What if most of what you know about irons is wrong?

[oldschoolrocker]

Nova, who still plays persimmons...lots of folks on this side of the site.

[nova6868]

[quote name='oldschoolrocker' timestamp='1430313839' post='11464739']
Nova, who still plays persimmons...lots of folks on this side of the site.
[/quote]

Yes, you are right. Hey, I still like persimmons and classic clubs. They're awesome. But for nostalgia and enjoyment. Haven't seen anyone using persimmon and winning a local amateur tournament, let alone a pro tournament.

[scomac2002]

[quote name='nova6868' timestamp='1430312213' post='11464527']
Woods... Yes. Who still plays persimmons or even 250cc drivers? The new ones are definitely better.
[/quote]

Longer yes, but definitely better might be more difficult to quantify. Has driving accuracy improved? Has consistency improved? There must be PGA Tour data supporting the gains. AS far as being definitely better for the average weekend hack, that's almost impossible to quantify beyond the anecdotal evidence of testamonials, computer test results and fitting results. Theoretically new drivers should be better, but once you factor in the negative effects of certain design parameters that make it more difficult to make center contact -- extreme light weight and extreme shaft length -- the advantages can be quickly lost on those with less than consistently repeatable swings.

[oldschoolrocker]

Nova,
True, the game has morphed and most of the younger Lions out there now have rarely seen a persimmon, let alone struck a ball with one.

[NRJyzr]

[quote name='nova6868' timestamp='1430314076' post='11464765']
[quote name='oldschoolrocker' timestamp='1430313839' post='11464739']
Nova, who still plays persimmons...lots of folks on this side of the site.
[/quote]

Yes, you are right. Hey, I still like persimmons and classic clubs. They're awesome. But for nostalgia and enjoyment. Haven't seen anyone using persimmon and winning a local amateur tournament, let alone a pro tournament.
[/quote]


Before ultimately chasing the money, Bob Estes used a Louisville Smart Driver on the PGA Tour for a while....

[HoganApexBlades]

[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1430315702' post='11464943']
[quote name='nova6868' timestamp='1430314076' post='11464765']
[quote name='oldschoolrocker' timestamp='1430313839' post='11464739']
Nova, who still plays persimmons...lots of folks on this side of the site.
[/quote]

Yes, you are right. Hey, I still like persimmons and classic clubs. They're awesome. But for nostalgia and enjoyment. Haven't seen anyone using persimmon and winning a local amateur tournament, let alone a pro tournament.
[/quote]


Before ultimately chasing the money, Bob Estes used a Louisville Smart Driver on the PGA Tour for a while....
[/quote]

I have an almost new one myself which unfortunately has a Regular graphite shaft and is too whippy for my swing. I guess I either slow way down or unload it.

[Pigems]

[quote name='HoganApexBlades' timestamp='1430316976' post='11465083']
[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1430315702' post='11464943']
[quote name='nova6868' timestamp='1430314076' post='11464765']
[quote name='oldschoolrocker' timestamp='1430313839' post='11464739']
Nova, who still plays persimmons...lots of folks on this side of the site.
[/quote]

Yes, you are right. Hey, I still like persimmons and classic clubs. They're awesome. But for nostalgia and enjoyment. Haven't seen anyone using persimmon and winning a local amateur tournament, let alone a pro tournament.
[/quote]


Before ultimately chasing the money, Bob Estes used a Louisville Smart Driver on the PGA Tour for a while....
[/quote]

I have an almost new one myself which unfortunately has a Regular graphite shaft and is too whippy for my swing. I guess I either slow way down or unload it.
[/quote]

The shaft can't be swapped out for a firmer one?? No need to sell sir

[NRJyzr]

[quote name='HoganApexBlades' timestamp='1430316976' post='11465083']
[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1430315702' post='11464943']
[quote name='nova6868' timestamp='1430314076' post='11464765']
[quote name='oldschoolrocker' timestamp='1430313839' post='11464739']
Nova, who still plays persimmons...lots of folks on this side of the site.
[/quote]

Yes, you are right. Hey, I still like persimmons and classic clubs. They're awesome. But for nostalgia and enjoyment. Haven't seen anyone using persimmon and winning a local amateur tournament, let alone a pro tournament.
[/quote]


Before ultimately chasing the money, Bob Estes used a Louisville Smart Driver on the PGA Tour for a while....
[/quote]

I have an almost new one myself which unfortunately has a Regular graphite shaft and is too whippy for my swing. I guess I either slow way down or unload it.
[/quote]


I ran into the same problem with the one I had. Wound up getting it reshafted and rather like it.

