Interclub Rules Fiasco

So we play against 3 other clubs over two days in 2 man stableford comp. Net better ball. Top place team in each bracket of 4 move to the finals against 9 other clubs

Anyways, with 9 holes to go in our second day, the head of my driver fell off. My beloved Oban Revenge 65x had failed. I just bent over to grab my headcover and it fell to the ground with a sickening thud, It explained why I had some funky drives earlier in the round but the drive before failure was a world beater

One of the twosome we are against is the club captain at the other club, and has been to rules seminars and is the self appointed rules guru of their club

I go into the shop for a new driver. This guy says no I broke it. I tell him I did not do it on purpose or in anger so I am allowed. I explain how a rule official in a Cdn Mid Am actually went to my rental car to get me a new 3w when my 3w head flew off into a pond. He wants to know how many years ago it was as the rules changed in 2019. Good grief. The pro in the shop says I am good, we look at the rules. Rules guru says "are we sure what natural forces are?" The two pro's in the group behind us (one of them is his head pro) also say I am good. Now he goes on about I have to replace it with one of my own clubs and not any club. And that I am only safe if the head pro at the local club is the rules committee.

In frustration I said F it, and just played the back with my 3w like a champ. I was 95% certain he was in the wrong but it was a billion degrees out and I did not want to make too much out of this awkward scenario .. based on the small scale of this event. (A big am event at a long track where I need a driver, I am waiting on a ruling from an official)

My Q is this:

What do you do in this scenario ... when after the fact you know you are 100% right

I want to text this guy thru a friend to let him know he was wrong and ask for an apology

Webb Simpson ran into an issue at the Northern Trust a few weeks ago where they did not allow him to replace a damaged driver. Can't remember exactly why and don't really feel like Googling it now but felt totally up to writing this response to recommend you refer to the ole Google machine...

Aside from that, I'd let it go.

TBM

Never ask for an apology. Just send him the rule. And remind him m you beat him without a driver

The "rules guru" was correct [Rule 4-1b](https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/rules/the-rules-of-golf/rule-4#4-1b "Rule 4-1b"):

(3) No Replacing Lost or Damaged Clubs. If a player started with 14 clubs or added clubs up to the limit of 14 and then loses or damages a club during the round or while play is stopped under Rule 5.7a, the player must not replace it with another club.

Exception – Replacing Damaged Club When Player Did Not Cause Damage: If a player’s club is damaged during the round (including while play is stopped) (see Rule 4.1a(2)) by an outside influence or natural forces or by any person other than the player or his or her caddie:

- The player may replace the damaged club with any club under Rule 4.1b(4).

- But when the player does so, the player must immediately take the damaged club out of play, using the procedure in Rule 4.1c(1).

Edit: Also the question about the year was completely valid as the rules did change for 2019. In 2018 you could have the club replaced if it was damaged in normal course of play.

Also, the guru was wrong on the clubs allowed to be added to your bag:

(4) Restrictions When Adding or Replacing Clubs. When adding or replacing a club under (1) or (3), a player must not:

- Unreasonably delay play (see Rule 5.6a),

- Add or borrow any club from anyone else who is playing on the course (even if the other player is playing in a different group or competition), or

- Build a club from parts carried by anyone for the player during the round.

Natural Forces

The effects of nature such as wind, water or when something happens for no apparent reason because of the effects of gravity.

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/definitions.html

> @Halebopp said:

> The "rules guru" was correct [Rule 4-1b](https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/rules/the-rules-of-golf/rule-4#4-1b "Rule 4-1b"):

> (3) No Replacing Lost or Damaged Clubs. If a player started with 14 clubs or added clubs up to the limit of 14 and then loses or damages a club during the round or while play is stopped under Rule 5.7a, the player must not replace it with another club.

>

> Exception – Replacing Damaged Club When Player Did Not Cause Damage: If a player’s club is damaged during the round (including while play is stopped) (see Rule 4.1a(2)) by an outside influence or natural forces or by any person other than the player or his or her caddie:

>

> - The player may replace the damaged club with any club under Rule 4.1b(4).

> - But when the player does so, the player must immediately take the damaged club out of play, using the procedure in Rule 4.1c(1).

>

> Edit: Also the question about the year was completely valid as the rules did change for 2019. In 2018 you could have the club replaced if it was damaged in normal course of play.

>

> Also, the guru was wrong on the clubs allowed to be added to your bag:

>

> (4) Restrictions When Adding or Replacing Clubs. When adding or replacing a club under (1) or (3), a player must not:

>

> - Unreasonably delay play (see Rule 5.6a),

> - Add or borrow any club from anyone else who is playing on the course (even if the other player is playing in a different group or competition), or

> - Build a club from parts carried by anyone for the player during the round.

