Interclub Rules Fiasco

[cardoustie]

my father always told me to try and learn something every day, humble pie served up cold !!!!

[CaseyC]

> @cardoustie said:

> > .... (the failing tip as a best guess, as I rarely miss right with a driver). It shouldn't have bothered me. ...

 

"There is no betting at Bushwood sir, and I never slice"

If only Judge Smails had known his club was damaged..... :)

 

[bigmoneyp]

> @cardoustie said:

> my father always told me to try and learn something every day, humble pie served up cold !!!!

 

better find his number so you can send your apology

[Augster]

You can’t replace the club. It was broken during “normal use”. It was not broken by a defined outside influence.

 

Webb Simpson just went through this. I was surprised there wasn’t a thread in here with uproar about it. It’s a pretty simple rule now. Start with 14, finish with the same 14. If someone runs a cart into your bag and snaps a shaft, you can replace it. Otherwise, if it breaks through normal use, you can continue with it or not use it. Webb continued to use it, like a moron. He hits 3wood 300+. Just hit 3-wood.

 

This was one of the better changes in the 2019 rules IMO.

[cardoustie]

> @Augster said:

> You can’t replace the club. It was broken during “normal use”. It was not broken by a defined outside influence.

>

> Webb Simpson just went through this. I was surprised there wasn’t a thread in here with uproar about it. It’s a pretty simple rule now. Start with 14, finish with the same 14. If someone runs a cart into your bag and snaps a shaft, you can replace it. Otherwise, if it breaks through normal use, you can continue with it or not use it. Webb continued to use it, like a moron. He hits 3wood 300+. Just hit 3-wood.

>

> This was one of the better changes in the 2019 rules IMO.

I think The tour uses the local rule where I could have changed it

Webb situation different ... cracked face ... specifically listed as not replaceable

 

 

[bladehunter]

Not a change for the better in my opinion. I’ve has this happen with a putter. During a 3 day event. According to this I’d have to have putter with a wedge for 16 holes. How does this protect anyone ?

[cardoustie]

I've already spoken with the other gent. All is good.

He agrees with all the local rules causing confusion especially when the tour has them in place on TV

I agree with blade. You crack a driver on a beastly long course on the first hole and you can't sub in a replacement .... STUPID

If your putter and LW fail it is also very problematic scoring wise, you the player did nothing wrong

So many rules, to my mind anyways, do not follow rules of logic

The rules folks have rules-makers making rules, that have long looked at the wording of these rules .... bring in some regular avid golfers and see if changes resonate (or are simple and understandable relate to them)

I used to produce a massive catalogue years ago as part of my first job, simple errors are missed when you see them ten times in a row

Even simple stuff like NPR is tough for most golfers, but if they knew they had one or two driver lengths all would be good

 

[gioguy21]

> @bladehunter said:

> Not a change for the better in my opinion. I’ve has this happen with a putter. During a 3 day event. According to this I’d have to have putter with a wedge for 16 holes. How does this protect anyone ?

 

...wait blade. your post has to be broken down -

 

1) IF your putter was broken by you and not exempt to the rules; yes, you would have to putt with something else for the remainder of THAT round.

2) the length of event does not matter; you could replace the club after 18 holes have been played ie, the closure of the round in which the club in question was broken/played.

3) it protects those in the field from you breakin a club that might not be working with the intent to put a different club in play that suits your needs.

 

*this is the short version, but, the gist.

[cardoustie]

Gio Guy .. I get the intent part, it's just that the change harms honest players

[gioguy21]

> @cardoustie said:

> Gio Guy .. I get the intent part, it's just that the change harms honest players

 

@cardoustie please don't get me wrong - i'm not saying i'm for/against either side - i'm just stating that rules are rules.

 

i think that the intent of the rule is what needs clarification - i get that the powers that be wanted to find a way to write the rule so that there are 2 ways the club is broken - by nature or by intent of the golfer...and nothing else, for no grey area.

