60k + memberships

[teejaywhy]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1335887979' post='4824170']
The high end private clubs (equity or benevolent dictator owned) in CA, AZ, TX, etc., don't advertise, have no debit, and are not struggling for members. Fifty thousand initiation isn't high end either; more upper middle class; but that's not to say they don't have really wealthy members. Club stature depends on where the club is located, demographics and the culture. High end clubs are between 80k-400k initiation with dues from 700-1700 per month, plus F&B quarterlies, trail fees, lockers, etc. Its easy to spend 1500-2500k per mo, plus special events, ancillary costs, and annual capital expenditures. Many members at high end clubs typically have multiple membership too.

To the poster above that says high end clubs have to pay off debit... wrong. Age of club isn't germane either. High end club members write lump sum checks, so clubs have no debit to speak of. The clubs you're referring to are moderate cost clubs build around homes, where wealth varies among members, and club leadership has questionable fiscal judgment.

[/quote]

I assume the word you are looking for is "debt."

Tell that to the members of Quintero, Superstition Mountain, Blackstone, The Rim Club, etc.

I guarantee there are a lot of clubs built during the real estate boom that are being crushed by debt. But I guess, despite the six figure initiation, these are just middle class clubs.

[ruascott]

[quote name='daco81se' timestamp='1335824629' post='4818516']
[quote name='Tony_Ireland' timestamp='1335809487' post='4816152']
[quote name='Slapjax7s ' timestamp='1335809281' post='4816126']
some of my friends belong to Trump courses out here in NJ which cost up to $75k per year. I am a member of a nice club @ $1500 unlimited greens fees for a Junior Membership (up to age 36) No initiation or Food minimums.
[/quote]

jnr membership upto age 36, am i missing something?
[/quote]

Course I play at the Jr membership (they call it the young executive) is 21-45, they've all been raising the Jr m/ship age lately.
[/quote]

Junior memberships are common around here....usually a lower or no initiation...and lower monthly. The most prestigious club in our area charges about $40k initiation still, but the junior is only like $5k. But once you hit age 40 you gotta come up with the difference.

There are maybe 3-4 clubs in the area charging in the $30k range still. Most normal clubs have dropped initiations entirely, or almost to nothing. A nice club near me used to charge $20k....now they are down to about $5k with additional promotions to bring it down even more.

The monthly dues actually don't vary that much from high end to mid level...it's all in the upfront.

Private clubs will continue to drop...younger families just aren't as interested in clubs as previous generations. Some are even opening up to some public play to keep afloat.

[raynorfan1]

[quote name='teejaywhy' timestamp='1335889186' post='4824342']
I assume the word you are looking for is "debt."

Tell that to the members of Quintero, Superstition Mountain, Blackstone, The Rim Club, etc.

I guarantee there are a lot of clubs built during the real estate boom that are being crushed by debt. But I guess, despite the six figure initiation, these are just middle class clubs.
[/quote]

Add Boston Golf Club to the list...and I suppose that it's not debt per se. Some of them (I believe BGC is on this list) got built with cash from one or two individuals, but didn't attract enough members to cover the operating expenses and the original individuals get to a point where they no longer want to (or are able to) subsidize the club operations.

I would agree with Pepperturbo's assertion that the "high end" in AZ, CA, and TX is all in the 6 figure range. The interesting thing is that the 'old' ones: Riviera, LACC, etc. tend to be on the lower end of the range, while the 'new' ones: Bridges, Sherwood, etc. tend to be on the high end of the range.

The Northeast market is a little bit different in that we really don't have many "new" high-end clubs and the "old" ones aren't as expensive as most people believe them to be.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='teejaywhy' timestamp='1335889186' post='4824342']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1335887979' post='4824170']
The high end private clubs (equity or benevolent dictator owned) in CA, AZ, TX, etc., don't advertise, have no debit, and are not struggling for members. Fifty thousand initiation isn't high end either; more upper middle class; but that's not to say they don't have really wealthy members. Club stature depends on where the club is located, demographics and the culture. High end clubs are between 80k-400k initiation with dues from 700-1700 per month, plus F&B quarterlies, trail fees, lockers, etc. Its easy to spend 1500-2500k per mo, plus special events, ancillary costs, and annual capital expenditures. Many members at high end clubs typically have multiple membership too.

