Fine line between rotating your arms through the ball and flipping

Yes I know they are different but as someone that has gone through extremes of flipping and holding off the club I've recently been holding off/ open the face at impact causing delofting. Working with the pro he had me do half swings where my forearms are rotating back and through the ball. Also working with a baseball swing in warmups to feel the correct rotation and swoosh through the ball (also work with the Tour Striker ball). Unfortunately it can also result in leaving the face open, not so much flipping, and loss of distance. Just curious is anyone has any other drills to help with getting face square at impact and ultimately improving my distance (irons especially).

> @jimb6golf said:

> Yes I know they are different but as someone that has gone through extremes of flipping and holding off the club I've recently been holding off/ open the face at impact causing delofting. Working with the pro he had me do half swings where my forearms are rotating back and through the ball. Also working with a baseball swing in warmups to feel the correct rotation and swoosh through the ball (also work with the Tour Striker ball). Unfortunately it can also result in leaving the face open, not so much flipping, and loss of distance. Just curious is anyone has any other drills to help with getting face square at impact and ultimately improving my distance (irons especially).

In my case I use DJ starting move to feel that the face is squared and after that I start my backswing. Then I just imagine that I must go back to this position in the downswing.

You can rotate the arms as much as you need to so long as your hands are past the gall at impact. To get your hands past the ball at impact speed up your arms.

Steve

The problem I seem to have is the more I get my hands in front of the ball the more open the face becomes. I don't seem to have the forearm rotation or wrist rotation in sync no matter what I do. Still trying to get the slow motion swings to help with 'learning' the required moves but it's not coming along easily. Hard to defeat 30+ years of doing it wrong I guess.

> @jimb6golf said:

> The problem I seem to have is the more I get my hands in front of the ball the more open the face becomes. I don't seem to have the forearm rotation or wrist rotation in sync no matter what I do. Still trying to get the slow motion swings to help with 'learning' the required moves but it's not coming along easily. Hard to defeat 30+ years of doing it wrong I guess.

No doubt that moving the hands forward tends to open the club face. Forearm rotation is what gets the face square when the hands are forward. Two suggestions for you:

1 The hands only need to be forward enough to let you hit the ball before the ground. More forward than that is not better.

2. Don't save all of the forearm rotation for the last instant. Feel your forearm rotating gradually toward square from the beginning of the forward swing.

Steve

> @jimb6golf said:

> Yes I know they are different but as someone that has gone through extremes of flipping and holding off the club I've recently been holding off/ open the face at impact causing delofting. Working with the pro he had me do half swings where my forearms are rotating back and through the ball. Also working with a baseball swing in warmups to feel the correct rotation and swoosh through the ball (also work with the Tour Striker ball). Unfortunately it can also result in leaving the face open, not so much flipping, and loss of distance. Just curious is anyone has any other drills to help with getting face square at impact and ultimately improving my distance (irons especially).

You don't need or want a lot of forearm rotation through the ball. For optimal club face to ball contact see if this makes sense. Once the shaft gets below your hands in the downswing the top of the shaft should face the sky and maintain this orientation until the shaft gets above your hands on the other side.

> @Zitlow said:

> > @jimb6golf said:

> > Yes I know they are different but as someone that has gone through extremes of flipping and holding off the club I've recently been holding off/ open the face at impact causing delofting. Working with the pro he had me do half swings where my forearms are rotating back and through the ball. Also working with a baseball swing in warmups to feel the correct rotation and swoosh through the ball (also work with the Tour Striker ball). Unfortunately it can also result in leaving the face open, not so much flipping, and loss of distance. Just curious is anyone has any other drills to help with getting face square at impact and ultimately improving my distance (irons especially).

>

> You don't need or want a lot of forearm rotation through the ball. For optimal club face to ball contact see if this makes sense. Once the shaft gets below your hands in the downswing the top of the shaft should face the sky and maintain this orientation until the shaft gets above your hands on the other side.

