At what limit should slow play = partial refund?

[golfdad907]

[quote name='crapula' timestamp='1343673594' post='5378824']
6 hours? That's it?

If you are unhappy with that courses pace of play, don't play there.

6 hours is normal in Los Angeles on a weekend starting after 8am. Hell, I'll play a 5 hour round during the week starting at 6am.

You share the course with 120 strangers, get over slow play or don't play those courses.

You have no right to ask or receive a refund. Sure, there are times I wish it was possible, but seriously, get real.
[/quote]

I'd go insane. We tee off early on a very popular course, but 3 1/2 is about max. Our Rangers do a good job of keeping things moving.

I'd ask the Golf Director if they have pace of play strategy, and if not, wouldn't go back, If so, might suggest a 9 hole "human rain delay" check.

[crapula]

I have left so many rounds early in LA, most of the time I can deal with 6 hours, but some days it pisses me off.

I never feel entitled to a refund, out here, I know exactly what could happen if I play at prime time... or twilight... or super twilight.


There are two courses I will never play again, Chester Washington and The Links at Victoria (Ugliest course in the US). Also, Skylinks is on my sh*t list, last round there was 6 hours and the course was in awful condition.


I think I have played 3 or 4 rounds in under 4 hours, one was in San Diego as a walk on single, the other 2 or 3 might have been dreams I had.

[Big Ben]

I feel for ya bud, I would truly give up the game under that scenario...BB

[mickeyward]

most of the public/semi private courses in my area post a 2 hour time limit per side, yet that is rarely if ever enforced. Although a couple course have great marshalls who are not afraid to kick a slow playing group in the rear.

For someone like myself who is stuck at work every mon-fri 8-6pm does not allow for tons of time to play golf, slow play is a major problem. On the weekends when I do have the time to play, i also have to fit in the everyday household chores, diy projects, errands, etc....I simply cant afford to have a 6 hour round. Anything above 4.5-5 hours is just ridiculous in my opinion in non tournament settings.

I think carts should be MANDATORY on weekends, or atleast before a certain time. Save the walking for midweek and evening play.

If a round takes over 5 hours due to slow play of groups infront of you I think you should be granted a coupon for return visit if not a partial refund.

[2putttom]

At Bandon There is a starter.....A marshall on the sixth and usaully ninth tees. Ocassionally one driving around checking in with the marshalls ( grand poobaa) slow play is a detrement to the bottom line and will not be tolerated.

[Clambake]

OK, 6 hours is way too long, but it sounds like this was unusual for you since you apparently don't experience rounds that slow very often. In that case, just chalk it up to a bad day. Life could be worse.

But something I don't understand. Several people here said your only choice is to to just play elsewhere. Why is that the only choice? Go onto golf forums like here, Greenskeeper, Yelp, etc. and name the course and the problem. You can express your dissatisfaction with more than just your feet! To the OP, why are you not telling what course it is? Why not write to the course manager and politely express your poor experience? The passive aggressive approach here just seems, well, too passive.

[wingedfoot97]

[quote name='Clambake' timestamp='1343937753' post='5397814']
OK, 6 hours is way too long, but it sounds like this was unusual for you since you apparently don't experience rounds that slow very often. In that case, just chalk it up to a bad day. Life could be worse.

But something I don't understand. Several people here said your only choice is to to just play elsewhere. Why is that the only choice? Go onto golf forums like here, Greenskeeper, Yelp, etc. and name the course and the problem. You can express your dissatisfaction with more than just your feet! To the OP, why are you not telling what course it is? Why not write to the course manager and politely express your poor experience? The passive aggressive approach here just seems, well, too passive.
[/quote]

Well said.

[GooseHook]

A course around here offers a post-round rebate of $10 if you play in less than 4:30. It does help to speed up play on the weekends

[Big Ben]

Now that's a good idea, speak too the patrons wallets!