To the poster above that says high end clubs have to pay off debit... wrong. Age of club isn't germane either. High end club members write lump sum checks, so clubs have no debit to speak of. The clubs you're referring to are moderate cost clubs build around homes, where wealth varies among members, and club leadership has questionable fiscal judgment.

[/quote]

I assume the word you are looking for is "debt."

Tell that to the members of Quintero, Superstition Mountain, Blackstone, The Rim Club, etc.

I guarantee there are a lot of clubs built during the real estate boom that are being crushed by debt. But I guess, despite the six figure initiation, these are just middle class clubs.
[/quote]

Yep - that's the word... Dyslexia is troublesome and wouldn't wish it upon anyone. You're lucky all you have to do is correct the spelling of others.

You seem to think "high end" means any club that asks for "X" initiation fee means high end. Those clubs are not high end as they didn't attract enough wealthy members to maintain their club. Any club that sells equity memberships, then moves to non-equity has not only troublesome leadership, but questionable demographics. To see what I am talking about look at Rims Membership structure; 30k non-equity and 850 dues is not high end. Look at Seven Canyon's... it was a costly build and idea, that attracted some folks; but colapsed at being a private high end golf vacation attraction. Why because it wasn't good enough, nor have the location that attracts a lot of wealthy people. That's not to say some people wouldn't think it's high end, because to them, those numbers might be high To me they are not. On the other hand, Sherwood Country Club in Thousand Oaks, north of LA, was founded during the tech boom; it's a high end club as well as The Bridges in Rancho Santa Fe. Any club can ask for "X", doesn't mean its high end. Just like any individual can say he's a gentleman, yet his actions speak louder then his words.

[raynorfan1]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1335892028' post='4824694']
You seem to think "high end" means any club that asks for "X" initiation fee means high end. Those clubs are not high end as they didn't attract enough wealthy members to maintain their club. Any club that sells equity memberships, then moves to non-equity has not only troublesome leadership, but questionable demographics. To see what I am talking about look at Rims Membership structure; 30k non-equity and 850 dues is not high end. Look at Seven Canyon's... it was a costly build and idea, that attracted some folks; but colapsed at being a private high end golf vacation attraction. Why because it wasn't good enough, nor have the location that attracts a lot of wealthy people. That's not to say some people wouldn't think it's high end, because to them, those numbers might be high To me they are not. On the other hand, Sherwood Country Club in Thousand Oaks, north of LA, was founded during the tech boom; it's a high end club as well as The Bridges in Rancho Santa Fe. Any club can ask for "X", doesn't mean its high end. Just like any individual can say he's a gentleman, yet his actions speak louder then his words.
[/quote]

The concept of "high end" is an interesting one, and I guess it can be judged on a few different metrics. However, this thread [i]specifically[/i] asks about clubs with "$60K+ memberships" - so that's the definition that we're working with.

There are definitely a lot of "high end" clubs that are built and subsequently fail.

[jbrunone]

[quote name='raynorfan1' timestamp='1335825094' post='4818588']
[quote name='jbrunone' timestamp='1335824281' post='4818464']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1335753046' post='4812920']
I drive by a course daily (though you can't see it), that's $150K and by invitation only.
[/quote]
Which one? tcc?
[/quote]

TCC isn't even close to that $$.

The only ones in New England that [i]might[/i] get into that initiation territory are the "new" ones - Old Sandwich, Boston Golf Club, etc. - but I don't think anybody is in that territory right now. If you told me that there was one course commanding that cash right now, I would bet on Old Sandwich.

The old line clubs cost [i]much[/i] less than people think they do. Those clubs simply don't need the money - it's the trendy new ones that are grappling with financial issues that cost $$.
[/quote]
I agree however I didnt think sean drives by BGC and know it isnt Olde sandwich

[swbyps]

I told yall Pepperturbo would let you know what was up.....

