60k + memberships

[CPSOX]

[quote]

Full article here: http://articles.boston.com/2012-05-03/sports/31540132_1_private-club-equity-club-young-club

Of course, one can still go to the Boston Golf Club website and it says that it's invitation only. It seems a little odd that the website would say that, yet I've seen multiple articles about the course that says that they are looking for new members. That leads to another question: how to inquire about membership in golf clubs that publicly say that they are invitation-only or something to that effect. As others have alluded to in this thread, it would seem that the barrier of entry for a lot of clubs in the past ($$$) is not as much of a factor now.
[/quote]

It's $30k for the existing members to rejoin....higher for new members. I'd be willing to bet my $50k guess is pretty good.

Clubs can't advertise and keep their tax exempt status.....thus, 'by invitation only".

However, nearly every club in the country will take your phone call if you'd like to join. Never let the invitation only thing stop you from calling the membership director. Even if the club truly is that way, I guarantee you the MD will be very kind about it. If you're a complete stranger to the club and want to join, they'll find sponsors for you.

[seoulbrother]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1335892028' post='4824694']
[quote name='teejaywhy' timestamp='1335889186' post='4824342']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1335887979' post='4824170']
The high end private clubs (equity or benevolent dictator owned) in CA, AZ, TX, etc., don't advertise, have no debit, and are not struggling for members. Fifty thousand initiation isn't high end either; more upper middle class; but that's not to say they don't have really wealthy members. Club stature depends on where the club is located, demographics and the culture. High end clubs are between 80k-400k initiation with dues from 700-1700 per month, plus F&B quarterlies, trail fees, lockers, etc. Its easy to spend 1500-2500k per mo, plus special events, ancillary costs, and annual capital expenditures. Many members at high end clubs typically have multiple membership too.

To the poster above that says high end clubs have to pay off debit... wrong. Age of club isn't germane either. High end club members write lump sum checks, so clubs have no debit to speak of. The clubs you're referring to are moderate cost clubs build around homes, where wealth varies among members, and club leadership has questionable fiscal judgment.

[/quote]

I assume the word you are looking for is "debt."

Tell that to the members of Quintero, Superstition Mountain, Blackstone, The Rim Club, etc.

I guarantee there are a lot of clubs built during the real estate boom that are being crushed by debt. But I guess, despite the six figure initiation, these are just middle class clubs.
[/quote]

Yep - that's the word... Dyslexia is troublesome and wouldn't wish it upon anyone. You're lucky all you have to do is correct the spelling of others.

You seem to think "high end" means any club that asks for "X" initiation fee means high end. Those clubs are not high end as they didn't attract enough wealthy members to maintain their club. Any club that sells equity memberships, then moves to non-equity has not only troublesome leadership, but questionable demographics. To see what I am talking about look at Rims Membership structure; 30k non-equity and 850 dues is not high end. Look at Seven Canyon's... it was a costly build and idea, that attracted some folks; but colapsed at being a private high end golf vacation attraction. Why because it wasn't good enough, nor have the location that attracts a lot of wealthy people. That's not to say some people wouldn't think it's high end, because to them, those numbers might be high To me they are not. On the other hand, Sherwood Country Club in Thousand Oaks, north of LA, was founded during the tech boom; it's a high end club as well as The Bridges in Rancho Santa Fe. Any club can ask for "X", doesn't mean its high end. Just like any individual can say he's a gentleman, yet his actions speak louder then his words.
[/quote]

Do you have any information on RTJ in Gainesville, VA?

[rc1111]

One does not solicit Augusta for a membership... that is like getting a mark against membership.

[jskd82]

We have one here in Hawaii called Nanea that is $450k and that doesn't include other monthly fees. How I wish I had that kind of money to blow :P

[Osteorach]

My club cost me NZ$875 for the year - $2300 for a full playing man. Five minutes away and designed by alistair Mckenzie and in good condition so I'm quite happy, not particularly long but the greens always make it interesting. The most ill pay for green fees is $100 for a top 100 course (kauri cliffs). I guess living in New Zealand has its benefits... it's crazy to think people pay that much for golf but I guess if you've got the money, why not...

