It just me or are a lot of pros switching to Nippon Iron Shafts?

[Golfrnut]

Just FYI... Tip will always be the softest part...butt is going to be the strongest.

:rolleyes: I understand you technical engineers have limited brain capacity for anything but numbers on a sheet of paper but yes, I understand the CPM's of the butt are higher than the CPM's of the tip. However, as I have posted numerous times, and what you still fail to grasp is raw numbers are meaningless unless you apply them to a scale that people can translate to actual information. You speak in data, I speak in information. I don't feel it is that hard of a concept to grasp. In comparison to how one would expect a portion of the shaft to behave, the butt of the Tour120 is softer to "normal" than the middle or tip is stiffer to "normal." The overarching characteristic of the Tour120 is the softer butt section. Which compared to a Tour125, or CTaper or KBS Tour, or others has a much softer feel. Compared to DG, which already has a slightly softer butt section, it won't feel immensely softer. My normal may not be someone elses normal so I describe how I feel other shafts are that they may have tried too. They can then translate my feel of a shaft they have already hit and apply that same translation to my feel of Nippon. If you extend the butt portion of a "butt soft" shaft you will be exacerbating the soft butt feature which in the case of the Tour120, is going to make the shaft feel softer. Eventhough you are extending the "strongest" part of the shaft. The strongest part of the 120 shaft in relation to how other strongest parts of other shafts feel, the strongest part of the Tour120 is not as strong. :beruo: I'm always going to be talking in terms of feel and comparison to feel. You can't measure feel. I used many words to describe feel to try to help others understand how I feel and what I like. Conveying feel via words over the internet is not easy. I don't need some black and white paper boy in here contradicting and nit-picking every little word I say. Just go away already dude.

 

Your words not mine

 

Tour120, the butt is the softest part so I think you may end up with a much softer feel because you're extending a softer part of the shaft

 

So yes, your information is incorrect. Don't care if you want to try and say data and information is different, it still doesn't make what you say correct. You don't understand things as well as you think you do. You gave him bad info....just own up and accept it for crying out loud and stop trying to tap-dance.

 

 

[Yarra]

Mark,

 

Currently playing the Prototype C10 and it's getting that heavy feel to my ageing body. Anything with similar bend profile but lighter? At the worse days, my attack angle seems on the plus side with irons. What do you think of the ORA? Thanks in advance.

[Yarra]

Just FYI... Tip will always be the softest part...butt is going to be the strongest.

:rolleyes: I understand you technical engineers have limited brain capacity for anything but numbers on a sheet of paper but yes, I understand the CPM's of the butt are higher than the CPM's of the tip. However, as I have posted numerous times, and what you still fail to grasp is raw numbers are meaningless unless you apply them to a scale that people can translate to actual information. You speak in data, I speak in information. I don't feel it is that hard of a concept to grasp. In comparison to how one would expect a portion of the shaft to behave, the butt of the Tour120 is softer to "normal" than the middle or tip is stiffer to "normal." The overarching characteristic of the Tour120 is the softer butt section. Which compared to a Tour125, or CTaper or KBS Tour, or others has a much softer feel. Compared to DG, which already has a slightly softer butt section, it won't feel immensely softer. My normal may not be someone elses normal so I describe how I feel other shafts are that they may have tried too. They can then translate my feel of a shaft they have already hit and apply that same translation to my feel of Nippon. If you extend the butt portion of a "butt soft" shaft you will be exacerbating the soft butt feature which in the case of the Tour120, is going to make the shaft feel softer. Eventhough you are extending the "strongest" part of the shaft. The strongest part of the 120 shaft in relation to how other strongest parts of other shafts feel, the strongest part of the Tour120 is not as strong. :beruo: I'm always going to be talking in terms of feel and comparison to feel. You can't measure feel. I used many words to describe feel to try to help others understand how I feel and what I like. Conveying feel via words over the internet is not easy. I don't need some black and white paper boy in here contradicting and nit-picking every little word I say. Just go away already dude.

 

Your words not mine

 

Tour120, the butt is the softest part so I think you may end up with a much softer feel because you're extending a softer part of the shaft

 

So yes, your information is incorrect. Don't care if you want to try and say data and information is different, it still doesn't make what you say correct. You don't understand things as well as you think you do. You gave him bad info....just own up and accept it for crying out loud and stop trying to tap-dance.

 

What he's saying is the 120 has the softest butt profile of all the other profiles.

 

To call Mark 'don't understand things', 'giving bad info'... I can't even find the right word, as he is one of the most, if not the most, informative and helpful guy on here.

[Golfrnut]

What he's saying is the 120 has the softest butt profile of all the other profiles.

 

To call Mark 'don't understand things', 'giving bad info'... I can't even find the right word, as he is one of the most, if not the most, informative and helpful guy on here.

