'm not striping the ball. It made a huge difference to me.

[ben w]

[quote name='MWM400' timestamp='1344351380' post='5422960']I've been to the range 4 times and played twice since. Without really changing anything in my swing, I'm [b]not[/b] striping the ball. It made a huge difference to me.
[/quote]

is this a typo? because if not, it's not much of an endorsement. LOL

[MWM400]

Ha! Yes, I mean't I'm NOW striping the ball.

[jons1]

sounds like a defective ball if you're leaving stripes on it

[rhh7]

I am 65, learned to play with blades, persimmon and balata. I am 5'8.5", with 32" wtf.

I honestly believe that most modern clubs are too long, too upright, with lofts which are too strong.

I recently bought a set of 1975 Wilson Staff blades, 2-PW, for $25.

I am spending $45 to have the lofts weakened by 1 degree, and the lies flattened: from 55 degrees in the 2-iron, to 62 degrees in the PW.

[billybob19606]

Im 5'10'' and have never hit irons or hybrids as well as I have in the past 2 weeks (since I bought my first set of Mizunos)...the stnd being 2* flatter than others is AWESOME!

[nepatriotsfan]

[quote name='rhh7' timestamp='1344645820' post='5447566']
I am 65, learned to play with blades, persimmon and balata. I am 5'8.5", with 32" wtf.

[b]I honestly believe that most modern clubs are too long, too upright, with lofts which are too strong.[/b]

I recently bought a set of 1975 Wilson Staff blades, 2-PW, for $25.

I am spending $45 to have the lofts weakened by 1 degree, and the lies flattened: from 55 degrees in the 2-iron, to 62 degrees in the PW.
[/quote]

I couldn't agree more. IMO, the modern clubs are making golfers swings worse. Big headed drivers that have a sweet spot area instead of a sweet spot. Perimeter weighted irons that don't give you the proper feedback on mishits. Golf is more than hitting the ball long.

[jons1]

unless you're at least 15 degrees flat, you're really can't even compare yourself to great ball strikers like myself. I'm hoping to get closer to 70 degrees flat and making baseball swings. you losers will never see ball striking as good as this.

this thread is as utterly ridiculous as what i just said in jest. There are so many professional players that are upright over decades and decades and decades of golf at the highest level, I can't believe some of the comments that have been made. if you have a repeating golf swing, get fit for that swing, and that's that. It doesn't matter if you are upright or flat, it matters that you can repeat. imo any other advice is crazy talk.

[dlygrisse]

Okay, so would any disagree that Lee Westwood and Hunter Mahan are two of the better ball strikers on the tour today? Neither one are overly tall, both are very rotary in thier actions and neither would be considered flipper by any standard...are you with me so far?

From Pings website
Westwood-2.25 upright and longer than standard by .75" which effectivly makes them 3 1/2 upright!!!!!
Mahan-Blue dot .75 upright

Flat lie angles work great for some people...but only if they need them....it would be like saying everyone should wear a size 8 shoe because Ben Hogan wore a size 8 shoe.

[Cwebb]

[quote name='dlygrisse' timestamp='1344728501' post='5452154']
Okay, so would any disagree that Lee Westwood and Hunter Mahan are two of the better ball strikers on the tour today? Neither one are overly tall, both are very rotary in thier actions and neither would be considered flipper by any standard...are you with me so far?

From Pings website
Westwood-2.25 upright and longer than standard by .75" which effectivly makes them 3 1/2 upright!!!!!
Mahan-Blue dot .75 upright

Flat lie angles work great for some people...but only if they need them....it would be like saying everyone should wear a size 8 shoe because Ben Hogan wore a size 8 shoe.
[/quote]

I agree. If someone sets up in their ideal address and the sole is resting towards the toe because the lie is too flat, that doesn't make any sense and will certainly not promote a better swing long term.

However, on the other extreme which happens a lot. If someone sets up and the toe is up in the air by 2-3*, because the lie board said that's what they need, then consideration for the long term as to whether this will make sense for their swing work or not, is certainly worth thinking about

[jons1]

[quote name='Cwebb' timestamp='1344734745' post='5452620']
[quote name='dlygrisse' timestamp='1344728501' post='5452154']
Okay, so would any disagree that Lee Westwood and Hunter Mahan are two of the better ball strikers on the tour today? Neither one are overly tall, both are very rotary in thier actions and neither would be considered flipper by any standard...are you with me so far?

From Pings website
Westwood-2.25 upright and longer than standard by .75" which effectivly makes them 3 1/2 upright!!!!!
Mahan-Blue dot .75 upright

Flat lie angles work great for some people...but only if they need them....it would be like saying everyone should wear a size 8 shoe because Ben Hogan wore a size 8 shoe.
[/quote]

I agree. If someone sets up in their ideal address and the sole is resting towards the toe because the lie is too flat, that doesn't make any sense and will certainly not promote a better swing long term.