I think you are wrong, I did not damage the club.

Presuming that local rules were in effect for the event, there was a July 1 USGA clarifications specific to this question.

https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/2019/rules/ClarificationsJuly2019.pdf

Model Local Rule G-9 “Rule 4.1b(3) is modified in this way:

If a player’s club is “broken or significantly damaged” during the round by the player or caddie,

except in cases of abuse, the player may replace the club with any club under Rule 4.1b(4).

When replacing a club, the player must immediately take the broken or significantly damaged

club out of play, using the procedure in Rule 4.1c(1).

For the purposes of this Local Rule:

A club is “broken or significantly damaged” when:

* the shaft breaks into pieces, splinters or is bent (but not when the shaft is only dented)

* the club face impact area is visibly deformed (but not when the club face is only scratched)

* the clubhead is visibly and significantly deformed

* the clubhead is detached** or loose from the shaft, or

* the grip is loose.

Exception:

A club face or clubhead is not “broken or significantly damaged” solely because it is cracked.

> @cardoustie said:

> > @Halebopp said:

> > The "rules guru" was correct [Rule 4-1b](https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/rules/the-rules-of-golf/rule-4#4-1b "Rule 4-1b"):

> > (3) No Replacing Lost or Damaged Clubs. If a player started with 14 clubs or added clubs up to the limit of 14 and then loses or damages a club during the round or while play is stopped under Rule 5.7a, the player must not replace it with another club.

> >

> > Exception – Replacing Damaged Club When Player Did Not Cause Damage: If a player’s club is damaged during the round (including while play is stopped) (see Rule 4.1a(2)) by an outside influence or natural forces or by any person other than the player or his or her caddie:

> >

> > - The player may replace the damaged club with any club under Rule 4.1b(4).

> > - But when the player does so, the player must immediately take the damaged club out of play, using the procedure in Rule 4.1c(1).

> >

> > Edit: Also the question about the year was completely valid as the rules did change for 2019. In 2018 you could have the club replaced if it was damaged in normal course of play.

> >

> > Also, the guru was wrong on the clubs allowed to be added to your bag:

> >

> > (4) Restrictions When Adding or Replacing Clubs. When adding or replacing a club under (1) or (3), a player must not:

> >

> > - Unreasonably delay play (see Rule 5.6a),

> > - Add or borrow any club from anyone else who is playing on the course (even if the other player is playing in a different group or competition), or

> > - Build a club from parts carried by anyone for the player during the round.

>

> I think you are wrong, I did not damage the club.

Was it by an outside influence or natural forces (wind, water or gravity) or by any person other than you or your caddie? To me it sounds like you using your club caused it to fail.

> @cardoustie said:

> > @Halebopp said:

> > The "rules guru" was correct [Rule 4-1b](https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/rules/the-rules-of-golf/rule-4#4-1b "Rule 4-1b"):

> > (3) No Replacing Lost or Damaged Clubs. If a player started with 14 clubs or added clubs up to the limit of 14 and then loses or damages a club during the round or while play is stopped under Rule 5.7a, the player must not replace it with another club.

> >

> > Exception – Replacing Damaged Club When Player Did Not Cause Damage: If a player’s club is damaged during the round (including while play is stopped) (see Rule 4.1a(2)) by an outside influence or natural forces or by any person other than the player or his or her caddie:

> >

> > - The player may replace the damaged club with any club under Rule 4.1b(4).

> > - But when the player does so, the player must immediately take the damaged club out of play, using the procedure in Rule 4.1c(1).

> >

> > Edit: Also the question about the year was completely valid as the rules did change for 2019. In 2018 you could have the club replaced if it was damaged in normal course of play.

> >

> > Also, the guru was wrong on the clubs allowed to be added to your bag:

> >

> > (4) Restrictions When Adding or Replacing Clubs. When adding or replacing a club under (1) or (3), a player must not:

> >

> > - Unreasonably delay play (see Rule 5.6a),

> > - Add or borrow any club from anyone else who is playing on the course (even if the other player is playing in a different group or competition), or

> > - Build a club from parts carried by anyone for the player during the round.

>

> I think you are wrong, I did not damage the club.

You didn't tell that in your original post, "Anyways, with 9 holes to go in our second day, the head of my driver fell off."

You can replace the damaged club if it was damaged by outside influence (another player, a spectator, an animal etc.) or by natural forces (wind, water, gravity, lightning strike etc.). Which one of those broke it?