 

in this case - you didn't cause the break, but b/c nothing else did cause the break...the only option is to say you caused it, which carries the worst of the decisions/punishments.

 

i can empathize with you b/c i had this happen to me. it wasn't a driver nor a putter so, it wasn't that big of a deal but, i had a 4i head come loose in my bag...not during a swing, and not due to 'nature'. i used it on one hole and it was fine...go to pull it out of the bag and took a practice swing and noticed it creak. it was determined that somewhere between shots i would've caused the head to come loose since my practice swing was not determined to be 'through the course of play'.

 

 

[Sawgrass]

IMO the old rule surrounding a damaged club or perhaps-damaged club was a bit confusing, and the new rule is too -- though somewhat less confusing. In any case, it's critical that we forget what was true and play by what is true -- including the fact that you may now use a club that you deliberately damaged in anger for the rest of your round.

 

Fortunately for the average Joe who doesn't have a replacement club nearby, things are now better at least as regards to continuing to use what you have.

[cardoustie]

> @Sawgrass said:

> IMO the old rule surrounding a damaged club or perhaps-damaged club was a bit confusing, and the new rule is too -- though somewhat less confusing. In any case, it's critical that we forget what was true and play by what is true -- including the fact that you may now use a club that you deliberately damaged in anger for the rest of your round.

>

> Fortunately for the average Joe who doesn't have a replacement club nearby, things are now better at least as regards to continuing to use what you have.

 

are you telling me most people don't have 20 spare clubs in their car ? Can't. Be. Possible.

[bladehunter]

> @gioguy21 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > Not a change for the better in my opinion. I’ve has this happen with a putter. During a 3 day event. According to this I’d have to have putter with a wedge for 16 holes. How does this protect anyone ?

>

> ...wait blade. your post has to be broken down -

>

> 1) IF your putter was broken by you and not exempt to the rules; yes, you would have to putt with something else for the remainder of THAT round.

> 2) the length of event does not matter; you could replace the club after 18 holes have been played ie, the closure of the round in which the club in question was broken/played.

> 3) it protects those in the field from you breakin a club that might not be working with the intent to put a different club in play that suits your needs.

>

> *this is the short version, but, the gist.

 

So what had happened was.....

 

 

 

I was using my old Cameron long plumbers neck Newport. Those are quite fragile in the neck of you’ve ever bent one for loft or lie. They bend easy.

 

So I’m waking with wedge and putter plus towel in hand down a slope to the green on wet Bermuda rough. I slip , catch my footing and in one motion putter and wedge go flying up in the air. I try to catch putter and miss. But I get two fingers on it and subsequently flip it forward and back up. It hits toe down on a sprinkler head and the impact bends the neck and cracks it. If I bend it back it’s going to snap off. And it currently had around - 10 degrees of loft on it. So unusable. Playing partners see it alll. So we call an official and they go to my truck and bring me another putter. I putted with a wedge for 2 holes.

 

As I understand it now I’d be screwed for the rest of the round. And nobody was protected. Only me penalized for an accident. .

[bladehunter]

> @cardoustie said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> > IMO the old rule surrounding a damaged club or perhaps-damaged club was a bit confusing, and the new rule is too -- though somewhat less confusing. In any case, it's critical that we forget what was true and play by what is true -- including the fact that you may now use a club that you deliberately damaged in anger for the rest of your round.

> >

> > Fortunately for the average Joe who doesn't have a replacement club nearby, things are now better at least as regards to continuing to use what you have.

>

> are you telling me most people don't have 20 spare clubs in their car ? Can't. Be. Possible.

 

 

Yea. My truck has a pro shop under the bed cover. I could change grips even. Lol.

[gioguy21]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @gioguy21 said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > Not a change for the better in my opinion. I’ve has this happen with a putter. During a 3 day event. According to this I’d have to have putter with a wedge for 16 holes. How does this protect anyone ?

> >

> > ...wait blade. your post has to be broken down -

> >

> > 1) IF your putter was broken by you and not exempt to the rules; yes, you would have to putt with something else for the remainder of THAT round.

