Dynamic lie angles.

Can someone tell me this . Using a correct swing path, if the ball consistently goes right of target, would the lie be too flat or too upright for a LEFTY?

If it was specifically related to your lie angle it would be the clubs are too upright.

It’s more likely related to you not squaring the club face to the intended target line before impact. I Would bet your club face is closed, pointing right, at impact when compared to your target line.

Ball flight is mainly determined by club path AND the position of the clubface at impact. They both need to be correct. The third variable is lie angle.

With that said, if your club path and club face position are both perfect at impact, clubs that are too upright will always launch slightly right of target and clubs that are too flat will always launch slightly left of target.....FOR A LEFTY..

Edit... Didn’t see the lefty part at first. I adjusted it.

If the lie is causing it, it is probably too upright. Heel impacts first closing the club head. Check your divots and see if they're deeper on the heel side.

Edit: better yet, do this test.

http://www.golfwrx.com/277293/the-best-way-to-fit-lie-angle/

Without seeing the swing... good bet that you are aimed there.

If it was specifically related to your lie angle it would be the clubs are too flat.

 

It’s more likely related to you not squaring the club face to the intended target line before impact.

 

Ball flight is mainly determined by club path AND the position of the clubface at impact. They both need to be correct. The third variable is lie angle.

 

With that said, if your club path and club face position are both perfect at impact, clubs that are too upright will always launch slightly left of target and clubs that are too flat will always launch slightly right of target.

I think this is for a right handed player?

If it was specifically related to your lie angle it would be the clubs are too flat.

 

It’s more likely related to you not squaring the club face to the intended target line before impact.

 

Ball flight is mainly determined by club path AND the position of the clubface at impact. They both need to be correct. The third variable is lie angle.

 

With that said, if your club path and club face position are both perfect at impact, clubs that are too upright will always launch slightly left of target and clubs that are too flat will always launch slightly right of target.

 

I think this is for a right handed player?

Yep. I switched it.

Incidentally, Lie angle directional issues are not caused by the heel or toe impacting the ground and opening or closing the face. The ball is long gone before this can happen unless the impact with the ground happens first. It NEVER should. The ball always is struck before The ground is struck on a good swing.

If the lie is causing it, it is probably too upright. Heel impacts first closing the club head. Check your divots and see if they're deeper on the heel side.

 

Edit: better yet, do this test.

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/277293/the-best-way-to-fit-lie-angle/

This isn’t how it works. (I’m not referring to the video). Check my previous post. Many beginners believe this Because it seems logical, but it’s not how lie angle works on ball flight.

The ball is gone before you touch the ground with the club on any proper swing,

Divots in the ground should start at a position IN FRONT of where the ball used to be.

If the lie is causing it, it is probably too upright. Heel impacts first closing the club head. Check your divots and see if they're deeper on the heel side.

 

Edit: better yet, do this test.

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/277293/the-best-way-to-fit-lie-angle/

 

This isn’t how it works. (I’m not referring to the video). Check my previous post. Many beginners believe this Because it seems logical, but it’s not how lie angle works on ball flight.

 

The ball is gone before you touch the ground with the club on any proper swing,

 

Divots in the ground should start at a position IN FRONT of where the ball used to be.

Interesting. I've always assumed that's why. What causes the directional difference with improper lie?

If the lie is causing it, it is probably too upright. Heel impacts first closing the club head. Check your divots and see if they're deeper on the heel side.

 

Edit: better yet, do this test.

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/277293/the-best-way-to-fit-lie-angle/

 

This isn’t how it works. (I’m not referring to the video). Check my previous post. Many beginners believe this Because it seems logical, but it’s not how lie angle works on ball flight.

 

The ball is gone before you touch the ground with the club on any proper swing,

 

Divots in the ground should start at a position IN FRONT of where the ball used to be.

 

Interesting. I've always assumed that's why. What causes the directional difference with improper lie?

Yes. You would not be the first or the last. It comes up on golf forums constantly because it seems logical. Unless the shot is extremely fat, the ball is gone before the ground is hit.

I’m not sure If my wording will make sense, but When lie is incorrect the face of the club is essentially “ pointed” either left or right of target at impact when everything else is correct. The plane of the face actually creates its own pull or push effect on the ball. Even if path and club face are perfect, an incorrect lie will still effect the initial launch direction of the ball.