 

 

Read the quote that I posted below again...as I will post it once more.

 

Tour120, the butt is the softest part so I think you may end up with a much softer feel because you're extending a softer part of the shaft

 

That's not what he was saying, that's what he changed it too after I provided the correction. I can see right through the tap-dancing and goal post movement as it's a common occurrence.

 

There is a big difference between being helpful and offering opinions, quite another to step outside of what you understand and start giving false information. Go back through the thread and read the prior posts. I have no issues with offering your opinions on feel, but when you start trying to present it as fact and "true" when it's not, I do have an issue with it, as it gives people bad info that's nothing more than incorrect. Feel is one thing, understanding how the head weight, beam length, and profile physically comes into play, and the cause and effect of changing certain things, to get what you want/need out of a shaft he does not. There is a huge difference between the two. I can go down a substantial list as to why it's bad info and provide the right info, but it just falls on deaf ears as it has in the past. And when he has overstepped his knowledge on it all, he'll continually try and skirt his way around what he initially "meant". It's nothing more than a broken record. So yes, I have no problem posting the correct info as it deserves to be out there. It would be no different than me going over to the instruction forum here and trying to diagnose swing faults. Bigger difference is I know how to ask the questions to try to learn what I don't know instead of trying to convince people I understand and know what I'm talking about.

[markheardjr]

What he's saying is the 120 has the softest butt profile of all the other profiles.

 

To call Mark 'don't understand things', 'giving bad info'... I can't even find the right word, as he is one of the most, if not the most, informative and helpful guy on here.

 

 

Read the quote that I posted below again...as I will post it once more.

 

Tour120, the butt is the softest part so I think you may end up with a much softer feel because you're extending a softer part of the shaft

 

That's not what he was saying, that's what he changed it too after I provided the correction. I can see right through the tap-dancing and goal post movement as it's a common occurrence.

 

There is a big difference between being helpful and offering opinions, quite another to step outside of what you understand and start giving false information. Go back through the thread and read the prior posts. I have no issues with offering your opinions on feel, but when you start trying to present it as fact and "true" when it's not, I do have an issue with it, as it gives people bad info that's nothing more than incorrect. Feel is one thing, understanding how the head weight, beam length, and profile physically comes into play, and the cause and effect of changing certain things, to get what you want/need out of a shaft he does not. There is a huge difference between the two. I can go down a substantial list as to why it's bad info and provide the right info, but it just falls on deaf ears as it has in the past. And when he has overstepped his knowledge on it all, he'll continually try and skirt his way around what he initially "meant". It's nothing more than a broken record. So yes, I have no problem posting the correct info as it deserves to be out there. It would be no different than me going over to the instruction forum here and trying to diagnose swing faults. Bigger difference is I know how to ask the questions to try to learn what I don't know instead of trying to convince people I understand and know what I'm talking about.

 

Again, you're looking at 100% literal meaning only. I'm not the broken record, you're the broken needle reading the record. And sorry, but I am allowed to provide explanation when some narrow minded person comes on here and takes things out of context. Not that I feel I need to validate my own knowledge to you one bit. I will provide clarification and attempt to translate into words where you don't understand what I meant. I without a doubt knew 100% that the stiffest part of any shaft is the butt section and the tip is the softest. Look at any deflection chart and you can see that. You are unable to think in a different context than your own, and understand what I meant because you are completely literal. You're like an annoying robot. The Sheldon Cooper of WRX. The guy at the party that doesn't get sarcasm and yeah, nobody cares you don't get it. I am obviously not the only one that understood what I was writing.

 

The butt of the Tour120 is the softest part of the shaft when compared to a normal shaft flex digression from butt to tip of other shafts. That deviation from a "normal" shaft profile in the butt, mid and tip sections is how I read an EI profile and compare that to other shaft EI profiles. I am not back tracking or changing what I wrote in any way. You are just unable to get beyond your own thought and was pretty petty and obvious you just wanted to throw out a snip that tried to discredit my comment. But like I said, it was obvious, people knew what I meant. They probably even know what you were saying too, which is accurate, sure, an anecdotal tidbit of info that did not apply to what I was talking about.

 

I feel like I'm stuck in a religious or political debate with someone that gets 1-liner responses and staged questions/answers from some website that leans completely to one end of the spectrum. In your case, you feel validated by being a Wishonist. Great, be a Wishonist. As I stated before, the raw charts don't really tell people enough. For engineers maybe it tells you the exact profile which to you is everything you need to know. But for FEEL, you need to apply some rating to each section so people can gauge how soft/stiff the butt/middle/tip of the shaft are to help them when comparing to other shafts. A standard deviation of CPMs = how many flex steps of feel in a certain section of the shaft. Something like that. I think the example I gave was Graphite Design has a 10-pt scale and they can tell you along the shaft how "stiff" that part is 1 to 10. Do you think Graphite Design thinks a tip rated 10 is actually stiffer than a butt they call 5? No, it is in relation to some standard profile they are basing it off of. And that chart is more meaningful to most as they know how that feel will relate in their hands. Not the raw frequency at x" length in the shaft. If Wishon was the end all be all scale then why don't all OEM's provide a Wishon chart on their site, or something identical? They don't. Most have an EI scale and comment on butt, mid and tip stiffness. Wishon has EI as a tab in his software, why won't you show those? Those are the terms/charts people use to talk about shaft profiles. Embrace it. You'll make more of an impact!

