Chamblee/Tiger Woods controversy (merged)

[nbg352]

[quote name='square' timestamp='1382655247' post='8053519']
I was the biggest Tiger fan you ever saw, since his junior golf days. But TPC ended it for me.
I expect others who respect the game, and the Rules of Golf, feel the same way.


[/quote]
No. People who respect the game and the rules of golf have let this one go and have moved on. Because the right decision was reached, by the right people. The ones who were directly involved.

[nbg352]

[quote name='Pat_Irish' timestamp='1382655113' post='8053499']
[quote name='HAWKEYE77' timestamp='1382654934' post='8053485']
[quote name='Pat_Irish' timestamp='1382654658' post='8053463']
[quote name='xabia' timestamp='1382654369' post='8053431']
I should add I can't believe the world wont let a legal drop as defined by rules of golf go and keep mentioning it as if were actually an infraction!!!!

It keeps getting brought up and analyzed even after it has been deemed perfectly legal.. literally there is no other athlete or figure in the world other than TW who would have to deal with such a ridiculous situation.
[/quote]

[/quote]

Of course, you don't get it.

Oh and,

SAUSAGE! Just the mention seems to energize some threads.
[/quote]
actually i assume he is joking
[/quote]
Nice try, pat.

[Pat_Irish]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1382655656' post='8053547']


This is why I post.

I am quite critical of Woods, when the situation calls for it...and I've made it abundantly clear that he should consider himself lucky that I wasn't his brother-in-law.

What I have a problem with---in threads like this---are double-standards and Trojan Horses. Ways in which OTHER forms of socially-unacceptable animosity try to clothe themselves in a more socially acceptable guise.

[i][b]I don't consider you in either one of those categories...but I do think you are rushing to judgement based on some very flimsy evidence against the Masters Rules Committee.[/b][/i] All we know for sure is that they scr*w*d-the-pooch on this one, and they waived the DQ because they believe that their mishandling of the situation created a situation where the waving of the DQ was necessary for equity. Since the RC has an obligation to inform or discuss with the player potential rules violations. (An obligation you've made clear you do not agree with, but is still common practice on tour.)
[/quote]

Firstly, what people do in their private life is there own business, Boys will be boys as they say and what goes on on tour stays on tour, The Media in the past never reported anything personel, They had ascess to the players, so in noway would they report something that was behind closed doors, One very famous European it seems was in a class of his own when it came to women . Tiger was outed , maybe because of his general behavour to all and sundry, From my own point of view I could not care less. that said I will argue about the rules of golf, and how they are upheld . If you break the rules and sign the card, the penalty is DSQ, you are responsible and you cant shift the blame , Many players accept this and have "walked away" Its an example that can/is/should be held up to the kids starting the game. Agreed some of the penaltys are severe, but that is the rules. you cant be a little bit out of bounds , and who,s bed you slept in last night is of no bearing on the matter of the game of golf.

[hogans71]

[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1382655789' post='8053561']
[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1382654278' post='8053405']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1382652255' post='8053221']
[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1382559837' post='8047449']
This should be fun...
[/quote]

Only if you want to learn something.

Otherwise, it's going to be pretty dry and dull.
[/quote]

Oh kg, always there to spoil the good times...

Two words- LIGHTEN UP.
[/quote]
You guys are like two female cats, strangers to each other, thrown into a room together for the very first time.
It's very entertaining, yet scary.
( I know, I know.....I've had a moment or 10 on here, too....)
[/quote]

All in good fun...

You know that though...

[kellygreen]

[quote name='Pat_Irish' timestamp='1382656849' post='8053647']

Firstly, what people do in there private life is there own business, Boys will be boys as they say and what goes on on tour stays on tour, The Media in the past never reported anything personel, They had ascess to the players, so in noway would they report something that was behind closed doors, One very famous European it seems was in a class of his own when it came to women . Tiger was outed , maybe because of his general behavour to all and sundry, From my own point of view I could not care less. that said I will argue about the rules of golf, and how they are upheld . If you break the rules and sign the card, the penalty is DSQ, you are responsible and you cant shift the blame , Many players accept this and have "walked away" Its an example that can/is/should be held up to the kids starting the game. Agreed some of the penaltys are severe, but that is the rules. you cant be a little bit out of bounds , and who,s bed you slept in last night is of no bearing on the matter of the game of golf.
[/quote]

Disagree.

