S300 vs S400. Again.

What’s the final verdict here? Is s400 stiffer than s300 ( not the AMT model) or is it the same shaft just a little heavier?

Played s300 for the last 6 years. New irons came today with s400 and they feel slightly stiffer. Both are 3/4 long.

S400 always felt a little firmer to me than the S300, both in the irons and the woods.

I like it in the driver because it's more stable for my swing when I went after the golf ball.

A lot of the old timers like to have the S400 in the irons instead of the X100, X200.

Heavier in weight should feel firmer, the shaft would have just a bit thicker wall in construction. More stable and firmer should be the description.

Thanks Howard.Explains why dgs200 ss×1 is Perfect for me! Just a little lighter gets me in The Zone!Much appreciated!

> @"Howard Jones" said:

> > @ryan983 said:

> > What’s the final verdict here? Is s400 stiffer than s300 ( not the AMT model) or is it the same shaft just a little heavier?

> >

> > Played s300 for the last 6 years. New irons came today with s400 and they feel slightly stiffer. Both are 3/4 long.

>

> For STEEL shafts, WEIGHT = FLEX when the design is the same, so more weight = thicker shaft walls = stronger flex.

> For DG 0.89 grams is 1 CPM average, but we count it as 1 CPM pr gram, so if we compare "official specs" then we have 2 grams difference, equal to 2 CPM difference.

>

> DG is NOT flex, but weight matched. The original DYNAMIC could vary just like we see SUB FLEXES today, so a set DYNAMIC (not GOLD sorted like before 1980) could be a set that has "some S200, some S300 and some S400" shafts in the set, but we never knew what shafts that was before we put them on the scale.

>

> After 1980, TT introduced the GOLD sorting standard with a tolerance of plus/minus 1.5 Grams

> For S series, they was all meant to be "S300", but some shafts became to light, others too heavy, so they get sorted like this.

>

> S200 = Below 128.5 grams

> S300 = 128.5 - 131.5 Grams

> S400 = Above 131.5 grams

>

> Later, TT introduced TOUR ISSUE weight sorting, with a tolerance of only plus minus 0.5 Grams, that gives us 2 models of S400

>

> S400 Tour Issue = 131.5 - 132.5 grams or "the light side" of S400

> S400 GOLD = 131.5 - 134.5 grams, but since most "light S400" is sorted out to be TOUR ISSUE, expect the GOLD model to have more weight and a tad stronger flex, but some shafts in that set could be to the lighter side, but if we look for a "heavy wedge" shaft, we find it in the GOLD bin for half the price of TOUR ISSUE.

>

> So the answer is YES, S400 is stronger than S300, and depending on actual weight 2-3 CPM stronger as average, and if the S300 is to the lighter side, and S400 to the heavy, we will see flex differences equal to Hard stepping once from S300 to S400.

>

> I had a few customers who wanted "S300 Tour Issue", who officially aint made, but if we take a set S400 Tour Issue, and soft step them once, we loose average about 1.7-1.8 grams so weight drops to S300, but we dont butt cut the 0.5" inch extra, we tip trim them 3-4/8", and we have a set "S300 Tour issue" with the weight and anatomy like S300, but a tighter weight and flex for all than a standard GOLD sorted S300.

>

So then what about the DG 105's in S300, R300 etc?

There is no SUB flexes on DG 105, but weight is still a factor for flex between 2 IDENTICAL shafts like it is for the classic, but DG 105 R and DG 105 S, is NOT the same shaft like the classic DG S200, S300 and S400 is where the sorting is done due to tolerances in production.

DG 105 is designed using the same "blank" where S has 2.0" inch shorter tip and 2.0" longer butt, thats how flex is altered in that model, while the X has a different design and step pattern.

https://www.truetemper.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/DG_105_combined-1.pdf

Is it a noticeable difference? Missed out on irons with s400 (wanted to try) but got the same set with s300 and feel I might be missing out lol

> @RamminMopar said:

> Is it a noticeable difference? Missed out on irons with s400 (wanted to try) but got the same set with s300 and feel I might be missing out lol

Some players want notice anything, others will, and since you play DG S300, try to add 2 grams lead tape on the middle of the shaft, at least you get to feel the weight difference, while flex is not a parameter we can simulate, we can only make it softer by adding head weight, but head weight change alone will often "cover up" what happens to flex and be the dominant factor for feedback, so its not a easy task to simulate a flex difference without actually making the change.

It’s noticeable to me but I’ve been playing the same set of irons for 6 years and hit a lot of balls. Based on distance, I could play X100 but I don’t load it hard enough. After a few days, I’m starting to like the s400. I can’t feel any change in weight but it does feel a bit stiffer.

