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Huge discrepancy in chipping advice. Mickelson/Sieckmann

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  • royourboatroyourboat Members Posts: 467 ✭✭✭✭
    I went through the Sieckman books too. I found it quite cool as learning experience even though "I don't use it now".



    Considering it's on topic, I would like to make 3 points.



    1. The term "model" is often looked down upon. There is good scientific reason for that, but it's also better to follow a short game model then creating your own frankenstein method from parents/friends/youtube... Just think, some guru has literally put their credibility on the line in trying to say these items matchup and are functional (even if they aren't ideals for you). An adhoc approach to building your shortgame is the opposite.



    2. Pretty sure JS said to extend the lead leg and body through the bunker shot. "My gun bunker student Charlie Wi always finishes high" or something like that.. I say bad James. Bad bad James. Keep lead leg static as possible and never ever extend through the shot. Short game is always removal of as much variability as possible, no addition whatsever.



    3. I've spent a lot of time going through the Short Game Secrets videos, I love them particularly for distance wedges and general concepts... The videos are short but really dense in high quality material, that I believe is largely original. That said, for greenside chipping, I don't think you can underestimate the genius of iteach's model. And the reason I mention this is because I look at my P2 checkpoint when practising and have flashbacks to the sieckmann finesse wedge.



    With both of them, I often feel like left shoulder is a fairly static fulcrum. The right arm folds up, almost like you're pulling a bow string with ER and then you can let the club and right arm guide it back to the ground and catch the ball. I think the iteach method is like a more compact JS method due to setup. Due to wrist action and impact intent it's probably shallower at impact but you want to collect ground probably before ball, whereas JS wanted ball then ground. Definitely try it if you get itchy feet. I feel like a god when I hit lower shots deliberately.
    I like to tee the ball up.. using man sized clubs.


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  • PJ72PJ72 Members Posts: 1,933 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Circaflex wrote:


    Recently I use more of the phil method, thats how my dad taught me and it works out well. I still need to learn the higher, softer landing shot and thats my biggest struggle.




    Monte's short game video will help you massively in this area.
  • TheCityGameTheCityGame Traj like Minaj Members Posts: 15,730 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    A.Princey wrote:


    The hinge and hold is much less prone to error, especially with the ball back in your stance a little. The bounce is still engaging the ground unless your taking a Paul Bunyan chop down at the ball. The swing arc virtually assures you will at least strike the ball first, vs the other, where timing is paramount. Fat/thin shots abound with JS if you flip or release wrong. Buried lies do require more decision making at address to decide how to play each individual shot. I cannot tell you how many people I've played with who try and get super cute with a chip, and as they try and "scoop" under the ball they either blade or chunk the **** out of it. Just pretend your putting(ball back and hands forward) and "sweep" down at the ball with some assertiveness. For short range, the hinge and hold is more or less an aggressive putting motion with a neg AoA and forward press.



    Even when I like to engage the bounce a lot or open the face, I'm cutting more across the ball with a straight lead arm with respect the the shaft. The 3 exceptions are buried lies, in fluffy bunkers or flop shots. Here, there's a definite release, but also because the shot requires more speed. If it's a decent grass lie and there's nothing crazy between the hole and I, it's hinge and hold all the way. The only wedge shot I really fear anymore is a longish flop from super muddy/soft fairways. Btw I am a fairly competent wedge player.



    I also believe most wedges don't have enough bounce built in, especially for the amateur player. Crazy what's OTR vs some of the custom grinds/options, as it would seem they should be opposite. Some of the peak sole angles on tour grinds make a 45* with the leading edge, while Joe Regular has a 6-8* full sole Cleveland SW from Dick's that has no real usefulness except wide open in a bunker. Bounce is your friend unless you play on cement. I'll shut up now....
    This post is very similar to my ideas. I can't help but feel like I'm doing a flip/scoop/get under the ball move, when I'm trying a JS-style shot.



    Now, I'm not going to blame JS for this. I'm trying to evaluate his method through my interpretation and implementation of it without having a coach/pro present, so to indict him would be wrong. He unequivocally states in his book that his move is not a "flip", I guess I just feel like I'm adding one more lever to the swing when I try this shot and I don't like that.



