Lie Angles-great ballstrikers

[MK7Golf21]

Recently I have been working on getting my downswing on plane. Ive been using a casio high speed camera which is wonderful. Before working on my downswing watching my swing I would come into the ball very steep compared to the original plane. As weird as it sounds, this gave me a "standard" lie on most irons. Im about 5"9/ 5"10 so I consider myself to be normal height and I have a good address position (dont have the club really flat). Since Ive fixed my steep downswing with the help of my instructor it is parallel to the shaft plane line at address when watching on camera, maybe slightly above the line but parallel to it. Anyway, these are great changes to my swing and my ballstriking is much better as well as the depth of my divots is perfect.

 

So I got my lie angle checked after this change to my swing and I am like 2 degrees flat atleast, maybe 3 degrees on like titleist etc with more upright angles. My question is, why do companies make such upright lie angles as standard. I consider myself to be normal height.

 

I came across this article as well, just wanted your thoughts on it.

 

FLAT LIE ANGLES-

The Reason and Logic Of The Greats

 

I know from personal experience in a question asked directly to Lee Trevino that he used clubs that were at least 3 degrees flat in lie angle from the old standard.

 

Doug Sanders also informed me in the interview I recently did with him

(on page 2) that he had his clubs flattened down so the toe sat down and the heel would never strike the ground first

 

If we look at Ben Hogan's club that is in USGA Golf House Museum it is close to 6 or 7 degrees flat in lie angle when compared to clubs of the same length and loft of today.

 

 

If flat lie angles were the choice of the game's best ball strikers throughout history then WHY do manufacturers insist on putting upright lie angled clubs in the hands of golfer's today?

 

The upright clubs make the player come steeply into the ball on descent.

 

The upright clubs tell the body stall and insist that the hands flip through impact to try and square that upright lie angled club with the ground.

 

The upright club straightens the right arm away from the body and increases clubface roll throughout the shot making timing a huge problem.

 

Upright lie angles deteriorate the swing by not stressing the importance of swinging the golf club behind and around the body and rotating through impact with the correct body effort and sequence.

 

Too often we now see golfers throwing the club through impact- pushing the club head off to the right of the target or throwing the clubhead left of the target with their hand roll --flipping the club face over by hand action trying to correct the mistake.

 

Today's clubs should all come with a :warning label:

"Swing Deterioration And Poor Mechanics Possible By Using This Club"

 

Add the fact that the shafts are too long and the swingweights and overall club weights are too light and it is little wonder we don't see ball striking mastery on any level any longer.

 

Remember: Feedback of the club and the swing is necessary for improvement to take place.

That's why golfers are not improving.

They don't know the difference between a good strike or a bad strike of the ball because the permieter weighting and large sweet spots don't allow such reference.

The equipment golfers are using is NOT designed to help them adjust their swing to the correct efficient motion.

[tembolo1284]

supposedly the 'average' dude has grown so much than you need massively upright clubs. I think it's crap.

Only thing maybe I can think is most people slice so more upright helps it go more left. Blah blah that's great....what do us hookers do then? I'd hit myself in the ankle if I tried to use a club off the shelf!

[lagster]

Recently I have been working on getting my downswing on plane. Ive been using a casio high speed camera which is wonderful. Before working on my downswing watching my swing I would come into the ball very steep compared to the original plane. As weird as it sounds, this gave me a "standard" lie on most irons. Im about 5"9/ 5"10 so I consider myself to be normal height and I have a good address position (dont have the club really flat). Since Ive fixed my steep downswing with the help of my instructor it is parallel to the shaft plane line at address when watching on camera, maybe slightly above the line but parallel to it. Anyway, these are great changes to my swing and my ballstriking is much better as well as the depth of my divots is perfect.

 

So I got my lie angle checked after this change to my swing and I am like 2 degrees flat atleast, maybe 3 degrees on like titleist etc with more upright angles. My question is, why do companies make such upright lie angles as standard. I consider myself to be normal height.