I *did* finally take it on the course last weekend, played 9 holes with the wife on Sunday.

Unfortunately, it was no more accurate than what I've been using. You know what that means.... Yes, I'm afflicted with "crappy swing syndrome" LOL

[Fellaheen51]

[quote name='nova6868' timestamp='1430312213' post='11464527']
Woods... Yes. Who still plays persimmons or even 250cc drivers? The new ones are definitely better.
[/quote]

Persimmons have already been addressed. Isn't there a thread (perhaps multiple) discussing mini-drivers? Are they not in the 250cc size range? Not wanting to drift to far from the topic at hand, but another example of "of what's old, becomes new" if you just wait long enough.

Isn't what the new Hogan company trying to do here somewhat the same approach? I submit that they are taking a recognized name with a certain cache (by some), putting a modern design spin onto what is fundamentally an old(er) one and coupling it with a marketing strategy that suggests (IMO) we need to rediscover this form of iron construct because it had merit. Back to the future?

I applaud them for their effort. Hope they are very successful. If for no other reason than to bring about a little truth in advertising for the golf industry. Maybe.

[farmer]

One of the most enduring myths that the OP mentions is that these blades will "force" you into becoming a better ball striker. Unless you are a low hdcp player with a good swing, what they force you into doing is thinking about how, rather than where. If you have some innate ability, the time, money and energy to spend really working on your game, you will be a better ball striker with these irons. Given the same parameters, you will be a better ball striker with anything. The Hogan company will be a niche brand that will struggle, not being bladey enough for the blade aficionados, nor GI enough for the GI guys.

[Bad9]

There was certainly alot more buzz about how great they were before there were actually clubs available. There have been a few reviews here since the clubs were released but not a large amount. I wonder if the guys who said they would buy a set based solely on the name(and there were some in one of the early threads) actually did.

[Fellaheen51]

There are those who will purchase a product based on exclusivity factor alone. Example being JDM irons. Are they really that much better than non to warrent a doubling in the cost to purchase. Or has an "aura" about them been created that says if one is going to spend twice as much for something they have to be better? Maybe posting out of turn because I've never hit one, but I think not.

Edit Note: Maybe the JDM stuff is the market niche that the Hogan company is targeting? In which case, their design strategy and pricing structure puts them in favorable position vis-a-vis the competition. JDM users seem to be "bladey" sort of golfers.

[HoganApexBlades]

[quote name='Pigems' timestamp='1430317156' post='11465113']
[quote name='HoganApexBlades' timestamp='1430316976' post='11465083']
[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1430315702' post='11464943']
[quote name='nova6868' timestamp='1430314076' post='11464765']
[quote name='oldschoolrocker' timestamp='1430313839' post='11464739']
Nova, who still plays persimmons...lots of folks on this side of the site.
[/quote]

Yes, you are right. Hey, I still like persimmons and classic clubs. They're awesome. But for nostalgia and enjoyment. Haven't seen anyone using persimmon and winning a local amateur tournament, let alone a pro tournament.
[/quote]


Before ultimately chasing the money, Bob Estes used a Louisville Smart Driver on the PGA Tour for a while....
[/quote]

I have an almost new one myself which unfortunately has a Regular graphite shaft and is too whippy for my swing. I guess I either slow way down or unload it.
[/quote]

The shaft can't be swapped out for a firmer one?? No need to sell sir
[/quote]

I probably could but I only have about $1.99 invested in the club itself (another Thrift store find), so I'm not sure it is worth it to have it re-shafted.

[Texsport]

[quote name='Bad9' timestamp='1430313544' post='11464697']
[quote name='Shambles' timestamp='1430274833' post='11462773']. Nothing really new in the ad involved other than their V sole technology and even then it would not surprise me too much if someone came out with an example from way back.


Shambles
[/quote]

I played Zero Tolerance Z Wedges back in 2002-2003 and they had this exact same sole. This was before Eidolon, Scor and maybe even Reid Lockhart. So you are right it is not new or unique.
[/quote]



Big misconception raging here!

The grind isn't like a Tour Striker, or some gimmick club - it's much more subtle than that.

I've hit the irons and they're sweet.