    In "my" game, I feel like I create a wide arc with a flat bottom using a hinge and hold, and I definitely get the bounce into the ground with that technique. I also use (for most shots) a high bounce wedge : 54º/14º and the 60º/12º M-grind for more "specialty shots". My course tends to be soggy, too.
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  • David CDavid C Members Posts: 855 ✭✭✭✭✭


    Here's Phil Mickelson on instagram talking about the proper position of the lead wrist in the chipping motion.







    Inverse angle, he says. "Shouldn't be a straight line. DEFINITELY shouldn't be a V. Your hands have GOT to be ahead of the club. This keeps the leading edge down."



    [color="#000000"]But, I've been reading through this new James Sieckmann book and he is basically saying the COMPLETE OPPOSITE. ACtually. . .no "basically about it". He's saying the complete opposite. These ideas are irreconcilable. I could show you screenshots and quotes, but here's some online evidence. . .i[/color]f you go to the 4:00 minute mark of this video.



    https://www.golfchannel.com/video/james-sieckmanns-short-game-tips



    QUOTE : "A lot of people have been taught -- and erroneously so -- to keep your hands ahead and not let them pass. [when you look at great players] the cup is maintained in their left wrist."



    I guess in my opinion, the difference between the two styles is this. . .



    In Mick's style, if you're a little bit fat, you're going to be punished; the front edge is going into the ground and you're turning the sod over it (and this is one reason he really prefers to play it closer to the back foot). But, you can get away with being a little bit thin. You'll catch it a couple grooves low, but a descending blow with the leading edge staying down would have to be REALLY thin to blade it. Furthermore, this is a move that feels closer to a full shot move.



    In Sieck's style, you can get away with being a little bit fat, but if you come up at all out of that shot, you've got the leading edge coming directly into the ball from a pretty shallow angle and you're thinning one over the green.



    Both of these guys claim Seve as a practitioner of their technique. They both claim that they're using the bounce, but Sieckmann claims (in the book) that Phil's technique is not using a wedge properly. He doesn't call Phil by name but says, "Bounce is your friend. The only way to unlock its benefits is to let the clubhead pass your hands through impact so that more of the sole comes in contact with the turf."




    No-ones clubhead has passed their hands through impact. Most will have it in the process of passing. I’ve never seen anyone without shaft lean on any good shot in golf. Ever.



    If you open up both stance and club and do what Phil suggests you can still allow the mid to rear of the sole to contact the ground more than the leading edge.



    If you also open up you can have the ball dead centre from your perspective, with 10 degrees of shaft lean, and from a face on perspective have the shaft laying back dramatically.



    Everyone takes loft off in the backswing and adds in through impact. Some do it more or less. The key is if your technique is consistent. I’d argue Lefty is consistent and so the bounce is allowed to work consistently.



    The key difference is his hand is moving. For Sieckmann and others the chest or right arm is moving. As long as something is moving all other things being equal any technique can work consistently.
  • David CDavid C Members Posts: 855 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Last year I did a cold assessment of my ability, age and practice time available. For me Phil’s way of chipping and bunkers produces better results. Not in terms of bounce which as above I think isn’t as different as it appears but i.e. opening up the stance to vary the shot is WAY more consistent than the modern way because I don’t want different releases with clubs. I don’t want a driver, iron, chipping, pitching, distance wedge release. Neither do I find shot shaping reliable by altering path. Flop shots are easier than learning how to lower the handle and hitting them square. I find the slight bit of left to right spin in the short game and distance differences in the long game are way more manageable than hitting Sieckmann style chips where distance control seems to me to be more difficult to judge. I can be more precise with my landing area and guarantee more uphill putts for example. I’d rather have the club rotating than under-flipping and not make an exception for the short game. There are already about 9 or 10 key swing feels you need to master in golf and hundreds of sub-feels for lie and slope to learn without multiplying that by a different release. Plus the key thing on top of all this is I’m not a kid and so re-tooling my short game at my age is probably a fool’s errand.
  • JagpilotohioJagpilotohio 45+ inch drivers are evil. Columbus, OHMembers Posts: 7,255 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Jan 8, 2019 8:52am #37
    Phils video is talking about CHIPPING from only a few yards off the green.



    The JS video is talking about PITCHING from about “10-15 yards” off the green.



    They are NOT the same thing or the same mechanics.



    They are both correct.



    Phil is not using “his” technique if he is 15 yards from the green and has to go over a bunker to a pin cut 3 paces from the edge of the bunker.



