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Swing weight factors in relation to parts

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  • Stuart_GStuart_G New HampshireMembers  25573WRX Points: 1,950Posts: 25,573 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Oct 3, 2019 #512

    On -, @nikeV10blade said:

    I am extending my set 3/8 of an inch. I know 1/2 in is 3 SWP, so 3/8 should be 2 SWP. I'm going from grips that are 46.5 grams to 52 grams to help offset the swing weight. How many grams of lead tape would I need to slap on the butt end under the grip to get back close to original weight?

    Despite what a swing weight scale might tell you, the swing weight concept was never designed or intended to manage butt side or grip weight changes. Adding weight to the butt does not reduce the influence of the extra length or the MOI of the club. Instead you should find ways to remove weight from the head.

    Or just don't extend the full set. Instead only extend the shortest clubs (wedges and maybe 9i), where the extra SW is less likely to be a problem and those are the only clubs where the extra 3/8" will likely make any actual difference.

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  • TreyMacTreyMac Toronto, CanadaMembers  76WRX Points: 24Handicap: 15Posts: 76 Fairways
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    If I was fitted to a club using a grip that had a weight of 53 grams but I installed a grip that weighs 66 grams, how will this affect the swing weight of the club? I feel that it is lighter than what I was fitted for and generally feels off.

    Any help is appreciated, thanks!

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  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11625WRX Points: 2,293Posts: 11,625 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @TreyMac said:

    If I was fitted to a club using a grip that had a weight of 53 grams but I installed a grip that weighs 66 grams, how will this affect the swing weight of the club? I feel that it is lighter than what I was fitted for and generally feels off.

    Any help is appreciated, thanks!

    Head weight was not reduced, even if the SW scale say so. Actual resistance or MOI goes up with higher total weight.
    If you feel head weight is to low, add head weight, and never mind SW values.

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  • MountainGoatMountainGoat Mid-MarylandUnregistered  2810WRX Points: 1,396Posts: 2,810 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Nov 18, 2019 #515

    On -, @TreyMac said:

    If I was fitted to a club using a grip that had a weight of 53 grams but I installed a grip that weighs 66 grams, how will this affect the swing weight of the club? I feel that it is lighter than what I was fitted for and generally feels off.

    Any help is appreciated, thanks!

    It will dramatically affect the SW of the club and, hence, its feel. MOI advocates will claim that grip changes don't affect club performance. I'm an MOI advocate, but I'm not so sure about that claim. I'm working on a set right now that swings well with a 66g grip but is unhitable with a 50g grip. As far as heavier grips are concerned, it's not just the weight, it's the placement of the weight. With a Plus 4 style grip, for example, more of the weight is under the right hand, and that placement affects both SW and overall club feel. I think grip size and weight are more complex issues than often appreciated.

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  • Stuart_GStuart_G New HampshireMembers  25573WRX Points: 1,950Posts: 25,573 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Nov 18, 2019 #516

    On -, @MountainGoat said:

    MOI advocates will claim that grip changes don't affect club performance.

    Not true at all, at least not for those that know what they are talking about. They say that it will have a negligible effect on the MOI. It still can have an effect on the total weight of the club as well as the balance. For some that can effect the performance, for others it might not. More typically it wont but you never know with any particular individual until they give it a try.

    The main (and more important) point is not that it won't effect performance, but rather that the swing weight scale is not the right tool to judge how the feel might change nor should it be used to find out what, if any compensation might be needed. That can only be done effectively through some trial and error testing.

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  • MountainGoatMountainGoat Mid-MarylandUnregistered  2810WRX Points: 1,396Posts: 2,810 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @Stuart_G said:

    On -, @MountainGoat said:

    MOI advocates will claim that grip changes don't affect club performance.

    Not true at all, at least not for those that know what they are talking about. They say that it will have a negligible effect on the MOI. It still can have an effect on the total weight of the club as well as the balance. For some that can effect the performance, for others it might not. More typically it wont but you never know with any particular individual until they give it a try.

    The main (and more important) point is not that it won't effect performance, but rather that the swing weight scale is not the right tool to judge how the feel might change nor should it be used to find out what, if any compensation might be needed. That can only be done effectively through some trial and error testing.

    We actually agree. Die hard MOI advocates will claim that grip changes don't affect club performance, because they have a negligible effect on MOI. As I said in the rest of my post, I don't agree with that assessment, and I cited my recent case of a set of irons that were good with one grip but unhitable with another in spite of the fact that the MOIs remained unchanged. I've been an MOI advocate for 15 years and built a mini-business making MOI-matched irons. But lately, I'm not at all convinced that it's a reliable way of matching a set. I'm doing a set right now with AMT shafts that tighten the MOI profile of a set of irons built to the same SW. I'm not impressed. There's too much other stuff going on.