> @RamminMopar said:

> Is it a noticeable difference? Missed out on irons with s400 (wanted to try) but got the same set with s300 and feel I might be missing out lol

I have 588 cb with x100 and 7-p are money but 4-6 get a little heavy and harder to load consistently. So I should like the long irons better on s300 but the short irons sometimes feel light.

You cannot feel the difference between a 130 gram shaft (s300) and a 132 gram shaft (s400).

You cannot feel the difference between a 130 gram shaft (s300) and and 132 gram shaft (s400).

> @dokex said:

> You cannot feel the difference between a 130 gram shaft (s300) and and 132 gram shaft (s400).

Sure you can, YOU just might not be able to.

> @dokex said:

> You cannot feel the difference between a 130 gram shaft (s300) and and 132 gram shaft (s400).

If there's one thing to learn, it's that there are always people who are extremely sensitive to minute changes in weight, flex, length, grip size, etc. Most can't, but a few absolutely can. Along those lines, some people can absolutely tell the difference between S300 and S400.

> @rt_charger said:

> > @dokex said:

> > You cannot feel the difference between a 130 gram shaft (s300) and and 132 gram shaft (s400).

>

> Sure you can, YOU just might not be able to.

I agree, I absolutely could feel the difference.... The s400 were definitely more hefty feeling than the S300 and X100 to me... I never believed it either, thats why I pulled the trigger on a set of S400s... installed them and was not a fan at all.

Here is some numbers we can use to see this from different angles, here as Shaft Weight as grams, expressed as MOI Points, converted to Head weight difference.

DGS 200 wedgeflex to DG S400 is average 5 grams up in uncut shaft weight, and for a standard GW, SW and LW it goes from 10.1 to 9.9 MOI Points

TIP WGT. to grams shows us that 1 gram as added head weight is equal to 7.3 to 7.0 MOI points on this wedges.

That gives us 10 MOI points /average 7.15 MOI points pr gram = Going from S200 to S400 in Wedge is uqual to adding 1.39 grams head weight as MOI change

Going S300 to S400 is about half of this as weight change, meaning the change as actual MOI, going from S300 to S400 is the same resiatance change we would get from 0.6 grams added head weight.

Expressed as SW values, its average 2.34 grams pr SWP on wedges

S200 to S400 was equal to 1.39 grams head weight / 2.32 grams pr SWP = 0,59 SWP

D5 would become D5.59

S300 to S400 was equal to 0.6 grams head weight /2.32 grams SWP = 0,26

D5 would become D5.26

The charts in full size is here including grams to SWP.

https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1793041/adding-counterweight-vs-counterweighted-shafts-vs-sw-values-or-actual-moi

In a properly conducted blind test, no one could differentiate between 2 grams of shaft weight.

> @dokex said:

> In a properly conducted blind test, no one could differentiate between 2 grams of shaft weight.

Agree..unless they are S400 TI shafts (for obvious reasons.)

From personal experience I hit the S400 in SW at a lower trajectory than the S300 and X100, for control shots this is desirable. Even young pros (like JT, Brooks K) like S400 in their scoring clubs. I suggest you try S400 and see if its suits your requirements. Personally, I don't understand the aporia logic of people obsessing over iron shafts and then purchasing off the rack scoring clubs i.e. wedges.

On 9/23/2019 at 11:10 PM, Howard_Jones said:

After 1980, TT introduced the GOLD sorting standard with a tolerance of plus/minus 1.5 Grams

For S series, they was all meant to be "S300", but some shafts became to light, others too heavy, so they get sorted like this.

 

S200 = Below 128.5 grams

S300 = 128.5 - 131.5 Grams

S400 = Above 131.5 grams

 

Later, TT introduced TOUR ISSUE weight sorting, with a tolerance of only plus minus 0.5 Grams, that gives us 2 models of S400

 

S400 Tour Issue = 131.5 - 132.5 grams or "the light side" of S400

S400 GOLD = 131.5 - 134.5 grams, but since most "light S400" is sorted out to be TOUR ISSUE, expect the GOLD model to have more weight and a tad stronger flex, but some shafts in that set could be to the lighter side, but if we look for a "heavy wedge" shaft, we find it in the GOLD bin for half the price of TOUR ISSUE.

Like most people here, I'm very familiar the X100 irons + S400 wedges setup that is super common with tour pros and others. I'm wondering what a similar setup would look like for someone playing S300 in their irons? Maybe S400 7-iron or 8-iron shafts "soft-stepped" into the wedges? Looking for a little heavier but softer than the S300 it isn't quite as clear. 