However, on the other extreme which happens a lot. If someone sets up and the toe is up in the air by 2-3*, because the lie board said that's what they need, then consideration for the long term as to whether this will make sense for their swing work or not, is certainly worth thinking about
[/quote]

So you're saying the lie board... well... lies. Please expand because I thought the other methods to test for lie came to the same conclusions as the lie board.

[zerix]

I think people need to think of how the heel is coming into the ball. One of the most profound things that has helped me recently with ball striking is reading a snippit from Justin Rose in a GD article where he says he tries to get the heel of his irons digging first which promotes a much shallower angle of attack. People should really analyze their divot patterns and make sure they're not toe-deep. The swing thought of trying to get the heel to dig first promotes such a different (and better) feeling coming through the ball than anything I've ever tried before.

[golfsavvy]

[quote name='enduro' timestamp='1319838267' post='3733067']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1319751966' post='3728271']
I agree, I think most people will subconsciously fith their swing into up right clubs. You want the opposite.

Titleist only went 2 up within the last 10 years. 690 MBs were flatter - then the 690.MB came out (or vice versa). The new version was 2* up and a half inch longer. They said they were getting a lot of requests for that, so they made that new standard.

I run into problems with the woods. I play off a 59* 7 iron (which is still pretty flat), but all woods are too upright. Most people say it doesn't matter, but it does. For one, my 3wood off the deck heels out. So the sweetspot is elevated from the turf. So the effective clubface is smaller and I find most strikes to be toward the heel. The same goes for the driver. My pattern is more toward the heel, because the toe is always up in the air. It is a PITA. I picked up an old persimmon. Perfect. It had to be at least 6-8* flatter than my current Cobra.
[/quote]

I've stated the same thing about modern woods especially the driver,. You always get some condescending response that lie angle has no effect whatsoever on a driver and little on a fw. Sometimes the post will even be all in caps just to show how correct they are. Then you'll get the toe droop sermon and the "ball is on a tee" spiel as further proof of their point.


Its absurd to think that the same driver/fw lie will fit all golfers despite substantially different hand positions at address. Perhaps the lie of a driver doesn't make a huge difference at impact, but it will change how you swing . If its only the heel of your too upright fw that interacts with the ground how can you expect any consistency ? Any slighly fat shot will be a disaster, any ball hit squarely will actually be thinned.
[/quote]

Great points... Is it any wonder that around 2000 Ping changed their standard driver lie from 53 degrees to 58? Wonder what they were trying to PREVENT....! Also, lie angle on fairway woods and hybrids is just as important as irons, especially when hitting from a tight lie (a major reason why some women have difficulties with fairway woods). Too bad there are only a couple of companies that will adjust them. Any company that says it doesn't matter is marginalizing your performance with them.

2 things have contributed to the upright phenomenon -- clubfitting and bigger players. Hogan, Watson, Nicklaus, Trevino, Jones, weren't all that big or tall -- the biggest of the bunch was Snead. Not very many George Archers back in the day (how did HE do it?). Now the big guys can get clubs that they can actually hit, so there's more like Ernie Els, but it's good to see there's still Graeme McDowells out there.

Once Henry-Griffitts started dynamic clubfitting in 1983, they started custom fitting people who were NOT tour pros. They found longer was somewhat easier to hit for people who didn't have the core strength, ability, and time to get to Hogan-esque positions. Some bigger players fit into more upright clubs, though many shorter players were able to get clubs built to much flatter lies, even 5 - 6 flat.

Amateur copies of Nicklaus' upright swing and Miller's drive the legs swing produced more upright clubs for many people. For a while it was as if Hogan's swing mattered less. Nobody really wanted to copy Trevino's swing, and Snead's was less popular.

In about '95 or '96 the major companies started to take notice of clubfitting. 2 MAJOR companies said they would not get involved because it was all 'smoke and mirrors' -- it's been long enough since then to name them: Mizuno and Taylormade. Each has thankfully and positively changed their tune.

As companies actually started getting involved, they noticed that many fits were coming in on an average 2 degrees more upright than standard. When Titleist bought Cobra back in '00 or '01, they didn't even have the same standard lie angles for a couple of years, and we practically had to beat them over the head to get it right. They matched them up around '02, about 2 degrees more upright than 5 or 10 years prior.

Mizuno maintained their 'flat' designation, but didn't have the same lie angles from set to set -- I don't know if this has changed as it's difficult to keep up with. Their logic was flawless, except for the practicality of it.

Don't get me wrong -- for the most part these companies have always made good quality equipment. It's just that the application of the equipment through clubfitting was sometimes marginal.

Equipment companies have come and gone over the years, sometimes not because they did a great job, but because they didn't make money doing it. Slazenger. Hogan. Zevo. etc.