>

>

And you can do that with 180* of arm rotation. There is a lot of arm rotation through impact.

> @Zitlow said:

> > @jimb6golf said:

> > Yes I know they are different but as someone that has gone through extremes of flipping and holding off the club I've recently been holding off/ open the face at impact causing delofting. Working with the pro he had me do half swings where my forearms are rotating back and through the ball. Also working with a baseball swing in warmups to feel the correct rotation and swoosh through the ball (also work with the Tour Striker ball). Unfortunately it can also result in leaving the face open, not so much flipping, and loss of distance. Just curious is anyone has any other drills to help with getting face square at impact and ultimately improving my distance (irons especially).

>

> You don't need or want a lot of forearm rotation through the ball. For optimal club face to ball contact see if this makes sense. Once the shaft gets below your hands in the downswing the top of the shaft should face the sky and maintain this orientation until the shaft gets above your hands on the other side.

>

>

For those of us following along, what is "the top of the shaft and how can it "face" anything?

> @KMeloney said:

> > @Zitlow said:

> > > @jimb6golf said:

> > > Yes I know they are different but as someone that has gone through extremes of flipping and holding off the club I've recently been holding off/ open the face at impact causing delofting. Working with the pro he had me do half swings where my forearms are rotating back and through the ball. Also working with a baseball swing in warmups to feel the correct rotation and swoosh through the ball (also work with the Tour Striker ball). Unfortunately it can also result in leaving the face open, not so much flipping, and loss of distance. Just curious is anyone has any other drills to help with getting face square at impact and ultimately improving my distance (irons especially).

> >

> > You don't need or want a lot of forearm rotation through the ball. For optimal club face to ball contact see if this makes sense. Once the shaft gets below your hands in the downswing the top of the shaft should face the sky and maintain this orientation until the shaft gets above your hands on the other side.

> >

> >

>

> For those of us following along, what is "the top of the shaft and how can it "face" anything?

At address look down at the club, you're looking at the top of the shaft.

So, keep the toe up?

> @KMeloney said:

> So, keep the toe up?

The toe stays in the same orientation to the shaft through impact as it was at address. If he rolled his hands he'd twist the shaft tipping the left wing towards the ground and crash the plane.

Good swings have a ton of rotation in the lead arm - here's one example from Cheetham where the lead forearm goes from around 43* pronated to 85* supinated in the follow through - 128* of rotation - and at impact the player has rotated the lead forearm to around 21* supinated so 60+* of rotation by impact. Ams with poor swings still supinate but they typically have less than 100* and from Tyler Ferrell's data are more in the 60*-80* range (max supination at follow through and not total) - has to do with the way they release - shoulder release, chicken wing, you name it. But they still rotate the forearms.


More examples of both pros and ams - with 3D data as well as video.

> @Zitlow said:

> > @KMeloney said:

> > So, keep the toe up?

>

> The toe stays in the same orientation to the shaft through impact as it was at address. If he rolled his hands he'd twist the shaft tipping the left wing towards the ground and crash the plane.

>

>

>

> @Zitlow said:

> > @KMeloney said:

> > So, keep the toe up?

>

> The toe stays in the same orientation to the shaft through impact as it was at address. If he rolled his hands he'd twist the shaft tipping the left wing towards the ground and crash the plane.

>

>

>

Rotating the club by rotating the arms and twisting the shaft are two different things. All good players significantly rotate their lead arm into and through impact.

Would be good for you to understand the way that the angle between left arm and shaft affects face rotation and amount of clubhead travel

> @iteachgolf said:

> > @Zitlow said:

> > > @KMeloney said:

> > > So, keep the toe up?

> >

> > The toe stays in the same orientation to the shaft through impact as it was at address. If he rolled his hands he'd twist the shaft tipping the left wing towards the ground and crash the plane.

> >

> >

> >

>

> > @Zitlow said:

> > > @KMeloney said:

> > > So, keep the toe up?