> > 2) the length of event does not matter; you could replace the club after 18 holes have been played ie, the closure of the round in which the club in question was broken/played.

> > 3) it protects those in the field from you breakin a club that might not be working with the intent to put a different club in play that suits your needs.

> >

> > *this is the short version, but, the gist.

>

> So what had happened was.....

>

>

>

> I was using my old Cameron long plumbers neck Newport. Those are quite fragile in the neck of you’ve ever bent one for loft or lie. They bend easy.

>

> So I’m waking with wedge and putter plus towel in hand down a slope to the green on wet Bermuda rough. I slip , catch my footing and in one motion putter and wedge go flying up in the air. I try to catch putter and miss. But I get two fingers on it and subsequently flip it forward and back up. It hits toe down on a sprinkler head and the impact bends the neck and cracks it. If I bend it back it’s going to snap off. And it currently had around - 10 degrees of loft on it. So unusable. Playing partners see it alll. So we call an official and they go to my truck and bring me another putter. I putted with a wedge for 2 holes.

>

> As I understand it now I’d be screwed for the rest of the round. And nobody was protected. Only me penalized for an accident. .

 

oh i completely understand you and yes, it sucks...but the way the rule is written, you COULD still have used it...so, it was your choice not to. while i understand that sucks and i wouldn't personally use it either - thems' the rules.

[2bGood]

How about a moment of zen instead about letting the past go:

 

A senior monk and a junior monk were traveling together. At one point, they came to a river with a strong current. As the monks were preparing to cross the river, they saw a very young and beautiful woman also attempting to cross. The young woman asked if they could help her cross to the other side.

The two monks glanced at one another because they had taken vows not to touch a woman.

Then, without a word, the older monk picked up the woman, carried her across the river, placed her gently on the other side, and carried on his journey.

The younger monk couldn’t believe what had just happened. After rejoining his companion, he was speechless, and an hour passed without a word between them.

Two more hours passed, then three, finally the younger monk could contain himself any longer, and blurted out “As monks, we are not permitted a woman, how could you then carry that woman on your shoulders?”

The older monk looked at him and replied, “Brother, I set her down on the other side of the river, why are you still carrying her?”

 

 

 

[Sawgrass]

> @gioguy21 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @gioguy21 said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > Not a change for the better in my opinion. I’ve has this happen with a putter. During a 3 day event. According to this I’d have to have putter with a wedge for 16 holes. How does this protect anyone ?

> > >

> > > ...wait blade. your post has to be broken down -

> > >

> > > 1) IF your putter was broken by you and not exempt to the rules; yes, you would have to putt with something else for the remainder of THAT round.

> > > 2) the length of event does not matter; you could replace the club after 18 holes have been played ie, the closure of the round in which the club in question was broken/played.

> > > 3) it protects those in the field from you breakin a club that might not be working with the intent to put a different club in play that suits your needs.

> > >

> > > *this is the short version, but, the gist.

> >

> > So what had happened was.....

> >

> >

> >

> > I was using my old Cameron long plumbers neck Newport. Those are quite fragile in the neck of you’ve ever bent one for loft or lie. They bend easy.

> >

> > So I’m waking with wedge and putter plus towel in hand down a slope to the green on wet Bermuda rough. I slip , catch my footing and in one motion putter and wedge go flying up in the air. I try to catch putter and miss. But I get two fingers on it and subsequently flip it forward and back up. It hits toe down on a sprinkler head and the impact bends the neck and cracks it. If I bend it back it’s going to snap off. And it currently had around - 10 degrees of loft on it. So unusable. Playing partners see it alll. So we call an official and they go to my truck and bring me another putter. I putted with a wedge for 2 holes.

> >

> > As I understand it now I’d be screwed for the rest of the round. And nobody was protected. Only me penalized for an accident. .

>

> oh i completely understand you and yes, it sucks...but the way the rule is written, you COULD still have used it...so, it was your choice not to. while i understand that sucks and i wouldn't personally use it either - thems' the rules.