 

Now, I suggest you go back to the swing forum, everyone knows what a heap of dung that place is because of people like you that continue to nag when YOU don't fully grasp what people are writing. Good Day.

[markheardjr]

Mark,

 

Currently playing the Prototype C10 and it's getting that heavy feel to my ageing body. Anything with similar bend profile but lighter? At the worse days, my attack angle seems on the plus side with irons. What do you think of the ORA? Thanks in advance.

Before you asked at the end I was already thinking ORA. C10 is also kind of similar to Tour125 with the stiffer butt, softer middle and stiffer tip. C10 I believe beefs up the butt and tip sections even more than Tour125 with more heft.

 

ORA vs. Tour125 I find the ORA to be a tad more demanding and a bit closer to an X100 than Tour125. Not as smooth but lower spin. Weight I think they are about the same, few grams if anything. Have you hit Tour125? I play the Tour125X in my irons and C10 S in my wedges and love them. Really blend together nicely. C10S irons players maybe try 125X soft-stepped and C10X maybe try 125X hard-stepped. C10S that thinks it's as low as they want to go flexwise maybe 125X straight in, vice versa C10X players looking to go a hair lighter and softer maybe 125X straight in.

 

I don't know, or have forgot exact weights of 2T15 and E11 but I think they are kind of similar profiles too, maybe 2T15 was lighter than E11? I want to say C10, 2T15, E11 and 2S14 were kind of similar in they were heavy and somewhat similar to DG/Tour125 type profile. Maybe a few minor differences here or there. 2F15 was completely different and was lighter and higher launch and spin. If anything, a touch more like a Tour105 or 1050 type.

[Golfrnut]

Again, you're looking at 100% literal meaning only. I'm not the broken record, you're the broken needle reading the record. And sorry, but I am allowed to provide explanation when some narrow minded person comes on here and takes things out of context. Not that I feel I need to validate my own knowledge to you one bit. I will provide clarification and attempt to translate into words where you don't understand what I meant. I without a doubt knew 100% that the stiffest part of any shaft is the butt section and the tip is the softest. Look at any deflection chart and you can see that. You are unable to think in a different context than your own, and understand what I meant because you are completely literal. You're like an annoying robot. The Sheldon Cooper of WRX. The guy at the party that doesn't get sarcasm and yeah, nobody cares you don't get it. I am obviously not the only one that understood what I was writing. The butt of the Tour120 is the softest part of the shaft when compared to a normal shaft flex digression from butt to tip of other shafts.

 

He didn't reference any other shafts, nor did you...he asked what happens when the shaft is extended 1". You are attempting to interject information later into the discussion that was in no way part of the original discussion between what was being asked. It's easy to see you are altering the information to save yourself here.

 

That deviation from a "normal" shaft profile in the butt, mid and tip sections is how I read an EI profile and compare that to other shaft EI profiles.

 

I'll go ahead and ask it....how are you doing so? There aren't any that I have seen you reference shafts aside from graphed tip-butt comparisons, but absolutely no numerical values on them. So how are you comparing shafts from one graph to another to say that one is softer or stiffer?

 

As I stated before, the raw charts don't really tell people enough.

 

And you say this right after referencing EI profiles. And backing with your own feel which is unquantifiable in terms of the masses. Everyone is not you, and you are not everyone so I am failing to see the connection of how you seem to continually think your feel information is worlds better than anything else out there.

 

For engineers maybe it tells you the exact profile which to you is everything you need to know. But for FEEL, you need to apply some rating to each section so people can gauge how soft/stiff the butt/middle/tip of the shaft are to help them when comparing to other shafts. A standard deviation of CPMs = how many flex steps of feel in a certain section of the shaft. Something like that. I think the example I gave was Graphite Design has a 10-pt scale and they can tell you along the shaft how "stiff" that part is 1 to 10. Do you think Graphite Design thinks a tip rated 10 is actually stiffer than a butt they call 5? No, it is in relation to some standard profile they are basing it off of. And that chart is more meaningful to most as they know how that feel will relate in their hands. Not the raw frequency at x" length in the shaft. If Wishon was the end all be all scale then why don't all OEM's provide a Wishon chart on their site, or something identical? They don't. Most have an EI scale and comment on butt, mid and tip stiffness

 

And you are a godsend to the masses? Your perceptions are good enough to give a rating for everyone? How do you propose we do that? Draw a name from a hat? How do you think OEMs do this? Have you personally asked them how they derive their data or are you just guessing as normal? You think they have a "master" tester that is the end-all-be-it-all decision maker for "feel". So that chart is more meaningful because it's a chart on an OEM's site to sell shafts and you have no idea where the information is derived from? You have proof their numbers are taken from feel?