[ruascott]

There's a new club near me that includes a real estate development....its a nice course, and the clubhouse/amenities are very nice...they are still wanting $50k. The monthly is very reasonable, but $50k is not....I'd be shocked if they are charging that 5 years from now.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='raynorfan1' timestamp='1335892688' post='4824768']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1335892028' post='4824694']
You seem to think "high end" means any club that asks for "X" initiation fee means high end. Those clubs are not high end as they didn't attract enough wealthy members to maintain their club. Any club that sells equity memberships, then moves to non-equity has not only troublesome leadership, but questionable demographics. To see what I am talking about look at Rims Membership structure; 30k non-equity and 850 dues is not high end. Look at Seven Canyon's... it was a costly build and idea, that attracted some folks; but colapsed at being a private high end golf vacation attraction. Why because it wasn't good enough, nor have the location that attracts a lot of wealthy people. That's not to say some people wouldn't think it's high end, because to them, those numbers might be high To me they are not. On the other hand, Sherwood Country Club in Thousand Oaks, north of LA, was founded during the tech boom; it's a high end club as well as The Bridges in Rancho Santa Fe. Any club can ask for "X", doesn't mean its high end. Just like any individual can say he's a gentleman, yet his actions speak louder then his words.
[/quote]

The concept of "high end" is an interesting one, and I guess it can be judged on a few different metrics. However, this thread [i]specifically[/i] asks about clubs with "$60K+ memberships" - so that's the definition that we're working with.

There are definitely a lot of "high end" clubs that are built and subsequently fail.
[/quote]

It sounds as though you're suggesting that what constitutes "high end" is subjective here; I don't think so, and club metrics (wealth) do not vary either. Just ask Obama. Presuming clubs range from a low of "x" to a high of "x"... 60k is in the middle; least that's what I learned while being on the board of two different types of clubs. Yep, this thread topic talks of 60k memberships, and in that category, many struggle or have failed to stay private, so we can agree there.

[Sean2]

[quote name='jbrunone' timestamp='1335824281' post='4818464']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1335753046' post='4812920']
I drive by a course daily (though you can't see it), that's $150K and by invitation only.
[/quote]
Which one? tcc?
[/quote]
Boston Golf Club J. Do you think if I turn in the driveway they'd let me play 18? :-)

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1335895934' post='4825116']
[quote name='jbrunone' timestamp='1335824281' post='4818464']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1335753046' post='4812920']
I drive by a course daily (though you can't see it), that's $150K and by invitation only.
[/quote]
Which one? tcc?
[/quote]
Boston Golf Club J. Do you think if I turn in the driveway they'd let me play 18? :-)
[/quote]

Depends on what you're driving, and what you say in the pro shop.

[Sean2]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1335896710' post='4825220']
Boston Golf Club J. Do you think if I turn in the driveway they'd let me play 18? :-)

Depends on what you're driving, and what you say in the pro shop.
[/quote]
Honda Ridgeline. Please?

Yeah, right. :-)

[cardoustie]

Toronto here

Our course posts 85k entry. You can get in for ~40k-42k nowadays. Annuals are $7 grand plus 1500 F&B. This is more April to November basically vs whole yr. This also gets you on 30 other tracks in Ontario and I have priveleges at all the Clubcorp courses in the USA

In my hometown, Magna GC, built by Stronach, $125k to get in and 12k per yr

There are lots of clubs in Toronto commanding north of 60k .... maybe 10 or 12 is my guess. Off the top of my head .... Rosedale, St Georges, The National, Magna, Beacon Hall etc

Played a great private track in Stuart FL 2 weeks ago called the Fox Club. Get 20 or so players a day (sort of like Redtail GC West of here). Baker-Finch and Darren Clarke and the like are Fox Club members, lots of senior European tour guys.
I think they are 55k right now

[jbrunone]

I drive by a course daily (though you can't see it), that's $150K and by invitation only.

Which one? tcc?

Boston Golf Club J. Do you think if I turn in the driveway they'd let me play 18? :-)

 

probably all the members left for Olde Sandwich

 

They are begging for us Sean!

[jbrunone]

[quote name='raynorfan1' timestamp='1335889935' post='4824452']
[quote name='teejaywhy' timestamp='1335889186' post='4824342']
I assume the word you are looking for is "debt."

Tell that to the members of Quintero, Superstition Mountain, Blackstone, The Rim Club, etc.