Because you can demand the same "unwritten" rule of anyone who committs an infraction that they failed to call on themselves because they WOULD have signed an incorrect card. At what point does that end?

Bottomline, the rules also allow for what the Masters RC did, and the USGA agreed that it was an appropriate use of the rule for waiving disqualifications.

You may feel differently. But then you're going to be in a battle with both the Masters and the USGA.

[Hawkeye77]

[quote name='square' timestamp='1382655582' post='8053541']
Gary Player was a well known cheater. Tom Watson once busted him for dropping a ball in the rough at the British Open.
[/quote]

There's a nice fabrication.

[nbg352]

[quote name='Pat_Irish' timestamp='1382656849' post='8053647']


Firstly, what people do in their private life is there own business, Boys will be boys as they say and what goes on on tour stays on tour, The Media in the past never reported anything personel, They had ascess to the players, so in noway would they report something that was behind closed doors, One very famous European it seems was in a class of his own when it came to women . Tiger was outed , maybe because of his general behavour to all and sundry, From my own point of view I could not care less. that said I will argue about the rules of golf, and how they are upheld . If you break the rules and sign the card, the penalty is DSQ, you are responsible and you cant shift the blame , Many players accept this and have "walked away" Its an example that can/is/should be held up to the kids starting the game. Agreed some of the penaltys are severe, but that is the rules. you cant be a little bit out of bounds , and who,s bed you slept in last night is of no bearing on the matter of the game of golf.
[/quote]
It is indeed fortunate for professiona golf that the rules are interpreted by experts on the rules of golf. Not by those whose expertise does not extend beyond the living room couch.

[Pat_Irish]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1382655766' post='8053555']


...and Els got a very generous drop in his 1994 US Open win.

Yet, no one's talking about that one years later....
[/quote]

Els got a drop at the Masters. when he was so far in the woods, only a logger could have got in with a chainsaw, thaat was when I lost just a little respect for him and was delighted he didnt win ( he was leading at the time if my memory serves me right )

[nbg352]

[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1382656994' post='8053655']
[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1382655789' post='8053561']
[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1382654278' post='8053405']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1382652255' post='8053221']
[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1382559837' post='8047449']
This should be fun...
[/quote]

Only if you want to learn something.

Otherwise, it's going to be pretty dry and dull.
[/quote]

Oh kg, always there to spoil the good times...

Two words- LIGHTEN UP.
[/quote]
You guys are like two female cats, strangers to each other, thrown into a room together for the very first time.
It's very entertaining, yet scary.
( I know, I know.....I've had a moment or 10 on here, too....)
[/quote]

All in good fun...

You know that though...
[/quote]
Yep.
Meowr, PHffft phffftt!

[square]

I promise you, no one who respects the game of golf, and it's Rules, is giving Tiger a pass for TPC. He now joins Arnold Palmer, Gary Player, Vijay Singh, and Stewart Cink in the Pro Golf Hall of Shame.
For having the courage to tell the truth I expect Chamblee has been receiving dozens of phone calls from current and former PGA Tour players.

[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1382656068' post='8053591']

No. People who respect the game and the rules of golf have let this one go and have moved on. Because the right decision was reached, by the right people. The ones who were directly involved.
[/quote]

[hogans71]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1382655920' post='8053573']


Relax.

The animosity only goes one way.

I just push his buttons now for the entertainment value.
[/quote]

You're over inflated sense of self worth aside, I can assure you the last thing you are doing is pushing my buttons...

