What's with the Short par 5's and long par 4's?

Today I played a course that had a 469 yard par 4, and a 437 yard par 5

Tell me how that makes any sense

Was there any differences in the holes or nuances in the holes?

Only thing I can think of. IE Dog legs or lots of bunkers or water surrounding or trees covering the fairway etc

We're supposed to give an answer based on yardages alone? 437 sounds short for a par 5 but is it all uphill? Extremely tight? Difficult green complex? Lots of things can influence par Beyond mere distance

You can't really take anything away from that based on the yardages.

variety. Long par 4's and short 5's are my favorite holes. I love the challenge of a long 4. You have to hit two good shots to get on the green. SHort par 5's usually require a shot over a tree line or over a hazard which is also always fun.

However some of these long par 3's are getting ridiculous. 270 yards for a par 3 guarded by water and bunkers is stupid.

[quote name='ghoul31' timestamp='1431917663' post='11576632']
Today I played a course that had a 469 yard par 4, and a 437 yard par 5

Tell me how that makes any sense
[/quote]

What's the course?

Were you forced to lay up on the par 5?

Flipping the pars make the most sense based on the numbers (stating the obvious I know) If the 469 was all downhill then I could see that being a good par 4 but anything other than that, that's a PGA style par 4.

[quote name='DTXgolfer12' timestamp='1431962211' post='11578804']

[b]However some of these long par 3's are getting ridiculous. 270 yards for a par 3 guarded by water and bunkers is stupid.[/b]
[/quote]

This. This is what drives me insane. There is one par 3 I remember in San Diego, at Carmel Mountain Ranch. Now, according to the scorecard, the Par 3 is around 210 as the crow flies. But this is pretty much sea level....and the green is uphill, so it plays probably close to 250+ You should never have to take a 3 wood or driver to a Par 3. Ever.

Here in Hawaii, there are many short 4s and long 5s. Based on how the trade winds are blowing, the 5s may feel like 6s, and some of the 4s like 3s. Makes it tough when you are carrying three clubs more to get to the front, but so sweet when you drive a green thats well out of your normal reach. I figure the guy who designed the course knows what he was doing.

This is GolfWRX. 469 is just a strong par 3.

[quote name='Shipwreck' timestamp='1432005624' post='11583682']
[quote name='DTXgolfer12' timestamp='1431962211' post='11578804']
[b]However some of these long par 3's are getting ridiculous. 270 yards for a par 3 guarded by water and bunkers is stupid.[/b]
[/quote]

This. This is what drives me insane. There is one par 3 I remember in San Diego, at Carmel Mountain Ranch. Now, according to the scorecard, the Par 3 is around 210 as the crow flies. But this is pretty much sea level....and the green is uphill, so it plays probably close to 250+ You should never have to take a 3 wood or driver to a Par 3. Ever.
[/quote]

Yep and it's becoming more and more common. I mean supposedly the "average weekend golfer" hits a driver 220 yards. Well from the whites that's how far that hole is. What chance does a 15 handicap have of hitting a green with a driver? 1 in 20?

Just add 'em all up at the end and compare it to the par
of the course.

[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1432006260' post='11583754']
This is GolfWRX. 469 is just a strong par 3.
[/quote]

This reminded me of playing @ Ko'Olina the other day... 237yard par3 into the wind.... I had to use driver.... Only way i could remotely reach the green.......while that might be a 7 iron for most here...... 237 yard PAR3 WTF!!!!!!!!

Quail Hollow 9th hole was a 500 yard par 4. Rory hit driver 9 iron so I guess it doesn't play that yardage?