 

You may now not only use the bent club, but may attempt to repair it. From 4.1a:

 

For the rest of the round, the player may:

 

Continue to make strokes with the damaged club, or

 

Have the club repaired by restoring it as nearly as possible to its condition before the damage happened during the round or while play was stopped, while still using the original grip, shaft and clubhead. But in doing so:

 

The player must not unreasonably delay play (see Rule 5.6a), and

 

Any damage that existed before the round must not be repaired.

 

“Damaged during a round ” means when the club’s performance characteristics are changed because of any act during the round (including while play is stopped under Rule 5.7a), whether:

 

By the player (such as making a stroke or practice swing with the club, putting it in or taking it out of a golf bag, dropping or leaning on it, or throwing or abusing it), or

 

By any other person, outside influence or natural forces.

 

 

[gioguy21]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @gioguy21 said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @gioguy21 said:

> > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > Not a change for the better in my opinion. I’ve has this happen with a putter. During a 3 day event. According to this I’d have to have putter with a wedge for 16 holes. How does this protect anyone ?

> > > >

> > > > ...wait blade. your post has to be broken down -

> > > >

> > > > 1) IF your putter was broken by you and not exempt to the rules; yes, you would have to putt with something else for the remainder of THAT round.

> > > > 2) the length of event does not matter; you could replace the club after 18 holes have been played ie, the closure of the round in which the club in question was broken/played.

> > > > 3) it protects those in the field from you breakin a club that might not be working with the intent to put a different club in play that suits your needs.

> > > >

> > > > *this is the short version, but, the gist.

> > >

> > > So what had happened was.....

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > I was using my old Cameron long plumbers neck Newport. Those are quite fragile in the neck of you’ve ever bent one for loft or lie. They bend easy.

> > >

> > > So I’m waking with wedge and putter plus towel in hand down a slope to the green on wet Bermuda rough. I slip , catch my footing and in one motion putter and wedge go flying up in the air. I try to catch putter and miss. But I get two fingers on it and subsequently flip it forward and back up. It hits toe down on a sprinkler head and the impact bends the neck and cracks it. If I bend it back it’s going to snap off. And it currently had around - 10 degrees of loft on it. So unusable. Playing partners see it alll. So we call an official and they go to my truck and bring me another putter. I putted with a wedge for 2 holes.

> > >

> > > As I understand it now I’d be screwed for the rest of the round. And nobody was protected. Only me penalized for an accident. .

> >

> > oh i completely understand you and yes, it sucks...but the way the rule is written, you COULD still have used it...so, it was your choice not to. while i understand that sucks and i wouldn't personally use it either - thems' the rules.

>

> You may now not only use the bent club, but may attempt to repair it. From 4.1a:

>

> For the rest of the round, the player may:

>

> Continue to make strokes with the damaged club, or

>

> Have the club repaired by restoring it as nearly as possible to its condition before the damage happened during the round or while play was stopped, while still using the original grip, shaft and clubhead. But in doing so:

>

> The player must not unreasonably delay play (see Rule 5.6a), and

>

> Any damage that existed before the round must not be repaired.

>

> “Damaged during a round ” means when the club’s performance characteristics are changed because of any act during the round (including while play is stopped under Rule 5.7a), whether:

>

> By the player (such as making a stroke or practice swing with the club, putting it in or taking it out of a golf bag, dropping or leaning on it, or throwing or abusing it), or

>

> By any other person, outside influence or natural forces.

>

>

 

yes, this is as i understood the rule.

[bladehunter]

I guess I just don’t see the point or plus side for anybody now. And I don’t see a downside for the rule before.

 

Why would anyone try to use a club that’s been bent and then bent back. It’s going to be crooked no matter what you do.

[Sawgrass]

> @bladehunter said:

> I guess I just don’t see the point or plus side for anybody now. And I don’t see a downside for the rule before.

>

> Why would anyone try to use a club that’s been bent and then bent back. It’s going to be crooked no matter what you do.