[dporto]

I'd be interested to know what you guys feel is a reasonable amount to pay for a golf membership as a percentage of your net income? Given whatever amount that is, how often would you have to play to make it a worthwhile "investment" ?

[puttingmatt]

$ 60,000.00 buys alot of golf anywhere, including airfare !!!

Not for me , personally or financially !!!

[mctrees02]

Absolutely. I can fly DFW-MRY (Monterey) for $250 to $300 r/t. Then say $1500 for 2 nights and a round on Pebble & either Spyglass or Spanish Bay. So with 60k/year, I can afford to make that trip every other weekend and still have about $10k for walking around money.

[CowtownTexas]

[quote name='mctrees02' timestamp='1336580564' post='4880396']
Here's a list of Dallas/Ft Worth courses with initiations and dues. This was published by Avid Golfer in March 2012. Judging by this list, the starter of this thread is either a member at Colonial or Shady Oaks CC.

List here ---> http://www.myavidgolfer.com/resources/2012%20Fees%20&%20Dues.jpg
[/quote]


Actually, Rivercrest is $60,000 as well, but isn't on that list.

But, I'm fairly certain the OP is a member at CCC.

Also, that list isn't completely accurate. Several clubs around town are letting folks join for far less than what is stated on that list. Ridglea and Mira Vista to start with.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='dporto' timestamp='1336650619' post='4887066']
I'd be interested to know what you guys feel is a reasonable amount to pay for a golf membership as a percentage of your net income? Given whatever amount that is, how often would you have to play to make it a worthwhile "investment" ?
[/quote]

Initiation costs do not translate to a percentage of net income; however, monthly dues and club spending will. Answer depends on what your NET monthly income, adding to savings, cost of living and what's left over, or disposable income.

The more you play at a club, the lower your monthly cost per round is. Initiation fee's don't factor into monthly costs, as it's a basic cost to join. Remember, joining a private club is NOT an investment, even if someone says its on the asset side of your balance sheet.

Say my dues were $1200 month, NOT including F/B monthly spending; my wife and I play a total of five times per week, "x" 4 weeks (not including tournaments) = 20 times per month. Divide $1200 / 20 and it's about $60 per rd to play a high end private course. Round cost comes down to how often you play. Currently I am not a member of a pvt club, playing mostly public. I spend between $60-$175 per rd on average. I pay more per rd to play lesser quality public courses then my last high end pvt course.

[CPSOX]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1336673244' post='4889714']
[quote name='dporto' timestamp='1336650619' post='4887066']
I'd be interested to know what you guys feel is a reasonable amount to pay for a golf membership as a percentage of your net income? Given whatever amount that is, how often would you have to play to make it a worthwhile "investment" ?
[/quote]

Initiation costs do not translate to a percentage of net income; however, monthly dues and club spending will. Answer depends on what your NET monthly income, adding to savings, cost of living and what's left over, or disposable income.

The more you play at a club, the lower your monthly cost per round is. Initiation fee's don't factor into monthly costs, as it's a basic cost to join. Remember, joining a private club is NOT an investment, even if someone says its on the asset side of your balance sheet.

Say my dues were $1200 month, NOT including F/B monthly spending; my wife and I play a total of five times per week, "x" 4 weeks (not including tournaments) = 20 times per month. Divide $1200 / 20 and it's about $60 per rd to play a high end private course. Round cost comes down to how often you play. Currently I am not a member of a pvt club, playing mostly public. I spend between $60-$175 per rd on average. I pay more per rd to play lesser quality public courses then my last high end pvt course.
[/quote]

If you play 20 rounds a month, I'd be shocked if your monthly bill isn't at least double what your standard dues are.

