Newtown CT shooting

[H.A. Kerr]

[quote name='teeitlow' timestamp='1355534889' post='6070687']
So...It's a gun debate now??
[/quote]
No. It's a debate on exactly how lethal we're going to allow crazy people to be. The gunners always go "it could have been a knife". Well, in china, we've got a nutjob with a knife and look how ineffective he was without the ability to pump out hundreds of rounds before being stopped.

[Lupino]

[quote name='RookieBlue7' timestamp='1355535398' post='6070707']
[quote name='H.A. Kerr' timestamp='1355534320' post='6070645']
[quote name='MJP22' timestamp='1355516070' post='6069303']
Murders will murder people, if not with guns, some other device.
[/quote]

Yet not as quickly and efficiently as is such available to every man on the street. There's a reason our soldiers aren't equipped with knives and pipe bombs.

Imagine the body counts of our shooting sprees if high-capacity magazine weapons were not so easy to procure (legally, just like at Va Tech, Aurora and Conn.).

What bearing does the ability to rattle off dozens if not hundreds (over 100 in just a few minutes today!) of rounds have for any responsible, sane sport shooter, hunter or person interested in home protection?

These weapons have far surpassed the efficiency needed to do responsible things with them. They only now serve to make it that much more lethal when a deranged sicko decides to go off.
[/quote]

Considering that the shooter had 4 weapons (even though the original report was 2, a Glock and a Sig Sauer, both pistols) its not hard to rattle off 100 rounds quickly, especially if one has a 30 round clip in his Glock that's easily purchasable.

I'm waiting on someone to explain how those guns jumped out of his hands and shot people on their own. Not to mention how a 20 year old illegally obtained 2 pistols and an assault rifle, all of which one has to be 21 to legally purchase.

Fact is, an insane person obtained guns illegally and created a tragedy. Not one law would have prevented this. He broke a law when he obtained the guns.

If they couldn't wash him off the floor with a garden hose after all was said and done, not enough was done to him in the end. I'm sick and angry and sad all at the same time. But I'm not blaming the guns just like I don't blame forks for making people fat, tobacco for being the #1 non-natural cause of death in the US, and alcohol for DUI deaths. Idiots will exist in all walks of life, and so will law breakers and outlaws. Not one law in the world will do a thing about it. #1 weapon used in violent crimes in the US? Baseball bats. Lets ban them too. And while we're at it, lets ban the other 9 non-natural causes of death's contributors while we're banning the #10 one.
[/quote]





+1

[RookieBlue7]

[quote name='Hogan's Cardy' timestamp='1355534381' post='6070649']
[quote name='RookieBlue7' timestamp='1355533461' post='6070595']
For those trying to make this a gun control issue, I'd strongly urge you to read this: [url="http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf"]http://www.law.harva...auseronline.pdf[/url]

Educate yourself on the issue instead of being pushed into it by talking heads.
[/quote]

Ok so how does someone with no gun shoot another person?

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/401331_535773186434821_914520917_n.png
[/quote]

Read the link. You'll be surprised where your numbers on your cute little poster actually ranks the US when you're considering murders per weapon in the US. I'll give you a hint, its below every one on that cute little chart. Your cute picture also doesn't mention the 1.2 million crimes that were prevented by guns last year alone.

Banning guns isn't the answer. Preventing them from getting into the hands of idiots and criminals is the answer. This dude had a history of crazy behavior. His Twitter feed for the last 2 weeks have been filled with bizarre entries.

I feel sorry for the parents and families and those effected because of what was taken from them. I'm not going to blame the guns though, I'm blaming the idiot with the gun in his hand, because the gun doesn't go off without him pulling the trigger. He should've used it on himself only and been done with it.

[RookieBlue7]

[quote name='H.A. Kerr' timestamp='1355535568' post='6070721']
[quote name='teeitlow' timestamp='1355534889' post='6070687']
So...It's a gun debate now??
[/quote]
No. It's a debate on exactly how lethal we're going to allow crazy people to be. The gunners always go "it could have been a knife". Well, in china, we've got a nutjob with a knife and look how ineffective he was without the ability to pump out hundreds of rounds before being stopped.
[/quote]

How many thousand was killed on 9/11 with a box cutter? Right...

[H.A. Kerr]

[quote name='RookieBlue7' timestamp='1355535398' post='6070707']
Considering that the shooter had 4 weapons (even though the original report was 2, a Glock and a Sig Sauer, both pistols) its not hard to rattle off 100 rounds quickly, especially if one has a 30 round clip in his Glock that's easily purchasable.