[SeattleRyan]

It's sort of stupid to think that a course would want to avoid pissing off slow players. Faster pace of play = more players which = more money. Duh! Any decent course has a marshal on top of this. If the pace of play is too slow than the marshal isn't doing their job.

There's always some idiot who slows things down. I used to play with someone like this. It was almost unbearable. These people are so selfish and have no respect for other players. She'd grab a 5 iron. Set up. Practice swing. Look at the green for 10 long seconds. Practice swing. 5 second pause. "No, better use my 6". Repeat the previous steps. "Ah, forget it, I'll use my 5". Tops the ball. Repeat!

Then she gets upset when someone hits into her, or when the marshal tells her she's playing too slow.

This is my ultimate golf pet peeve!

[Kadin 25]

What is SHE doing out of the kitchen??? I'm kidding !

Ok first off she has a right to be ticked off for someone hitting into her. There is never a time when that is acceptable. Can't stand the ignorant fools who continue to do this.

Secondly someone needs to explain to her In a nice way that she needs pick up her pre shot routine pace.

If the Marshal informing her that her pace is too slow and she is too stubborn or inconsiderate to shorten her pre shot routine well then maybe she needs to head back to the kitchen.

If this is a good friend of yours give her a heads up on this. If not then maybe find another playing partner.

[golfcardsx2]

The course I play on regularly is often very slow, but that means 4.5 or 5 hours on the weekend. There have been times when they have outings or an event of some sort and it has taken longer. We've gone into the clubhouse, told them that it just took 3 hours for the front nine and they've given us a voucher for the 9 holes that we didn't get in. I haven't been happy during these times, but at least they make some attempt to take care of us. I'm not sure how 6 hours for a round of golf is considered acceptable anywhere. I once visited a friend in LA and we played at a course that was jam packed with 5-somes and it took that long. It was not an enjoyable experience.

The thing that frustrates me is that this course advertises how it's a top 5 public course in our state, etc, but then has tee times scheduled every 8 minutes and the rangers are very rarely seen--which leads to the near 5 hour rounds. Pace of play just doesn't seem to be a priority. I have spoken to many of my colleagues at work who won't go out to play there because of the pace of play, so it seems like they are leaving money on the table by being so lax about it.

[3_Jack_Par]

[quote name='mickeyward' timestamp='1343924381' post='5396598']
I think carts should be MANDATORY on weekends, or atleast before a certain time. Save the walking for midweek and evening play.
[/quote]
I disagree -- I think carts are often a big contributor to slow play, because people don't use them correctly, not getting ready to hit while their partners are hitting. The seem to think that since they have a cart, they have to drive from ball to ball and never walk more than a few feet. When people walk, they go directly to their balls, and tend to get ready to hit with less delay. If you have people who know how to play correctly with a cart, it can be faster, but it's rarely the case. Carts seem to make people lazy, which slows the pace when there's too much time taken between people being ready to hit when it's their turn.

[bremnerdc]

instead of asking for a refund, just ask for a rain check. i've never had a course say no to a rain check for slow play or rain... in fact just yesterday i rented a cart for 18 holes at my country club, the guy in front of me was playing so slow i decided to get a rain check for the cart for the next time...

[BlackDiamondPar5]

[quote name='bremnerdc' timestamp='1345670761' post='5517776']
instead of asking for a refund, just ask for a rain check. i've never had a course say no to a rain check for slow play or rain... in fact just yesterday i rented a cart for 18 holes at my country club, the guy in front of me was playing so slow i decided to get a rain check for the cart for the next time...
[/quote]

Definitely a rain check at the turn upon your request.

To the OP, did you try calling the pro shop to ask if something could be done that day to help pace of play? Maybe they don't care but it's worth calling from the course.

[Sause]

My Sunday morning foursome plays a round in 3 hours and 10 Minutes. We have the tee time reserved three months in advance. Abilities of the group range from mid 80's to a buddy still trying to break 90 for the first time. When we finish the next closest group is 3-4 holes behind us. It's funny because our round never feels rushed, we play ready golf and have no problem waiting for a player to find his ball.