I guarantee there are a lot of clubs built during the real estate boom that are being crushed by debt. But I guess, despite the six figure initiation, these are just middle class clubs.
[/quote]

Add Boston Golf Club to the list...and I suppose that it's not debt per se. Some of them (I believe BGC is on this list) got built with cash from one or two individuals, but didn't attract enough members to cover the operating expenses and the original individuals get to a point where they no longer want to (or are able to) subsidize the club operations.

I would agree with Pepperturbo's assertion that the "high end" in AZ, CA, and TX is all in the 6 figure range. The interesting thing is that the 'old' ones: Riviera, LACC, etc. tend to be on the lower end of the range, while the 'new' ones: Bridges, Sherwood, etc. tend to be on the high end of the range.

[b]The Northeast market is a little bit different in that we really don't have many "new" high-end clubs and the "old" ones aren't as expensive as most people believe them to be.[/b]
[/quote]

That is true, kittansett and tcc are chunk change compared to OS and BGC, Getting into the clubs however is a different story.

[rc1111]

Depending on the area, 60K is not unusual, and could be inexpensive. I would hazard, more of less, that maybe half are more than that and half less. Really, it is like housing, it depends on the neighborhood. That does not mean there are not much better bargains or prices on some really fine clubs and courses. I think some of the high cost clubs are not just for the golf course but for the whole CC experience. However, I know well one club that was pretty much golf only (it had a good place to eat and good locker room but no other typical CC amenities) and it was 75K to join 20 years ago. And yes there was a waiting time and you had to be asked to join. The monthly costs were very harsh. But for a pure golf only place it was a great one.

Over the years, I have come to realize CCs have their place and their golf course may or may not be an accurate gauge of their value. Great golf courses can be found in a lot of unexpected places and some of my best golfing experiences have been on fine courses that were affordable for most people. Its the golf course and the people that make a great experience, not the name on the place. And some fine clubs with great dining rooms, tennis facilities, pools, spas, etc. have had some pretty weak golf courses associated with them. I might even say some club courses are almost embarrassingly bad for the money.

I am not judgemental of other people's choices of what they value. Whether it is cars, clubs, homes, clothes, etc., what people choose is their business. What I like is a great course, fast play, challenging and fast greens and well maintained grounds with top notch practice areas. It does not cost 5 figures to find such a place in most locations, but obviously if you live in 90210, Cape Cod, or Westchester you would be out of luck (I am guessing.)

[teejaywhy]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1335895674' post='4825084']

It sounds as though you're suggesting that what constitutes "high end" is subjective here; I don't think so, and club metrics (wealth) do not vary either.
[/quote]

So your definition of a "high end" club is simple: One that does not fail.

[Mainlinegolfer]

[quote name='raynorfan1' timestamp='1335889935' post='4824452']

The Northeast market is a little bit different in that we really don't have many "new" high-end clubs and the "old" ones aren't as expensive as most people believe them to be.
[/quote]
+1. The most "high end" clubs (to use your term) in my area and many of the other top private clubs I know, while great old clubs and top 10-75-ranked golf courses, are not the most expensive, relative to some "new" clubs elsewhere in the U.S. with $60k-$250k+ initiation fees. The new clubs often seem to have large, elaborate clubhouses and facilities designed to impress when, in fact, the most exclusive or "best" private clubs I have been to often have comfortable but unassuming clubhouses. (Think the opposite of a Trump club).

Furthermore, the ability to write a 5-figure or 6-figure (or even 7-figure) check alone will certainly not gain you membership in these clubs. However, there are many other private clubs and public courses to choose from that fit virtually all budgets and personalities.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='teejaywhy' timestamp='1335907489' post='4826574']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1335895674' post='4825084']
It sounds as though you're suggesting that what constitutes "high end" is subjective here; I don't think so, and club metrics (wealth) do not vary either.
[/quote]

So your definition of a "high end" club is simple: One that does not fail.
[/quote]

Not at all. What constitutes high end clubs like Whisper Rock, The Bridges in SD and Sherwood CC, Islesworth, Lake Nona, and Augusta, has everything to do with club culture and the economic level of its membership, and owner(s). Someone (single) that makes 150k per year can afford 40-60k buy in, but most of the time needs a mufti-year payment plan, and 300-500 per month dues. That same person easily gets hurt by a faltering economy, and could end up struggling, as his reserves are limited. Now, consider any club with the majority of its members in the 100-200k range, and a limited number of really wealthy members, is likely to hurt as well. Big difference between that level of club and one where the average earning is 500k -1M and retirees have 15M+ or more in the bank.