One critical thing to note: THE MORE LOFT THE CLUB HAS, THE MORE AN INCORRECT LIE AFFECTS BALL FLIGHT. This is why it’s Sooooo critical that your short irons and wedges are spot on.

If the lie is causing it, it is probably too upright. Heel impacts first closing the club head. Check your divots and see if they're deeper on the heel side.

 

Edit: better yet, do this test.

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/277293/the-best-way-to-fit-lie-angle/

 

This isn’t how it works. (I’m not referring to the video). Check my previous post. Many beginners believe this Because it seems logical, but it’s not how lie angle works on ball flight.

 

The ball is gone before you touch the ground with the club on any proper swing,

 

Divots in the ground should start at a position IN FRONT of where the ball used to be.

 

Interesting. I've always assumed that's why. What causes the directional difference with improper lie?

 

Yes. You would not be the first of the last. It comes up on golf forums constantly because it seems logical. Unless the shot is extremely fat, the ball is gone before the ground is hit.

 

I’m not sure If my wording will make sense, but When lie is incorrect the face of the club is essentially “ pointed” either left or right of target at impact when everything else is correct. The plane of the face actually creates its own pull or push effect on the ball. Even if path and club face are perfect, an incorrect lie will still effect the initial launch direction of the ball.

 

 

Great info!! Thanks!

JagPiloto has already showed what lie angles might do, but just let me add a few things

The START DIRECTION of the flight, is always FACE ANGLE at impact, so pay attention to that (let a helper do it)

A lie angle thats upright at impact, will tilt the SPIN AXIS to the left (for a right hand player, and to the right for a left hand player)

The ball always spin back, and the ball is "pulled" 90* vs its spin axis, so a strait ball flight, has a spin axis thats horizontal or 0*

1* to much upright, will tilt the spin axis with 3* to the left and make a curved flight that ends about 3 yards left of target for a right hand player.

The same thing happens when Face angle is closed 1* vs club path. That also gives a tilt of 3* and send the ball 3 yards left of target.

If lie was 2* upright at impact, its the same as a face angle thats 2* closed vs club head path, and both makes a tilt of 6* on the spin axis = 6 yards off

So, its not always lie angles thats to much upright thats causing a unwanted draw or hook, a way too face closed vs club head path (not swing direction) does the same, and combined we are in trouble, so take a look at both. (to "strong" grip on the lowest hand is often the reason for a face angle to closed at impact).

Good stuff guys...

I understand how a longer shaft will make a club play more upright, and a shorter shaft will make it play flatter in a relative sense.

What I have never understood from a fitters perspective is when do you go longer vs. more upright? What are the determining factors?

Also what are your thought on wedge lie angle, and at what loft should you start thinking about being a bit flatter vs. the rest of the set?

(For the record I play Ping irons, standard length, 1.5 up, yellow dot, all irons, but my 54 and 58* wedges are standard lie at 64*)

Good stuff guys...

 

I understand how a longer shaft will make a club play more upright, and a shorter shaft will make it play flatter in a relative sense.

 

 

What I have never understood from a fitters perspective is when do you go longer vs. more upright? What are the determining factors?

 

Also what are your thought on wedge lie angle, and at what loft should you start thinking about being a bit flatter vs. the rest of the set?

 

(For the record I play Ping irons, standard length, 1.5 up, yellow dot, all irons, but my 54 and 58* wedges are standard lie at 64*)

Play length is a question of a stance thats comfortable and give the player the best odd to make a good swing, and his eye to hand coordination. To long long irons and we cant make a good impact, and to short short irons makes us hanging to much over the ball, and thats neither comfortable or good if we want to make a good golf swing, so both ends of a set should fit the player on play length, and thats why im a big fan of 3/8" set ups vs the classic 4/8". When play length is found, we looks at lie angles, i never used lie angles to adjust play length, it treat them as separate fitting parameters even if they does make a influence on each other.

Wedges and when to go flatter....when you start to pull the ball as mishit or clubs mostly for partials

Without seeing the swing... good bet that you are aimed there.

No

Without seeing the swing... good bet that you are aimed there.

 

No

Is that a no you aren't going to show us a swing or you aren't aimed incorrectly? I'm not being an Word not allowed here. I have many times sworn I'm aimed correctly and using alignment rods to confirm and yet my instructor (with video evidence) has proven to me that my shoulders or hip were not pointed the same way my feet were.

Without seeing the swing... good bet that you are aimed there.