 

Steps? what about stepless shafts. You even know why the steps are there? Lol

 

It's still hysterical that you think the EI charts and CPM charts are worlds apart. You quote EI charts and then say they are worlds better than CPM charts because they don't take measurements at certain points like CPM charts when they do the exact same thing. It's laughable. They are only that way because you still don't know what you are reading and how they compare. I still don't know why you keep bringing up a topic you know nothing about.

 

Wishon has EI as a tab in his software, why won't you show those? Those are the terms/charts people use to talk about shaft profiles. Embrace it. You'll make more of an impact!

 

Would you like me to? I can, but I don't see the purpose, as they won't justify your cause.

 

And I assume you have statistical data of those people and their discussions? Where's your poll? Pie charts maybe? We are not just talking about people in your own little world, and I'm not talking about people that do not understand how to read both, I am talking about people that actually understand what they are talking about.

[SAM_PGA]

Holy dear lord Golfrnut give it a break. This conversation sounds like two instructors nagging each other on how bad the other is and their instruction principles are all wrong. Keep on trucking Mark

[Golfrnut]

Holy dear lord Golfrnut give it a break. This conversation sounds like two instructors nagging each other on how bad the other is and their instruction principles are all wrong. Keep on trucking Mark

 

I was quoted since my original post(which was not a quote on anyone BTW)...and I am responding. There is an ignore function you are more than happy to use if you do not want to see my responses.

[SAM_PGA]

So who's gonna have the last comment....? And go!

[Golfrnut]

Anyone have experience with playing nippons 120 125 an inch longer? Is the flex a lot softer with the extra inch in length?

 

Would depend on how you ended up playing them. Returning heads to current swing weight? Leaving them alone with the current head weights? Tipping can also be looked at even if you needed it up to a certain extent.

 

They can be made to played softer, stiffer, or the same. The length does not necessarily make them softer.

[markheardjr]

He didn't reference any other shafts, nor did you...he asked what happens when the shaft is extended 1". You are attempting to interject information later into the discussion that was in no way part of the original discussion between what was being asked. It's easy to see you are altering the information to save yourself here.

 

He specifically asked about Tour120 (And Tour125.) Re-Read his question again.

 

I'll go ahead and ask it....how are you doing so? There aren't any that I have seen you reference shafts aside from graphed tip-butt comparisons, but absolutely no numerical values on them. So how are you comparing shafts from one graph to another to say that one is softer or stiffer?

 

By personal experience hitting damn near every single iron shaft ever made and having quite a good sense of feel between every shaft I have hit. And I am clearly open and honest about shafts I like, dislike, haven't hit yet, or am still on the fence about. Also by having hundreds of WRX posters, fellow golfers, OEM engineers & reps, etc tell me that I am spot on when I describe feel of shaft X Y or Z.

 

Steps? what about stepless shafts. You even know why the steps are there? Lol

 

 

I wasn't referring to steps in a shaft, I was referring to a step in flex, ie R is one step down from S which is one step down from X. Once again your flawed sense of understanding has shown brightly.

 

It's still hysterical that you think the EI charts and CPM charts are worlds apart. You quote EI charts and then say they are worlds better than CPM charts because they don't take measurements at certain points like CPM charts when they do the exact same thing. It's laughable. They are only that way because you still don't know what you are reading and how they compare. I still don't know why you keep bringing up a topic you know nothing about.

 

Would you like me to? I can, but I don't see the purpose, as they won't justify your cause.

And I assume you have statistical data of those people and their discussions? Where's your poll? Pie charts maybe? We are not just talking about people in your own little world, and I'm not talking about people that do not understand how to read both, I am talking about people that actually understand what they are talking about.

 

I dunno, maybe it's all the engineers and OEM reps, sales guys, VP's of companies that I have played with, talked to, communicated with, helped provide feedback too and all tend to tell me about a new shaft in terms of flex for butt, middle and tip. Flex you can order softer/stiffer. Profile is what matters to if it will work for you or not and implies feel and end result once you dial in stiffness desired. Graphite Design had a chart with 1-10 for butt, middle, stiff at the PGA Demo Day which I attended. Obviously there is some meaning to EI profiles if that is what you find on most shaft company websites or marketing materials. Seeing how the shaft moves down the line. You don't have to compare it exactly to frequency at each length. Although if you applied a little common sense to your charts, and could overlay Frequency on an EI profile chart you could possibly come up with a rosetta stone that speaks to both worlds.