> @Halebopp said:

> > @cardoustie said:

> > > @Halebopp said:

> > > The "rules guru" was correct [Rule 4-1b](https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/rules/the-rules-of-golf/rule-4#4-1b "Rule 4-1b"):

> > > (3) No Replacing Lost or Damaged Clubs. If a player started with 14 clubs or added clubs up to the limit of 14 and then loses or damages a club during the round or while play is stopped under Rule 5.7a, the player must not replace it with another club.

> > >

> > > Exception – Replacing Damaged Club When Player Did Not Cause Damage: If a player’s club is damaged during the round (including while play is stopped) (see Rule 4.1a(2)) by an outside influence or natural forces or by any person other than the player or his or her caddie:

> > >

> > > - The player may replace the damaged club with any club under Rule 4.1b(4).

> > > - But when the player does so, the player must immediately take the damaged club out of play, using the procedure in Rule 4.1c(1).

> > >

> > > Edit: Also the question about the year was completely valid as the rules did change for 2019. In 2018 you could have the club replaced if it was damaged in normal course of play.

> > >

> > > Also, the guru was wrong on the clubs allowed to be added to your bag:

> > >

> > > (4) Restrictions When Adding or Replacing Clubs. When adding or replacing a club under (1) or (3), a player must not:

> > >

> > > - Unreasonably delay play (see Rule 5.6a),

> > > - Add or borrow any club from anyone else who is playing on the course (even if the other player is playing in a different group or competition), or

> > > - Build a club from parts carried by anyone for the player during the round.

> >

> > I think you are wrong, I did not damage the club.

>

> You didn't tell that in your original post, "Anyways, with 9 holes to go in our second day, the head of my driver fell off."

>

> You can replace the damaged club if it was damaged by outside influence (another player, a spectator, an animal etc.) or by natural forces (wind, water, gravity, lightning strike etc.). Which one of those broke it?

I guess that's why they did the clarification. The original re-write was garbage

the shaft was sheared right above the hosel, I'd say that meets the "broken into pieces" part in the July clarification listed above

> @cardoustie said:

> > @Halebopp said:

> > > @cardoustie said:

> > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > The "rules guru" was correct [Rule 4-1b](https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/rules/the-rules-of-golf/rule-4#4-1b "Rule 4-1b"):

> > > > (3) No Replacing Lost or Damaged Clubs. If a player started with 14 clubs or added clubs up to the limit of 14 and then loses or damages a club during the round or while play is stopped under Rule 5.7a, the player must not replace it with another club.

> > > >

> > > > Exception – Replacing Damaged Club When Player Did Not Cause Damage: If a player’s club is damaged during the round (including while play is stopped) (see Rule 4.1a(2)) by an outside influence or natural forces or by any person other than the player or his or her caddie:

> > > >

> > > > - The player may replace the damaged club with any club under Rule 4.1b(4).

> > > > - But when the player does so, the player must immediately take the damaged club out of play, using the procedure in Rule 4.1c(1).

> > > >

> > > > Edit: Also the question about the year was completely valid as the rules did change for 2019. In 2018 you could have the club replaced if it was damaged in normal course of play.

> > > >

> > > > Also, the guru was wrong on the clubs allowed to be added to your bag:

> > > >

> > > > (4) Restrictions When Adding or Replacing Clubs. When adding or replacing a club under (1) or (3), a player must not:

> > > >

> > > > - Unreasonably delay play (see Rule 5.6a),

> > > > - Add or borrow any club from anyone else who is playing on the course (even if the other player is playing in a different group or competition), or

> > > > - Build a club from parts carried by anyone for the player during the round.

> > >

> > > I think you are wrong, I did not damage the club.

> >

> > You didn't tell that in your original post, "Anyways, with 9 holes to go in our second day, the head of my driver fell off."

> >

> > You can replace the damaged club if it was damaged by outside influence (another player, a spectator, an animal etc.) or by natural forces (wind, water, gravity, lightning strike etc.). Which one of those broke it?

>

> I guess that's why they did the clarification. The original re-write was garbage

Would you please answer my question?

Also, are you now also bringing in another new piece of information saying the local rule G-9 was in effect? Are you also changing your claim about an outside influence or natural forces breaking your club? Because the local rule G-9 doesn't need to be considered in such cases.

> @cardoustie said:

> the shaft was sheared right above the hosel, I'd say that meets the "broken into pieces" part in the July clarification listed above

Clarification in this case is not a "change in rules text", but a Local Rule. Did they have local rule G-9 in effect? Otherwise I do not see how the club could be changed.

