Lie Angles-great ballstrikers

[GetmeouttaJersey]

You know this all makes way too much sense. I'm playing TM 2011 MB's and of course, they're upright (OTR essentially). I've "always" fit into a standard (OTR) lie angle when it comes to the lie board, but in terms of feel/look, my club is always "upright". When I set up to the ball, I would love to have the feeling of my hands being "lower" without seeing the toe "up". In my previous set of irons, I had the almost all of the irons bent 1* flat.

In the past few months, I've worked on getting "flatter" in terms of my plane and I think that the upright lie angles have caused me to strike the ball consistently on the toe. Does that make sense?

[cardoustie]

I should know this but need clarification - this is a great post

I am 6'2" and play s-56's 1.5* upright (yellow dot), index is 3.3 at the moment

I used to play Mizuno MP37's 1* flat

Both sets are plus 1/4" with s300's

I've noticed this wet Fall that ... I see misses where the shot is off the toe and I also see toe deep divots sometimes

I do set my hands low at address, toe is up (I have long arms for a fat ba_tard.

Are my clubs to upright? Do I need to go flatter? The issue when they fit you at Ping is you are not actually taking divots when they do lie angle. I have my Vokey wedges all flat to prevent the lefts ...

[bogeypro]

[quote name='CARDY' timestamp='1320342525' post='3755131']
I should know this but need clarification - this is a great post

I am 6'2" and play s-56's 1.5* upright (yellow dot), index is 3.3 at the moment

I used to play Mizuno MP37's 1* flat

Both sets are plus 1/4" with s300's

I've noticed this wet Fall that ... I see misses where the shot is off the toe and I also see toe deep divots sometimes

I do set my hands low at address, toe is up (I have long arms for a fat ba_tard.

Are my clubs to upright? Do I need to go flatter? The issue when they fit you at Ping is you are not actually taking divots when they do lie angle. I have my Vokey wedges all flat to prevent the lefts ...
[/quote]

you could be coming over the top and causing the toe to dig. Did you hit off the lie board when you got fitted?

Also, height is not the only factor in determining the lie angle. I am just under 5'8" and I play slightly upright (blue dot) and - 1/4". My hands are slightly higher at impact than at address.

[bogeypro]

[quote name='GetmeouttaJersey' timestamp='1320339958' post='3754907']
You know this all makes way too much sense. I'm playing TM 2011 MB's and of course, they're upright (OTR essentially). I've "always" fit into a standard (OTR) lie angle when it comes to the lie board, but in terms of feel/look, my club is always "upright". When I set up to the ball, I would love to have the feeling of my hands being "lower" without seeing the toe "up". In my previous set of irons, I had the almost all of the irons bent 1* flat.

In the past few months, I've worked on getting "flatter" in terms of my plane and I think that the upright lie angles have caused me to strike the ball consistently on the toe. Does that make sense?
[/quote]

typcally, too upright will cause you to hit it more left. I am not sure about what it does to impact location. I would have to defer that to a certified clubfitter.

What i don't understand about you and cardy is why you want to set your hands lower at address. When you come through impact, do you keep them that low? Also, if you want to flatten your swing why are you bending over more at address - why are you not swinging more around you on a flatter plane?

[chrisgilly09]

Sounds right wrt your diagnosis on cardy bogeypro, when I was off 1* flat I was getting toe deep divots but flattened them more because I knew where I wanted to go with my swing. Sounds crazy but I really have made big strides in ballstriking and scoring. Just my. 02

[mikpga]

This is the sad reality of todays' equipment...

All clubs are designed to minimize the ball going RIGHT (for right handers)...

Manufacturers are in the business of selling their equipment, they want it to perform for the vast majority...

The vast majority of golfers have a swing motion which creates a ballflight which goes RIGHT (for right handers)...

[bogeypro]

Mike, very true. Give a slicer a club that is too flat and they will hate it. They would rather buy a club the is more upright and allow the club to fix their swing. It is the same with distance - that is why driver shafts are all too common over 45 inches in length. The trade off is accuracy. Now, if you can swing a 48" driver with accuracy, watch out on the green! LOL

While I fully understand what the OP is saying about the feedback to that slicer with a flatter club. Truth is, not everybody wants to take the time to correct it. They want to buy a club that does it.

great topic and discusson. It has made me go read more about lie angles.