I'm also still fascinated with your equating "high end" and how much it costs. Initiation and monthly dues have more to do with the club's debt load, real estate taxes and how full the membership is. I'd be blown away if any more than 10% of the nation's top 100 had monthly dues over $1200.

"High end" is as worthless of a descriptor as "signature hole" is.

[Huffer]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1336673244' post='4889714']
The more you play at a club, the lower your monthly cost per round is. Initiation fee's don't factor into monthly costs, as it's a basic cost to join. Remember, joining a private club is NOT an investment, even if someone says its on the asset side of your balance sheet.

Say my dues were $1200 month, NOT including F/B monthly spending; my wife and I play a total of five times per week, "x" 4 weeks (not including tournaments) = 20 times per month. Divide $1200 / 20 and it's about $60 per rd to play a high end private course. Round cost comes down to how often you play. Currently I am not a member of a pvt club, playing mostly public. I spend between $60-$175 per rd on average. I pay more per rd to play lesser quality public courses then my last high end pvt course.
[/quote]

If your club doesn't charge for cart rental (which I believe most clubs do, mine charges me $23 for 18 holes) then you may be onto something. Otherwise, the more you play at your club, the higher your monthly bill will be.

I tell people that ask me about club membership is that if you try to base your decision on somehow justifying that your cost per round will be lower at a club, walk away because it won't be. Club membership is a lifestyle that allows me to get in a 4 hour weekend round on even the busiest weekends of the year, to go as a single and easily get a game, to get out and play 4 or 5 holes on my way home from work, to get out and play hit and giggle with my wife and then have dinner with good friends on a Friday, to hang out at the pool on a hot Saturday after a round, etc etc etc. For that lifestyle, I'm willing to pay a premium over what I could play some very nice public golf courses in my area.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='Huffer' timestamp='1336675984' post='4890056']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1336673244' post='4889714']
The more you play at a club, the lower your monthly cost per round is. Initiation fee's don't factor into monthly costs, as it's a basic cost to join. Remember, joining a private club is NOT an investment, even if someone says its on the asset side of your balance sheet.

Say my dues were $1200 month, NOT including F/B monthly spending; my wife and I play a total of five times per week, "x" 4 weeks (not including tournaments) = 20 times per month. Divide $1200 / 20 and it's about $60 per rd to play a high end private course. Round cost comes down to how often you play. Currently I am not a member of a pvt club, playing mostly public. I spend between $60-$175 per rd on average. I pay more per rd to play lesser quality public courses then my last high end pvt course.
[/quote]

If your club doesn't charge for cart rental (which I believe most clubs do, mine charges me $23 for 18 holes) then you may be onto something. Otherwise, the more you play at your club, the higher your monthly bill will be.

I tell people that ask me about club membership is that if you try to base your decision on somehow justifying that your cost per round will be lower at a club, walk away because it won't be. Club membership is a lifestyle that allows me to get in a 4 hour weekend round on even the busiest weekends of the year, to go as a single and easily get a game, to get out and play 4 or 5 holes on my way home from work, to get out and play hit and giggle with my wife and then have dinner with good friends on a Friday, to hang out at the pool on a hot Saturday after a round, etc etc etc. For that lifestyle, I'm willing to pay a premium over what I could play some very nice public golf courses in my area.
[/quote]

You've overlooked at many higher end gated golf communities (the two where I have homes) most club members live inside the gates and own golf carts. We pay a trail fee ($650-$800) once a year in Jan. Its not factored into monthly dues, just like F/B quarterly min. Even many members that lived outside the gates paid storage fee to other members or residents, even the club for storing them. Otherwise members that lived outside ( less then 2%) the gates, paid cart fee's.

Many clubs have to offer all or a large percentage of cart and range revenue to Pro staff, because salaries and possibly benefits are not very attractive. We had no debit to speak of at my last two clubs.. and dues were over $1000. Debit gets retired fast when a club is made up of members with substantial resources. When I'd show up to play in my cart, it was common to have someone I was teed with (who didn't own a cart) ask if they could ride with me, and I'd say sure. That was common for most members.