I'm waiting on someone to explain how those guns jumped out of his hands and shot people on their own. Not to mention how a 20 year old illegally obtained 2 pistols and an assault rifle, all of which one has to be 21 to legally purchase.

Fact is, an insane person obtained guns illegally and created a tragedy. Not one law would have prevented this. He broke a law when he obtained the guns.

If they couldn't wash him off the floor with a garden hose after all was said and done, not enough was done to him in the end. I'm sick and angry and sad all at the same time. But I'm not blaming the guns just like I don't blame forks for making people fat, tobacco for being the #1 non-natural cause of death in the US, and alcohol for DUI deaths. Idiots will exist in all walks of life, and so will law breakers and outlaws. Not one law in the world will do a thing about it. #1 weapon used in violent crimes in the US? Baseball bats. Lets ban them too. And while we're at it, lets ban the other 9 non-natural causes of death's contributors while we're banning the #10 one.
[/quote]
Interesting you quoted me since you didn't address a single issue from it.

[Hogan's Cardy]

It's far from "cute" sir. However it's still fact and speaks for itself.

[ProBowler]

[quote name='vix02' timestamp='1355535510' post='6070713']
Prayers and Thoughts to Newtown and all the families.

I have my opinions but this is not the time or place for it. It's just purely wrong to shoot children ( or anyone for that matter ).....damn this one really hits home.
[/quote]

I so agree with you ........ Kids died ........ Leave the gun control out of this ........ Lets remember the parents who lost their little ones and have to live with that for the rest of their lives !!!!
Also remember all the responders that have deal with what the saw which will haunt them forever !!!
Just terrible !!!

[hebron1427]

STFU! if you politicize tragedy like this, you're a complete asshat, regardless of your views.

[RookieBlue7]

[quote name='Hogan's Cardy' timestamp='1355536048' post='6070757']
It's far from "cute" sir. However it's still fact and speaks for itself.
[/quote]

Like I said, read the study conducted by Harvard Law school and get back to me when you have a real grasp on what the actual numbers look like. The US has one of the lower murders per gun rate in the world. Deaths by guns? More are by suicide per year than by murder.

[Hogan's Cardy]

Living is easy with eyes closed.

I wish you all the best and am glad you have a President who may help solve this terrible problem.

[hogans71]

[quote name='Hogan's Cardy' timestamp='1355536727' post='6070823']
Living is easy with eyes closed.

I wish you all the best and am glad you have a President who may help solve this terrible problem.
[/quote]

?

[RookieBlue7]

[quote name='Hogan's Cardy' timestamp='1355536727' post='6070823']
Living is easy with eyes closed.

I wish you all the best and am glad you have a President who may help solve this terrible problem.
[/quote][quote name='Hogan's Cardy' timestamp='1355536727' post='6070823']
Living is easy with eyes closed.

I wish you all the best and am glad you have a President who may help solve this terrible problem.
[/quote]

Didn't vote for him either.

[StarFleetGolfer]

[quote name='ProBowler' timestamp='1355536184' post='6070775']
[quote name='vix02' timestamp='1355535510' post='6070713']
Prayers and Thoughts to Newtown and all the families.

I have my opinions but this is not the time or place for it. It's just purely wrong to shoot children ( or anyone for that matter ).....damn this one really hits home.
[/quote]

I so agree with you ........ Kids died ........ Leave the gun control out of this ........ Lets remember the parents who lost their little ones and have to live with that for the rest of their lives !!!!
Also remember all the responders that have deal with what the saw which will haunt them forever !!!
Just terrible !!!
[/quote]

+1 and the kids who witnessed this and it will haunt them forever.

[highergr0und]

I fought back tears today thinking about all the families that lost loved ones today. The one thing that I know though, and I hope others do, is that you should not make decisions while angry. I'll respect the families and refrain from getting into debates on mental illness or gun control

[bobfoster]

I saw Bloomberg talk today. Said it is time to end the rhetroic and DO something.

"Calling for 'meaningful action' is not enough," he said in a statement. "We need immediate action. We have heard all the rhetoric before."

Yes, we've heard all the rhetoric before. And I see he is calling for "immediate action". I'm sorry, but isn't THAT just rhetoric? What, exactly, IS the meaningful action you'd like to take Mr. Mayor? (Seriously, is it not bizarre that a politician got up and made a speech calling for action while he, um, condemned politicians for making speeches calling for action?)