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  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11625WRX Points: 2,293Posts: 11,625 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @MountainGoat said:

    On -, @Stuart_G said:

    On -, @MountainGoat said:

    MOI advocates will claim that grip changes don't affect club performance.

    Not true at all, at least not for those that know what they are talking about. They say that it will have a negligible effect on the MOI. It still can have an effect on the total weight of the club as well as the balance. For some that can effect the performance, for others it might not. More typically it wont but you never know with any particular individual until they give it a try.

    The main (and more important) point is not that it won't effect performance, but rather that the swing weight scale is not the right tool to judge how the feel might change nor should it be used to find out what, if any compensation might be needed. That can only be done effectively through some trial and error testing.

    We actually agree. Die hard MOI advocates will claim that grip changes don't affect club performance, because they have a negligible effect on MOI. As I said in the rest of my post, I don't agree with that assessment, and I cited my recent case of a set of irons that were good with one grip but unhitable with another in spite of the fact that the MOIs remained unchanged. I've been an MOI advocate for 15 years and built a mini-business making MOI-matched irons. But lately, I'm not at all convinced that it's a reliable way of matching a set. I'm doing a set right now with AMT shafts that tighten the MOI profile of a set of irons built to the same SW. I'm not impressed. There's too much other stuff going on.

    Hi

    On -, @MountainGoat said:

    On -, @Stuart_G said:

    On -, @MountainGoat said:

    MOI advocates will claim that grip changes don't affect club performance.

    Not true at all, at least not for those that know what they are talking about. They say that it will have a negligible effect on the MOI. It still can have an effect on the total weight of the club as well as the balance. For some that can effect the performance, for others it might not. More typically it wont but you never know with any particular individual until they give it a try.

    The main (and more important) point is not that it won't effect performance, but rather that the swing weight scale is not the right tool to judge how the feel might change nor should it be used to find out what, if any compensation might be needed. That can only be done effectively through some trial and error testing.

    We actually agree. Die hard MOI advocates will claim that grip changes don't affect club performance, because they have a negligible effect on MOI. As I said in the rest of my post, I don't agree with that assessment, and I cited my recent case of a set of irons that were good with one grip but unhitable with another in spite of the fact that the MOIs remained unchanged. I've been an MOI advocate for 15 years and built a mini-business making MOI-matched irons. But lately, I'm not at all convinced that it's a reliable way of matching a set. I'm doing a set right now with AMT shafts that tighten the MOI profile of a set of irons built to the same SW. I'm not impressed. There's too much other stuff going on.

    Higher grip weight = higher MOI value, but we did move the clubs balance point closer to the grip, so its for good reasons the grip we wants to play should be a part of the fitting from the start.

    AMT is a animal of its own, the shafts themselves is MOI matched, so it should be rather easy to make them to the same MOI as a set, still with 4/8" between the clubs.
    The numbers ive done with AMT white and 3/8" looks very strange to me (very low head weight progression), so im not so sure this shafts is a good starting point for anything but 4/8" sets.

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  • Stuart_GStuart_G New HampshireMembers  25573WRX Points: 1,950Posts: 25,573 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @MountainGoat said:

    Die hard MOI advocates will claim that grip changes don't affect club performance, because they have a negligible effect on MOI.

    Of all the MOI advocates that I've come across here in the forum, none have made that claim in all the years I've spent here on the forum. Just some of the ignorant newcomers to the MOI concept - but those don't qualify as 'die hard' advocates. And of course, if they aren't members here, they can't really qualify as 'die hard' either ;-)

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  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11625WRX Points: 2,293Posts: 11,625 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Feb 21, 2020 8:04am #520


    Thats a never ending debate, but the issue is really the understanding of the SW scale, it does not give the right picture when we mess with grip weight, and if we think it does, the risk is large that we ends up with a TOTAL weight over and beyond the players tolerance, and added head weight as compensation WILL ADD MOI, so both Total and MOI becomes to high.

    Like mentioned, when we use MOI and point of rotation is set to the butt end, a higher grip weight adds a few MOI points and follow total weight, but the actual point of rotation of the club is about 4 inch down from the butt, and thats where most grips has its balance point, so we should see it as a contribution to total weight to start with. Deeper down we can look at MBI or MOI Balance Index, then we can see why feel of balance changed and how it changed, the SW scale cant do that right.