Texsport

[vtnerf]

The hammer analogy...
There is a fault with it, as I see it. If you assume the center of mass is in the middle of the handle/head connection, the we can proceed... The center of the mass is well behind the ball/nail when struck with the head. When struck with the side, the center of mass is much closer to the ball/nail. There is a different dynamic going on. Arc, attack, approach, momentum, transfer of energy. Just saying that it gets the thought out there, but it's flawed. I do agree that mass BEHIND the ball, in the middle of the club will force a player to hit it better. And those sticks won't be for the faint of heart or anyone above a high single. The weight has move "out" to the perimeter for forgiveness. To be able to repeat the results time after time, no matter where you strike the ball on the club face. It was never about making "better" player's clubs. It was about negating the odd-ball results. It became more point-and-shoot. With consistently repeatable results. Purist will hate it. Blade-lovers will hate it. Golfers that want to shoot better scores without caring what their irons look like or having to put in marathon range sessions and lessons upon lessons will like it.

As for the lofts versus #'s, I couldn't care less. I don't care if they are called Becky, Susan, Gina. I have to pull whatever club will hit the ball the correct distance FOR ME to get the result I want. Doesn't matter if it's a weak 6, strong 8, 34*, or Amy iron. It's all about the score at the end of the day.

[mikpga]

I wonder if tennis rackets will adopt this approach...

[Bad9]

[quote name='Texsport' timestamp='1430333975' post='11467173']
[quote name='Bad9' timestamp='1430313544' post='11464697']
[quote name='Shambles' timestamp='1430274833' post='11462773']. Nothing really new in the ad involved other than their V sole technology and even then it would not surprise me too much if someone came out with an example from way back.


Shambles
[/quote]

I played Zero Tolerance Z Wedges back in 2002-2003 and they had this exact same sole. This was before Eidolon, Scor and maybe even Reid Lockhart. So you are right it is not new or unique.
[/quote]



Big misconception raging here!

The grind isn't like a Tour Striker, or some gimmick club - it's much more subtle than that.

I've hit the irons and they're sweet.

Texsport
[/quote]

What misconception? I never mentioned the Tour Striker. The sole looks just like the Scor and the Eidolon (which I have seen in person and hit) which is pretty much exactly the same as the Z Wedge I mentioned. The sole grind is not new or unique nor did I say it was a gimmick. Seems to me you are the one with raging misconceptions.

[NRJyzr]

[quote name='Bad9' timestamp='1430335449' post='11467349']
The sole looks just like the Scor and the Eidolon (which I have seen in person and hit) which is pretty much exactly the same as the Z Wedge I mentioned.
[/quote]


Since Terry Koehler is the force behind the new Hogan, and came from Scor, and before that Eidolon, and before that Reid Lockhart, all of which used this sole shape...

it stands to reason it would be just like those.

[Bad9]

[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1430336385' post='11467475']
[quote name='Bad9' timestamp='1430335449' post='11467349']
The sole looks just like the Scor and the Eidolon (which I have seen in person and hit) which is pretty much exactly the same as the Z Wedge I mentioned.
[/quote]


Since Terry Koehler is the force behind the new Hogan, and came from Scor, and before that Eidolon, and before that Reid Lockhart, all of which used this sole shape...

it stands to reason it would be just like those.
[/quote]

Yes it does. You probably remember all the chatter about ZT back in the early 2000's, mostly the Crown Jewel drivers but the wedges got lots of talk too, largely because of the sole. I bought the half dozen or so I had over the years on GEA which is where I learned of them in the first place. Don't see what my raging misconception was, other than I wasn't tooting the horn of the new Hogan. I had Apex Plus back when they were current and they would be a good release today. Mine was the only set I ever saw on the course.

[NRJyzr]

I do remember the Zero Tolerance excitement. I have had, and still have, really, several different ZT clubs. Including 54° and 58° wedges with that sole shape.

Reid Lockhart had already been around for quite a while back then, so I've always wondered if there was some form of agreement between the two companies regarding the sole...

[Bad9]

[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1430337143' post='11467571']
I do remember the Zero Tolerance excitement. I have had, and still have, really, several different ZT clubs. Including 54° and 58° wedges with that sole shape.

Reid Lockhart had already been around for quite a while back then, so I've always wondered if there was some form of agreement between the two companies regarding the sole...
[/quote]

That 58 is the best lob wedge I ever hit. Of course I sold it. Twice.

[Wknd_Warrior]

[quote name='farmer' timestamp='1430328893' post='11466615']
One of the most enduring myths that the OP mentions is that these blades will "force" you into becoming a better ball striker.
[/quote]

I think this is open to debate, I wish you guys would stop trying to hand wave it into mythology, sure it depends on a lot, so does everything else.