 

No

Is that a no you aren't going to show us a swing or you aren't aimed incorrectly? I'm not being an Word not allowed here. I have many times sworn I'm aimed correctly and using alignment rods to confirm and yet my instructor (with video evidence) has proven to me that my shoulders or hip were not pointed the same way my feet were.

In the very first post the OP says "assuming a correct swing path"

Without seeing the swing... good bet that you are aimed there.

 

No

Is that a no you aren't going to show us a swing or you aren't aimed incorrectly? I'm not being an Word not allowed here. I have many times sworn I'm aimed correctly and using alignment rods to confirm and yet my instructor (with video evidence) has proven to me that my shoulders or hip were not pointed the same way my feet were.

 

In the very first post the OP says "assuming a correct swing path"

I'm just saying, that might not be a correct assumption. If he has eliminated that possibility, then you all can continue down the face angle possibility.

Without seeing the swing... good bet that you are aimed there.

 

No

Is that a no you aren't going to show us a swing or you aren't aimed incorrectly? I'm not being an Word not allowed here. I have many times sworn I'm aimed correctly and using alignment rods to confirm and yet my instructor (with video evidence) has proven to me that my shoulders or hip were not pointed the same way my feet were.

 

In the very first post the OP says "assuming a correct swing path"

It’s very easy to assume it’s correct and it actually isn’t.

If I don’t use alignment sticks EVERY single time I practice I will absolutely start setting up more and more closed to my intended target line and start hitting everything right of target. It’s infuriating.

Sometimes I get out on the course and occasionally have a case of “the rights” where I hit it absolutely flush and I swear I know a second after the ball leaves the face that I’m set up wrong. I’ll drop the club at my feet touching my big toes and sure enough, it’s pointed at the right edge of the green. Uuugh!!

Most people that do this actually start pulling the ball left of their target even though they set up more and more right of the target. Reverse for lefties of course.

Without seeing the swing... good bet that you are aimed there.

 

No

Is that a no you aren't going to show us a swing or you aren't aimed incorrectly? I'm not being an Word not allowed here. I have many times sworn I'm aimed correctly and using alignment rods to confirm and yet my instructor (with video evidence) has proven to me that my shoulders or hip were not pointed the same way my feet were.

 

In the very first post the OP says "assuming a correct swing path"

Winner winner ! Some want to assume but that was never asked. It was a simple question about equipment TECH not a swing instruction post . You sir got it right. Thank you .

Without seeing the swing... good bet that you are aimed there.

 

No

Is that a no you aren't going to show us a swing or you aren't aimed incorrectly? I'm not being an Word not allowed here. I have many times sworn I'm aimed correctly and using alignment rods to confirm and yet my instructor (with video evidence) has proven to me that my shoulders or hip were not pointed the same way my feet were.

 

In the very first post the OP says "assuming a correct swing path"

 

Winner winner ! Some want to assume but that was never asked. It was a simple question about equipment TECH not a swing instruction post . You sir got it right. Thank you .

Ok. A hypothetical question. Then Jag has it right.

PS! Swing path or swing direction does not matter, its CLUB PATH at impact vs face angle that matters, so dont mix the two.

We can have a in to out swing path, but that does not mean the club head moves in to out at the moment of impact.

When we try to hit a draw with a positive AOA, we should have a in to out swing path and enough in to out so the club head is still moving in to out a bit after the bottom of the swing (at the moment of impact).

If we had a swing path at 0 to target line, the club head moves in to out all the way down to the bottom where it change direction and starts to move out to in.

https://mytrackman.c...g-the-d---plane

Interesting. I've always assumed that's why. What causes the directional difference with improper lie?

Here's the perfect youtube video to show you how it affects ball direction... the best bit is at !min25secs and after where Maltby demonstrates the cluvbface direction changing as you alter lie angle...

ps this is also why playing off a sloping lie will also affect ball direction - on a flat ground you can align yourself with heels parallel to target line, make an 'ideal' swing and hit it straight at the target (for instance). On a sloping sidehill lie where the ball is above your feet, you will appear to hit a pull (or maybe also have a stronger draw/hook curvature) - this is due to your clubface now being more upright and not because you hit a pull... edit - i mean, you didn't make a 'pull' swing, the pull is just due to the sidehill lie effect.

[media=]

If you're like me and hate wasting time watching YouTube video's and prefer the low band width explanation:

https://www.tutelman.com/golf/design/lie1.php