    There is many ways to Rome, so when i look at this, i use Head weight / Total weight = Head weight % of total. ive done this for years before i knew about MBI who does the same, only reversed where its shaft and grip side / total weight, but they both give the same info, only different number values.

    EXAMPLES. - a #6 iron with "standard specs" and DG shafts.

    Grip weight - 50 grams

    Grip tape - 2 grams

    Net cut shaft weight - 121 grams

    SUM GRIP AND SHAFT = 173 grams

    Head weight - 261

    Ferrule and epoxy - 2 grams

    SUM HEAD WEIGHT = 263 Grams


    TOTAL WGT = 436 grams

    Head weight 263 / Total weight 436 = 60.33%

    Shaft and grip 173 / Total weight 436 = 39.67%

    That means it does not matter what direction we do the numbers, only the return values "looks different" but represent the same


    Now we ADD grip weight from the standard 50 gram grip to a MID size of 60 grams

    Sum shaft and grip is now 183 grams, and Total goes up the same 10 grams to 446 grams and return this MBI values

    Head weight 263 / Total 446 = 58.96%

    Shaft and grip 183 / Total 446 = 41.04%

    MBI changed with 1.37%, some is able to feel it, others is not, but since TOTAL is more important than both SW, MOI or MBI, we risk to end over and beyond the players tolerance for TOTAL weight if we try to please the SW scale or get MBI values correct on the paper, and if we compensate with head weight, we trow off MOI and make it higher than needed.

    If we now follow the SW scale and saw that those 10 grams added, caused a drop of 2 SWP, we would add 2.12 grams x 2 = 4.14 grams head weight

    New head weight is now 267 grams / new total wgt 450 grams = 59.33%, but we came from a MBI of 60.33% so we only improved MBI by about 0.33 and messed up both MOI and Total weight, so the SW scale CAN NOT help us to reset the feel of balance we had, thats the problem here.

    The SW system DO NOT give us a SET of clubs with the same MBI values using a flat SW value, but MBI explain why some players feel the difference, (in this case 1.37%) when we mess with grip weight, so if we want it all to be "right" or that all clubs should feel the same, we can only do that by using MOI, and for those thats very sensitive, use tolerances in grip weight to even out total weight progression from club to club or to fine tune the MBI numbers, since MOI itself dont move much if grip weight vary a little. (tolerances for grip weight is often plus minus 3.5 grams from official wgt and here we can take advantage of that)

    This debate will never end, i know that, but this is the best i can do to explain why we cant let the SW scale be in charge here, its not as important as Total wgt or actual MOI

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  • Stuart_GStuart_G New HampshireMembers  25573WRX Points: 1,950Posts: 25,573 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Feb 21, 2020 11:11am #521

    @Howard_Jones You realize you're preaching to the choir ;-)


    edit: I should have asked first, how are you with english idioms?

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  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11625WRX Points: 2,293Posts: 11,625 Titanium Tees
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    Not good, i often see "words of wisdom" or "sayings" that makes no sense at all to me, but i got the point, but if the choir can read the notes and text, they cant sing the song :-)

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  • carcharodon1977carcharodon1977 Edmonton, AlbertaMembers  106WRX Points: 37Handicap: 16.9Posts: 106 Fairways
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    I have a set of Maltby TS-1 iron heads (6-Pw) and Project X rifle shafts, .355 tip. All have Winn DriTac grips (58g). I was under the assumption that the irons would all be the same swing weight because the shafts are designed for the heads (ie: longer irons have a longer shaft, shorter irons a shorter shaft). Is this incorrect? All clubs are built to standard length and lie. Are they infact all different swing weights? I don't feel any major differences in them.

    39.5" 6i 259g

    40" 7i 266g

    40.5" 8i 273g

    41" 9i 280g

    41.5" Pw 277g

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  • Stuart_GStuart_G New HampshireMembers  25573WRX Points: 1,950Posts: 25,573 Titanium Tees
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    In theory they should be close. Head weights are usually designed to swing weight match when standard 1/2" length increments are used. But manufacturing is an imperfect process - both for the heads, the shafts, and even the playing lengths. So it's normal for variations to creep in that can throw them off from matching. A swing of 2-3 sw pts isn't all that unusual and even more is possible.