I have played the 5+ hour round and experienced a 3 hour, 9 hole round. It's one thing if mother nature interferes but it's extremely bad golf etiquette to hold up the players behind you like some people do.

The I've paid my money excuse should get you thrown off the course. If I were the GM and heard that s*** I would refund the golfer(s) and ask them to leave.

[Golf-Junkie]

I pretty much stopped playing muni golf as a result of that very issue. Some people say that a decline in golf is the bane of the industry - I would suggest the opposite, that its better for the game if we have fewer, more passionate (ie, better) players.

Just imagine: what if golf courses assumed a quasi-private club business model and simply let the price per round naturally fluctuate with the dynamics of supply and demand. Less golfers = faster play and generally better conditions, but at a higher cost. More golfers, slower play but at a lower cost. (Private clubs redistribute the added costs of supressed demand back to the membership through monthly dues or via assessments.) Golf Clubs with lower overall operating costs would have green fees that range in a certain band, while other more well funded clubs would have green fees that range in different bands.

Read: Adam Smith and the "black hand".

[Johnny Biarritz]

Don't count on ever getting a refund for slow play. I have stopped after 9 holes and basically asked for a rain check for the other 9 holes and clubs have been accepting of that. To a certain degree, slow play can't be helped, no matter what you do. On a full course, you'll lose 2 to 3 minutes a group through the day. Anyone who has been in a business a while can tell you that, as can any tour rules official. So it all depends on the first group out, they need to finish fast and the rest keep up. First group takes 5 hours to play and the day is done as far as time goes. Tough call for courses. But bottom line, don't ever expect to get a refund for slow play, rain check is as good as you can hope for.

[andef]

[quote name='mickeyward' timestamp='1343924381' post='5396598']
most of the public/semi private courses in my area post a 2 hour time limit per side, yet that is rarely if ever enforced. Although a couple course have great marshalls who are not afraid to kick a slow playing group in the rear.

For someone like myself who is stuck at work every mon-fri 8-6pm does not allow for tons of time to play golf, slow play is a major problem. On the weekends when I do have the time to play, i also have to fit in the everyday household chores, diy projects, errands, etc....I simply cant afford to have a 6 hour round. Anything above 4.5-5 hours is just ridiculous in my opinion in non tournament settings.

[b]I think carts should be MANDATORY on weekends, or atleast before a certain time.[/b] Save the walking for midweek and evening play.

If a round takes over 5 hours due to slow play of groups infront of you I think you should be granted a coupon for return visit if not a partial refund.
[/quote]

Why? Unless I'm in a group of slow players, my foursomes usually have no issues keeping up with groups who use carts ahead of us. I don't see why I should have to pay extra for a cart when I don't want to take one. Mandatory carts are definitely not the solution for slow play.

[Johnny Biarritz]

+1 Only reason for mandatory carts is so that courses can make extra money in the mornings, or whenever really. Most operators will even admit to that if you squeeze them a little bit. I will admit that walking is slower than carts, but a foursome of guys who know how to walk a course can move around quickly. I've walked 18 in about 3 1/2 hours as a foursome and done sub-2 hours as a single, walking, NOT running, just so that is clear.

[Thug Hunter]

[quote name='andef' timestamp='1347198046' post='5611081']
[quote name='mickeyward' timestamp='1343924381' post='5396598']
most of the public/semi private courses in my area post a 2 hour time limit per side, yet that is rarely if ever enforced. Although a couple course have great marshalls who are not afraid to kick a slow playing group in the rear.

For someone like myself who is stuck at work every mon-fri 8-6pm does not allow for tons of time to play golf, slow play is a major problem. On the weekends when I do have the time to play, i also have to fit in the everyday household chores, diy projects, errands, etc....I simply cant afford to have a 6 hour round. Anything above 4.5-5 hours is just ridiculous in my opinion in non tournament settings.