    As others have said, the Technique used is situational, not exclusive of each other.
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  • TheCityGameTheCityGame Traj like Minaj Members Posts: 15,730 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭


    Phils video is talking about CHIPPING from only a few yards off the green.



    The JS video is talking about PITCHING from about "10-15 yards" off the green.



    They are NOT the same thing or the same mechanics.



    They are both correct.



    Phil is not using "his" technique if he is 15 yards from the green and has to go over a bunker to a pin cut 3 paces from the edge of the bunker.



    As others have said, the Technique used is situational, not exclusive of each other.
    Well, also as others have said, "Mixing the two styles is, quite frankly, very difficult to do. . . It's just a completely different "release". . .and you will be "in between" for a good many rounds".



    JS discusses two shots in his book. . .the finesse shot and the power shot. The finesse shot is for all shots that are within about 30 yards of the green (not a hard and fast rule). The finesse shot is more arm-driven, and uses gravity to drop the club. The power shot uses the hips to deliver the club to the ball.



    Consequently, Sieckmann's "finesse" shot completely covers the "chip" that you say Phil is talking about. They are talking about using completely different techniques for the same shot and are quite exclusive of each other in this case.
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  • JagpilotohioJagpilotohio 45+ inch drivers are evil. Columbus, OHMembers Posts: 7,255 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭



    Phils video is talking about CHIPPING from only a few yards off the green.



    The JS video is talking about PITCHING from about "10-15 yards" off the green.



    They are NOT the same thing or the same mechanics.



    They are both correct.



    Phil is not using "his" technique if he is 15 yards from the green and has to go over a bunker to a pin cut 3 paces from the edge of the bunker.



    As others have said, the Technique used is situational, not exclusive of each other.
    Well, also as others have said, "Mixing the two styles is, quite frankly, very difficult to do. . . It's just a completely different "release". . .and you will be "in between" for a good many rounds".



    JS discusses two shots in his book. . .the finesse shot and the power shot. The finesse shot is for all shots that are within about 30 yards of the green (not a hard and fast rule). The finesse shot is more arm-driven, and uses gravity to drop the club. The power shot uses the hips to deliver the club to the ball.



    Consequently, Sieckmann's "finesse" shot completely covers the "chip" that you say Phil is talking about. They are talking about using completely different techniques for the same shot and are quite exclusive of each other in this case.




    I’m speaking specifically about the two videos posted. They absolutely are not talking about the same shot of the same length. Phil is speaking about a technique from within a few yards of the green with nothing to carry. He would not use it if he were farther away or had to go higher and land it softer.



    Although he doesn’t say it, Phil is essentially describing close to the green chipping as “putting with your wedge”. Play the ball back in your stance, Set the wrists, and hit it like a very firm putt.

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  • MountainGoatMountainGoat Mid-MarylandMembers Posts: 2,162 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Jan 8, 2019 2:17pm #40
    Huge discrepancy in chipping advice? Yes. And it testifies to the fact that you've got to sort thru the various methods yourself and find something that works for you. There is no universal prescription.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • CasualLieCasualLie Do Woodchucks Chuck Wood? Members Posts: 1,434 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    I am just wondering if there is way too much focus in this thread on things like release when it comes to chipping or short pitches. It seems all kind agree bounce is your friend with either method, so there is that. But to me lost in this conversation is the more focus on what your hands are doing, the more chance for error. I am not saying you do not need your hands, do not need a release; it's just the area of focus and those things should happen more naturally given you are doing the other things correctly - i.e. proper setup, ball position, body turn, etc... the two more important tips I have seen from Monte and others are (1) you have something akin to a tossing motion to regulate speed / path. Very much like how much movement do you need to toss a ball onto a landing spot on the green, and (2), do not stall, keep the momentum going to the target. Monte shows this in videos referring to humerus / upper arm getting forward.
  • CircaflexCircaflex Well, I gotta go now. I’ve got a lotta bouncin’ to do! Members Posts: 746 ✭✭✭✭✭
    PJ72 wrote:

    Circaflex wrote:


    Recently I use more of the phil method, thats how my dad taught me and it works out well. I still need to learn the higher, softer landing shot and thats my biggest struggle.




    Monte's short game video will help you massively in this area.