[Buzzkill]

C'mon folks, play nice here!

[Gbxgold]

Anyone have experience with playing nippons 120 125 an inch longer? Is the flex a lot softer with the extra inch in length?

 

I have hit 125 +1" and didn't really notice too much difference. Tour120, the butt is the softest part so I think you may end up with a much softer feel because you're extending a softer part of the shaft and the longer shaft will be softer too. May want to go up a flex and softstep to the 1" over. Or even just play up a flex +1" no stepping at all.

 

Thank you for the reply and all the information you've provided in this topic it has been very informative. I like the idea of the tour120 x soft stepped. Going to order a shaft to test. Been concerned of to soft a flex an inch over. My miss is over cooking it as it is....but desperately searching for better feel ....been playing ti s400 just not a good fit for me personally..

[Gbxgold]

Anyone have experience with playing nippons 120 125 an inch longer? Is the flex a lot softer with the extra inch in length?

 

Would depend on how you ended up playing them. Returning heads to current swing weight? Leaving them alone with the current head weights? Tipping can also be looked at even if you needed it up to a certain extent.

 

They can be made to played softer, stiffer, or the same. The length does not necessarily make them softer.

 

Thank you for the feedback makes a lot of sense.

[markheardjr]

@ Golfrnut,

 

 

Go here http://www.fujikuragolf.com/woods/2016-speeder-pro/

model flex length weight tip flex butt flex torque par. tip butt dia bend pt spin launch 56 R2 46 63 141 105 4.3 2.5 .640 M/L M/H M 56 R 46 63 134 97 4.1 2.5 .640 M/L M/H M 56 S 46 64 125 89 3.9 2.5 .640 M M M 66 R 46 67 128 94 3.8 2.5 .640 M/L M/H M 66 S 46 68 117 87 3.6 2.5 .640 M/L M M 66 X 46 69 107 81 3.3 2.5 .640 M M M 66 Tour S 46 70 111 84 3.1 2.5 .640 M M M 66 Tour X 46 72 101 79 3.0 2.5 .640 M M/L M 76 S 46 78 110 83 3.3 2.5 .635 M/L M M 76 X 46 79 101 78 3.1 2.5 .635 M/L M M 76 Tour S 46 79 105 82 3.0 2.5 .635 M M M/L 76 Tour X 46 79 96 77 2.8 2.5 .635 M M/L M/L

 

Tell me, why is tip flex higher than butt flex?

 

 

Graphite Design says this about new GP Shaft:

http://proschoicegolfshafts.com/tour-ad-gp-shafts/

The Tour AD GP-5’s, 6’s, 7’s and 8’s are designed with a very stiff tip and stiffer mid to butt section to promote a mid-launch condition and low spin.

Bend Profile:

SHAFT TIP Section MID Section BUTT Section GP-4 SOFT SOFT MEDIUM GP-5, -6, -7, -8 VERY STIFF FIRM

FIRM+

 

 

Etc. I have to go home today and was too busy to get more. But there is plenty of charts and verbiage from many OEMs that use my lingo. But the purpose of discussing is to try to relate, or translate one company's chart to another based on personal experience with their products.

[Yarra]

Mark,

 

Currently playing the Prototype C10 and it's getting that heavy feel to my ageing body. Anything with similar bend profile but lighter? At the worse days, my attack angle seems on the plus side with irons. What do you think of the ORA? Thanks in advance.

Before you asked at the end I was already thinking ORA. C10 is also kind of similar to Tour125 with the stiffer butt, softer middle and stiffer tip. C10 I believe beefs up the butt and tip sections even more than Tour125 with more heft.

 

ORA vs. Tour125 I find the ORA to be a tad more demanding and a bit closer to an X100 than Tour125. Not as smooth but lower spin. Weight I think they are about the same, few grams if anything. Have you hit Tour125? I play the Tour125X in my irons and C10 S in my wedges and love them. Really blend together nicely. C10S irons players maybe try 125X soft-stepped and C10X maybe try 125X hard-stepped. C10S that thinks it's as low as they want to go flexwise maybe 125X straight in, vice versa C10X players looking to go a hair lighter and softer maybe 125X straight in.

 

I don't know, or have forgot exact weights of 2T15 and E11 but I think they are kind of similar profiles too, maybe 2T15 was lighter than E11? I want to say C10, 2T15, E11 and 2S14 were kind of similar in they were heavy and somewhat similar to DG/Tour125 type profile. Maybe a few minor differences here or there. 2F15 was completely different and was lighter and higher launch and spin. If anything, a touch more like a Tour105 or 1050 type.