[quote name='DTXgolfer12' timestamp='1432051116' post='11586210']
[quote name='Shipwreck' timestamp='1432005624' post='11583682']
[quote name='DTXgolfer12' timestamp='1431962211' post='11578804']
[b]However some of these long par 3's are getting ridiculous. 270 yards for a par 3 guarded by water and bunkers is stupid.[/b]
[/quote]

This. This is what drives me insane. There is one par 3 I remember in San Diego, at Carmel Mountain Ranch. Now, according to the scorecard, the Par 3 is around 210 as the crow flies. But this is pretty much sea level....and the green is uphill, so it plays probably close to 250+ You should never have to take a 3 wood or driver to a Par 3. Ever.
[/quote]

Yep and it's becoming more and more common. I mean supposedly the "average weekend golfer" hits a driver 220 yards. Well from the whites that's how far that hole is. What chance does a 15 handicap have of hitting a green with a driver? 1 in 20?
[/quote]

That 210 par 3 is probably about 140-50 from 6000 yard tees that a guy that drives it 220 plays. Throw in another 20-30 yards for being uphill and you are hitting a 3/4 hybrid. That is tough but not insane as long as the whole is playable if you miss the green. It is really all about design. It is ok to pull a 3/5 wood on a par 3 as long as the hole is built for it (i.e there should be bailout zones and the green needs to be decently sized and able to hold these shots). To some extent the long par 3s really show who is playing too long of course for their game. You can fake the par 4 and 5s by over clubbing (driver+5 wood).

[quote name='JustTheTips' timestamp='1432068901' post='11588552']
[quote name='DTXgolfer12' timestamp='1432051116' post='11586210']
[quote name='Shipwreck' timestamp='1432005624' post='11583682']
[quote name='DTXgolfer12' timestamp='1431962211' post='11578804']
[b]However some of these long par 3's are getting ridiculous. 270 yards for a par 3 guarded by water and bunkers is stupid.[/b]
[/quote]

This. This is what drives me insane. There is one par 3 I remember in San Diego, at Carmel Mountain Ranch. Now, according to the scorecard, the Par 3 is around 210 as the crow flies. But this is pretty much sea level....and the green is uphill, so it plays probably close to 250+ You should never have to take a 3 wood or driver to a Par 3. Ever.
[/quote]

Yep and it's becoming more and more common. I mean supposedly the "average weekend golfer" hits a driver 220 yards. Well from the whites that's how far that hole is. What chance does a 15 handicap have of hitting a green with a driver? 1 in 20?
[/quote]

That 210 par 3 is probably about 140-50 from 6000 yard tees that a guy that drives it 220 plays. Throw in another 20-30 yards for being uphill and you are hitting a 3/4 hybrid. That is tough but not insane as long as the whole is playable if you miss the green. It is really all about design. It is ok to pull a 3/5 wood on a par 3 [b]as long as the hole is built for it[/b] (i.e there should be bailout zones and the green needs to be decently sized and able to hold these shots). To some extent the long par 3s really show who is playing too long of course for their game. You can fake the par 4 and 5s by over clubbing (driver+5 wood).

exactly. A hole a green that is wider than it is long....guarded by water short and bunkers right is not built for a 270 yard approach shot.
[/quote]

Do the pars on the scorecard really matter? The goal is still to get it in the hole in a few strokes as possible. Just play the yardage and plan according to your abilities.

[quote name='JustTheTips' timestamp='1432068901' post='11588552']
[quote name='DTXgolfer12' timestamp='1432051116' post='11586210']
[quote name='Shipwreck' timestamp='1432005624' post='11583682']
[quote name='DTXgolfer12' timestamp='1431962211' post='11578804']
[b]However some of these long par 3's are getting ridiculous. 270 yards for a par 3 guarded by water and bunkers is stupid.[/b]
[/quote]

This. This is what drives me insane. There is one par 3 I remember in San Diego, at Carmel Mountain Ranch. Now, according to the scorecard, the Par 3 is around 210 as the crow flies. But this is pretty much sea level....and the green is uphill, so it plays probably close to 250+ You should never have to take a 3 wood or driver to a Par 3. Ever.
[/quote]

Yep and it's becoming more and more common. I mean supposedly the "average weekend golfer" hits a driver 220 yards. Well from the whites that's how far that hole is. What chance does a 15 handicap have of hitting a green with a driver? 1 in 20?
[/quote]