    Thanks, I will take a look at it. I enjoy Montes videos and its great we can actually chat with him here.
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  • gatorMDgatorMD Hacker-in-Chief ClubWRX Posts: 4,564 ClubWRX
    ok bought monte wedges series
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  • gatorMDgatorMD Hacker-in-Chief ClubWRX Posts: 4,564 ClubWRX
    i like it so far 50 bucks a poopoo 50 bucks
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  • MonteScheinblumMonteScheinblum Rebellion Golf Southern CaliforniaMembers Posts: 18,455 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    gatorMD wrote:


    i like it so far 50 bucks a poopoo 50 bucks




    The wedges series is $25. Did you buy it twice by accident?
  • A.PrinceyA.Princey Major Hacker Members Posts: 2,273 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Jan 8, 2019 4:53pm #46
    For the less talented individuals and higher handicaps, eliminating movement and angles should be the goal. I've seen too many people that get the clubhead moving a lot with respect to their hands, tying to release into and through the ball. It usually looks like a slow motion disaster because they cannot control the speed/force. This doesn't even factor in the fact that they are likely delivering a grab bag of lofts at impact from shot to shot.
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  • Fort Worth ProFort Worth Pro Members Posts: 2,796 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    They're both wrong about parts and they're both correct about some parts. The key is knowing which parts
  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,812 ClubWRX
    gatorMD wrote:


    i like it so far 50 bucks a poopoo 50 bucks




    The wedges series is $25. Did you buy it twice by accident?




    He's very generous. :-)
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  • smdykassmdykas Members Posts: 168 ✭✭✭


    What I teach is more the JS way. One is not better than the other. I BELIEVE the way I teach it has a greater margin of error.



    Three things to consider.



    1. Seve ca be seen hitting shots both ways.

    2. Phil can be seen hitting shots both ways and I watched him practice what would be called JS way for 2 straight hours a few years ago.

    3. You have to be careful with, "There is only one right way."




    are we going to learn more of this in Chicago?
  • Skaffa77Skaffa77 No place like the Sand Hills! ClubWRX Posts: 6,897 ClubWRX
    Wow...interesting...I grew up learning hinge and hold and that is what I'm most accustom to using in most situations. I had an instructor watch and overall he liked the basic fundamentals I employed, but also added in a softer wrist/hands technique that had less roll, but could also be helpful.



    9 time out of 10, I'll hinge and hold because that is what I'm comfortable using...every now and again I enjoy using the softer wrist/hands.
  • dasamsdasams Members Posts: 286 ✭✭✭✭
    I just bought JS's Short Game Solution book ($7.99 @ kindle) and it's focused on finesse pitches from 120 yds and in. In a power swing, the kinematic sequence has the hips reach max speed first followed by the torso, then arms, hands and club head. JS teaches the opposite for a finesse swing, ie, in the downswing, the club moves first followed by the body. He says he learned this technique from filming and dissecting the swings of pros with great short games including Seve (who was buddies with JS's brother).



    No arguments from me as his approach uses the bounce and may be great for soft landing pitches. But if I'm 3 ft off of a green with another 20 ft to the hole, I'm going to use Phil's hinge and hold chipping method.
  • Fort Worth ProFort Worth Pro Members Posts: 2,796 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    dasams wrote:


    I just bought JS's Short Game Solution book ($7.99 @ kindle) and it's focused on finesse pitches from 120 yds and in. In a power swing, the kinematic sequence has the hips reach max speed first followed by the torso, then arms, hands and club head. JS teaches the opposite for a finesse swing, ie, in the downswing, the club moves first followed by the body. He says he learned this technique from filming and dissecting the swings of pros with great short games including Seve (who was buddies with JS's brother).



    No arguments from me as his approach uses the bounce and may be great for soft landing pitches. But if I'm 3 ft off of a green with another 20 ft to the hole, I'm going to use Phil's hinge and hold chipping method.




    I have seen a ton of great players 3D kinematic pitching sequences and have never seen the club move first
  • gatorMDgatorMD Hacker-in-Chief ClubWRX Posts: 4,564 ClubWRX

    gatorMD wrote:


    i like it so far 50 bucks a poopoo 50 bucks




    The wedges series is $25. Did you buy it twice by accident?




    i bought wedge and bounce 2.0 so tech 74 bucks
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  • gatorMDgatorMD Hacker-in-Chief ClubWRX Posts: 4,564 ClubWRX
    POWER FING CHUNKKKKKK lol. love that shot.
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  • gatorMDgatorMD Hacker-in-Chief ClubWRX Posts: 4,564 ClubWRX
    didnt tiger make the switch to the JS release too?
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  • finleysgfinleysg MinnesotaMembers Posts: 1,242 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    The JS book helped me quite a bit with distances wedges and even more with bunker play. For shots inside 25 yds or so, I have struggled mightily with the finesse techniques, at least as I understand them. Hinge and hold has never felt comfortable either. Hinge and dig is too often the result.