> >

> > The toe stays in the same orientation to the shaft through impact as it was at address. If he rolled his hands he'd twist the shaft tipping the left wing towards the ground and crash the plane.

> >

> >

> >

>

> Rotating the club by rotating the arms and twisting the shaft are two different things. All good players significantly rotate their lead arm into and through impact.

>

> Would be good for you to understand the way that the angle between left arm and shaft affects face rotation and amount of clubhead travel

I suggest you go back and read the OP's initial post where he said he's having face issues through the ball and how he's trying to fix the issue.

This isn't that complicated, in the video the top of the wings represent the top of the shaft. When the club head is above his hands the wings are facing Austin. Between P6 and P8 the wings are facing skyward. All you have to do is maintain this skyward orientation of the wings through the ball for a square club face. The forearm rotation takes care of itself. You bring in a lot of variables as the OP found out when you try to micro manage your forearm rotation in a golf swing.

> @Zitlow said:

> > @iteachgolf said:

> > > @Zitlow said:

> > > > @KMeloney said:

> > > > So, keep the toe up?

> > >

> > > The toe stays in the same orientation to the shaft through impact as it was at address. If he rolled his hands he'd twist the shaft tipping the left wing towards the ground and crash the plane.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > > @Zitlow said:

> > > > @KMeloney said:

> > > > So, keep the toe up?

> > >

> > > The toe stays in the same orientation to the shaft through impact as it was at address. If he rolled his hands he'd twist the shaft tipping the left wing towards the ground and crash the plane.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Rotating the club by rotating the arms and twisting the shaft are two different things. All good players significantly rotate their lead arm into and through impact.

> >

> > Would be good for you to understand the way that the angle between left arm and shaft affects face rotation and amount of clubhead travel

>

> I suggest you go back and read the OP's initial post where he said he's having face issues through the ball and how he's trying to fix the issue.

>

> This isn't that complicated, in the video the top of the wings represent the top of the shaft. When the club head is above his hands the wings are facing Austin. Between P6 and P8 the wings are facing skyward. All you have to do is maintain this skyward orientation of the wings through the ball for a square club face. The forearm rotation takes care of itself. You bring in a lot of variables as the OP found out when you try to micro manage your forearm rotation in a golf swing.

>

What are your golf teaching credentials, if you don't mind me asking?

Here is a drill for the OP. Important to unhinge to allow for forearm supination - when the lead wrist is in ud the lead forearm can easily supinate and if you take advantage of the “passive” torque talked about by sasho and como then this requires no conscious physical effort. Holding the hinge, ie lag, too long shortens the distance from club head to ball and typically leads to the club head kicking out too early and then a rapid unhinge/forearm roll , ie the flip roll, to square the face or a trail shoulder move to swing out to in to square the face, resulting in pulls or wipe slices. Lots of other stuff can be going on but this is a simplified view.

Martin Chuck video does good job of demonstrating a good release. And yes one needs to have the face closed via motorcycle at some point prior to release ( as described in the attached vigor no video) as well as a shallowing move in transition.

> @Zitlow said:

> > @iteachgolf said:

> > > @Zitlow said:

> > > > @KMeloney said:

> > > > So, keep the toe up?

> > >

> > > The toe stays in the same orientation to the shaft through impact as it was at address. If he rolled his hands he'd twist the shaft tipping the left wing towards the ground and crash the plane.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > > @Zitlow said:

> > > > @KMeloney said:

> > > > So, keep the toe up?

> > >

> > > The toe stays in the same orientation to the shaft through impact as it was at address. If he rolled his hands he'd twist the shaft tipping the left wing towards the ground and crash the plane.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Rotating the club by rotating the arms and twisting the shaft are two different things. All good players significantly rotate their lead arm into and through impact.

> >

> > Would be good for you to understand the way that the angle between left arm and shaft affects face rotation and amount of clubhead travel

>

> I suggest you go back and read the OP's initial post where he said he's having face issues through the ball and how he's trying to fix the issue.