4 minutes ago, ktyler2 said:

 

Like most people here, I'm very familiar the X100 irons + S400 wedges setup that is super common with tour pros and others. I'm wondering what a similar setup would look like for someone playing S300 in their irons? Maybe S400 7-iron or 8-iron shafts "soft-stepped" into the wedges? Looking for a little heavier but softer than the S300 it isn't quite as clear. 

 

S300 for iron set thru PW, S400 for GW, SW, LW.

Just now, Fairway14 said:

S300 for iron set thru PW, S400 for GW, SW, LW.

My understanding is that S400 is stiffer than S300 which would make your recommendation stiffer in the GW, SW, LW when I’m actually hoping for softer. Am I missing something?

10 minutes ago, ktyler2 said:

My understanding is that S400 is stiffer than S300 which would make your recommendation stiffer in the GW, SW, LW when I’m actually hoping for softer. Am I missing something?

If you have not played S400 (in a wedge) I suggest first doing so. If it plays too firm for you you can try soft stepping S400, but my guess is that the soft stepped S400 would play like an S300.

I have S300 in my irons , 48* and 52* wedges. In my 56* and 64* wedges I have S400 and find the extra stiffness is helpful for distance control. 

15 minutes ago, ktyler2 said:

 

Like most people here, I'm very familiar the X100 irons + S400 wedges setup that is super common with tour pros and others. I'm wondering what a similar setup would look like for someone playing S300 in their irons? Maybe S400 7-iron or 8-iron shafts "soft-stepped" into the wedges? Looking for a little heavier but softer than the S300 it isn't quite as clear. 

 

Soft-stepping takes down flex, but also WEIGHT equal to 0.5" inch of shaft weight pr step.
#9 DG S400 is 132 grams / 37.00" or 3.56 grams pr inch, so if we use a DG S400 #7 shaft, we loose 3.56 grams, and no longer have a 132 grams shaft, but one thats 128.5 or in the border between  S200 #9. and S300 #9.

However, if you dont mind lead tape, add lead tape "head to grip direction" distributed both ways from the middle of the shaft on the underside, so you dont see it at address. This shaft weight tuning SHOULD have been more common, since we hardly ever can get everything as we want it from a shaft as it is, and adding weight this way is very easy.

The other way, if you find a R400 #9, you can tip trim it to stiffen it up, and by that, keep weight as high as possible, (since no soft stepping is needed to soften it) but if you go beyond 3/8" tip trim, you might need a ream job to 0.370 to get full insert. R400 has a official wgt of 131 grams, but could be up to 132.5 grams. (not easy to find, but some has them)

26 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:

Soft-stepping takes down flex, but also WEIGHT equal to 0.5" inch of shaft weight pr step.
#9 DG S400 is 132 grams / 37.00" or 3.56 grams pr inch, so if we use a DG S400 #7 shaft, we loose 3.56 grams, and no longer have a 132 grams shaft, but one thats 128.5 or in the border between  S200 #9. and S300 #9.

However, if you dont mind lead tape, add lead tape "head to grip direction" distributed both ways from the middle of the shaft on the underside, so you dont see it at address. This shaft weight tuning SHOULD have been more common, since we hardly ever can get everything as we want it from a shaft as it is, and adding weight this way is very easy.

The other way, if you find a R400 #9, you can tip trim it to stiffen it up, and by that, keep weight as high as possible, (since no soft stepping is needed to soften it) but if you go beyond 3/8" tip trim, you might need a ream job to 0.370 to get full insert. R400 has a official wgt of 131 grams, but could be up to 132.5 grams. (not easy to find, but some has them)

This makes sense. Upon quick search I don't see any R400 #9 for sale with any online retailers or even resellers like eBay. I do like the idea of the DG S400 (probably non-tour issue) 7-iron with some tape down the middle. I've played DG S400 tour issue #9 in my wedges and they do still feel quite stiff to me so it will be interesting to experience the difference with the soft-stepping and added weight. 

Just to bring up an old thread. 

I'm getting new wedges and I'm unsure where to go.

I have s400's straight in at the moment in 56-60, have also played s200 in the same lofts. I currently use x1 in PW and GW which I love, but I really like the softer feel sX00 gives me in the higher lofts.

s200 is definitely too soft on full swings, and nice for partial/greenside, while s400 is perfect on full swings, and can be weighty and lead to dodgy contact greenside.

Was thinking of tip trimming for feel (and maybe bring flight down a hair), but wondering whether I should go s4 or s3.