We're in agreement -joining a private club becomes a lifestyle.

[ruascott]

[quote name='Huffer' timestamp='1336675984' post='4890056']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1336673244' post='4889714']
The more you play at a club, the lower your monthly cost per round is. Initiation fee's don't factor into monthly costs, as it's a basic cost to join. Remember, joining a private club is NOT an investment, even if someone says its on the asset side of your balance sheet.

Say my dues were $1200 month, NOT including F/B monthly spending; my wife and I play a total of five times per week, "x" 4 weeks (not including tournaments) = 20 times per month. Divide $1200 / 20 and it's about $60 per rd to play a high end private course. Round cost comes down to how often you play. Currently I am not a member of a pvt club, playing mostly public. I spend between $60-$175 per rd on average. I pay more per rd to play lesser quality public courses then my last high end pvt course.
[/quote]

If your club doesn't charge for cart rental (which I believe most clubs do, mine charges me $23 for 18 holes) then you may be onto something. Otherwise, the more you play at your club, the higher your monthly bill will be.

I tell people that ask me about club membership is that if you try to base your decision on somehow justifying that your cost per round will be lower at a club, walk away because it won't be. Club membership is a lifestyle that allows me to get in a 4 hour weekend round on even the busiest weekends of the year, to go as a single and easily get a game, to get out and play 4 or 5 holes on my way home from work, to get out and play hit and giggle with my wife and then have dinner with good friends on a Friday, to hang out at the pool on a hot Saturday after a round, etc etc etc. For that lifestyle, I'm willing to pay a premium over what I could play some very nice public golf courses in my area.
[/quote]

Not at the high end clubs you are referring to...but around here there are private clubs that are under $200/mo. For an entire family. And these days they are waving initiations.

These aren't high end championship level courses, but older layouts that are typically in much better condition than the daily fee courses. For a golfing family, it certainly is a money saver.

[Keg0brew]

Last time I saw the numbers, we have 7 clubs here in North Texas over $60k, with the highest at $215K (Dallas National).

[meroj]

[quote name='raynorfan1' timestamp='1336007506' post='4836072']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1335997283' post='4835050']
I won't go into the consequences if members get behind, and some do.
[/quote]

We have a pretty simple and effective way: if your account is 60 days in arrears, your name is posted at the front desk and you may not use the facilities until your account is fully paid. The rule has been in place for more than a hundred years and works surprisingly well.
[/quote]

This works well. At my club, once you're delinquent your name is posted in one of the main hallways that people pass on the way to the dining room. My wife tells me every time we pass it that if ever saw my name there, she will never step foot in the club again.

[Golfer1995]

I wish I was a member at a country club, period. I just take lessons at a 50k-ish initiation fee club.
I mean i guess the best course I've played for matches and tournaments has an apparent 100k initiation fee? A PGA tour event was played there and I believe it's coming back in '13?
My parents dont golf so they see no reason to dish out thousands of dollars for a membership at any local club (There are SO many country clubs within a 15 minute drive of my house)

[dporto]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1336673244' post='4889714']
[quote name='dporto' timestamp='1336650619' post='4887066']
I'd be interested to know what you guys feel is a reasonable amount to pay for a golf membership as a percentage of your net income? Given whatever amount that is, how often would you have to play to make it a worthwhile "investment" ?
[/quote]

Initiation costs do not translate to a percentage of net income; however, monthly dues and club spending will. Answer depends on what your NET monthly income, adding to savings, cost of living and what's left over, or disposable income.

The more you play at a club, the lower your monthly cost per round is. Initiation fee's don't factor into monthly costs, as it's a basic cost to join. Remember, joining a private club is NOT an investment, even if someone says its on the asset side of your balance sheet.