 

I came across this article as well, just wanted your thoughts on it.

 

FLAT LIE ANGLES-

The Reason and Logic Of The Greats

 

I know from personal experience in a question asked directly to Lee Trevino that he used clubs that were at least 3 degrees flat in lie angle from the old standard.

 

Doug Sanders also informed me in the interview I recently did with him

(on page 2) that he had his clubs flattened down so the toe sat down and the heel would never strike the ground first

 

If we look at Ben Hogan's club that is in USGA Golf House Museum it is close to 6 or 7 degrees flat in lie angle when compared to clubs of the same length and loft of today.

 

 

If flat lie angles were the choice of the game's best ball strikers throughout history then WHY do manufacturers insist on putting upright lie angled clubs in the hands of golfer's today?

 

The upright clubs make the player come steeply into the ball on descent.

 

The upright clubs tell the body stall and insist that the hands flip through impact to try and square that upright lie angled club with the ground.

 

The upright club straightens the right arm away from the body and increases clubface roll throughout the shot making timing a huge problem.

 

Upright lie angles deteriorate the swing by not stressing the importance of swinging the golf club behind and around the body and rotating through impact with the correct body effort and sequence.

 

Too often we now see golfers throwing the club through impact- pushing the club head off to the right of the target or throwing the clubhead left of the target with their hand roll --flipping the club face over by hand action trying to correct the mistake.

 

Today's clubs should all come with a :warning label:

"Swing Deterioration And Poor Mechanics Possible By Using This Club"

 

Add the fact that the shafts are too long and the swingweights and overall club weights are too light and it is little wonder we don't see ball striking mastery on any level any longer.

 

Remember: Feedback of the club and the swing is necessary for improvement to take place.

That's why golfers are not improving.

They don't know the difference between a good strike or a bad strike of the ball because the permieter weighting and large sweet spots don't allow such reference.

The equipment golfers are using is NOT designed to help them adjust their swing to the correct efficient motion.

 

Great Post!

[RightHandRough]

[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/user/71802-tembolo1284/"][color="#353535"]tembolo1284[/color][/url]'s Comment on slicing would be my thought as well. Easy way for a company to add some game improvement. I'm tall 6'2", and a fairly upright swinger. I play stock mizuno's, and am thinking of getting them a degree or two flat.

[MK7Golf21]

[quote name='RightHandRough ' timestamp='1319658729' post='3722035']
[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/user/71802-tembolo1284/"][color="#353535"]tembolo1284[/color][/url]'s Comment on slicing would be my thought as well. Easy way for a company to add some game improvement. I'm tall 6'2", and a fairly upright swinger. I play stock mizuno's, and am thinking of getting them a degree or two flat.
[/quote]

yea mizunos are like the flattest standard lie angle out there. They are 1.5 degrees flatter than most companies like titleist. I think Im 1 degree flat on mizunos clubs. Titleist like 2.5 flatter

[tembolo1284]

Yap, Redjeep you are right about Mizuno.

[tpariff]

[quote name='Redjeep83' timestamp='1319660123' post='3722211']
[quote name='RightHandRough ' timestamp='1319658729' post='3722035']
[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/user/71802-tembolo1284/"][color="#353535"]tembolo1284[/color][/url]'s Comment on slicing would be my thought as well. Easy way for a company to add some game improvement. I'm tall 6'2", and a fairly upright swinger. I play stock mizuno's, and am thinking of getting them a degree or two flat.
[/quote]

yea mizunos are like the flattest standard lie angle out there. They are 1.5 degrees flatter than most companies like titleist. I think Im 1 degree flat on mizunos clubs. Titleist like 2.5 flatter
[/quote]

My specs are identical to yours and I'm 5'9". My new MP-59 irons are 1* flat of Mizzy standard and I could go even flatter and be fine.

Like someone else posted, I think it has to do with the "average" person being taller today and trying to reduce a slice. If you look closely at certain iron specs you'll see the lie angle of longer irons are more upright whereas the shorter irons are flatter. Longer irons are harder to hit so I'm guessing the upright lie angle makes it harder to slice. Just a guess though.

