Lie Angles-great ballstrikers

[vdo222]

Good discussions. When I was swinging on a flatter plane I had my irons bent 3* flatter as well. Since then I'm gradually working to be more "up right" with my swing because it's more comfortable for me. This requires my irons bent back to standard.
The general theme in matching your lie angles to your swing is very sound though.

[golfnuthb]

Nobody needs to convince me of the benefits of flatter lies. 5 ft 10 here with long arms. I have my Mizunos bent 3* flat of standard starting at PW and tapering back up thru the set to standard by 3 iron. The dynamics of impact are what they are for each of us. For me flat lie angles flat out work.

[Dixie Flatline]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1319751966' post='3728271']
I agree, I think most people will subconsciously fith their swing into up right clubs. You want the opposite.

Titleist only went 2 up within the last 10 years. 690 MBs were flatter - then the 690.MB came out (or vice versa). The new version was 2* up and a half inch longer. They said they were getting a lot of requests for that, so they made that new standard.

I run into problems with the woods. I play off a 59* 7 iron (which is still pretty flat), but all woods are too upright. Most people say it doesn't matter, but it does. For one, my 3wood off the deck heels out. So the sweetspot is elevated from the turf. So the effective clubface is smaller and I find most strikes to be toward the heel. The same goes for the driver. My pattern is more toward the heel, because the toe is always up in the air. It is a PITA. I picked up an old persimmon. Perfect. It had to be at least 6-8* flatter than my current Cobra.
[/quote]

The forged stuff might have been flatter in the last five years, but when I was fit for DCI's in 1995, the Titleist standard was a 62º five iron.

[PreppySlapCut]

6'3", usually play +1/2" on Titleist/TM modern standard and 2*-3* flat.

[buu]

i was recently fitted for jpx 800 pro 1 degree flat...are mizuno clubs more upright than taylor made clubs...i'm coming from taylor made and haven't had my mizunos bent yet and they seem upright? any help is greatly appreciated.

[PreppySlapCut]

[quote name='buu' timestamp='1319861286' post='3734349']
i was recently fitted for jpx 800 pro 1 degree flat...are mizuno clubs more upright than taylor made clubs...i'm coming from taylor made and haven't had my mizunos bent yet and they seem upright? any help is greatly appreciated.
[/quote]
No. Mizuno's stock lie angle is 1* flat of TaylorMade's current standard. The R9 TPs, though, have the same lie angle as the JPX 800 Pro.

[JD3]

Not just about lie angle. Longer clubs all things being equal will make a club play more upright. I think mizuno irons are at least 1/4th " shorter than Titleist, making them effectively flatter than the stated lie angle differential.
I currently start with Mizunos and just keep bending each one until they look right to me. Depending on individual iron theyre probably any where from 2"-3" flatter than standard mizuno (Do the same with vokey wedges. )
But if I went titleist given the upright lies and longer shafts I'd get custom order because I'd be concerned with the amount I'd need to bend their stock. . Best case the hosel looks too much like a gooseneck worst case they break.

[buu]

maybe i'm confusing this whole thing but just looking at the lie angle of a pw and 9 iron from the r11 they are 64 and 63.5 respectively. Looking at the 800 pros the pw and 9 iron are 63 and 62.5 respectively. Wouldn't that make the mizunos more upright? Wouldn't a larger angle mean for flat whereas a smaller angle means more upright? like i said i might be completely wrong and just going off what i learned in high school geometry 15 years ago. thanks

[buu]

don't worry about the last post, i guess i was just mixing up terminology. i always thought a larger angle was more flat but it is actually more upright i guess

[fats]

Redjeep83

Great posts. Enjoyable to read.