A bold step forward in iron design IMO, I applaud.

the hammer analogy is interesting. A slight mishit with a hammer will deflect but still transfer a lot of force. Not sure a club head reacts the same way. I think the main problem with the hammer on it's side, and with a novice, ie, not a carpenter, is energy lost with the hammer twisting in your hand. Again, not sure the degree of relevance.

These are questions for a physics student. I don't think it's as simple as the marketing we've been hearing for a decade or two makes it out to be.

If they would just show us the robot test results!!!

[Pigems]

[quote name='Bad9' timestamp='1430337534' post='11467619']
[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1430337143' post='11467571']
I do remember the Zero Tolerance excitement. I have had, and still have, really, several different ZT clubs. Including 54° and 58° wedges with that sole shape.

Reid Lockhart had already been around for quite a while back then, so I've always wondered if there was some form of agreement between the two companies regarding the sole...
[/quote]

That 58 is the best lob wedge I ever hit. Of course I sold it. Twice.
[/quote]

I did that with a set of Mizzy TP-9's, traded them in at the end of one summer and then bought them back in the spring. then I sold them on the BST and there gone for good now. Though there is another set on there now

[stevemcgee99]

Man it's interesting how much debate and controversy new clubs can evoke. But nobody gives a hoot whether I say my Hogan PC or Wilson Dynapowered is better for me.

[Pigems]

Maybe a Tennis Racket would be a better comparison than the hammer to modern GI irons?? Perimeter weighted with a spring like face, Wouldn't that make more sense?

[birly-shirly]

[quote name='vtnerf' timestamp='1430335054' post='11467307']
The hammer analogy...
There is a fault with it, as I see it. If you assume the center of mass is in the middle of the handle/head connection, the we can proceed... The center of the mass is well behind the ball/nail when struck with the head. When struck with the side, the center of mass is much closer to the ball/nail. There is a different dynamic going on. Arc, attack, approach, momentum, transfer of energy. Just saying that it gets the thought out there, but it's flawed.[...]
[/quote]

I don't think I've really heard anyone defend or explain the hammer analogy - and I do think it's flawed. As far as I can make out, the only problem with a hammer turned sideways is that it's not obvious where its CoG is for a sideways blow, whereas it's perfectly obvious that it sits squarely behind the face when swung conventionally. A little bit of tapping though, and some paint to mark the spot, and I think a sideways hammer would deliver exactly the same amount of force - no more, no less.

I have a theory about the new Hogan company. Terry Koehler is one of the guys who launched the whole "blades are game improvement clubs" meme on the internet. I'm sure he had no idea how the idea would be received when he first blogged about it - but it touched a nerve and flared up all across the net. It just seems to have become one of those persuasive and pervasive ideas that people have flocked to. I think seeing the reception and growth of that idea may be what persuaded TK that there was a fresh market for blades bearing the Hogan name - marketed to ordinary golfers, and maybe side-stepping the usual tour endorsement marketing budget.

I think that line of thinking feeds into the shonky hammer analogy, the 16-capper shot-shapers and like marketing. None of which makes the clubs themselves rubbish, but everyone has a marketing line and this seems to be Koehler's.

FWIW - yeah, I play blades. Old-ish Hogans at that. Not because I think they improve my swing, but because I like them, they fit me, and I think the benefits of cavity-backs are somewhat exaggerated at a recreational level of play.

[bullrambler]

Find an older PW or SW that has a dynamic shaft and a swing weight of about E. Take it to the course and hit some balls out of the rough. Man does a club like that ever get through the rough with ease. I stick with older lofts and heavier weighted irons - which are weaker then the newer stuff and have no problem pounding the "hammers" into the back of the ball. I loose very little distance and keep a better tempo with that kind of set-up. In my way of thinking the new Hogan design (while nice) when compared to the Ram muscle back - I favor the Rams.

On another note - With more modern heads, I like to compare shafts. Mostly steel shafts and as long is the head has minimum offset I'm good to go. I try and get the feel of how the shaft performs and envision what a set might play like. I prefer 7 and 6 irons because that's about the mid-point of a set of irons. I favor the 6 iron because it takes a bit more skill to hit it well and this is where most shafts run out of gas when one is swinging at their full shot potential. If the shaft is too soft in a 6 iron but ok in a 7 iron I know I need to go up in stiffness. It's a simple test and I do it as often as I can. Rather then re-shaft I look for stiff or X flex shafts. I can work with them. I recently picked up a new Callaway forged 6 iron with a Project X 6.5 flighted shaft in it. I bent it 2* flat from standard and was hitting a draw. The shaft was really nice to hit. If I was going to re-shaft a set it would be with these shafts. They felt that good - with next to no lag. After I was done hitting this club I went and checked swing weight on this 6 iron. It's a Rifle 6.5 flighted shaft and some may consider measuring the Swing weight as a no-no by Rifle Shaft purists. I measured the swing weight after I hit about 60 balls with it. It was just shy of D-5. That's right where I feel the starting point is when one is seeking to find the potential of a shaft and when it work's the best.