Say my dues were $1200 month, NOT including F/B monthly spending; my wife and I play a total of five times per week, "x" 4 weeks (not including tournaments) = 20 times per month. Divide $1200 / 20 and it's about $60 per rd to play a high end private course. Round cost comes down to how often you play. Currently I am not a member of a pvt club, playing mostly public. I spend between $60-$175 per rd on average. I pay more per rd to play lesser quality public courses then my last high end pvt course.
[/quote]


I really do get all that stuff, but it's way more complicated than the initial question...Once again, if you boil all that verbiage down, what would the total percentage of your net income be to make CC Membership "affordable" ... This shouldn't be that difficult (ie: mortgage = no more than 30% of net income to qualify). Aren't there any bankers here?

[Roddy1]

The local Robert Trent Jones Course (Russ Cochran's home course) is only about $10,000 to join. 5k /year and ~ $500 a month club house account. Almost an hour drive so I play the course by my house. I pull my cart out of my garage and drive over to the club house. Even if the course is too easy. I do have a tourney at the RTJ course next month. $150 with a practice round and a meal. Lots cheaper than green fees.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='dporto' timestamp='1337003573' post='4910776']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1336673244' post='4889714']
[quote name='dporto' timestamp='1336650619' post='4887066']
I'd be interested to know what you guys feel is a reasonable amount to pay for a golf membership as a percentage of your net income? Given whatever amount that is, how often would you have to play to make it a worthwhile "investment" ?
[/quote]

Initiation costs do not translate to a percentage of net income; however, monthly dues and club spending will. Answer depends on what your NET monthly income, adding to savings, cost of living and what's left over, or disposable income.

The more you play at a club, the lower your monthly cost per round is. Initiation fee's don't factor into monthly costs, as it's a basic cost to join. Remember, joining a private club is NOT an investment, even if someone says its on the asset side of your balance sheet.

Say my dues were $1200 month, NOT including F/B monthly spending; my wife and I play a total of five times per week, "x" 4 weeks (not including tournaments) = 20 times per month. Divide $1200 / 20 and it's about $60 per rd to play a high end private course. Round cost comes down to how often you play. Currently I am not a member of a pvt club, playing mostly public. I spend between $60-$175 per rd on average. I pay more per rd to play lesser quality public courses then my last high end pvt course.
[/quote]


I really do get all that stuff, but it's way more complicated than the initial question...Once again, if you boil all that verbiage down, what would the total percentage of your net income be to make CC Membership "affordable" ... This shouldn't be that difficult (ie: mortgage = no more than 30% of net income to qualify). Aren't there any bankers here?
[/quote]

I get what your trying to do, but it doesn't work like that. This is P&L 101, not banking. If it was banking 101 we wouldn't see so many banks going bankrupt.

Club membership comes out of discretionary income, like dinning out; not a "fixed" expense like a mortgage, car payment, utilities and healthcare payments. Its for that reason fiscally sound private clubs look at the discretionary income of potential members against fixed and variable monthly expenses.

Net monthly income is 5k, monthly fixed costs (mortgage/rent, car paymt(s)) are 3k. From what's left over, subtract the amount that goes into saving, and fixed variables like food, entertainment, clothing, etc, those that change month to month, depending on consumption of goods and services. What's left is discretionary income, where pvt club costs or greens fees come from.

Monthly costs at private club are not fixed, even though they appear so, as monthly dues. Where many people error in judgment regarding ability to join a private club to start is "if" they have to pay the initition fee in monthly payments over a number of years; that's over and above monthly dues. All that comes from monthly discretionary income. Add on top variable spending at the grill / restaurant and pro shop, and the expense of cart fees, which vary depending on how many times you play that month. What looks to be $300-$500 per month, is more like $600-$1000, maybe more of discretionary income. There is NO percentage of income when it comes to discretionary spending.