 

Mark, thanks for your speedy reply. I will give the 125X soft-step a try. Still hunting for one of those ORA Prototype, as it is getting rarer these days. I am not sure about the 2T15 as I have not ever seen one but E11 is kinda similar to C10.

 

However, the 2S14 is a different beast. It is about 10 grams heavier and closer to PX 7.0 in many ways.

 

Now, do you have any protos for sale? I know which door to knock to try and get a new set, but this is purely for my experimental and curiosity purposes. I do not want to wreck a new set until I find the right type.

 

Thanks again, Mark.

[markheardjr]

Mark,

 

Currently playing the Prototype C10 and it's getting that heavy feel to my ageing body. Anything with similar bend profile but lighter? At the worse days, my attack angle seems on the plus side with irons. What do you think of the ORA? Thanks in advance.

Before you asked at the end I was already thinking ORA. C10 is also kind of similar to Tour125 with the stiffer butt, softer middle and stiffer tip. C10 I believe beefs up the butt and tip sections even more than Tour125 with more heft.

 

ORA vs. Tour125 I find the ORA to be a tad more demanding and a bit closer to an X100 than Tour125. Not as smooth but lower spin. Weight I think they are about the same, few grams if anything. Have you hit Tour125? I play the Tour125X in my irons and C10 S in my wedges and love them. Really blend together nicely. C10S irons players maybe try 125X soft-stepped and C10X maybe try 125X hard-stepped. C10S that thinks it's as low as they want to go flexwise maybe 125X straight in, vice versa C10X players looking to go a hair lighter and softer maybe 125X straight in.

 

I don't know, or have forgot exact weights of 2T15 and E11 but I think they are kind of similar profiles too, maybe 2T15 was lighter than E11? I want to say C10, 2T15, E11 and 2S14 were kind of similar in they were heavy and somewhat similar to DG/Tour125 type profile. Maybe a few minor differences here or there. 2F15 was completely different and was lighter and higher launch and spin. If anything, a touch more like a Tour105 or 1050 type.

 

Mark, thanks for your speedy reply. I will give the 125X soft-step a try. Still hunting for one of those ORA Prototype, as it is getting rarer these days. I am not sure about the 2T15 as I have not ever seen one but E11 is kinda similar to C10.

 

However, the 2S14 is a different beast. It is about 10 grams heavier and closer to PX 7.0 in many ways.

 

Now, do you have any protos for sale? I know which door to knock to try and get a new set, but this is purely for my experimental and curiosity purposes. I do not want to wreck a new set until I find the right type.

 

Thanks again, Mark.

 

Hah, I'm hording!!! I still have 2 sets of 2S14 stiff, ST Proto, ORA X, C10 S and X, some random 2F15 wedges, and a hush hush set can't talk about! (Not LSL FYI.) I don't have my 2G18's anymore, someone has them on ebay right now! haha. Also got rid of my 2S14 in X, just too much shaft for me. Crazy beasts of nature only apply to those.

[markheardjr]

oh man, it lost one of my post replies...or it was deleted? Spend forever messing with all those stupid quotes. Oh well. Wasn't really worth the effort anyways. Edit, never mind, seems info lost on both sides. Touche for another day.

[Yarra]

Mark,

 

Currently playing the Prototype C10 and it's getting that heavy feel to my ageing body. Anything with similar bend profile but lighter? At the worse days, my attack angle seems on the plus side with irons. What do you think of the ORA? Thanks in advance.

Before you asked at the end I was already thinking ORA. C10 is also kind of similar to Tour125 with the stiffer butt, softer middle and stiffer tip. C10 I believe beefs up the butt and tip sections even more than Tour125 with more heft.

 

ORA vs. Tour125 I find the ORA to be a tad more demanding and a bit closer to an X100 than Tour125. Not as smooth but lower spin. Weight I think they are about the same, few grams if anything. Have you hit Tour125? I play the Tour125X in my irons and C10 S in my wedges and love them. Really blend together nicely. C10S irons players maybe try 125X soft-stepped and C10X maybe try 125X hard-stepped. C10S that thinks it's as low as they want to go flexwise maybe 125X straight in, vice versa C10X players looking to go a hair lighter and softer maybe 125X straight in.

 

I don't know, or have forgot exact weights of 2T15 and E11 but I think they are kind of similar profiles too, maybe 2T15 was lighter than E11? I want to say C10, 2T15, E11 and 2S14 were kind of similar in they were heavy and somewhat similar to DG/Tour125 type profile. Maybe a few minor differences here or there. 2F15 was completely different and was lighter and higher launch and spin. If anything, a touch more like a Tour105 or 1050 type.

 

Mark, thanks for your speedy reply. I will give the 125X soft-step a try. Still hunting for one of those ORA Prototype, as it is getting rarer these days. I am not sure about the 2T15 as I have not ever seen one but E11 is kinda similar to C10.