 

You might prefer to use a putter you accidentally or delieberately bent in anger, whether you attempt to fix it or not, instead of putting with another club. I sure would.

(You might also "enjoy" not being DQed for later using a club which you damaged in anger (say by tossing it) but didn't realize was damaged, as might have befallen you in 2018.)

 

I see major improvements in the 2019 rules in this regard.

[Imp]

Sitting here on my desk is a reminder of when the tip broke off my shaft in a tourney. I tell everyone to take their driver (sometimes 3w) out of their bags before putting in their vehicle for this very reason. All the weight of the clubs, bag, and bag contents - and only thing between the bag and the trunk liner/wall is the driver absorbing all that force.

 

 

[davep043]

> @bladehunter said:

> I guess I just don’t see the point or plus side for anybody now. And I don’t see a downside for the rule before.

>

> Why would anyone try to use a club that’s been bent and then bent back. It’s going to be crooked no matter what you do.

 

> So I’m waking with wedge and putter plus towel in hand down a slope to the green on wet Bermuda rough. I slip , catch my footing and in one motion putter and wedge go flying up in the air. I try to catch putter and miss. But I get two fingers on it and subsequently flip it forward and back up. It hits toe down on a sprinkler head and the impact bends the neck and cracks it. If I bend it back it’s going to snap off. And it currently had around - 10 degrees of loft on it. So unusable. Playing partners see it alll. So we call an official and they go to my truck and bring me another putter. I putted with a wedge for 2 holes.

>

> As I understand it now I’d be screwed for the rest of the round. And nobody was protected. Only me penalized for an accident. .

 

Actually, @bladehunter , you shouldn't have been allowed to replace that putter. From the 2016 Rules, you are only allowed to replace a club if it is "unfit for play".

> Note: A club is unfit for play if it is substantially damaged, e.g., the shaft is dented, significantly bent or breaks into pieces; the clubhead becomes loose, detached or significantly deformed; or the grip becomes loose. A club is not unfit for play solely because the club’s lie or loft has been altered, or the clubhead is scratched.

Your putter had had the loft altered, perhaps it WAS unusable, but it didn't fit the definition of unfit for play.

[mshills]

I’d like to research decisions on what constitutes a club “unfit for play,” as what @bladehunter is describing rises to that level in my mind...

[cardoustie]

Reflecting, as an almost 52 year old with 37 years of tourney experience, I knew the older rules extremely well. This is what pooches me

Old dog and new tricks scenario

[bladehunter]

> @davep043 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > I guess I just don’t see the point or plus side for anybody now. And I don’t see a downside for the rule before.

> >

> > Why would anyone try to use a club that’s been bent and then bent back. It’s going to be crooked no matter what you do.

>

> > So I’m waking with wedge and putter plus towel in hand down a slope to the green on wet Bermuda rough. I slip , catch my footing and in one motion putter and wedge go flying up in the air. I try to catch putter and miss. But I get two fingers on it and subsequently flip it forward and back up. It hits toe down on a sprinkler head and the impact bends the neck and cracks it. If I bend it back it’s going to snap off. And it currently had around - 10 degrees of loft on it. So unusable. Playing partners see it alll. So we call an official and they go to my truck and bring me another putter. I putted with a wedge for 2 holes.

> >

> > As I understand it now I’d be screwed for the rest of the round. And nobody was protected. Only me penalized for an accident. .

>

> Actually, @bladehunter , you shouldn't have been allowed to replace that putter. From the 2016 Rules, you are only allowed to replace a club if it is "unfit for play".

> > Note: A club is unfit for play if it is substantially damaged, e.g., the shaft is dented, significantly bent or breaks into pieces; the clubhead becomes loose, detached or significantly deformed; or the grip becomes loose. A club is not unfit for play solely because the club’s lie or loft has been altered, or the clubhead is scratched.

> Your putter had had the loft altered, perhaps it WAS unusable, but it didn't fit the definition of unfit for play.

 

What is that definition. It was purely unfit to hit a ball with. It wasn’t just “ the loft is wrong “. It was that the neck had around a 33 degree angle bent in it. I’d have been striking putts off the topline Or a 2 foot reverse press.