I know a guy that without thinking much about cost, plunked down 12M "cash" to buy the club he was a member of. Another person I am acquainted with plunked down 5M "cash" to buy a resort / high end course because he's always wanted one... mind you that's not his profession. He owns another company.

[Hutch306]

I'm going to assume here that if I were to get invited to join a $100K club a year, the club wouldn't expect a check that same day for my initiation. Instead, I would ASSUME, that they would either accept a payment plan to cover my fee, along with paying my dues. If the club will not offer a payment plan, then I've again got to ASSUME that a bank would loan me the money and let me make monthly installments on it.

Now, GolfWRX, teach me your ways of the world. If I joined a $100K club today, can I finance that amount or does it have to be cash out of my pocket up front due at the time of signing?

[ruascott]

[quote name='Hutch306' timestamp='1335917120' post='4827500']
I'm going to assume here that if I were to get invited to join a $100K club a year, the club wouldn't expect a check that same day for my initiation. Instead, I would ASSUME, that they would either accept a payment plan to cover my fee, along with paying my dues. If the club will not offer a payment plan, then I've again got to ASSUME that a bank would loan me the money and let me make monthly installments on it.

Now, GolfWRX, teach me your ways of the world. If I joined a $100K club today, can I finance that amount or does it have to be cash out of my pocket up front due at the time of signing?
[/quote]

Some may, many won't. If it's a $100k club, the expectation is you have that cash available.

[Sean2]

probably all the members left for Olde Sandwich

 

They are begging for us Sean!

To caddy maybe J! :drinks:

[act0fgod]

probably all the members left for Olde Sandwich

 

They are begging for us Sean!

To caddy maybe J! :drinks:

 

 

I'll throw something out. A number of clubs require the purchase of a home (or land) within a certain area in relation to the course and then also require a transfer fee if the previous owner was a member - if they weren't there is often still an initiation fee (can be built into price of the home).

 

Many people are talking about refundable membership fees. To be completly honest I don't really care if the fee is refundable. If I'm joining a club I'll stay a member till I die.

 

It's also interesting to note that many relatively well known clubs in the UK offer lifetime memberships to residents outside the UK for 10-30k.

[fore_life]

[quote name='teejaywhy' timestamp='1335907489' post='4826574']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1335895674' post='4825084']

It sounds as though you're suggesting that what constitutes "high end" is subjective here; I don't think so, and club metrics (wealth) do not vary either.
[/quote]

So your definition of a "high end" club is simple: One that does not fail.
[/quote]


One that does not fail to offer cohibas and single malt scotches.

[Thrillhouse]

[quote name='teejaywhy' timestamp='1335907489' post='4826574']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1335895674' post='4825084']
It sounds as though you're suggesting that what constitutes "high end" is subjective here; I don't think so, and club metrics (wealth) do not vary either.
[/quote]

So your definition of a "high end" club is simple: One that does not fail.
[/quote]

I like your new avatar better than the old one. Very [i]cigar aficionado [/i]

[ruascott]

probably all the members left for Olde Sandwich

 

They are begging for us Sean!

To caddy maybe J! :drinks:

 

 

I'll throw something out. A number of clubs require the purchase of a home (or land) within a certain area in relation to the course and then also require a transfer fee if the previous owner was a member - if they weren't there is often still an initiation fee (can be built into price of the home).

 

Many people are talking about refundable membership fees. To be completly honest I don't really care if the fee is refundable. If I'm joining a club I'll stay a member till I die.

 

It's also interesting to note that many relatively well known clubs in the UK offer lifetime memberships to residents outside the UK for 10-30k.

 

That's a big deal for me. There is a club in my area that is $25k. I've actually considered doing it, but only because the amount is refundable upon resignation. Never know when life throws a curve ball either financially or even a physical move elsewhere. this is obviously different for others.