[Deano802]

[quote name='JD3' timestamp='1319864886' post='3734479']
Not just about lie angle. Longer clubs all things being equal will make a club play more upright. I think mizuno irons are at least 1/4th " shorter than Titleist, making them effectively flatter than the stated lie angle differential.
I currently start with Mizunos and just keep bending each one until they look right to me. Depending on individual iron theyre probably any where from 2"-3" flatter than standard mizuno (Do the same with vokey wedges. )
But if I went titleist given the upright lies and longer shafts I'd get custom order because I'd be concerned with the amount I'd need to bend their stock. . Best case the hosel looks too much like a gooseneck worst case they break.
[/quote]

Off the shelf Mizuno and Titleist are exactly the same length, mizuno measure without the grip on and titleist with the grip, that is why they show different lengths on the specs.

I play mizuno because of the flatter lie and am working on exactly what those videos explain, all the pros at my club are golfing machine qualified and are big advocates of this method. Matteo Manassero is a prime example of this and he plays his Titleist irons one degree flat. Look in the video how he drops it into place and the club head is so passive as he turns his body through the shot.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6bREev1swQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Another reason that you have to have a dynamic fitting for your lies is, depending on the shaft and how stiff it is, and how you load it everyone gets different amounts of shaft droop which can flatten the club at impact anywhere from 0 up to 2/3 degrees

I heard Luke Donald in a witb interview on wrx somewhere that he used to play his irons upright but since he has IMPROVED his swing his is at standard mizuno now, he does play 1/2" long though which is down to his posture.

[puttingmatt]

This makes a great arguement for dynamic fitting !!!!
How many here have had their lie angles checked with a
lie board ??

[ej002]

I am not certain about a dynamic fitting. If someone handed me an upright or standard club, I may adjust my swing to fit the club. My advice would be to take an old set and bend them flat 3* flatter than where you have them now and tinker with them until they feel right. You want your clubs to work for you, not the other way around.

[Deano802]

Dynamic fitting is the only way to do it properly, the best way is to do each club seperatly by striking a ball which has line from a sharpie on and adjust based on the angle the line on the face, or an extremely thin lie board while making sure you put your normal swing on. those thick heavy lie boards are a waste of time !

[golfnuthb]

[quote name='JD3' timestamp='1319864886' post='3734479']
Not just about lie angle. Longer clubs all things being equal will make a club play more upright. I think mizuno irons are at least 1/4th " shorter than Titleist, making them effectively flatter than the stated lie angle differential.
[b]I currently start with Mizunos and just keep bending each one until they look right to me. Depending on individual iron theyre probably any where from 2"-3" flatter than standard mizuno [/b](Do the same with vokey wedges. )
But if I went titleist given the upright lies and longer shafts I'd get custom order because I'd be concerned with the amount I'd need to bend their stock. . Best case the hosel looks too much like a gooseneck worst case they break.
[/quote]
Spot on. I also just keep bending my mizunos till they look right at address and I get the ball flight and direction I want. I also have my Cleveland wedges bent at least 2-3* flat of standard.
I dont just bend flat to avoid pulls and going left. I like to play a little push draw or a little straight fade and clubs that are too upright dont allow that without major compensations and manipulations.
I think allot of people would be pleasantly surprised it they tried messing around with some flatter lie angles, especially if you feel your making good swings with a good path and always going left.

[SpeedyPro]

[quote name='dukeman' timestamp='1319669332' post='3722921']
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVag2fqFnDk"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=eVag2fqFnDk[/url]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMNYYeVEfV4"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=XMNYYeVEfV4[/url]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yacYG6Ba-fk"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=yacYG6Ba-fk[/url]


3 good videos (parts 1,2, and 3) discussing the benefits of flat lie angles.
[/quote]

This swing (shallow approach to the ball and rotating the body through impact) was actually I naturally developed when I started playing golf in 2004, self-taught.
But the problem for me was to keeping my hands lower at the top of my back swing, which looked ugly.

So here goes my question. If we look at Hogan's swing, he lifts the clubs up with his left wrist cupped, and at the moment he starts his down swing, he flattens out his left wrist and club. This is the hard part for me (and also for many golfers, I think). It needs good timing.
Why can't I just finish my back swing with flattened left wrist, and very low hands position?