[DLiver]

[quote name='dporto' timestamp='1337003573' post='4910776']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1336673244' post='4889714']
[quote name='dporto' timestamp='1336650619' post='4887066']
I'd be interested to know what you guys feel is a reasonable amount to pay for a golf membership as a percentage of your net income? Given whatever amount that is, how often would you have to play to make it a worthwhile "investment" ?
[/quote]

Initiation costs do not translate to a percentage of net income; however, monthly dues and club spending will. Answer depends on what your NET monthly income, adding to savings, cost of living and what's left over, or disposable income.

The more you play at a club, the lower your monthly cost per round is. Initiation fee's don't factor into monthly costs, as it's a basic cost to join. Remember, joining a private club is NOT an investment, even if someone says its on the asset side of your balance sheet.

Say my dues were $1200 month, NOT including F/B monthly spending; my wife and I play a total of five times per week, "x" 4 weeks (not including tournaments) = 20 times per month. Divide $1200 / 20 and it's about $60 per rd to play a high end private course. Round cost comes down to how often you play. Currently I am not a member of a pvt club, playing mostly public. I spend between $60-$175 per rd on average. I pay more per rd to play lesser quality public courses then my last high end pvt course.
[/quote]


I really do get all that stuff, but it's way more complicated than the initial question...Once again, if you boil all that verbiage down, what would the total percentage of your net income be to make CC Membership "affordable" ... This shouldn't be that difficult (ie: mortgage = no more than 30% of net income to qualify). Aren't there any bankers here?
[/quote]

I think for CC membership to be comfortable, your annual costs need to be no more than roughly 10% of your gross annual income. IMO, an initiation fee is a separate issue that comes out of net wealth rather than annual cash flow.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='DLiver' timestamp='1337014157' post='4911956']

I think for CC membership to be comfortable, your annual costs need to be no more than roughly 10% of your gross annual income. IMO, an initiation fee is a separate issue that comes out of net wealth rather than annual cash flow.
[/quote]

I agree with your statement regarding initiation fee coming from net wealth. However, from our average private club reports, that's not the case. Ten (10%) of gross income??? You by chance work for the government??? Just joking. Maybe you had better share what minimum gross income your working off. When broken down using arbitrary 150k and 38% tax bracket, it turns into fuzzy math that would lead to insolvency. Using that income bracket it suggests that person can comfortably cover all household fixed and variable expenses, afford up to 1250 per month in dues, and still put money into saving account.

[DLiver]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1337016821' post='4912258']
[quote name='DLiver' timestamp='1337014157' post='4911956']
I think for CC membership to be comfortable, your annual costs need to be no more than roughly 10% of your gross annual income. IMO, an initiation fee is a separate issue that comes out of net wealth rather than annual cash flow.
[/quote]

I agree with your statement regarding initiation fee coming from net wealth. However, from our average private club reports, that's not the case. Ten (10%) of gross income??? You by chance work for the government??? Just joking. Maybe you had better share what minimum gross income your working off. When broken down using arbitrary 150k and 38% tax bracket, it turns into fuzzy math that would lead to insolvency. Using that income bracket it suggests that person can comfortably cover all household fixed and variable expenses, afford up to 1250 per month in dues, and still put money into saving account.
[/quote]

Broad strokes here (but I'm sure you'll ridicule it anyway): If you're making $100k and in your mid-40s to early 50s (typical country club member ages--at least when first joining), it is reasonable to assume you can comfortably afford $10,000 on CC expenses. If you have 5 kids in college, are house poor, and haven't started saving for retirement, then no it won't work.