    My short game is problematic enough that I find myself hoping to hit a bunker when I know I'm going to miss the green.
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  • okie21okie21 Members Posts: 141 ✭✭✭
    I had used the JS technique forever, until this fall saw the attached Phil clip. So I spent awhile at the chipping green, got it down and decided to employ it. Arguably the best short-game in the world right? So I gotta listen to him.



    Well, I haven't struggled this much in my short game since picking up the sport. So I switched back, still struggling! Its like my muscle memory can't outrun my mind picturing Phil talking about the leading edge...
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  • dasamsdasams Members Posts: 286 ✭✭✭✭
    edited Jan 9, 2019 12:55pm #58

    dasams wrote:


    I just bought JS's Short Game Solution book ($7.99 @ kindle) and it's focused on finesse pitches from 120 yds and in. In a power swing, the kinematic sequence has the hips reach max speed first followed by the torso, then arms, hands and club head. JS teaches the opposite for a finesse swing, ie, in the downswing, the club moves first followed by the body. He says he learned this technique from filming and dissecting the swings of pros with great short games including Seve (who was buddies with JS's brother).



    No arguments from me as his approach uses the bounce and may be great for soft landing pitches. But if I'm 3 ft off of a green with another 20 ft to the hole, I'm going to use Phil's hinge and hold chipping method.




    I have seen a ton of great players 3D kinematic pitching sequences and have never seen the club move first




    On p4 of his book, he describes working with Dr Greg Rose of the Titleist Performance Institute who had also learned of the club first swing. Here's how he explains it on on p34 of his book:
    JS.jpg 137.3K
  • gatorMDgatorMD Hacker-in-Chief ClubWRX Posts: 4,564 ClubWRX
    **** Monte the mud shot handle up technique really just blew my mind. I am terrible at those muddy lies and we get them a lot here in florida. This was amazing right off the bat on the practice tee and course. WOW just WOW is all i have to say. Thanks for all the great info as usual.
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  • Fort Worth ProFort Worth Pro Members Posts: 2,796 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    dasams wrote:


    dasams wrote:


    I just bought JS's Short Game Solution book ($7.99 @ kindle) and it's focused on finesse pitches from 120 yds and in. In a power swing, the kinematic sequence has the hips reach max speed first followed by the torso, then arms, hands and club head. JS teaches the opposite for a finesse swing, ie, in the downswing, the club moves first followed by the body. He says he learned this technique from filming and dissecting the swings of pros with great short games including Seve (who was buddies with JS's brother).



    No arguments from me as his approach uses the bounce and may be great for soft landing pitches. But if I'm 3 ft off of a green with another 20 ft to the hole, I'm going to use Phil's hinge and hold chipping method.




    I have seen a ton of great players 3D kinematic pitching sequences and have never seen the club move first




    On p4 of his book, he describes working with Dr Greg Rose of the Titleist Performance Institute who had also learned of the club first swing. Here's how he explains it on on p34 of his book:




    I have seen the 3ds from TPI and they don't show club starting first. They show the club casting yes but they all show pelvis moving first. They also have a very different deceleration pattern than a full swing. The sequence is very different than a full swing but the pelvis does not move first.
  • cardoustiecardoustie haha, we don't play for 5's Tasmania to CanadaMembers Posts: 12,576 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Would the Jason Day method be a 3rd option? Anyone employ it? On the surface it seems easiest.



    Fwiw, I use both Phil and the release method depending on the shot at hand .. and the surface I'm on
    Ping G400 LST 11* Oban Revenge 65x
    Callaway GBB 3w 14* NVS 75x
    Callaway GBB 5w 17.5* NVS 85x
    Callaway Apex 4h 23* Catalyst 70s
    Callaway Apex 5h 26* Apache MFS 85x
    Ping Blueprints 6i-PW DG xp115 x100 
    Ping iWedge 50* Tour Concept x100
    Vokey sm2 TVD M grind 54* & 60* DG s400 Onyx
    Scotty X7m

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