 

However, the 2S14 is a different beast. It is about 10 grams heavier and closer to PX 7.0 in many ways.

 

Now, do you have any protos for sale? I know which door to knock to try and get a new set, but this is purely for my experimental and curiosity purposes. I do not want to wreck a new set until I find the right type.

 

Thanks again, Mark.

 

Hah, I'm hording!!! I still have 2 sets of 2S14 stiff, ST Proto, ORA X, C10 S and X, some random 2F15 wedges, and a hush hush set can't talk about! (Not LSL FYI.) I don't have my 2G18's anymore, someone has them on ebay right now! haha. Also got rid of my 2S14 in X, just too much shaft for me. Crazy beasts of nature only apply to those.

 

Anything you wanna let go, kindly PM me. Especially interested in the ORA and that random 2F15 wedges. Extremely interested in that hush hush set we can't talk about. LOL! The 2G18s are the 130s, are they not?

[NRJyzr]

Tell me, why is tip flex higher than butt flex?

 

 

Likely, it's beam length. Just as the CPM readings of shaft profiles that have been posted, they're applying the bending force to only the bottom X length of the shaft. The butt flex is measured by clamping the butt end and applying the bending force at the tip end, much farther away from the clamp mechanism than when they're measuring tip deflection or frequency.

 

If you want to see the difference from clamping the butt with the weight at the tip and clamping the tip while applying the weight at the butt, check Hireko's DSFI. FWIW, the amount of force to produce the desired deflection is considerably less for shafts clamped at the tip than those clamped at the butt.

 

With apologies for stepping in the middle....

[Golfrnut]

@ Golfrnut,

Go here http://www.fujikurag...16-speeder-pro/

 

Tell me, why is tip flex higher than butt flex?

 

What method are they using to chart the numbers. Deflection board? Some form of EI? How much of it is considered the butt section and how much the tip? There are so many unanswered questions/possibilities about that chart that there is no way of knowing how they get those numbers and what ratio is going to apply. Are they saying how they get those numbers somewhere on the website that I am missing? If it's deflection, the chart could easily be saying that the tip moves more than the butt and therefor has the higher number? But are they doing it that way? It's nothing more than a guess.

 

 

Graphite Design says this about new GP Shaft:

http://proschoicegol...r-ad-gp-shafts/

The Tour AD GP-5’s, 6’s, 7’s and 8’s are designed with a very stiff tip and stiffer mid to butt section to promote a mid-launch condition and low spin.

Bend Profile:

SHAFT TIP Section MID Section BUTT Section GP-4 SOFT SOFT MEDIUM GP-5, -6, -7, -8 VERY STIFF FIRM

FIRM+

 

 

Etc. I have to go home today and was too busy to get more. But there is plenty of charts and verbiage from many OEMs that use my lingo. But the purpose of discussing is to try to relate, or translate one company's chart to another based on personal experience with their products.

 

 

Stiffer to what? Firm to what? Going off who's opinion or what measured data? This is the issue. I'm going to be honest, GDs website lost me years ago...and I play the AD DI. When I started learning this stuff 5 years or so ago, and was enlightened as to what and what does not happen vs what you see on websites selling shafts, I started ignoring it all. The fact that they are still trying to say that a shaft can alter launch and spin independently when it doesn't even touch a golf still tells me that they have a long way to go. If you don't believe that to be false, I can provide plenty of quotes from people, to include True Temper's member account here that is on my side.

 

As I have always said, I don't like using "feel" as a way to try and discuss properties of a shaft. Some people do, and that's fine, it's a matter of opinion. But as an example, I will use DG. Would you say, in terms of feel, that X100 is softer than S300? I will. X100 feels better, and softer to me. Does that make it so? Absolutely not. Would most people agree with me? No. Feel is so subjective, and can be so misleading, that it's a crap shoot as to whether there is really any benefit to gain outside of the person doing the testing IMO. My swing patters, my load, my release timing/feel are all my respective qualities, and they only belong to me. It all comes down to the "feel vs real".

 

If you notice, this is why the few of us that post some of these charts do not do so with only one shaft. They are posted in groups for comparison. Even still, they do not say a whole lot unless a person has swung at least one of the shafts to have a reference point to choose from. And it's never a guarantee that results will translate to what any chart say. I.E. see my opinion above with regards to DG when it comes to feel vs what's on the chart.

 

If you really want to compare, you have to have an even testing ground, and do the tests the exact same way, with the same equipment to be valid. This is where databases come into play. It would be outstanding if there were other databases out there, be it EI charts, CPM, etc that quantify multiple shafts using the same conditions and same equipment. Ryden kind of does it, but there are no databases, and there is no numerical data within those charts to make them useful across multiple charts and multiple shafts. Could he do it? Probably, but he does not. Therefor, choices/options to do anything like that are extremely limited.