[b]I think carts should be MANDATORY on weekends, or atleast before a certain time.[/b] Save the walking for midweek and evening play.

If a round takes over 5 hours due to slow play of groups infront of you I think you should be granted a coupon for return visit if not a partial refund.
[/quote]

Why? Unless I'm in a group of slow players, my foursomes usually have no issues keeping up with groups who use carts ahead of us. I don't see why I should have to pay extra for a cart when I don't want to take one. [b]Mandatory carts are definitely not the solution for slow play.[/b]
[/quote]

Carts may not be the solution, but it definitely wouldn't hurt. I believe the game would be even slower if carts weren't used. I never see walkers in our area, it's just too hot. I can't imagine how slow some of the guys I've seen playing golf would play if they didn't have a cart to ride. Not to mention, many courses around here have a pretty good distance between a green and the next tee box. Sometimes a minute or two drive in a cart and likely a 5 minute walk. It's not your group of fast walkers that can hang with the cart group in front of you, it's the slow a** group that likes to chat like women after every shot while they walk 150 yards to their tee shot.

[Thug Hunter]

[quote name='John K Moore' timestamp='1347198721' post='5611123']
+1 Only reason for mandatory carts is so that courses can make extra money in the mornings, or whenever really. Most operators will even admit to that if you squeeze them a little bit.[b] I will admit that walking is slower than carts, but a foursome of guys who know how to walk a course can move around quickly[/b]. I've walked 18 in about 3 1/2 hours as a foursome and done sub-2 hours as a single, walking, NOT running, just so that is clear.
[/quote]

That's the problem, the [b]majority[/b] of golfers don't.

[Johnny Biarritz]

Thug Hunter- You're right, most don't. However, from what I have seen in 15 years of playing golf and working in the business, those that show up at 8am on a Saturday wanting to walk the course know what's up. They can move around the course.

The main problem is that you have two types of golfers, as far as pace goes: those that play as fast as they can and those that play as fast as they want. Most playing as fast as they can play really fast (I've seen a golfer play 18 holes in 30 minutes using a cart) and most playing as fast as they want are slow. When a fast-as-they-want foursome goes off first, or early in the day, you're in trouble. I was rangering once and had one of these groups go off first, I told them they needed to pick up the pace, one of the guys cussed me out and threatened to beat my a**...Pro jumped my crap for telling these guys that they needed to move along, rather than throwing these guys off the course with no refund (what I would have done). Tells you how much operators care about slow play, when it really gets serious anyway.

[SPY ZINGER]

A course near me allows a rain check for any reason, they just pro-rate your round and issue a check based on holes played. On their website, they state "we understand things come up". Whether its pace of play, rain, call from the office....they don't care and will cut you a rain check.

[clewallen]

Yea the courses where I am at I keep searching because I'm new to the area but 4 courses...4 5hr rounds and no Marshall in site

[andef]

[quote name='Thug Hunter' timestamp='1347199012' post='5611151']
[quote name='andef' timestamp='1347198046' post='5611081']
[quote name='mickeyward' timestamp='1343924381' post='5396598']
most of the public/semi private courses in my area post a 2 hour time limit per side, yet that is rarely if ever enforced. Although a couple course have great marshalls who are not afraid to kick a slow playing group in the rear.

For someone like myself who is stuck at work every mon-fri 8-6pm does not allow for tons of time to play golf, slow play is a major problem. On the weekends when I do have the time to play, i also have to fit in the everyday household chores, diy projects, errands, etc....I simply cant afford to have a 6 hour round. Anything above 4.5-5 hours is just ridiculous in my opinion in non tournament settings.

[b]I think carts should be MANDATORY on weekends, or atleast before a certain time.[/b] Save the walking for midweek and evening play.