[mikpga]

Here's a fun concept...

Henry Griffitts coined a phrase, "Equipment Effects Motion"...

Which came first?

1. Swings which produced shots going to the right? or
2. Clubs which encouraged swings to produce shots to go right?

[FairwaysToHeaven]

Pretty good reading....i've been getting too upright in my stance and knowing that i play 2 deg upright clubs i've been drawing all my shots w some hooks. I've been wanting to try to bend more at my waist and swing a little flatter, especially from the tee w the driver, but is also been issue with the irons. I may need to flatten the lie angle to help with this.

Too bad winter is right around the corner and won't have time to practice this.

[MK7Golf21]

[quote name='bogeypro' timestamp='1320345117' post='3755305']
Mike, very true. [b] Give a slicer a club that is too flat and they will hate it. They would rather buy a club the is more upright and allow the club to fix their swing.[/b] It is the same with distance - that is why driver shafts are all too common over 45 inches in length. The trade off is accuracy. Now, if you can swing a 48" driver with accuracy, watch out on the green! LOL

While I fully understand what the OP is saying about the feedback to that slicer with a flatter club. Truth is, not everybody wants to take the time to correct it. [b]They want to buy a club that does it.[/b]

great topic and discusson. It has made me go read more about lie angles.
[/quote]

Problem is the upright lie angle probably wont fix their swing, it can encourage the player visually to come into the ball steeply, over the top and rolling the wrists.

If they want to buy a club to fix their swing, a flatter iron might not be a bad idea. Would encourage the player to come into the ball closer to the original plane which is flatter and inside.

[bogeypro]

[quote name='mikpga' timestamp='1320346729' post='3755439']
Here's a fun concept...

Henry Griffitts coined a phrase, "Equipment Effects Motion"...

Which came first?

1. Swings which produced shots going to the right? or
2. Clubs which encouraged swings to produce shots to go right?
[/quote]

oh no, not a chicken vs egg discussion....it's going to be a long winter. LOL


1. do you fit the club to the swing
2. do you fit the swing to the club

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='Redjeep83' timestamp='1320348344' post='3755551']
If they want to buy a club to fix their swing, a flatter iron might not be a bad idea. Would encourage the player to come into the ball closer to the original plane which is flatter and inside.
[/quote]


Nice...haven been on wrx in a while and I immediately found a thread that encouraged me to spend some money lol.

Ive been gaming Ping Red Dot for the past year (.75-1 degree flat). Just bought a 5 iron in Gold Dot which is almost 4* flat. I have a problem with getting steeper on the downswing at the moment (and have for the entire 3.5 years of playing) and recently cleaned up my backswing a lot thanks to a good instructor so now my steepening DS move on video is horrendous and really stands out. I should have it in a week and will post my findings and maybe a vid or 2. Im excited to give this a try.

Would the lie angle and perspective at address really change how I return the CH to the ball? My great swings on film now look on plane but are slightly fat

[GetmeouttaJersey]

[quote name='bogeypro' timestamp='1320344207' post='3755259']
[quote name='GetmeouttaJersey' timestamp='1320339958' post='3754907']
You know this all makes way too much sense. I'm playing TM 2011 MB's and of course, they're upright (OTR essentially). I've "always" fit into a standard (OTR) lie angle when it comes to the lie board, but in terms of feel/look, my club is always "upright". When I set up to the ball, I would love to have the feeling of my hands being "lower" without seeing the toe "up". In my previous set of irons, I had the almost all of the irons bent 1* flat.

In the past few months, I've worked on getting "flatter" in terms of my plane and I think that the upright lie angles have caused me to strike the ball consistently on the toe. Does that make sense?
[/quote]

typcally, too upright will cause you to hit it more left. I am not sure about what it does to impact location. I would have to defer that to a certified clubfitter.

What i don't understand about you and cardy is why you want to set your hands lower at address. When you come through impact, do you keep them that low? Also, if you want to flatten your swing why are you bending over more at address - why are you not swinging more around you on a flatter plane?
[/quote]



I would say I miss it more left now than I ever have. This coming from a guy whose miss has always (up until the past year) been a block or cut Right. In terms of my hands being "low", I don't necessarily want them to actually BE "low", I am really just trying to set my club shaft on a flatter plane at address as opposed to setting the club more "upright" if that makes sense?