It is VERY easy to fall on one side or the other ... NRA, or Gun Control fanatic. Truth is, neither have anything remotely resembling a solution. Making certain that even more people are armed may be deterrent to petty house thieves, but it is NOT a deterrent to crazies. By the same token, passing stricter and stricter gun laws may make people FEEL better, but does not rationally do much (CT already had some of the strictest guns laws in the US ... serious background checks, waiting periods ... assault weapons already banned). In fact, probably the most horrendous slaughter in recent history was in Norway - that has some of the strictest gun control laws on earth.

I do not know what the answer is, but I am convinced that neither the left nor right does either. It is not just about weapons, it is about some huge changes that have gone in our culture in the past couple of decades.

Until we get WAY beyond the surface idiocy of black/white, either/or (i.e., arm more people vs. take all the guns away) ... we will not even begin the address the actual problem.

Just my $0.02 ...

[H.A. Kerr]

[quote name='RookieBlue7' timestamp='1355535815' post='6070737']
How many thousand was killed on 9/11 with a box cutter? Right...
[/quote]

And would you have been just fine with the airlines not doing a single thing differently after that?

Because that's what we're doing here. The Va Techs pile on top of the Auroras and Clackamas' the Sandy Hooks and a shocking portion of the population think the status quo is acceptable and will not even begin to consider some ways we could lessen the tragedy of these events without leaping all the way to "They taking all our guns!"

Or maybe we should have just really "upped" our mental health programs for insane fundamentalist Muslims and not worried about the hassle of reinforcing the cockpit doors.

[teespoon]

Bet his computer in house was full of violent video games to feed his mental state! Does Net promote acts of violence?

teespoon

[cdnglf]

[quote name='RookieBlue7' timestamp='1355536301' post='6070787']
[quote name='Hogan's Cardy' timestamp='1355536048' post='6070757']
It's far from "cute" sir. However it's still fact and speaks for itself.
[/quote]

Like I said, read the study conducted by Harvard Law school and get back to me when you have a real grasp on what the actual numbers look like. The US has one of the lower murders per gun rate in the world. Deaths by guns? More are by suicide per year than by murder.
[/quote]

This is not a "study conducted by Harvard Law School". It is a paper published in the [size=4]Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy, a publication self-described as "one of the most widely circulated [b]student-edited[/b] law reviews and the nation’s leading forum for conservative and libertarian legal scholarship". The authors are not Harvard professors. The first author was (at the time) associated with something called "Pacific Research Institute"; [/size][size=4]the other is a professor at Simon Fraser University.[/size]

Amid the leaps of logic, statistical cherry-picking and general lack of rigour, there is at least one significant error. The article makes repeated references to Luxembourg's zero gun policy but very high murder rate of 9.01/100,000 (the other western European countries listed range from 0.8 to 1.98). As it turns out, the true value is 0.9 - the authors copied the value from another source that made a mistake and didn't bother to double-check. I don't research this stuff for a living, but the value immediately stood out to me as a head-scratcher - as I think it would for many people. How did these guys miss it? And what does that say about the veracity of the rest of the article?

[highergr0und]

Isn't a large part of the problem the media? It's about the media sensationalizing, memorializing, and obsessing over the shooter. It's the need to draw a story out and squeeze every little detail out of it. It's about getting everyone to talk about a loner. They spend all this time saying "Why, Why, Why" when they're actually making the problem worse. The "why" seems to always be the same. What drives this obsession? Ratings. People eat it up.

You know why sports don't have much of an issue with streakers any more? It's because all the broadcasters banded together and decided never to show them on TV. Take away their publicity and they don't do it. Admittedly this is a much smaller scale than mass murder, but it works. If the media could live for 5 minutes to not try to identify and apply their talk show psychology to a situation, they might figure out that by keeping it anonymous the problem becomes less. There are no "heroes" for these kids to worship, no ideas to copy, nobody to "identify" with. There wouldn't be the thought of being a hero post rampage.

Agendas in media are as bad as politics. The media wants the fallout of gun control. They want the picture of a crowd of pro gun guys marching on Washington. Heck, they want someone to commit a terrible act.

Now aside from media, I could go on and on about the mental health system, where people are trained to know warning signs yet also trained to basically ignore them and be all touchy feely, or how people don't take action when they know someone has issues. Or maybe I could talk about gun control and how we'd have to be brought into an oppressed state in order to have a measurable impact. Or I could talk about cultural views and problems that lead people to have no value for life. But I won't because I don't want this post to go on for pages.