And although we're all acutely aware of what YOU do for a living(as it's mentioned in every thread you enter), I'll spare you the detail in what my vocation is and just suggest if folks like you got to me... well, I wouldn't have lasted nearly twenty years doing it...

But please, carry on.

[nbg352]

[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1382657442' post='8053713']


You're over inflated sense of self worth aside, I can assure you the last thing you are doing is pushing my buttons...

And although we're all acutely aware of what YOU do for a living(as it's mentioned in every thread you enter), I'll spare you the detail in what my vocation is and just suggest if folks like you got to me... well, I wouldn't have lasted nearly twenty years doing it...

But please, carry on.
[/quote]
I'd like to know.....

[Pat_Irish]

Disagree.

Because you can demand the same "unwritten" rule of anyone who committs an infraction that they failed to call on themselves because they WOULD have signed an incorrect card. At what point does that end?

Bottomline, the rules also allow for what the Masters RC did, and the USGA agreed that it was an appropriate use of the rule for waiving disqualifications.

You may feel differently. But then you're going to be in a battle with both the Masters and the usga

Kelly
It was the appropiate rule for waiving the dsq. it was not applicable to use it. 33.7 to the best of my knowledge was put there to cover a rules official giving a wrong ruling . The addition was the HD ( or Harrington ) rule

taking your point a step more, it should be impossible to get DSQ for not signing your card as there is a scorer in the "hut" who should check your card when you present it to him as an accurate record of your score, so if its not signed he should bring it to your attention and if he does'nt it is his/her fault ??? I don't think so

[Ty_Webb]

[quote name='Pat_Irish' timestamp='1382657256' post='8053689']
Els got a drop at the Masters. when he was so far in the woods, only a logger could have got in with a chainsaw, thaat was when I lost just a little respect for him and was delighted he didnt win ( he was leading at the time if my memory serves me right )
[/quote]

He did. It was on the 11th hole in I think 2004 when Phil won his first. He hit it deep in the woods and was in amongst some old branches. He claimed that it was piled for removal (I can just imagine the Augusta green staff saying "oh yeah, we'll move that next week once the Masters is over"). The first two rules officials disagreed and he was en route to making a BIG number. The third one agreed with him and gave him the drop (ridiculous IMO). I too am glad that Phil won that one.

[Ty_Webb]

[quote name='square' timestamp='1382657357' post='8053701']
I promise you, no one who respects the game of golf, and it's Rules, is giving Tiger a pass for TPC. He now joins Arnold Palmer, Gary Player, Vijay Singh, and Stewart Cink in the Pro Golf Hall of Shame.
For having the courage to tell the truth I expect Chamblee has been receiving dozens of phone calls from current and former PGA Tour players.
[/quote]

I respect the game and its rules very much and I'm giving Tiger a pass for TPC because he did nothing wrong. Show me a single comment from anyone at the USGA stating that Tiger cheated at TPC. I seriously doubt if you can, which means that either everyone at the USGA would rather hide this under the rug than stand up for the rules of the game (which I just lost - dammit), or you're wrong. I know where my money is.

[Playaway]

[quote name='HeadonaStick' timestamp='1382559997' post='8047459']


Hard to say since he never had television scrutinizing his every move.... in addition, it seems to me we are tossing around the word "cheating" a little too freely. There is a big difference between misinterpreting the rules and outright choosing to break them to gain an advantage - I have yet to see anything that clearly shows where Tiger crossed the line.
[/quote]

Then you missed this:

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dou8GRzVk7o[/media]

[square]

Piles for removal is piles for removal. Does not matter if the pile is on the schedule for removal next day or next year. And if a player receives a Ruling from an official, no matter what , it is not cheating. At Oakmont USGA official trey Holland gave Els an improper line-of-play Ruling (immovable obstruction t,v. tower was in fact on wheels, and movable). Since it was an official ruling, Els did not cheat.