I did not read it as **local** rule .. that surprises me

If a club fails from normal usage, is there not a valid argument that it must be from "natural forces." I'm lost. If I am holding my driver and the head falls off 10 seconds after my last shot .. is that gravity? If not what is it then? Wear and tear or ?

When the USGA did their dog and pony show about important '19 rules changes nothing came up about damaged club changes. To me this seems to be an oversight as I've seen clubs fail quite a few times.

Also, in reasonable circumstances how is one to know what suggested local rules are in play for small events of this nature?

It sure would be easy to say the rules are still overly complex

> @cardoustie said:

> It sure would be easy to say the rules are still overly complex

They are complex because of all the possible scenarios that players get themselves into. And yes, the existence of local rules does add some complexity, but adds a some flexibility to the rules.

Reaching for your headcover is neither an outside influence nor a natural force. You caused the damage. You are not allowed to replace the club unless new local Rule G-9 is in place. It is highly unlikely that this local Rule was in place because it was only published on the USGA website as a clarification. The fact that the pro was looking at the Rules in regard to natural forces and outside influences indicates to me that he was unaware of the possibility of local Rule G-9.

> @cardoustie said:

> I did not read it as **local** rule .. that surprises me

> If a club fails from normal usage, is there not a valid argument that it must be from "natural forces." I'm lost. If I am holding my driver and the head falls off 10 seconds after my last shot .. is that gravity? If not what is it then? Wear and tear or ?

> When the USGA did their dog and pony show about important '19 rules changes nothing came up about damaged club changes. To me this seems to be an oversight as I've seen clubs fail quite a few times.

> Also, in reasonable circumstances how is one to know what suggested local rules are in play for small events of this nature?

> It sure would be easy to say the rules are still overly complex

It is normal wear and tear, although sometimes it might seem rather abnormal.

If there are no Conditions of Competition or local rules for the competition itself, the local rules of the club/course should be in effect.

> @Wendy123 said:

> Reaching for your headcover is neither an outside influence nor a natural force. You caused the damage. You are not allowed to replace the club unless new local Rule G-9 is in place. It is highly unlikely that this local Rule was in place because it was only published on the USGA website as a clarification. The fact that the pro was looking at the Rules in regard to natural forces and outside influences indicates to me that he was unaware of the possibility of local Rule G-9.

Wendy you need to meet Uncle Cardie because he is a natural force.

Well the new rules are very confusing. Why can't a club damaged thru regular use no longer be replaced? Rationale?

Of course three pro's didn't know about July amendment with new local. 99% of pro's don't know this and I doubt any local clubs have this in place

I went out of my way to learn the 2019 changes. I've been playing events for a LOOONG time and in no place did I read about this and I am guessing based on the local rule addendum, the ruling bodies got some flack on it as well

Why make a local rule, why not make it a direct amendment?

> @DavePelz4 said:

> > @Wendy123 said:

> > Reaching for your headcover is neither an outside influence nor a natural force. You caused the damage. You are not allowed to replace the club unless new local Rule G-9 is in place. It is highly unlikely that this local Rule was in place because it was only published on the USGA website as a clarification. The fact that the pro was looking at the Rules in regard to natural forces and outside influences indicates to me that he was unaware of the possibility of local Rule G-9.

>

> Wendy you need to meet Uncle Cardie because he is a natural force.

I prefer super-natural

> @Wendy123 said:

> Reaching for your headcover is neither an outside influence nor a natural force. You caused the damage. You are not allowed to replace the club unless new local Rule G-9 is in place. It is highly unlikely that this local Rule was in place because it was only published on the USGA website as a clarification. The fact that the pro was looking at the Rules in regard to natural forces and outside influences indicates to me that he was unaware of the possibility of local Rule G-9.

How did I cause the damage?

" Why can't a club damaged thru regular use no longer be replaced? Rationale? "

The old Rule was quite confusing. Sometimes a club could be used in its damaged state, sometimes it couldn't. Sometimes a club could be replaced, sometimes it couldn't. The penalties for getting it wrong could be severe. The new local Rule is likely only going to be used on Tour or in very high level events where players have access to replacement clubs and officials to help with the specifics of the ruling.

> @cardoustie said:

> Well the new rules are very confusing. Why can't a club damaged thru regular use no longer be replaced? Rationale?

> Of course three pro's didn't know about July amendment with new local. 99% of pro's don't know this and I doubt any local clubs have this in place

> I went out of my way to learn the 2019 changes. I've been playing events for a LOOONG time and in no place did I read about this and I am guessing based on the local rule addendum, they ruling bodies got some flack on it as well

> Why make a local rule, why not make it a direct amendment?