Great post!

[Dave D]

Recently I have been working on getting my downswing on plane. Ive been using a casio high speed camera which is wonderful. Before working on my downswing watching my swing I would come into the ball very steep compared to the original plane. As weird as it sounds, this gave me a "standard" lie on most irons. Im about 5"9/ 5"10 so I consider myself to be normal height and I have a good address position (dont have the club really flat). Since Ive fixed my steep downswing with the help of my instructor it is parallel to the shaft plane line at address when watching on camera, maybe slightly above the line but parallel to it. Anyway, these are great changes to my swing and my ballstriking is much better as well as the depth of my divots is perfect.

 

So I got my lie angle checked after this change to my swing and I am like 2 degrees flat atleast, maybe 3 degrees on like titleist etc with more upright angles. My question is, why do companies make such upright lie angles as standard. I consider myself to be normal height.

 

I came across this article as well, just wanted your thoughts on it.

 

FLAT LIE ANGLES-

The Reason and Logic Of The Greats

 

I know from personal experience in a question asked directly to Lee Trevino that he used clubs that were at least 3 degrees flat in lie angle from the old standard.

 

Doug Sanders also informed me in the interview I recently did with him

(on page 2) that he had his clubs flattened down so the toe sat down and the heel would never strike the ground first

 

If we look at Ben Hogan's club that is in USGA Golf House Museum it is close to 6 or 7 degrees flat in lie angle when compared to clubs of the same length and loft of today.

 

 

If flat lie angles were the choice of the game's best ball strikers throughout history then WHY do manufacturers insist on putting upright lie angled clubs in the hands of golfer's today?

 

The upright clubs make the player come steeply into the ball on descent.

 

The upright clubs tell the body stall and insist that the hands flip through impact to try and square that upright lie angled club with the ground.

 

The upright club straightens the right arm away from the body and increases clubface roll throughout the shot making timing a huge problem.

 

Upright lie angles deteriorate the swing by not stressing the importance of swinging the golf club behind and around the body and rotating through impact with the correct body effort and sequence.

 

Too often we now see golfers throwing the club through impact- pushing the club head off to the right of the target or throwing the clubhead left of the target with their hand roll --flipping the club face over by hand action trying to correct the mistake.

 

Today's clubs should all come with a :warning label:

"Swing Deterioration And Poor Mechanics Possible By Using This Club"

 

Add the fact that the shafts are too long and the swingweights and overall club weights are too light and it is little wonder we don't see ball striking mastery on any level any longer.

 

Remember: Feedback of the club and the swing is necessary for improvement to take place.

That's why golfers are not improving.

They don't know the difference between a good strike or a bad strike of the ball because the permieter weighting and large sweet spots don't allow such reference.

The equipment golfers are using is NOT designed to help them adjust their swing to the correct efficient motion.

sounds like Brad Hughes?

[againstthegrain]

Most golfers are OTT so the companies just made upright standard. Less adjustments and more people fit right out of the box.

[MK7Golf21]

i was just checking out miura iron specs. they are actually flatter than mizuno by .5 degrees. muira is 2 degrees flatter than titleist.

[dukeman]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVag2fqFnDk"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVag2fqFnDk[/url]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMNYYeVEfV4"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMNYYeVEfV4[/url]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yacYG6Ba-fk"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yacYG6Ba-fk[/url]


3 good videos (parts 1,2, and 3) discussing the benefits of flat lie angles.

[MK7Golf21]

[quote name='dukeman' timestamp='1319669332' post='3722921']
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVag2fqFnDk"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=eVag2fqFnDk[/url]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMNYYeVEfV4"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=XMNYYeVEfV4[/url]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yacYG6Ba-fk"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=yacYG6Ba-fk[/url]


3 good videos (parts 1,2, and 3) discussing the benefits of flat lie angles.
[/quote]

watched the first video. I thought it was a geat video, thats actually some of the stuff and feelings Ive been working on to have the correct angle into the shot. thanks for them

[Hawkeye77]

Damn, that's really interesting stuff and I'll be lucky to get out 2 or 3 more times this year.