If a round takes over 5 hours due to slow play of groups infront of you I think you should be granted a coupon for return visit if not a partial refund.
[/quote]

Why? Unless I'm in a group of slow players, my foursomes usually have no issues keeping up with groups who use carts ahead of us. I don't see why I should have to pay extra for a cart when I don't want to take one. [b]Mandatory carts are definitely not the solution for slow play.[/b]
[/quote]

Carts may not be the solution, but it definitely wouldn't hurt. I believe the game would be even slower if carts weren't used. I never see walkers in our area, it's just too hot. I can't imagine how slow some of the guys I've seen playing golf would play if they didn't have a cart to ride. Not to mention, many courses around here have a pretty good distance between a green and the next tee box. Sometimes a minute or two drive in a cart and likely a 5 minute walk. It's not your group of fast walkers that can hang with the cart group in front of you, it's the slow a** group that likes to chat like women after every shot while they walk 150 yards to their tee shot.
[/quote]

Oh no doubt, I can see the need for carts when there are long walks between holes or if the weather is too hot.
At the same time, I don't want to be forced to take a cart when one of those situations doesn't apply. If my group can keep up with the golfers riding ahead of us and the greens/tee boxes are relatively close, there's no need to spend the extra money for the cart. Chances are that the slow walkers / out of shape golfers will still take a cart, even if they aren't mandatory.
Also, my main concern are extra costs. If taking a cart is only 10$, I don't have any real issues with it. If I have to shell out 40 euros (like here in Italy), I'll gladly walk.

[Truman]

Most casual golfers are only playing a few times a month and pace of play is not important. They want to make a day of it. Unfortunately slow play has become a part of the game.

[ryancjordan]

Another California resident here. The guy who thought a 6 hour round gave you no right to complain is insane. The longer people pretend like 6 hours is fine, the more common this will become. I recently joined a private course because I was so sick of 5-6 hour rounds and sitting on the tee box waiting for old couples to hit the ball 6 times to get 100 yards and let me tell you, it is fantastic. Our Marshalls actually keep the pace of play fairly quick, the members themselves are quick when they play and I have finished in 3.5 hours a few times. Played by myself one morning and was first off and finished in 3 hours, walking. This is how golf should be played and until public courses start kicking hilariously obvious offenders off, it will only get worse. I simply will not tolerate having many hours of my time wasted because the people in front of me have no self awareness and the Marshalls are too scared/lazy to do anything about it. For what it's worth, one of the last public rounds I played this year was at Tilden and our 3 hour and 10 minute front 9 was just too much, I went and asked for a refund and they gave me a rain check. Fair enough, but I have no plans on using it if you refuse to address the specific problem that got us here in the first place...

[Imp]

If I'm going to play a course while on travel, I will ask if there are leagues playing there the day I want to play. If yes, I look elsewhere.

--kC

[twixster888]

[quote name='pssywgn' timestamp='1343673297' post='5378798']
Friend and I had a 10:30 tee time Saturday. From hole 2 and on, pace of play was at best described as "appalling".

We chose to drudge onward and eventually quit and drove in before waiting to tee off on #17. We would have been looking at a 6 hour round of 18.

In my mind, we were entitled to nothing in terms of a refund for having already played 16. Cool. But let's play hypotheticals here......

If we paid for 18, and wanted to quit after 9 due to appalling slow play, should we get a refund to the 9-hole price? What about a full refund after 4 or 6 holes?

The course had a snack cart driving around and a starter that all they did was put a checkmark on your receipt and check your arrive to the #1 tee. It was their choice to not have a ranger police pace of play.

This place was $55 to play. I've played $25 golf courses that use a ranger.

Yes, the golfers are the ones playing slowly, but the course chooses to enforce pace of play or not. I'd like to get feelings on this, because my time is worth something to me. And if it takes 3 hours to play the front, I want to feel like it is within my right to ask for a partial refund and go home after that.
[/quote]

you just don't return. some courses are just busy. supply and demand will take care of itself.