 

If you want to do with with EI charts, you have about 1 solid option...purchase a machine and ask all the OEMs out there to send you shaft samples for you to measure and build a database from which to pull from.

[Golfrnut]

Tell me, why is tip flex higher than butt flex?

 

 

Likely, it's beam length. Just as the CPM readings of shaft profiles that have been posted, they're applying the bending force to only the bottom X length of the shaft. The butt flex is measured by clamping the butt end and applying the bending force at the tip end, much farther away from the clamp mechanism than when they're measuring tip deflection or frequency.

 

If you want to see the difference from clamping the butt with the weight at the tip and clamping the tip while applying the weight at the butt, check Hireko's DSFI. FWIW, the amount of force to produce the desired deflection is considerably less for shafts clamped at the tip than those clamped at the butt.

 

With apologies for stepping in the middle....

 

100% agree with you...

 

But we are only just guessing.

[32quattro]

Ordered 3 single shaft for testing. Went back and forward trying to understand which profile was better for me but decided to choose the slow way.

 

Ordered modus tour 125 S/ tour 105 X/ tour 105 S.

Hitting very well 1150gh tour stiff on a mp25 demo 6 iron, against wind balloons slightly. Px 5.5 flys better but love nippon feel. Thanks to Mark and boys for your help

[GC70]

Ordered 3 single shaft for testing. Went back and forward trying to understand which profile was better for me but decided to choose the slow way.

 

Ordered modus tour 125 S/ tour 105 X/ tour 105 S.

Hitting very well 1150gh tour stiff on a mp25 demo 6 iron, against wind balloons slightly. Px 5.5 flys better but love nippon feel. Thanks to Mark and boys for your help

I agree You can't go wrong with the Nippon feel. If the PX felt like the Modus I'd be on cloud nine. Can't wait to hear your results!

[GC70]

I got my 105's in the other day, one practice session on Wednesday and 18 on Thursday. Cold and really windy both days. I wasn't swing the best!

I've been playing the 120's stiff for the last 4 years and before that PX 6.0 and 5.5's. I love everything about the PX except I started getting elbow problems from them so made the switch to 120's.

 

I love everything about the 120's except they'd spin too much and fly higher then the PX. So the jury is still out on the 105's, need more time with them to give a good review and comparison. So far I really don't notice that the 105's are lighter. They definitely fly lower then the 120's. I don't feel that kick i do with the 120's. They feel stiffer then the 120's and they definitely don't move side to side as much as the 120's.

 

[32quattro]

I got my 105's in the other day, one practice session on Wednesday and 18 on Thursday. Cold and really windy both days. I wasn't swing the best!

I've been playing the 120's stiff for the last 4 years and before that PX 6.0 and 5.5's. I love everything about the PX except I started getting elbow problems from them so made the switch to 120's.

 

I love everything about the 120's except they'd spin too much and fly higher then the PX. So the jury is still out on the 105's, need more time with them to give a good review and comparison. So far I really don't notice that the 105's are lighter. They definitely fly lower then the 120's. I don't feel that kick i do with the 120's. They feel stiffer then the 120's and they definitely don't move side to side as much as the 120's.

even if on paper I should fit in with 105 stiff I chose to test the 105 X because of the weight difference. I will soft step them and compare with 105 s and 125 s. It will take maybe a month but won't stop first impression. Need to check how they work on half swing, hard swing, bump and run, bunker explosion, punch fade to tight pin and so on. Was going to buy a set straight up but decided not to.

[MJisGOAT]

Mark,

 

Anymore updates on the modus proto you tested (release date)?

[AWE46M3]

I got my 105's in the other day, one practice session on Wednesday and 18 on Thursday. Cold and really windy both days. I wasn't swing the best!

I've been playing the 120's stiff for the last 4 years and before that PX 6.0 and 5.5's. I love everything about the PX except I started getting elbow problems from them so made the switch to 120's.

 

I love everything about the 120's except they'd spin too much and fly higher then the PX. So the jury is still out on the 105's, need more time with them to give a good review and comparison. So far I really don't notice that the 105's are lighter. They definitely fly lower then the 120's. I don't feel that kick i do with the 120's. They feel stiffer then the 120's and they definitely don't move side to side as much as the 120's.

 

Have you tried the 130? Everything seems to suggest that would be the most comparable to the PX. I'm a PX guy but want to get into a different shaft in my next set of irons; I like the ball flight but can't stand the feel. I tried the 120 and they seemed to launch really high and balloon worse than DGs, for me anyway.

[PapaJohick]

I have these in the BST but just in case anyone in here could help me out, I have a set of 105x in 4-GW I am trying to find a trade for the 105S either 3-PW or 4-GW.

 

PM me