>

> This isn't that complicated, in the video the top of the wings represent the top of the shaft. When the club head is above his hands the wings are facing Austin. Between P6 and P8 the wings are facing skyward. All you have to do is maintain this skyward orientation of the wings through the ball for a square club face. The forearm rotation takes care of itself. You bring in a lot of variables as the OP found out when you try to micro manage your forearm rotation in a golf swing.

>

Who are you replying to? Certainly can’t be me as none of that has anything to do with what I said. Who said anything about micro managing anything? I never even said it should be conscious.

Between p6 and p8 there is 125+ degrees of arm rotation. I was replying to your comment about arm rotation twisting the shaft. In your airplane video there is 125+ degrees of arm rotation where you imply there is none. Again I suggest you learn how PA3 works and it’s affect clubhead travel and face rotation. Obviously you still don’t understand

Does anyone else have difficulty 'motorcycling' in the downswing? I spend all my time trying to get on plane, keep the clubhead outside the hands, etc. and then adding the 'motorcylcing' to help getting the clubface square is difficult. I'm sure I'm thinking too much in my golf swing but just can't help it I guess. Bottom line though is the faster I swing the less I can square up the face at impact.

Maybe start by strengthening your grip. If your goal is to reduce face rotation through the hitting zone (an admirable goal) you’ll need a stronger grip. Watch Xach Johnson’s swing. He uses a very strong grip which is necessary because he has minimal face rotation through and beyond the hitting zone. There is a Kostis video on YouTube that demonstrates this very well.

> @jimb6golf said:

> Does anyone else have difficulty 'motorcycling' in the downswing? I spend all my time trying to get on plane, keep the clubhead outside the hands, etc. and then adding the 'motorcylcing' to help getting the clubface square is difficult. I'm sure I'm thinking too much in my golf swing but just can't help it I guess. Bottom line though is the faster I swing the less I can square up the face at impact.

Very easy to pull the handle down trying to swing harder, which typically cups the left wrist and opens the face

> @Krt22 said:

> > @jimb6golf said:

> > Does anyone else have difficulty 'motorcycling' in the downswing? I spend all my time trying to get on plane, keep the clubhead outside the hands, etc. and then adding the 'motorcylcing' to help getting the clubface square is difficult. I'm sure I'm thinking too much in my golf swing but just can't help it I guess. Bottom line though is the faster I swing the less I can square up the face at impact.

>

> Very easy to pull the handle down trying to swing harder, which typically cups the left wrist and opens the face

Sounds like what I may be doing as I have a tendency to 'slam' the club into the ground with little follow through at times. Almost feels like I should be 'reaching' out to get back to the ball in order to create the better rotation in my swing. Funny how you have to exaggerate the swing in order to make it correct.

> @jimb6golf said:

> > @Krt22 said:

> > > @jimb6golf said:

> > > Does anyone else have difficulty 'motorcycling' in the downswing? I spend all my time trying to get on plane, keep the clubhead outside the hands, etc. and then adding the 'motorcylcing' to help getting the clubface square is difficult. I'm sure I'm thinking too much in my golf swing but just can't help it I guess. Bottom line though is the faster I swing the less I can square up the face at impact.

> >

> > Very easy to pull the handle down trying to swing harder, which typically cups the left wrist and opens the face

>

> Sounds like what I may be doing as I have a tendency to 'slam' the club into the ground with little follow through at times. Almost feels like I should be 'reaching' out to get back to the ball in order to create the better rotation in my swing. Funny how you have to exaggerate the swing in order to make it correct.

Hands work away from the trail shoulder in transition/downswing. Means extending the trail elbow. Do this rather than pulling down and motorcycle is easier to do. Counterintuitive move for lots of folks - like throwing the club behind you to start the downswing.

https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1102099/some-ideas-about-the-trail-arm-straightening/p1