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  • dhen9dhen9 Members  907WRX Points: 189Posts: 907 Golden Tee
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    Help. Have a set of Ping G710 with 7 iron measuring at 37.5" and D2 swing weight. If I don't want to send back to Ping and want to keep swing weight within 1-2 points of where it is currently but want finished length to play 37" (-3 SW points) how much weight needs to be added? If added down the shaft with tungsten powder will change CG? I plan to keep the same 52 gram grip on the club.

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  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11625WRX Points: 2,293Posts: 11,625 Titanium Tees
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    6.5 grams as tip weight or tungsten powder to reset 3 SWP at 37.00", or 6.25 grams if its lead tape on the back of the club head

    Dont worry about COG, you want notice any difference

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  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11625WRX Points: 2,293Posts: 11,625 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Apr 23, 2020 5:40am #528

    Questions about reducing head weight often comes up, and for irons and Wedges HOSEL DRILLING is the way to go with a drill press and hosel fixture. Most heads today has a BBGM of 1.25 and higher, so thats the "drilling area", MINUS a safe limit. We also have to study the hosel to see if its a "full cylinder shape" all the way down, or of it goes smaller / flat or bends, so we dont drill trough the hosel walls at that point. This Charts for drill bits an depts can be used to see whats needed of drilling to remove the amount of weight you need to remove. We can in general remove up to 10 grams from iron heads, if BBGM is higher like it often is on wedges, even more.

    Swing weights is NOT 2 grams pr SWP, it vary depending on play length, so use this char for a more exact dry fit, and forget that rule of thumb.


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  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11625WRX Points: 2,293Posts: 11,625 Titanium Tees
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  • mwilkins25mwilkins25 NYCMembers  164WRX Points: 29Handicap: 10Posts: 164 Fairways
    Joined:  edited Apr 24, 2020 3:16am #530

    Just to be sure I am reading the second part correctly, you are saying that 2 grams per swing weight point as a rule of thumb across all clubs is incorrect? 2g is good for a 38 6/8” club but a 40” club would need 1.91g for one swp, right?

    Ive been playing around with swing weight and found that I’m striking the ball better with ~6g added to the head (bringing them up to ~D4.5). Is that enough added weight to need to worry about total weight being too high? Or is 6g not significant enough to worry about?

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    Post edited by mwilkins25 on

    Cobra F9 9* Tour AD DI 6S
    Cobra F9 15* Fuji Atmos Blue 7S
    Irons: MP20 $taper (3,4 HMB; 5,6 MMC; 7-PW MB)
    RTX4 50*, 54*, 58* DG300
    Newport 3

  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11625WRX Points: 2,293Posts: 11,625 Titanium Tees
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    YES you read the chart correct, for a club thats 40" long its 1.91 grams pr SWP

    Total weight is a question of what total weight thats your limit, and its no way for me to judge that since i dont know your limits for that, only testing can tell.

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  • mwilkins25mwilkins25 NYCMembers  164WRX Points: 29Handicap: 10Posts: 164 Fairways
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    Understood, thank you Howard!


    If you have the time to indulge me further, I was wondering what options I have to increase swing weight of my existing set while maintaining total weight. I currently have MCC grips with 2 extra wraps but from reading your other responses, it seems like you don't think grip side changes are the proper fix. I am playing a mixed MP20 set with Kbs $taper stiff and my 7i playing length is 37.25 (which I believe is standard with the grip on).


    Also, out of curiosity, where are you located? Next time I get a set, I want to fly to where you are to get it done properly!

    Posted:

    Cobra F9 9* Tour AD DI 6S
    Cobra F9 15* Fuji Atmos Blue 7S
    Irons: MP20 $taper (3,4 HMB; 5,6 MMC; 7-PW MB)
    RTX4 50*, 54*, 58* DG300
    Newport 3

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  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11625WRX Points: 2,293Posts: 11,625 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Apr 24, 2020 3:17pm #533

    Instead of a direct answer, i suggest you follow this link and read the chapter VISUAL FITTING. It splits up head and total weight and show you how we can do testing to find the limits we have, we cant just focus on a number itself since total weight is related to play lengths. I simply dont want you to worry about total weight before you KNOW your limits, and if you are on the edge, a shaft weight reduction is the way to go IF more head weight is needed and higher total weight is out of the question. What happens grip side (up or down), want do much for feel of head weight, only over all club balance and total weight.

    scroll down to post 38 in this link

    https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/909991/diy-driver-tune-up-diy-fitting/p1

    Im in Europe and retired, and i no longer take clients, i only work with a few customers i had for many years, mostly "consulting" when they need a change, so its not many fittings i do anymore.