For me, at least lately, I've been trying to get my hands on more of an "inside" path as I swing. My tendency is to have my hands get too "high" at impact as opposed to keeping my arms connected to my torso and returning my hands to their starting position.

For me, making contact is certainly a product of a few different issues I'm having right now.

1. Standing too far from the ball (easily fixed by just standing closer)
2. A "flying" Left shoulder. My L shoulder tends to open up to the target as I approach impact, causing me to hit the ball left and mainly off the toe as I would technically be farther from the ball.
3. Losing posture/butt-line as I approach impact. I've always had some issues maintaining my posture into impact, as I like to stand up out of my shots for some reason...


I'm sure that going flatter isn't going to put me out on tour, but something as simple as having a club look and feel "less upright" would certainly encourage me, subconsciously to maintain my inside hand path. JMO and obviously I realize that lie angle can only do so much...

[FATC1TY]

I've gone from 3* up, to 2* flat in less than a year.

Ball striking is better than it ever has, flushing the middle of the clubs just about everytime.. Infact, flat lie angles has caused me to start browning my irons.

I started noticing that I could rarely hit a cut/fade easily. Even forcing it, almost trying to hit a push cut shot and letting it hang out.

Still would always work back to the middle, or left of middle.

[ben w]

[quote name='FATC1TY' timestamp='1320372927' post='3757219']
I've gone from 3* up, to 2* flat in less than a year.

Ball striking is better than it ever has, flushing the middle of the clubs just about everytime.. Infact, flat lie angles has caused me to start browning my irons.

I started noticing that I could rarely hit a cut/fade easily. Even forcing it, almost trying to hit a push cut shot and letting it hang out.

Still would always work back to the middle, or left of middle.
[/quote]

what is your height and build?

the last time I had my clubs adjusted I was swinging poorly and I'm swinging better now. I was on the lie board then and had to bend 2* up from stock (VR split cavity). Seriously considering flattening them out to see what'll happen...

[FATC1TY]

[quote name='ben w' timestamp='1320421406' post='3758925']
[quote name='FATC1TY' timestamp='1320372927' post='3757219']
I've gone from 3* up, to 2* flat in less than a year.

Ball striking is better than it ever has, flushing the middle of the clubs just about everytime.. Infact, flat lie angles has caused me to start browning my irons.

I started noticing that I could rarely hit a cut/fade easily. Even forcing it, almost trying to hit a push cut shot and letting it hang out.

Still would always work back to the middle, or left of middle.
[/quote]

what is your height and build?

the last time I had my clubs adjusted I was swinging poorly and I'm swinging better now. I was on the lie board then and had to bend 2* up from stock (VR split cavity). Seriously considering flattening them out to see what'll happen...
[/quote]

About 6 foot.. Medium build, can't remember what my wrist to floor is off the top of my head from the last fitting.

I was swinging like crap back then as well when I was stuck around 2* up.. I've since flattened out my plane, and I'm striking it much better than before. Come to find out, I need flat, which really explains why I've really gone 180* this past season.

I went from a beautiful hold off cut shot as a natural swing, to what has ended up being a very predictable right to left ball flight. I can get a little push cut when I try to, or the lie helps me, but it's really hard to get a cut for me now without pulling it sometimes.

[tampay]

[quote name='GetmeouttaJersey' timestamp='1320339958' post='3754907']
You know this all makes way too much sense. I'm playing TM 2011 MB's and of course, they're upright (OTR essentially). I've "always" fit into a standard (OTR) lie angle when it comes to the lie board, but in terms of feel/look, my club is always "upright". When I set up to the ball, I would love to have the feeling of my hands being "lower" without seeing the toe "up". In my previous set of irons, I had the almost all of the irons bent 1* flat.

In the past few months, I've worked on getting "flatter" in terms of my plane and I think that the upright lie angles have caused me to strike the ball consistently on the toe. Does that make sense?
[/quote]

This is a great thread & this post is exactly how I feel.

I'm over 6 feet tall and I've fit into standard maybe 1 degree flat on a lie board... My clubs look/feel to upright tho.