 

I mean. I could play a driver with no head. Just may take me 300 strokes to move it 100 yards.

[bladehunter]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > I guess I just don’t see the point or plus side for anybody now. And I don’t see a downside for the rule before.

> >

> > Why would anyone try to use a club that’s been bent and then bent back. It’s going to be crooked no matter what you do.

>

> You might prefer to use a putter you accidentally or delieberately bent in anger, whether you attempt to fix it or not, instead of putting with another club. I sure would.

> (You might also "enjoy" not being DQed for later using a club which you damaged in anger (say by tossing it) but didn't realize was damaged, as might have befallen you in 2018.)

>

> I see major improvements in the 2019 rules in this regard.

 

 

I’d rather protect the mistake or accident guy than the broke it in anger guy. And I’ve been both Guys.

[Sawgrass]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > I guess I just don’t see the point or plus side for anybody now. And I don’t see a downside for the rule before.

> > >

> > > Why would anyone try to use a club that’s been bent and then bent back. It’s going to be crooked no matter what you do.

> >

> > You might prefer to use a putter you accidentally or delieberately bent in anger, whether you attempt to fix it or not, instead of putting with another club. I sure would.

> > (You might also "enjoy" not being DQed for later using a club which you damaged in anger (say by tossing it) but didn't realize was damaged, as might have befallen you in 2018.)

> >

> > I see major improvements in the 2019 rules in this regard.

>

>

> I’d rather protect the mistake or accident guy than the broke it in anger guy. And I’ve been both Guys.

 

Fortunately, you no longer have to make a potentially subjective call as to exactly what is a mistake vs. an angry demonstration.

 

You can thank the USGA and R&A for their contribution to your wellbeing.

[gioguy21]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > I guess I just don’t see the point or plus side for anybody now. And I don’t see a downside for the rule before.

> > > >

> > > > Why would anyone try to use a club that’s been bent and then bent back. It’s going to be crooked no matter what you do.

> > >

> > > You might prefer to use a putter you accidentally or delieberately bent in anger, whether you attempt to fix it or not, instead of putting with another club. I sure would.

> > > (You might also "enjoy" not being DQed for later using a club which you damaged in anger (say by tossing it) but didn't realize was damaged, as might have befallen you in 2018.)

> > >

> > > I see major improvements in the 2019 rules in this regard.

> >

> >

> > I’d rather protect the mistake or accident guy than the broke it in anger guy. And I’ve been both Guys.

>

> Fortunately, you no longer have to make a potentially subjective call as to exactly what is a mistake vs. an angry demonstration.

>

> You can thank the USGA and R&A for their contribution to your wellbeing.

 

this is what i was referring to above when i said they only really gave 2 ways to handle the rule; you broke it (by whatever means/intent) or it was broken by nature.

[bladehunter]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > I guess I just don’t see the point or plus side for anybody now. And I don’t see a downside for the rule before.

> > > >

> > > > Why would anyone try to use a club that’s been bent and then bent back. It’s going to be crooked no matter what you do.

> > >

> > > You might prefer to use a putter you accidentally or delieberately bent in anger, whether you attempt to fix it or not, instead of putting with another club. I sure would.

> > > (You might also "enjoy" not being DQed for later using a club which you damaged in anger (say by tossing it) but didn't realize was damaged, as might have befallen you in 2018.)

> > >

> > > I see major improvements in the 2019 rules in this regard.

> >

> >

> > I’d rather protect the mistake or accident guy than the broke it in anger guy. And I’ve been both Guys.

>

> Fortunately, you no longer have to make a potentially subjective call as to exactly what is a mistake vs. an angry demonstration.

>

> You can thank the USGA and R&A for their contribution to your wellbeing.

 

Lol. I’m reading that as sarcasm and laughing , no matter how you meant it.

[farmer]

In the case of a cracked head, a case could be made that the ball caused the damage. Clearly an outside influence.