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  • mwilkins25mwilkins25 NYCMembers  164WRX Points: 29Handicap: 10Posts: 164 Fairways
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    All roads lead back to that post! I need to print it and put it together as the holy grail!


    Thanks as always for all the help! My side project for the next few years is to learn enough to properly fit myself so all of this is really amazing. Hope you and your family are all staying safe.

    Posted:

    Cobra F9 9* Tour AD DI 6S
    Cobra F9 15* Fuji Atmos Blue 7S
    Irons: MP20 $taper (3,4 HMB; 5,6 MMC; 7-PW MB)
    RTX4 50*, 54*, 58* DG300
    Newport 3

  • dalebretondalebreton Members  15WRX Points: 5Posts: 15 Starters
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    Hey, it is a good idea

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  • Jim53Jim53 Members  80WRX Points: 51Posts: 80 Fairways
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    This is a very interesting and informative thread, I have just purchased a set of paderson IMRT 95 shafts to put into my Honma TR20 P irons which I will do myself. I asked a couple of questions in the other SW thread about tip weights but I have another about grip weight. I normally use either Z Cord mid or Tour velvet mid grips and play 1/2" over standard (38.5" 5 iron) I have always tip weighted to account for grip weight.

    These shafts have 98 gram Jumbo max grips on them which I was just going to pull and discard due to the weight, but reading in this thread and if I am reading the tech correctly the SW should be set prior to worrying about the grip. Also the Jumbo Max website says it does not matter as the weight is in your hands (basically) but for the life of me I cannot see how putting a 98 gram grip is not going to have a major affect on the feel of the club as the total weight is changing a lot and SW will be much less on the scale.

    Could this be addressed please so I understand the process better in terms a very new club building person can relate too, I have now put together quite a few sets of irons and many Driver / FW shafts with good results but this grip weight as it relates to actually playing the club is confusing.

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  • Stuart_GStuart_G New HampshireMembers  25573WRX Points: 1,950Posts: 25,573 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited May 26, 2020 1:31pm #537

    There are different aspects to the weight feel of a club. Grip weight doesn't have an effect on the traditional swing weight concept or newer club MOI. But it certainly can have an effect on the total static weight feel of the club. Both can contribute to how heavy a club feels to the player - but they do so in different ways and possibly different consequences (and it's not always easy to differentiate the two). Different players can have different sensitivity to each of those aspects.

    So the best way to address this the following:

    1) pick the best grip based on size and comfort w/o worry about the weight.

    2) Using that grip, find the best shaft weight for your swing (via testing or trial and error). This will help establish the best static weight.

    3) Then finally it's time to find the best head weight for that particular combination of shaft weight and grip weight. This is also done through trial and error testing (like all the other steps) with some lead tape on the range. It's not done with a swing weight scale or using any previously established swing weight value.

    4) Once you got the head weight dialed in, only now should you start to use the swing weight scale. Measure the club and that will give you a value you can use to help you build the rest of the irons in the set (that have the same grip weight and shaft weight/model).

    If in the future you change anything - like go to a different grip or a different shaft - then throw out that swing weight value and go through the process again of finding the best head weight.

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  • Ann11Ann11 Members  5WRX Points: 6Posts: 5 Bunkers
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    Hm, thanks for this.

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  • SebastianQuinngSebastianQuinng Members  20WRX Points: -18Posts: 20 Bunkers
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    I'm a little bit lost already here😅

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  • SCOTT4099SCOTT4099 Members  1108WRX Points: 132Posts: 1,108 Platinum Tees
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    Hi

    is D0 for irons on the low end? What would be an average set off the shelf middle of the road game improvement irons. I know it can vary by OEM but is there a general baseline that doesn’t feel too light or too heavy?



    thanks

    Posted:
    Callaway epic 9.0
    Cobra bio cell 3/4
    Ping G 19 degree hybrid
    Ping ie1 4-AW modus 105
    Callaway MD3 54/58 wedges
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  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
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  • Stuart_GStuart_G New HampshireMembers  25573WRX Points: 1,950Posts: 25,573 Titanium Tees
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    D0 to D2 is the more common range for stock swing weights in adult men's irons. As far as how it might feel, that depends on a lot of factors, many of them very subjective and specific to you. Too light and too heavy are only determined by testing and you judging how they feel as well as watching the ball flight result as the swing weight changes. General rule of thumb, is that if they feel too light or too heavy, there is a good chance that they are. But you also have to be careful with that as the weight feel can come from both the shaft weight (or static weight of the club) as well as swing weight (head weight). So get some lead tape and play around with different amounts on the range and see what works best for you.

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