I'm trying to provide some kind of feedback for the poster who asked the question. He can determine if it is helpful or not. In the end, eveyone has to look at their own situation and see what makes sense for them.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='DLiver' timestamp='1337022396' post='4913138']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1337016821' post='4912258']
[quote name='DLiver' timestamp='1337014157' post='4911956']
I think for CC membership to be comfortable, your annual costs need to be no more than roughly 10% of your gross annual income. IMO, an initiation fee is a separate issue that comes out of net wealth rather than annual cash flow.
[/quote]

I agree with your statement regarding initiation fee coming from net wealth. However, from our average private club reports, that's not the case. Ten (10%) of gross income??? You by chance work for the government??? Just joking. Maybe you had better share what minimum gross income your working off. When broken down using arbitrary 150k and 38% tax bracket, it turns into fuzzy math that would lead to insolvency. Using that income bracket it suggests that person can comfortably cover all household fixed and variable expenses, afford up to 1250 per month in dues, and still put money into saving account.
[/quote]
[u][b]
Broad strokes here (but I'm sure you'll ridicule it anyway): [/b][/u]If you're making $100k and in your mid-40s to early 50s (typical country club member ages--at least when first joining), it is reasonable to assume you can comfortably afford $10,000 on CC expenses. If you have 5 kids in college, are house poor, and haven't started saving for retirement, then no it won't work.

I'm trying to provide some kind of feedback for the poster who asked the question. He can determine if it is helpful or not. In the end, eveyone has to look at their own situation and see what makes sense for them.


[/quote]

I forgot there are people that feel anybody questioning their line of thinking, feel ridiculed ... Yep you provided... assumption.

[CPSOX]

[quote name='DLiver' timestamp='1337022396' post='4913138']
Broad strokes here (but I'm sure you'll ridicule it anyway): If you're making $100k and in your mid-40s to early 50s (typical country club member ages--at least when first joining), it is reasonable to assume you can comfortably afford $10,000 on CC expenses. If you have 5 kids in college, are house poor, and haven't started saving for retirement, then no it won't work.

I'm trying to provide some kind of feedback for the poster who asked the question. He can determine if it is helpful or not. In the end, eveyone has to look at their own situation and see what makes sense for them.
[/quote]

That's well said. Once the basics are covered, CC dues can fit in somewhere on many family budgets.

[dporto]

First off, no offence taken by any of the replies - this is the purpose of a "forum" no? Ok, it seems we're getting a little closer to what I was looking for... Call whatever is left over after the mortgage and other fixed expenses whatever you like (discretionary, net, etc...). Gross income is really meaning less for the sake of this discussion. The reason I'm after a percentage is because it takes out the variables of location (cost of living in one area as opposed to another) and should translate regardless of the area. So in "DLiver's" example he's basically saying 10% of Gross income "should be doable" ... While I disagree with the number (seems a little high...), at least he tried... Once again, this shouldn't be that difficult - there IS a number out there, we just have to figure out what it is

[ruascott]

[quote name='DLiver' timestamp='1337022396' post='4913138']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1337016821' post='4912258']
[quote name='DLiver' timestamp='1337014157' post='4911956']
I think for CC membership to be comfortable, your annual costs need to be no more than roughly 10% of your gross annual income. IMO, an initiation fee is a separate issue that comes out of net wealth rather than annual cash flow.
[/quote]

I agree with your statement regarding initiation fee coming from net wealth. However, from our average private club reports, that's not the case. Ten (10%) of gross income??? You by chance work for the government??? Just joking. Maybe you had better share what minimum gross income your working off. When broken down using arbitrary 150k and 38% tax bracket, it turns into fuzzy math that would lead to insolvency. Using that income bracket it suggests that person can comfortably cover all household fixed and variable expenses, afford up to 1250 per month in dues, and still put money into saving account.
[/quote]

Broad strokes here (but I'm sure you'll ridicule it anyway): If you're making $100k and in your mid-40s to early 50s (typical country club member ages--at least when first joining), it is reasonable to assume you can comfortably afford $10,000 on CC expenses. If you have 5 kids in college, are house poor, and haven't started saving for retirement, then no it won't work.