Bradley explains it in his first video that his wrist watch faces to the front at the top of the swing, and it faces to the sky when he starts down swing.
Isn't it better to finish your back swing with the wrist watch facing the sky? Then there needs no transition.

[MK7Golf21]

[quote name='SpeedyPro' timestamp='1319919018' post='3736031']
[quote name='dukeman' timestamp='1319669332' post='3722921']
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVag2fqFnDk"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=eVag2fqFnDk[/url]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMNYYeVEfV4"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=XMNYYeVEfV4[/url]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yacYG6Ba-fk"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=yacYG6Ba-fk[/url]


3 good videos (parts 1,2, and 3) discussing the benefits of flat lie angles.
[/quote]

This swing (shallow approach to the ball and rotating the body through impact) was actually I naturally developed when I started playing golf in 2004, self-taught.
But the problem for me was to keeping my hands lower at the top of my back swing, which looked ugly.

So here goes my question. If we look at Hogan's swing, he lifts the clubs up with his left wrist cupped, and at the moment he starts his down swing, he flattens out his left wrist and club. This is the hard part for me (and also for many golfers, I think). It needs good timing.
[b]Why can't I just finish my back swing with flattened left wrist, and very low hands position? [/b]

Bradley explains it in his first video that his wrist watch faces to the front at the top of the swing, and it faces to the sky when he starts down swing.
Isn't it better to finish your back swing with the wrist watch facing the sky? Then there needs no transition.
[/quote]

you can, its probably better you did that. I dont think you want too low of a hands position though. Some people get way too flat at the top. I like parallel with the shoulders or a hair above shoulders.

[Deano802]

[quote name='SpeedyPro' timestamp='1319919018' post='3736031']
[quote name='dukeman' timestamp='1319669332' post='3722921']
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVag2fqFnDk"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=eVag2fqFnDk[/url]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMNYYeVEfV4"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=XMNYYeVEfV4[/url]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yacYG6Ba-fk"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=yacYG6Ba-fk[/url]


3 good videos (parts 1,2, and 3) discussing the benefits of flat lie angles.
[/quote]

This swing (shallow approach to the ball and rotating the body through impact) was actually I naturally developed when I started playing golf in 2004, self-taught.
But the problem for me was to keeping my hands lower at the top of my back swing, which looked ugly.

So here goes my question. If we look at Hogan's swing, he lifts the clubs up with his left wrist cupped, and at the moment he starts his down swing, he flattens out his left wrist and club. This is the hard part for me (and also for many golfers, I think). It needs good timing.
Why can't I just finish my back swing with flattened left wrist, and very low hands position?

Bradley explains it in his first video that his wrist watch faces to the front at the top of the swing, and it faces to the sky when he starts down swing.
Isn't it better to finish your back swing with the wrist watch facing the sky? Then there needs no transition.
[/quote]

The transition is good, it gives a flow to the swing, people get too caught up in positions, but the swing is a flowing motion that never stops on one position, hughes says that the backswing is not that important the move down is, and I agree.
Matt kucher keeps it the same all the way through, but I feel you need extra skill and huge strength to do this, when you drop and turn in a fluid motion I believe this gives momentum to your downswing and is easier to achieve.

[JD3]

What do you all think of grip tapers? I blame this as much as lie for the roll release. So many top players build up the lower part of the grip to remove taper, there has to be something going on here.

[ev0six]

I think the "average height standard" that manufactures decide is pretty bad too. I'm 5'7" but for all my titleist blades (680/695/710) i have always asked for 3* to 3.5* flat but titleist doesn't recommend it and suggests 2* flat at most. Usually i end up taking it somewhere to get bent the extra 1-1.5 deg.