Wish it was Spring.

[The General]

I'm 6'4" and finally got properly fit: I'm 1.5" over standard and 1* flat, they are Cobra Pro MBs. I WAS 1/2" over and 4* up forever. Now, after a month with the 1* flat, they feel/hit great.

[Bobalu]

RightHandRough- Same specs for me with Mizuno (1 degree flat vs standard) and Titleist (2.5 degrees flat vs standard), and I am 6'1/2", and play 1/4 longer (than Taylormade's standard). I usually flatten my Titleist Vokey wedges 2.5 to 3 degrees from standard until they look and feel right around the green and with controlled pitches. Specs on one of newest was 2 degrees flatter than standard off the rack in the plastic, when I checked the lofts on a Mitchell machine- but the loft was spot on all my recent Vokeys. I don't trust these manufacturer's quality control/variation in loft/lie.

[quote name='Redjeep83' timestamp='1319660123' post='3722211']
[quote name='RightHandRough ' timestamp='1319658729' post='3722035']
[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/user/71802-tembolo1284/"][color="#353535"]tembolo1284[/color][/url]'s Comment on slicing would be my thought as well. Easy way for a company to add some game improvement. I'm tall 6'2", and a fairly upright swinger. I play stock mizuno's, and am thinking of getting them a degree or two flat.
[/quote]

yea mizunos are like the flattest standard lie angle out there. They are 1.5 degrees flatter than most companies like titleist. I think Im 1 degree flat on Mizuno's clubs. Titleist like 2.5 flatter
[/quote]

[MadGolfer76]

[quote name='Redjeep83' timestamp='1319660123' post='3722211']
[quote name='RightHandRough ' timestamp='1319658729' post='3722035']
[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/user/71802-tembolo1284/"][color="#353535"]tembolo1284[/color][/url]'s Comment on slicing would be my thought as well. Easy way for a company to add some game improvement. I'm tall 6'2", and a fairly upright swinger. I play stock mizuno's, and am thinking of getting them a degree or two flat.
[/quote]
[b]
yea mizunos are like the flattest standard lie angle out there.[/b] They are 1.5 degrees flatter than most companies like titleist. I think Im 1 degree flat on mizunos clubs. Titleist like 2.5 flatter
[/quote]

I have often wondered why I pissed greatness. Now I have my answer; it is just the clubs. Thanks!
























lol, guys. Don't freak out.

[squarre]

I have been thinking about having my AP2s bent 1* flat from standard over the last few months. This thread and the video might make me finally go through with it. Our of curiosity, how much can the lie angles be adjusted on the AP2s?

[MK7Golf21]

[quote name='squarre' timestamp='1319688103' post='3724589']
I have been thinking about having my AP2s bent 1* flat from standard over the last few months. This thread and the video might make me finally go through with it. Our of curiosity, how much can the lie angles be adjusted on the AP2s?
[/quote]

as much as you need to bend them since they are forged.

[exgolfpro]

I have been working with the instructor that posted the article you refer to. It is his opinion (and mine) that many of the old great ballstrikers flattened the shaft down into impact, often flatter than the shaft plane at setup. Flatter lies are harder to pull as well.

I found a 6iron on ebay that was 4* flat, so i bought it and do much of my practicing with it.

Yes, the reason the clubs are so upright is the fact manufacturers need the ball to go 'less right".

[lime56]

i remember back n the day i told the guy to crank my hogan apex plus two degrees flat

flushed them since that day

[bogeypro]

wouldn't you have the club fit to your swing instead of fitting your swing to the club? I am confused here...

[MK7Golf21]

[quote name='bogeypro' timestamp='1319738461' post='3727051']
wouldn't you have the club fit to your swing instead of fitting your swing to the club? I am confused here...
[/quote]

yea you do but people are just saying clubmakers make stock lie angles for very upright shaft angles. It probably would encourage someone to swing more on the shaft plane through impact if the club angle at address looked closer to that angle instead of so upright.