If you look under Item 29 here, you'll find some explanation:

https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/2019/rules/Explanation%20for%20Each%20Major%20Change%20in%20the%20New%20Rules%20of%20Golf%20for%202019.pdf

I remembered reading about this particular change, but not until this thread started did I look back to refresh my memory.

The matter was also briefly discussed in March 2018:

https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/2019/rules/Summary%20of%20Main%20Changes_2019%20Rules%20of%20Golf_FINAL%202.6.pdf

Sounds as though there was a stress fracture in the tip that eventually took gave way. The alleged self-appointed rules opponent behaved like a putz. Based on the way you described what happened, can't see any reason why you couldn't quickly replace it and be within the rules, at least local rules. However, I am not a rules expert. Just because someone attends a few rules classes, doesn't make him an expert and he should know that.

PS I just read Local Rule G-9. That rule says "yes", replace it. Related note: I played Interclub team competition for ten years. I recall, a few opponents experienced similar. Our team told them to replace their club.

> @davep043 said:

> > @cardoustie said:

> > Well the new rules are very confusing. Why can't a club damaged thru regular use no longer be replaced? Rationale?

> > Of course three pro's didn't know about July amendment with new local. 99% of pro's don't know this and I doubt any local clubs have this in place

> > I went out of my way to learn the 2019 changes. I've been playing events for a LOOONG time and in no place did I read about this and I am guessing based on the local rule addendum, they ruling bodies got some flack on it as well

> > Why make a local rule, why not make it a direct amendment?

>

> If you look under Item 29 here, you'll find some explanation:

> https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/2019/rules/Explanation%20for%20Each%20Major%20Change%20in%20the%20New%20Rules%20of%20Golf%20for%202019.pdf

> I remembered reading about this particular change, but not until this thread started did I look back to refresh my memory.

> The matter was also briefly discussed in March 2018:

> https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/2019/rules/Summary%20of%20Main%20Changes_2019%20Rules%20of%20Golf_FINAL%202.6.pdf

>

thx for sharing DaveP

> @HatsForBats said:

> Natural Forces

> The effects of nature such as wind, water or when something happens for no apparent reason because of the effects of gravity.

>

> https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/definitions.html

I would argue no apparent reason, it just failed and fell off

> @cardoustie said:

>

> thx for sharing DaveP

No problem. This change didn't get the publicity that many of the others did. I do see some of the logic in the change now that I read the explanations. For the most part, the rules made things "easier" on the player. This is one instance where the player lost something he used to have, the right to replace a club.

> @Pepperturbo said:

> Sounds as though there was a stress fracture in the tip that eventually took gave way. The alleged self-appointed rules opponent behaved like a putz. Based on the way you described what happened, can't see any reason why you couldn't quickly replace it and be within the rules, at least local rules. However, I am not a rules expert. Just because someone attends a few rules classes, doesn't make him an expert and he should know that.

>

> PS I just read Local Rule G-9. That rule says "yes", replace it. Related note: I played Interclub team competition for ten years. I recall, a few opponents experienced similar. Our team told them to replace their club.

Well, this guy will most likely turn out to be right because it's VERY unlikely that the local rule was in place. Maybe it was, I can't be bothered to ask

I guess the nature of the conversation rubbed me the wrong way .. likely because I had 3 ball in pocket doubles on the front with crazy 40 yard blocked drives (the failing tip as a best guess, as I rarely miss right with a driver). It shouldn't have bothered me.

These things are usually "friendlies" and you never have tricky rules scenarios. I've been in a bunch of tricky scenarios over the years in provincial and national mid am events and university tournaments. Easy. Call an official over to get it right.

Q: Is the head pro at the club the rules committee at the event ... and he said good to go. So ... If I had taken the driver would I have been OK?

> @Pepperturbo said:

> Sounds as though there was a stress fracture in the tip that eventually took gave way. The alleged self-appointed rules opponent behaved like a putz. Based on the way you described what happened, can't see any reason why you couldn't quickly replace it and be within the rules, at least local rules. However, I am not a rules expert. Just because someone attends a few rules classes, doesn't make him an expert and he should know that.

>

> PS I just read Local Rule G-9. That rule says "yes", replace it. Related note: I played Interclub team competition for ten years. I recall, a few opponents experienced similar. Our team told them to replace their club.

Allowing players to replace the broken club was allowed last year and going back. This year? Unless the course or competition being played at has enacted that Local Rule you are not allowed to replace if you broke it.