That 210 par 3 is probably about 140-50 from 6000 yard tees that a guy that drives it 220 plays. Throw in another 20-30 yards for being uphill and you are hitting a 3/4 hybrid. That is tough but not insane as long as the whole is playable if you miss the green. It is really all about design. It is ok to pull a 3/5 wood on a par 3 as long as the hole is built for it (i.e there should be bailout zones and the green needs to be decently sized and able to hold these shots). To some extent the long par 3s really show who is playing too long of course for their game. You can fake the par 4 and 5s by over clubbing (driver+5 wood).
[/quote]

I learned this a year or two ago. I started basing which tees I was going to play off of the par 3's. I'd like to have one where I am playing a long iron one, one where it is a short iron or wedge, and the rest be mid irons. I find the rest of the holes usually sort themselves out quite well.

I am pretty sure the long par 4 and short par 5 thing is a psychological thing for the average golfer. Give us a short par 5 so that we can have a birdie chance and feel good about ourselves. Then give us the long par 4 to humble us immediately after so that we remember just how hard this game really is, lol.

[quote name='Evan B.' timestamp='1432181753' post='11598770']
[quote name='JustTheTips' timestamp='1432068901' post='11588552']
[quote name='DTXgolfer12' timestamp='1432051116' post='11586210']
[quote name='Shipwreck' timestamp='1432005624' post='11583682']
[quote name='DTXgolfer12' timestamp='1431962211' post='11578804']
[b]However some of these long par 3's are getting ridiculous. 270 yards for a par 3 guarded by water and bunkers is stupid.[/b]
[/quote]

This. This is what drives me insane. There is one par 3 I remember in San Diego, at Carmel Mountain Ranch. Now, according to the scorecard, the Par 3 is around 210 as the crow flies. But this is pretty much sea level....and the green is uphill, so it plays probably close to 250+ You should never have to take a 3 wood or driver to a Par 3. Ever.
[/quote]

Yep and it's becoming more and more common. I mean supposedly the "average weekend golfer" hits a driver 220 yards. Well from the whites that's how far that hole is. What chance does a 15 handicap have of hitting a green with a driver? 1 in 20?
[/quote]

That 210 par 3 is probably about 140-50 from 6000 yard tees that a guy that drives it 220 plays. Throw in another 20-30 yards for being uphill and you are hitting a 3/4 hybrid. That is tough but not insane as long as the whole is playable if you miss the green. It is really all about design. It is ok to pull a 3/5 wood on a par 3 as long as the hole is built for it (i.e there should be bailout zones and the green needs to be decently sized and able to hold these shots). To some extent the long par 3s really show who is playing too long of course for their game. You can fake the par 4 and 5s by over clubbing (driver+5 wood).
[/quote]

I learned this a year or two ago. I started basing which tees I was going to play off of the par 3's. I'd like to have one where I am playing a long iron one, one where it is a short iron or wedge, and the rest be mid irons. I find the rest of the holes usually sort themselves out quite well.

I am pretty sure the long par 4 and short par 5 thing is a psychological thing for the average golfer. Give us a short par 5 so that we can have a birdie chance and feel good about ourselves. Then give us the long par 4 to humble us immediately after so that we remember just how hard this game really is, lol.
[/quote]

Ok I got to take back what I said about Par3's not being so bad. I was playing with my dad he was playing from the 5530 yard tees and we come across a 200 yard Par 3. With water on the right and trees on the left. The good news was that there was a minifairway at about 150 out. It is a hole that basically required him to hit driver and if you missed the fairway to the right, it was in the water and if you hit to the the left you were in the trees. That is pretty brutal. And I doubt many people playing 5500 hit the driver much more than 200 on anything but the firmest fairways. For most people laying up (5 wood goes about 160 or so) is probably the only sane play. For reference from the 6400 yard tees it was 220. Thats a tough shot (3 hybrid that you need to hit high enough to stick on the green) but reasonable.