[againstthegrain]

[quote name='bogeypro' timestamp='1319738461' post='3727051']
wouldn't you have the club fit to your swing instead of fitting your swing to the club? I am confused here...
[/quote]

If you're trying to flatten your swing plane a club w a flat lie is a training aid. It gives you feedback w every swing.

[dukeman]

The conventional wisdom is that you fit your clubs to your swing, i.e. if you swing steeply get upright clubs.

My personal experience is that my swing would chase my clubs....the more upright I made my clubs the steeper I would swing.

[dukeman]

Another thing to remember...there is no such thing as "standard" lie angles.

Off the shelf lie angles today are very upright compared to historical norms. 1 degree flat on a modern club is still way more upright than anything Hogan or Trevino played.

If you make up a set around a 58degree lie angle 7 iron, you will have a flat set of irons.

[ej002]

I agree, I think most people will subconsciously fith their swing into up right clubs. You want the opposite.

Titleist only went 2 up within the last 10 years. 690 MBs were flatter - then the 690.MB came out (or vice versa). The new version was 2* up and a half inch longer. They said they were getting a lot of requests for that, so they made that new standard.

I run into problems with the woods. I play off a 59* 7 iron (which is still pretty flat), but all woods are too upright. Most people say it doesn't matter, but it does. For one, my 3wood off the deck heels out. So the sweetspot is elevated from the turf. So the effective clubface is smaller and I find most strikes to be toward the heel. The same goes for the driver. My pattern is more toward the heel, because the toe is always up in the air. It is a PITA. I picked up an old persimmon. Perfect. It had to be at least 6-8* flatter than my current Cobra.

[joesgonegolfing]

Solid Post, and good videos to watch. I'd say this is pretty much how I swing and play my Pings 3.75 degrees flat.

To the guy bending his AP2's....Titleist says no more than 2 degrees. It has something to do with the face and body not being the same material and production. It's one of the reasons I went to Ping to get the fit I needed.

Joe

[enduro]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1319751966' post='3728271']
I agree, I think most people will subconsciously fith their swing into up right clubs. You want the opposite.

Titleist only went 2 up within the last 10 years. 690 MBs were flatter - then the 690.MB came out (or vice versa). The new version was 2* up and a half inch longer. They said they were getting a lot of requests for that, so they made that new standard.

I run into problems with the woods. I play off a 59* 7 iron (which is still pretty flat), but all woods are too upright. Most people say it doesn't matter, but it does. For one, my 3wood off the deck heels out. So the sweetspot is elevated from the turf. So the effective clubface is smaller and I find most strikes to be toward the heel. The same goes for the driver. My pattern is more toward the heel, because the toe is always up in the air. It is a PITA. I picked up an old persimmon. Perfect. It had to be at least 6-8* flatter than my current Cobra.
[/quote]

I've stated the same thing about modern woods especially the driver,. You always get some condescending response that lie angle has no effect whatsoever on a driver and little on a fw. Sometimes the post will even be all in caps just to show how correct they are. Then you'll get the toe droop sermon and the "ball is on a tee" spiel as further proof of their point.


Its absurd to think that the same driver/fw lie will fit all golfers despite substantially different hand positions at address. Perhaps the lie of a driver doesn't make a huge difference at impact, but it will change how you swing . If its only the heel of your too upright fw that interacts with the ground how can you expect any consistency ? Any slighly fat shot will be a disaster, any ball hit squarely will actually be thinned.

[MK7Golf21]

When we went to taylormade performance lab in texas with the golfwrx guys, our fitter for taylormade has his irons 5 degrees flat,lol.It might of been more than 5 actually.It was like 5 or 7 degrees flat.

[dana dahlquist]

Im 6'2" an play standard
Back in the day I was 2 up on 1994 specs.
You right on th emoney about Hogan