[mystic]

I've always used a standard lie. since using flightscope and noticing my vsp much flatter than my lie angle, I've bent my irons differently around 3 to 4 degrees flat. the ball starts online with less curve

[DBreslin417]

I've never been fitted for irons, but I have a general question

At address with an iron, should the toe be slightly raised or is the entire club supposed to lie flat? I'm guessing this varies for people, but I'm just wondering if there is a general rule. When I address the ball, the toe is slightly raised, and if I were to address the ball with the bottom flat (i.e. parallel to the ground) it makes my stance very upright.

[RJRJRJ]

[quote name='buu' timestamp='1319864901' post='3734467']
maybe i'm confusing this whole thing but just looking at the lie angle of a pw and 9 iron from the r11 they are 64 and 63.5 respectively. Looking at the 800 pros the pw and 9 iron are 63 and 62.5 respectively. Wouldn't that make the mizunos more upright? Wouldn't a larger angle mean for flat whereas a smaller angle means more upright? like i said i might be completely wrong and just going off what i learned in high school geometry 15 years ago. thanks
[/quote]

Think of it this way. 90* would make an L shape. The closer you are to 90*, the more upright.

I think people get confused because they think that the lie angle is the measurement from the sole of the club and the shaft. Its actually then angle of the shaft down the back side of the club, and the ground behind it.

[Lefthook]

I am 5"10, playing Mizuno's, 4.5* flat 3-5 iron, 2.5 flat PW and progressive in the middle. I was dynamically fitted recently. I could probably gone even flatter, but I decided to settle for just a couple of spoons of medicine and not swallow the whole bottle.

My contact marks were consistently towards the heel of the club before the fitting. Now I can see that they are better centered.

[bogeypro]

[quote name='ev0six' timestamp='1320228611' post='3749683']
I think the "average height standard" that manufactures decide is pretty bad too. I'm 5'7" but for all my titleist blades (680/695/710) i have always asked for 3* to 3.5* flat but titleist doesn't recommend it and suggests 2* flat at most. Usually i end up taking it somewhere to get bent the extra 1-1.5 deg.
[/quote]

Perhaps your clubs are too long for you. That is very flat.

[chrisgilly09]

Flat, heavy, and stiff is the way to go lads. My feeling is that you should bend your clubs to force changes in your swing. Went from 1* flat to 4* and never looked back

[bogeypro]

[quote name='chrisgilly09' timestamp='1320299632' post='3753509']
...My feeling is that you should bend your clubs to force changes in your swing... [/quote]

I couldn't disagree with you more. You should fit your clubs to your swing. If you are making changes to your swing, then visit your clubfitter often for a dynamic lie check.

[chrisgilly09]

[quote name='bogeypro' timestamp='1320334464' post='3754599']
I couldn't disagree with you more. You should fit your clubs to your swing. If you are making changes to your swing, then visit your clubfitter often for a dynamic lie check.
[/quote]

How else do you make drastic changes? For me I had to stop standing up and flipping the club at impact, and considering that the only people I trust bending my irons is the Tour Dept. at Ping (350 miles away), it was a great way to do it all at once and work my body into positions I needed. Shock therapy does work if you have an ultimate goal

[ej002]

[quote name='bogeypro' timestamp='1320334464' post='3754599']
[quote name='chrisgilly09' timestamp='1320299632' post='3753509']
...My feeling is that you should bend your clubs to force changes in your swing... [/quote]

I couldn't disagree with you more. You should fit your clubs to your swing. If you are making changes to your swing, then visit your clubfitter often for a dynamic lie check.
[/quote]


I think he is right in the context of going flat. It will force your swing back into a better position. I disagree with forcing your swing into a standard or upright set. What CG09 is saying is that you need to force a re-adjustment. I know guys who went to 6 and 8 flat to just to break their habits. They end up coming back to somewhere in the 2-4* flat range. I have yet to hear anyone say going too flat has been a problem. You can still play good golf with too flat of clubs.

[chrisgilly09]

Well said mate, thanks