[quote name='Ty_Webb' timestamp='1382658651' post='8053823']


He did. It was on the 11th hole in I think 2004 when Phil won his first. He hit it deep in the woods and was in amongst some old branches. He claimed that it was piled for removal (I can just imagine the Augusta green staff saying "oh yeah, we'll move that next week once the Masters is over"). The first two rules officials disagreed and he was en route to making a BIG number. The third one agreed with him and gave him the drop (ridiculous IMO). I too am glad that Phil won that one.
[/quote]

[Sean2]

I'm glad to see everything has been resolved.

[square]

TPC is not a USGA event.

[quote name='Ty_Webb' timestamp='1382658876' post='8053855']

I respect the game and its rules very much and I'm giving Tiger a pass for TPC because he did nothing wrong. Show me a single comment from anyone at the USGA stating that Tiger cheated at TPC. I seriously doubt if you can, which means that either everyone at the USGA would rather hide this under the rug than stand up for the rules of the game (which I just lost - dammit), or you're wrong. I know where my money is.
[/quote]

[kellygreen]

[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1382657442' post='8053713']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1382655920' post='8053573']
[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1382655789' post='8053561']
[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1382654278' post='8053405']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1382652255' post='8053221']
[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1382559837' post='8047449']
This should be fun...
[/quote]

Only if you want to learn something.

Otherwise, it's going to be pretty dry and dull.
[/quote]

Oh kg, always there to spoil the good times...

Two words- LIGHTEN UP.
[/quote]
You guys are like two female cats, strangers to each other, thrown into a room together for the very first time.
It's very entertaining, yet scary.
( I know, I know.....I've had a moment or 10 on here, too....)
[/quote]

Relax.

The animosity only goes one way.

I just push his buttons now for the entertainment value.
[/quote]

You're over inflated sense of self worth aside, I can assure you the last thing you are doing is pushing my buttons...

And although we're all acutely aware of what YOU do for a living(as it's mentioned in every thread you enter), I'll spare you the detail in what my vocation is and just suggest if folks like you got to me... well, I wouldn't have lasted nearly twenty years doing it...

But please, carry on.
[/quote]

Yeah.

I don't push your buttons... [i]at all[/i].

Not at all.

[Golfrnut]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1382659054' post='8053875']
I'm glad to see everything has been resolved.
[/quote]

I consider myself for one of the ones responsible for the "Tiger drop at the Masters" thread going fourty some pages, but I'm glad I took myself out of this one.

[nbg352]

Yep, rules officials get it wrong sometimes. And sometimes a player benefits.
Yep, rules officials get it wrong sometimes. And sometimes a player suffers.
That's called rub of the green. To call it anything else demonstrates a lack of understanding of the rules of golf,
Whoever said Els cheated is incorrect. He was just lucky.
I don't think that anyone should be allowed to bring up any incidents from the past and tout them as examples of cheating, unless those incidents have gone into the annals of history as PROVEN cases of KNOWN cheating.
Everything else is, at best, badly construed conjecture.

[Sean2]

[quote name='Golfrnut' timestamp='1382659349' post='8053889']


I consider myself for one of the ones responsible for the "Tiger drop at the Masters" thread going fourty some pages, but I'm glad I took myself out of this one.
[/quote]

I just checked back in to see what was going on. Nothing will get resolved. No minds will get changed. Just a waste of a lot of bits and bytes. :-)

[kellygreen]

[quote name='Pat_Irish' timestamp='1382658067' post='8053775']
Disagree.

Because you can demand the same "unwritten" rule of anyone who committs an infraction that they failed to call on themselves because they WOULD have signed an incorrect card. At what point does that end?

Bottomline, the rules also allow for what the Masters RC did, and the USGA agreed that it was an appropriate use of the rule for waiving disqualifications.

You may feel differently. But then you're going to be in a battle with both the Masters and the usga

Kelly
It was the appropiate rule for waiving the dsq. it was not applicable to use it. 33.7 to the best of my knowledge was put there to cover a rules official giving a wrong ruling . The addition was the HD ( or Harrington ) rule

taking your point a step more, it should be impossible to get DSQ for not signing your card as there is a scorer in the "hut" who should check your card when you present it to him as an accurate record of your score, so if its not signed he should bring it to your attention and if he does'nt it is his/her fault ??? I don't think so
[/quote]

On your first point, the USGA disagrees. Sorry, but I'm going to go with their interpretation of whether the rule was used appropriately.