[BIG STU]

[quote name='Fellaheen51' timestamp='1430306496' post='11464071']
Ever since I saw the new Hogans, couldn't get the similarity out of my mind. Different yes, but how much different?

[attachment=2735147:image.jpg][attachment=2735149:image.jpg]
[/quote]I am glad to see I was not the only one thinking that. The one thing that impressed me on the new Hogan irons was that someone stated on another thread that you could not get them with oversize grips from the factory. That tells me that they are building a perfectly balanced club and that says a lot. I have gotten into the perfectly balanced club thing in the last year with regards to naked head weight,shaft weight and grip weight. My friend who is one of the best craftsmen I have ever seen educated me on that when he built my new irons last year. If you look at any of the new equipment catalogs (Maltby or Hireko) you will see weights listed with info on grips. And then you have counterbalancing on clubs as well as putters then of course you have the old lead tape gurus like myself. The new Hogan clubs look good in pics but I am one of those who have to see and feel them in person to form an absolute opinion

[BIG STU]

[quote name='bullrambler' timestamp='1430343986' post='11468307']
Find an older PW or SW that has a dynamic shaft and a swing weight of about E. Take it to the course and hit some balls out of the rough. Man does a club like that ever get through the rough with ease. I stick with older lofts and heavier weighted irons - which are weaker then the newer stuff and have no problem pounding the "hammers" into the back of the ball. I loose very little distance and keep a better tempo with that kind of set-up. In my way of thinking the new Hogan design (while nice) when compared to the Ram muscle back - I favor the Rams.

On another note - With more modern heads, I like to compare shafts. Mostly steel shafts and as long is the head has minimum offset I'm good to go. I try and get the feel of how the shaft performs and envision what a set might play like. I prefer 7 and 6 irons because that's about the mid-point of a set of irons. I favor the 6 iron because it takes a bit more skill to hit it well and this is where most shafts run out of gas when one is swinging at their full shot potential. If the shaft is too soft in a 6 iron but ok in a 7 iron I know I need to go up in stiffness. It's a simple test and I do it as often as I can. Rather then re-shaft I look for stiff or X flex shafts. I can work with them. I recently picked up a new Callaway forged 6 iron with a Project X 6.5 flighted shaft in it. I bent it 2* flat from standard and was hitting a draw. The shaft was really nice to hit. If I was going to re-shaft a set it would be with these shafts. They felt that good - with next to no lag. After I was done hitting this club I went and checked swing weight on this 6 iron. It's a Rifle 6.5 flighted shaft and some may be consider measuring the Swing weight is a no-no by Rifle Shaft purists. I measured it after I hit about 60 balls with it. It was just shy of D-5. That's right where I feel the starting point is when one is seeking to find the potential of a shaft and when it work's the best.
[/quote]I will throw one more question in the equation. What is the gram weight of the naked head? You know different shafts will always react differently with different head weights and you will get different swing weights with different shafts and even grips. It can be tricky but it sounds like that 6 iron and shaft combo works good for you. I have a swing weight machine I have had for years but I hardly use it. For my stuff I go by feel. If I build a set for someone I will test build a 6 or 7 iron knowing what all components weigh and let them hit it and go from there.

[BIG STU]

[quote name='Fellaheen51' timestamp='1430331976' post='11466941']
There are those who will purchase a product based on exclusivity factor alone. Example being JDM irons. Are they really that much better than non to warrent a doubling in the cost to purchase. Or has an "aura" about them been created that says if one is going to spend twice as much for something they have to be better? Maybe posting out of turn because I've never hit one, but I think not.

Edit Note: Maybe the JDM stuff is the market niche that the Hogan company is targeting? In which case, their design strategy and pricing structure puts them in favorable position vis-a-vis the competition. JDM users seem to be "bladey" sort of golfers.
[/quote]One of the things about JDM irons especially Miuras is who builds them and how they build them. But that can be said for any custom club or even a re engineered older club. Miuras do have a good feel to me but they do not feel any softer than say a Mizuno or my Infiniti irons either. Several Miura players and Mizuno players have hit my irons and said mine feel as soft as either one. It does start with the right metal process but it is in how the final assembly is done