I'm trying to provide some kind of feedback for the poster who asked the question. He can determine if it is helpful or not. In the end, eveyone has to look at their own situation and see what makes sense for them.
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Geesh.....10% of gross income? That seems really high to me. And an incredibly stupid financial move. Someone making $100k/yr gross, should not be spending $850/mo on cc dues unless they are single and have very minimal living expenses. Jmo...guess I'm too conservative, but that smells of someone attempting to live above their means.

5% of gross maybe.

[DLiver]

[quote name='ruascott' timestamp='1337180895' post='4924848']Geesh.....10% of gross income? That seems really high to me. And an incredibly stupid financial move. Someone making $100k/yr gross, should not be spending $850/mo on cc dues unless they are single and have very minimal living expenses. Jmo...guess I'm too conservative, but that smells of someone attempting to live above their means.

5% of gross maybe.
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I'm talking about ALL CC expenses, not just dues. This includes F&B, pro shop expenses (including carts) etc. That stuff really adds up, and in many cases can exceed the cost of dues every month. It wouldn't be unusual for someone to pay $450/mo in dues, then have another $400/mo in other CC expenses. Typically a large chunk of that would be food & beverage, and those costs might not be an additional expense since you would do some of your dining at the CC instead of restaurants.

But as I explained in my earlier post, each person's situation is different and you need to decide what makes sense for you.

[LagunaLove]

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[quote name='raynorfan1' timestamp='1335889935' post='4824452']
[quote name='teejaywhy' timestamp='1335889186' post='4824342']
I assume the word you are looking for is "debt."

Tell that to the members of Quintero, Superstition Mountain, Blackstone, The Rim Club, etc.

I guarantee there are a lot of clubs built during the real estate boom that are being crushed by debt. But I guess, despite the six figure initiation, these are just middle class clubs.
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Add Boston Golf Club to the list...and I suppose that it's not debt per se. Some of them (I believe BGC is on this list) got built with cash from one or two individuals, but didn't attract enough members to cover the operating expenses and the original individuals get to a point where they no longer want to (or are able to) subsidize the club operations.

I would agree with Pepperturbo's assertion that the "high end" in AZ, CA, and TX is all in the 6 figure range. The interesting thing is that the 'old' ones: Riviera, LACC, etc. tend to be on the lower end of the range, while the 'new' ones: Bridges, Sherwood, etc. tend to be on the high end of the range.

The Northeast market is a little bit different in that we really don't have many "new" high-end clubs and the "old" ones aren't as expensive as most people believe them to be.
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I must disagree a little bit...LACC, Riviera, Wilshire and Hillcrest are all still 6 figure initiaion fees. Additionally, all 4 are very old school...Just played at Riv for the first time. No cell phones allowed, no shorts allowed on the course, no denim allowed on the property, no guest can play more than 4 times per year & then the guest fee + caddie + cart fee made it a $500 day but the facility is unreal. add great food and a great singel malt selection to that as well.
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Riviera isn't on the 'low-end' of anything. I believe their initiation is roughly $300k and they're owned by the Japanese. Played there about three weeks ago and saw people waring shorts. I will say, for how much I love Riv's golf course, no way I'd want to be a member there. Their golf service staff is awful, from what I've heard they cancel the member-guest almost every year, two of the best holes (6,10) have temporary greens usually at least two days a week. It's a golf course with a membership, not a club. Only played LACC once, but I don't think that's on the low-end of anything (unless you're comparing to Big Horn, Madison Club, etc.) and I believe the initiation process is quite long with dinner parties, etc.

[SilverBullets]

Theres four of them here in Columbus... Not sure the exact rates but I know they are in that range (Muirfield, Scioto, double eagle, and the golf club). All are top 100 and the latter 3 and very exclusive. Scioto at one time had a lifelong waiting list and family wills they would pass down the waiting list spot. Now it's just a interview with the board and some members, but getting a interview is very tough.

I believe double eagle doesnt have any monthly dues. On a quarterly basis they take the total cost of running the club, divide it up by the members and that is what you pay. They have a ton of out of town members. I've played there twice and both times I was one 2 groups on the course