Unfortunately 'generalizations' often muck up performance. I once fit a 6 foot, 300 lb guy with 1 1/2" over and 3 flat (I actually had to bend a fitting club to prove where he was...almost broke it). He had short arms and a very rotational swing. He wanted Callaways, but went to get fitted by another company's rep. The rep said NOBODY is more than 1/2 an inch over and fit him at +1/2" +2 lie. He failed to tell the guy that at the time that company would not manufacture clubs more than 1/2" long. Duh. So I gave him both clubs and said he could buy whatever he wanted.

He chose Callaway, so I called Callaway and ordered them. They called me back and asked if I knew what I was ordering. I said, "Yes, do you know who I'm fitting?"

So, Henry-Griffitts is still in business, and still has the same standard lie they had back in '83. Many companies have adjusted upwards. But with all the variances in 'standard', I've always maintained that the discussion should be adjusted to the ACTUAL lie angle number, say 59 or 60 or 61 or 62 (or whatever), combined with the length. Longer makes the club more upright, so sometimes making a longer, flatter club makes sense. I think discussion of 'effective' lie angle is a marginal issue.

Unfortunately, or fortunately, you'll never get the companies to agree on standards, because they all want to maintain their own specifications for their own (sales) reasons. Good and bad. The biggest problem I see in clubfitting iron lies is that the standard variance from club to club doesn't always mean that the long irons are correct, or the short irons are correct. Every club in your set should be tested regardless of the brand, model, or player skill. That responsibility is on the clubfitter...

So here's a big point: With the desire to hit the ball straight, how many swings have been shaped by the lie angles players developed with? Hogan's were flat -- What did Trevino start with? Palmer? Nicklaus? Did Snead simply develop because whatever he had actually fit him well (except for the driver -- he hit a 2 wood for years...)?

[Cwebb]

[quote name='zerix' timestamp='1350318508' post='5796145']
I think people need to think of how the heel is coming into the ball. One of the most profound things that has helped me recently with ball striking is reading a snippit from Justin Rose in a GD article where he says he tries to get the heel of his irons digging first which promotes a much shallower angle of attack. People should really analyze their divot patterns and make sure they're not toe-deep. The swing thought of trying to get the heel to dig first promotes such a different (and better) feeling coming through the ball than anything I've ever tried before.
[/quote]

It's a great thought. Just about any thought or feel that helps promote returning the shaft back through impact closer to the same angle that it started at, is usually beneficial. Some refer to this as "releasing the heel" or "brush the heel"

[sdthorpe]

Reading this thread gave me the little push I needed to get my lies altered. I've felt for a while now that the toe looked way too high at address, and some of my most pured iron shots end up left of the green.

So, my experience today: Went to the local Edwin Watts to get them to do it, spent 20 mins arguing with the guy on what I wanted. He kept trying to convince me to get what I wanted, I needed to go 2* up! He kept pointing to his Ping poster on the wall to make his point, I kept banging my head against his counter... Finally I said, "Sir, I'm asking you if I can pay you to bend them 2* flat, will you do that for me please?"

Unbelievable...

Anyhow, I'm reading now that not each iron needs the same degree of bend, if that's the case, what's the gauge? Shorter clubs/more bend or visa versa?

[Cwebb]

[quote name='sdthorpe' timestamp='1358998189' post='6286583']
Reading this thread gave me the little push I needed to get my lies altered. I've felt for a while now that the toe looked way too high at address, and some of my most pured iron shots end up left of the green.

So, my experience today: Went to the local Edwin Watts to get them to do it, spent 20 mins arguing with the guy on what I wanted. He kept trying to convince me to get what I wanted, I needed to go 2* up! He kept pointing to his Ping poster on the wall to make his point, I kept banging my head against his counter... Finally I said, "Sir, I'm asking you if I can pay you to bend them 2* flat, will you do that for me please?"

Unbelievable...

Anyhow, I'm reading now that not each iron needs the same degree of bend, if that's the case, what's the gauge? Shorter clubs/more bend or visa versa?
[/quote]

LOL! Yeah, frustrating isn't it. Sometimes it gets to the point where you might as well walk in the door and right after "hello", just say "I know exactly what I want, I've done my homework,..here it is,...lets get 'er done". Ends up saving a half hour of your life. LOL

If I'm understanding your question, you're asking about the incremental change from club to club. As you've probably noticed, it's all over the place from company to company and even different models within the same company. Some sets go on a half degree lie increment, others a full degree, and others both within the same set.

Personally, I prefer starting with a full degree increment change for every half inch in length difference, which is the standard length difference in almost all sets from club to club. However, many of the pitching wedges are only 1/4" shorter than the 9 irons, so really know what your wedge length increments are, and then base your lie angle decision on that.

Some of the long irons in todays sets are manufactured so upright, that it's difficult to bend them flat enough for a full a 1* increment change all the way through a set, especially for a player who wants his specs working off a flatter than standard 'starting point'.

I would find out what the actual lie angle is on your long irons, then do the math and see where you might want to end up with them, and then decide whether that particular iron model will realistically be able to be bent that much.