Especially when I make a spinning half wedge swing. I give it a little hogan "pull down and around" in the downswing and I can "feel" the heel digging.

I had my 8i bent 2* flat and a couple of wedges 3* flat to test and it's been great. Couldn't really notice a difference at 1* flat.

[stonecutter908]

I will be taking tape and a sharpie with me to my next range season. Great advice on the lie fitting at ball strike.

[mikpga]

Just to add a note...

I've always been around one flat to standard...

I spent a few days with Geoff just talking about teaching, and also working on my swing...

One of the first things he told me, "need to flatten those irons out"...

They were alread one flat, and I went home and bent them another 3 flat...

I can't even imagine swinging a club that is "standard" anymore, it will EFFECT SWING MOTION...

[pingfool]

always been fit +1/2" & 2up.

swing plane is flat w/ clubface shut @ the top.

swing flaw slight OTT - with fatal miss left.


what might i expect if change clubs & play std. length/lie?

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='tmfool ' timestamp='1320764359' post='3774771']
always been fit +1/2" & 2up.

swing plane is flat w/ clubface shut @ the top.

swing flaw slight OTT - with fatal miss left.


what might i expect if change clubs & play std. length/lie?

[/quote]

Not taking the club away so shut will help as well, but then youd be in my position and have to be steeper on the DS. Im starting to think that your mind will learn to strike the ball without worrying about video. If you were to swing irons that are 1-2* flat then you couldnt swing over the top and wipe it. You'd hit it toe first and fat everytime to the right. Me personally; after I re-educate my hands this will be a big difference maker IMO.

Try it out(buy a demo club off ebay for cheap with your favorite shaft installed)

[GetmeouttaJersey]

[quote name='tampay' timestamp='1320649063' post='3769391']
[quote name='GetmeouttaJersey' timestamp='1320339958' post='3754907']
You know this all makes way too much sense. I'm playing TM 2011 MB's and of course, they're upright (OTR essentially). I've "always" fit into a standard (OTR) lie angle when it comes to the lie board, but in terms of feel/look, my club is always "upright". When I set up to the ball, I would love to have the feeling of my hands being "lower" without seeing the toe "up". In my previous set of irons, I had the almost all of the irons bent 1* flat.

In the past few months, I've worked on getting "flatter" in terms of my plane and I think that the upright lie angles have caused me to strike the ball consistently on the toe. Does that make sense?
[/quote]

This is a great thread & this post is exactly how I feel.

I'm over 6 feet tall and I've fit into standard maybe 1 degree flat on a lie board... My clubs look/feel to upright tho.

Especially when I make a spinning half wedge swing. I give it a little hogan "pull down and around" in the downswing and I can "feel" the heel digging.

I had my 8i bent 2* flat and a couple of wedges 3* flat to test and it's been great. Couldn't really notice a difference at 1* flat.
[/quote]

Exactly man. Glad my post was somewhat understandable, haha. Looks like I'm gonna be taking my irons a couple degrees flat. Gotta get on the bending bar asap.

[tom93084]

I agree with the general idea of this thread. How do you guys feel about today's woods? They all seem too upright to me. I'm at 44.5 and 42.5 with my driver and 3 wood now but I'm thinking of going down to 44 and 42 just so the toe isn't so high in the air. I know the toe comes down at impact but I don't think its that much. I'm using very stiff shafts which I read minimizes that effect. Btw I'm 6'2" with long arms and have my irons 1/4 short and 62 degree 5 iron but I'm thinking of going down a degree or two. I swing left after impact and try to return the club to the shaft plane.

[mikpga]

[quote name='tom93084' timestamp='1321075269' post='3790919']
I agree with the general idea of this thread. How do you guys feel about today's woods? They all seem too upright to me. I'm at 44.5 and 42.5 with my driver and 3 wood now but I'm thinking of going down to 44 and 42 just so the toe isn't so high in the air. I know the toe comes down at impact but I don't think its that much. I'm using very stiff shafts which I read minimizes that effect. Btw I'm 6'2" with long arms and have my irons 1/4 short and 62 degree 5 iron but I'm thinking of going down a degree or two. I swing left after impact and try to return the club to the shaft plane.
[/quote]


As loft is reduced, the less the lie angle has an influence on direction of the ball...

I would suggest it is much more important with your mid to shorter irons, and not quite as important with the driver...