There is a solution, but it's a mixed bag of a lot of things and would involve a level of change most people might not be ready for. Gun control, another basically worthless brady type bill is just a feel good approach where people would pat themselves on the back for a job well done and wander off into the night..... and not notice that the problem will continue to get worse until the actual underlying issues are addressed.

[MtlJeff]

I blame our media and social media more then i blame guns. Guns probably do make it easier to kill a lot of people if someone were so inclined, but it's not like kids can't learn how to make pipe bombs or the like. Not that i want to associate anything to Michael Moore really but remember in Bowling for Columbine when the kid said he and his friends were making Napalm? I mean if there's anything we're really good at it's figuring out ways to hurt each other and that would happen even without guns.

But we're fascinated with death, and we make the gunmen stars. You still see specials on Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris. And you know what? I didn't even have to look those names up on google. I remember them both. Ask me how many of the victims names i remember, or if i remember how many victims there were. The answer is no i don't. But i remember the gunmen because they've been talked about many many times on many different programs. "who's to blame" "Dylan and Eric's Backrounds" "why did they target these people" blah blah blah....they got exactly what they wanted and so will this guy. The world he hated will finally notice and analyze him, blame his parents and those and around him.

Just last week the NY Post ran a cover story of a guy about to die, and Women wore Jovan Belcher's jersey to a KC home game as a show of a support (to a domestic abuser and murderer of his girlfriend).

We glamorize tragedy, which is why people do this

[FairwaysToHeaven]

[quote name='paulshack' timestamp='1355512049' post='6068939']
when are u guys gonna do somethin bout guns?
[/quote]

how about we address the society that is creating these monsters instead of blaming the gun.

i agree, getting guns is too easy, but to just say outlaw them is pretty ridiculous. need to focus on why people are doing this. guns have been around forever. wouldn't hurt to require not only background check, but longer waiting period and psychiciatric eval when purchasing assault rifle. only blaming the gun is ignoring the real problem.

How many people blame the dynamite when a suicide bomber attacks in Iraq.

The media is disgusting. yesterday they interviewed a crying child about what happened and what she saw. that is disgusting. they glamorize these killings in the eyes of sick criminals and will do anything for ratings.

[FairwaysToHeaven]

[quote name='PZero' timestamp='1355513462' post='6069057']
[quote name='Mschumacher' timestamp='1355513105' post='6069033']
WTF

Not sure if people getting worse or because the news travels faster/further
[/quote]

It seems like it is getting worse. There was another shooting at a mall last week. It seems like every month something like this is happening.

[b]I really wish the media would stop disclosing the shooters name and putting their picture every where. That's exactly what these psychopaths want.[/b]
[/quote]


This 100% agree!

[FairwaysToHeaven]

[quote name='hebron1427' timestamp='1355515902' post='6069285']
[quote name='Hogan's Cardy' timestamp='1355515746' post='6069265']
[quote name='hebron1427' timestamp='1355514720' post='6069185']
don't make this a guns debate. this has nothing to do with legality of guns. the same thing happened in europe with a deranged gunman.

when the dust settles, it will either be a person of mental illness, a disgruntled employee, a former father who was shut out, or several of those three.

no matter, it is a tragic situation. my prayers go out to everyone affected by this.
[/quote]

In Europe it's rare compared to the US for one very good reason. The abuse of that amendment is obscene and I wonder how many more days like this it will take before action is taken. I fear it may be far too many.

It's not disrespectful to mention this given what's happened, nobody is using it as a vehicle to press an agenda but people need to see why this happens and what can be done to stop it from happening again.
[/quote]

your air of superiority is offensive and disrespectful. this is not an agenda item. this is a tragedy.
[/quote]

everybody complains about turning this into an agenda. all they want to do is talk about hugging your children and praying for the victims. i'd say its about d time we start having the discussion about whats causing this to happen and having discussions about what can be done. enough with the discuss this at a later time. these discussions need to happen now. politicizing this to take a shot at the NRA or pro gun groups does nothing but thats all politicians want to do.

[RIRider]

There are a few people on here saying this is not the time for a debate about gun control, and they're absolutely right. It's too late.

[FairwaysToHeaven]

[quote name='RookieBlue7' timestamp='1355526313' post='6070115']
It's sickening that its being used as a vehicle for any type of political statement regarding gun control, etc, especially with so many uninformed persons out there.