On your second, point--again, disagree. The only thing that saved Tiger from getting DQ'd was that the RC (unless you are going to insist that someone is lying...and that's a WHOLE OTHER issue) was informed of a problem with the drop while the player was still on the course. The USGA--at that point---believes that the RC has an obligation to inform the player of any violation that has been called to their attention BEFORE the scorecard is signed. To prevent an unnecessary DQ.

That is why it is standard practice in professional golf---in that situation----for the player to be called to the video van from the final green. The tape reviewed, and penalties assessed as needed. [i][b]The Masters RC failed to adhere to this very BASIC, standard practice[/b][/i].

That failure to adhere to this practice is what led to them waving the DQ for the incorrect scorecard.

If it weren't for that....Tiger would have been packing his bags for the return trip to Florida.

I don't have a problem with that. What I fail to grasp, is why you seem to have such a major issue here.

The scorecard is the player's responsibility UNTIL a potential rules violation is brought to the attention of the RC...at that point (until the player is informed of the problem) it becomes a JOINT repsonsibility. [i][b]So that rules officials cannot influence the outcome of the competition by choosing to tell some players of violations, and choosing not to tell others so that they go on to sign an incorrect card and get DQ'd. [/b][/i]

[golfer]

[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1382657442' post='8053713']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1382655920' post='8053573']
[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1382655789' post='8053561']
[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1382654278' post='8053405']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1382652255' post='8053221']
[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1382559837' post='8047449']
This should be fun...
[/quote]

Only if you want to learn something.

Otherwise, it's going to be pretty dry and dull.
[/quote]

Oh kg, always there to spoil the good times...

Two words- LIGHTEN UP.
[/quote]
You guys are like two female cats, strangers to each other, thrown into a room together for the very first time.
It's very entertaining, yet scary.
( I know, I know.....I've had a moment or 10 on here, too....)
[/quote]

Relax.

The animosity only goes one way.

I just push his buttons now for the entertainment value.
[/quote]

[b]You're [/b]over inflated sense of self worth aside
[/quote]

To whom are you referring?

[nbg352]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1382659531' post='8053919']
[quote name='Golfrnut' timestamp='1382659349' post='8053889']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1382659054' post='8053875']
I'm glad to see everything has been resolved.
[/quote]

I consider myself for one of the ones responsible for the "Tiger drop at the Masters" thread going fourty some pages, but I'm glad I took myself out of this one.
[/quote]

I just checked back in to see what was going on. Nothing will get resolved. No minds will get changed. Just a waste of a lot of bits and bytes. :-)
[/quote]
Hmmppph....you act as if they were YOUR bits and bytes.....

[Sean2]

^^^^Good point! Carry on...

[hogans71]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1382659287' post='8053887']

Yeah.

I don't push your buttons... [i]at all[/i].

Not at all.
[/quote]

Oh you and your witty repartee...

Wild swing and a miss though. Thought I'd throw in a bit of baseball related humor as we all know about your success on the diamond as well...

I'm going to assume this will be the end of our jovial give and take as you NEVER yearn to get the last word in.

Never...

[hogans71]

[quote name='golfer' timestamp='1382660392' post='8053999']

To whom are you referring?
[/quote]

Do I know you?

Yeah, didn't think so.

Let's leave it that way...

[golfer]

[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1382660967' post='8054055']
[quote name='golfer' timestamp='1382660392' post='8053999']
To whom are you referring?
[/quote]

Do I know you?

Yeah, didn't think so.

Let's leave it that way...
[/quote]

No, you do not know me, so your assumption pertaining to not knowing me is correct.

However, based on your use of the word "You're", it is obvious that not knowing me isn't the only thing you don't know.

No need to thank me. You're welcome!