[HardHatsRequired]

[quote name='ruascott' timestamp='1335965881' post='4830992']
That's a big deal for me. There is a club in my area that is $25k. I've actually considered doing it, but only because the amount is refundable upon resignation. Never know when life throws a curve ball either financially or even a physical move elsewhere. this is obviously different for others.
[/quote]

Just make sure you fully read the terms of the refund; many have significant lag times between resignation and refunding and/or are continent about filling your spot. If you do decide to join, I would strongly discourage you from thinking of the 25k initiation as a liquid asset.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='Hutch306' timestamp='1335917120' post='4827500']
I'm going to assume here that if I were to get invited to join a $100K club a year, the club wouldn't expect a check that same day for my initiation. Instead, I would ASSUME, that they would either accept a payment plan to cover my fee, along with paying my dues. If the club will not offer a payment plan, then I've again got to ASSUME that a bank would loan me the money and let me make monthly installments on it.

Now, GolfWRX, teach me your ways of the world. If I joined a $100K club today, can I finance that amount or does it have to be cash out of my pocket up front due at the time of signing?


[/quote]

Lets presume the club in question isn't struggling... You get voted in by the BOD/membership committee after a series of meetings, dinners, and rounds of golf with various key club members. At my last club it took three months before approval. To start, you'll provide detailed financials and bank references to be verified. Along the way the approval committee will discuss how sound your resources are; under the premise, our club has no debit, and on sound fiscal ground). We expect our members to be the same.

If someone requests a payment plan our first thought is he can't afford this club. But, to take it further, the question is can he afford dues of 800-1k, + the large payment towards paying off the initiation fee, on top of other club costs; and comfortably cover his cost of living. If a club offers a payment plan, IMO it suggests concern. But, if they do, it's typically 2-4yrs; NOT 10-30 like a mortgage. Furthermore, when someone has a high salary - say 20-30k monthly, or more, but not the disposable income to make one payment, it causes deeper review. Someone that wants a payment plan to join such a club, and uses the line, his 100k is invested elsewhere, is likely living above his means...

PS - there are high end clubs where you join for life. NO selling off of your membership. Other clubs allow selling of the membership, but you put it up for sale through the club. It goes on a list and isn't sold out of order. Even if you move prior to its sale, you keep paying dues until it's sold. The club typically takes 25-50% of the sale price, and the balance goes to the retiring member. Be advised, clubs that have 100% refund upon leaving have detailed stipulations to meet.

[raynorfan1]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1335973800' post='4832058']
Lets presume the club in question isn't struggling... You get voted in by the BOD/membership committee after a series of meetings, dinners, and rounds of golf with various key club members. At my last club it took three months before approval. To start, you'll provide detailed financials and bank references to be verified. Along the way the approval committee will discuss how sound your resources are; under the premise, our club has no debit, and on sound fiscal ground). We expect our members to be the same.

If someone requests a payment plan our first thought is he can't afford this club. But, to take it further, the question is can he afford dues of 800-1k, + the large payment towards paying off the initiation fee, on top of other club costs; and comfortably cover his cost of living. If a club offers a payment plan, IMO it suggests concern. But, if they do, it's typically 2-4yrs; NOT 10-30 like a mortgage. Furthermore, when someone has a high salary - say 20-30k monthly, or more, but not the disposable income to make one payment, it causes deeper review. Someone that wants a payment plan to join such a club, and uses the line, his 100k is invested elsewhere, is likely living above his means...
[/quote]

It's funny how regional this is. The clubs that I'm familiar with would [i]never[/i] ask about finances. It's just not done. The implicit assumption is that a sponsor wouldn't put somebody forward who couldn't afford it. The idea that you would ask for [i]references[/i]? If a member sponsored me and two seconded my application, that's all the references that the club needs. Any discussion of finances is strictly frowned upon - I didn't even know what the initiation fee and dues were until I got the bill (I later learned that the 'correct' process is that the Sponsor is meant to let the applicant know what the fees are). The implication being that if you have to ask, you can't afford it.

As for payment plans, interestingly enough, our initation fees can, with a discreet inquiry, be paid over three or five years. This is mostly to allow legacy members (i.e. the kids of members) an opportunity to join at a young age without a huge commitment up front.

[mshills]

This thread delivers.