As a parent, I came home from work and hugged my children a little tighter and I hugged my wife and thanked the big man above for allowing that to happen on a tragic and sad day.

Lets not turn this into a political statement. Lets respect the victims, families of the victims, and the children that had any innocence left ripped away from them. [b]This isn't the time, nor the place for anything except that, I don't care what your thoughts on gun control are.[/b]
[/quote]

When exactly is the time to start talking about taking actions to prevent this in the future whether is mental evaluations when purchasing guns or any other method to prevent this. everyone wants to talk about hugging their kids but no one wants to talk about the problem. exactly when is the time to have this discussion....1 week, 3weeks, couple omnths down the road. i say america needs to have the d discussion now!

[StarFleetGolfer]

A real hero


https://fbcdn-photos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/s720x720/12103_178540435624355_595983411_n.png?dl=1

[highergr0und]

[quote name='Golfjunki71' timestamp='1355592034' post='6073037']
A real hero


[url="https://fbcdn-photos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/s720x720/12103_178540435624355_595983411_n.png?dl=1"]https://fbcdn-photos...3411_n.png?dl=1[/url]
[/quote]

Yep and the media doesn't care as it's running quotes of people saying the shooter was a nice guy and very smart. WTF is wrong with these people?

[H.A. Kerr]

[quote name='HoosierMizuno' timestamp='1355587910' post='6072811']
When exactly is the time to start talking about taking actions to prevent this in the future whether is mental evaluations when purchasing guns or any other method to prevent this. ...
[/quote]

Exactly. I wasn't even finished pausing and hugging my kids and sending out good thoughts to the victims of the Clackamas shooting that shocked our community this week when it happened again, and much worse.

It's time to do address the issue. And when people say "address the issue" or "time to do something" I wish the status quo'ers would hear more subtlety than "take away all the guns".

There has to be things we can do to help/limit/stem the damage that everyone can agree on. It's not a choice of NO GUNS! or MOAR GUNS!

[ej002]

If there was a way to get rid of every single gun in the US and to prevent them from being smuggled, I would be for it (and I am pro gun). The problem is that the wrong people already have guns. That is why they are immediately available to other wrong people. I live in Chicago and before the recent supreme court change ruling against, we had the strictest gun law in the country, but guess what? Our murder rate was the highest. Those are facts. My point is that "gun control" prevents honest people from protecting themselves moreso than it prevents a tragety.

[H.A. Kerr]

ej002,
I don't think anyone can try to pretend that the Bad Guys will always find ways to be armed. That's obvious. But if the only possible reaction to that is to make equally as lethal arms available to everyone, you get what we're dealing with today. The status quo. A race to the bottom. Readily available high-capacity weapons to nearly anyone who goes off the deep end. These are not calculating masterminds who have to comb the black market for a weapon. They're scared cowards who only have to look as far as their mom or neighbor to take it from.

If I were to have a gun in my home today (which I won't as it's be shown to correlate to a nearly threefold increase in the odds of someone in my home dying from homicide) I don't understand why I need the right to have some 30 round lead machine. A shotgun or handgun with a reasonable clip should do the job in proficient hands.

To go to the far extreme, can anyone argue that we'd wouldn't have fewer tragic events if the only weapons available were flintlock rifles? Then to bring it back toward reality, isn't there somewhere ... some middle ground ... where we could attempt to limit the efficiency of killing when someone goes off their rocker?

Hunters aren't legally allowed more than a handful of rounds, but hunting is still fun (pheasant fan, myself). Home intruders rarely work in packs of 30. For the real-life situations that many people and sportsmen safely enjoy guns, I can't imagine the a strict cap on high-capacity weapons/clips would be much of a hindrance. And yes ... the cartel will always have big bad clips. But what are the real odds of having to have an OK Corral shootout with the cartel vs the real numbers of innocent people being caught in these high volume attacks (Va Tech, Aurora, Sandy Hook, etc.

I have no idea if this would work. It's just something that seems to me to be a start. Limit the damage of crazy nuts, and barely hinder the responsible folk.

I doubt it's that easy, and that makes me sad. But it's "something". And "nothing" is continuing to shock and sadden and anger us all with a frightening increase in frequency. As a dad of two grade school kids, I hope I never have to experience another week like this past one that ripped my guts out (Clackamas is a handful of miles from me). But I'm sure I will fairly soon.