The problem with the drivers isn't so much the lie angle, but the effective lie angle because they keep getting longer and longer...

[Jozi]

I'm 5"11 so average height. If I look at standard lie angle indications I should be 1* flat (based on wrist to floor)
but I was fitted 2* upright. I hate the upright angle at address and feel that I have accustomed my swing to the angle.
On a lie board I therefore show that I need the upright angle. Also when I got fitted I really was a hack (+25hcp)

I'm working on coming more from the inside, using my lower body better, but my standard shot is a fade.
I'd love to bend my clubs back to standard and like the article says force me to flatten out my swing.

What can I expect when I do this? I have an old set that has standard lie angles. Everything doesn't seem to
be that much different when I hit those clubs so I'm curious whether this is a good idea yes or no.

[Cwebb]

[quote name='tom93084' timestamp='1321075269' post='3790919']
I agree with the general idea of this thread. How do you guys feel about today's woods? They all seem too upright to me. I'm at 44.5 and 42.5 with my driver and 3 wood now but I'm thinking of going down to 44 and 42 just so the toe isn't so high in the air. I know the toe comes down at impact but I don't think its that much. I'm using very stiff shafts which I read minimizes that effect. Btw I'm 6'2" with long arms and have my irons 1/4 short and 62 degree 5 iron but I'm thinking of going down a degree or two. I swing left after impact and try to return the club to the shaft plane.
[/quote]

Try the Sharpie test. Stencil a line on a ball, then line it up as precisely vertical as possible on a tee facing you, then hit your driver from as level ground as possible. If the top of the line on the face is tilted towards the toe, this indicates that you made contact with the lie angle upright.

I prefer this method for all clubs. Rarely use a lie board at all anymore

[Cwebb]

[quote name='Jozi' timestamp='1321206176' post='3795483']
I'm 5"11 so average height. If I look at standard lie angle indications I should be 1* flat (based on wrist to floor)
but I was fitted 2* upright. I hate the upright angle at address and feel that I have accustomed my swing to the angle.
On a lie board I therefore show that I need the upright angle. Also when I got fitted I really was a hack (+25hcp)

I'm working on coming more from the inside, using my lower body better, but my standard shot is a fade.
I'd love to bend my clubs back to standard and like the article says force me to flatten out my swing.

What can I expect when I do this? I have an old set that has standard lie angles. Everything doesn't seem to
be that much different when I hit those clubs so I'm curious whether this is a good idea yes or no.
[/quote]

Either bend just one of your clubs to test first, or have a practice club built with all the specs exactly the same...except for a flatter lie angle. If you like it and it makes sense for what you're moving towards with your swing, go for it. The odds of it holding you back in building a more efficient swing, are very slim.

[gruz]

Really interesting post. I was fit into Mizunos at std length 1*up at 6'4 (long arms), but at that point I had a really steep angle of attack. I've since worked on the slicefixer swing, and I'm experiencing the best ballstriking of my life... But the ones I feel I catch pure are heading 5-10 yards left, even in my PW/G. I find myself trying to compensate in my swing and/or altering my alignment to play to it.. This post has me thinking I need to revisit the lie board.

[Lefty_3Jack]

I have hit Callaway X Forged, All of the TM iron offerings of the past two years sans R9, and Mizuno MX 200 & MP-53's off of lie boards and had a perfect line right in the center of the sole. Is it really possible I am adjusting my swing regarding the lie angle for each club????

[powerfade_maller]

Dynamic club fitting should take place with closed eyes. If a person has a shred of athleticism, if they see the club at address and the ball, their brain will naturally alter their swing to hit the ball as flushly as possible. I have found that closing one's eyes does wonders for swinging on a plane that is effected less by the look of the club at address. With my eyes open, I can be "fit" within a degree of whatever the club is currently bent to. But when I close my eyes, I get a more accurate picture of my plane.

I think this is part of why terrible golfers can take great practice swings. The practice swing is not dependent on what they are seeing on the ground, but the feel of going towards the target. If a club is bent to the specs created by a blindfolded swing, there is a better chance that there won't be the awkward uncomfortable adjustments mid swing that lead to awful shots.

All that being said, I am yet to see someone swing more upright than standard with their eyes closed.