USGA Proposes to Modernize Rules of Golf

[Augster]

The lower, roughly 1" drop is to stop the nonsense I go through most every time. I want to place the ball, so I always try to drop where it will hop forward, closer to the hole than my NPR, twice. Then place it.

 

This new rule will get rid of that. I can still try to get it to jump forward, but it ends up in endless redrops. No placing.

 

For me, I know exactly where I want it to end up. Dropping from shoulder height is very random. Dropping close to the ground, I can drop and most likely get a good lie, but there is still more randomness than PLACING it on top of long grass in the rough.

 

Ultimately, I think the change was to bring in compliance your average golfer that just "throws one down" in casual play, but then does it in league play or tourney play and gets called on it. It puts everyone witnessing his illegal drop in an awkward spot where they need to tell a grown man that he needs to play by the rules. Now those casual drops will also be legal, even by accident.

 

The 1" drop will save me all the time I'll waste by hitting more provisionals because of the 3-minute search time.

 

Really though, these rules just make the game easier for bad players, which is like 99% of us, the golfing public. Your good player that just hits it down the middle, puts it on the green and two-putts will not be affected by nearly all these changes.

 

Lastly, whining about the grooves? Still? OMG. The grooves make ZERO difference and if you look at the data, you can make the case the new grooves make scoring easier.

 

How many 59's were shot on tour before the groove change? 3. Geiberger, Beck, and Duval in 1999. Then 11 years nobody shot 59 or better. Since the groove rule started in 2010 there have been 5 59's and a 58.

 

If you can't score, it's certainly not the grooves.

 

From '77 to 2009, 32years, the world's best, only carded 3 59's. From 2010 to 2017, 7 years (and barely that it's only March) there have been 6 scores of 59 or better.

 

The "groove rule controversy" is an old dead horse that needs to be put out to pasture. It's been 7 years.

 

 

it isnt about wanting sharper grooves... its about the hundreds of iron sets and wedge shapes that are nolonger made and were made illegal for zero reason by the usga... Take titleist for example ..always used V grooves in their blades, yet anything older than around 2002ish wasnt tested for the groove list and therefore is illegal... the only solution is to ship your set for testing to the usga lab... I have sent in 2 "illegal" titleist sets and both passed and i was issue a certificate that they conform..... but pre groove rule that hassel didnt have to happen... now it is the norm ... alternative being buy new..( which i think was the end goal to begin with) .... so you see the groove rant isnt guys wanting to rip balls back on the greens... its about the illegal clubs it created that once tested arent even illegal..... its the hypocrisy of it all...then there are the grandfathered square groove ping irons...so we have "legal" illegal grooves and "illegal" yet tested legal grooves.... clear as mud ..yes?

 

I have no idea what you are going on about. You want to play ancient clubs in high level competitions? That's the only time they'd be "illegal".

 

I'd be willing to bet this problem affects nearly nobody. You'd be the exception, of course.

 

 

[Augster]

The one I see slowing down play more then speeding it up is the flag rule. I'm guessing there will end up being guys that always want to leave it in unattended and guys that always want it out. Meaning I can see multiple times a hole the flag being taken out and put back in.

 

I also don't like the drop rule. Seriously how often do we need to drop re drop place? I don't think one time this year in any group I was in this took place. Dropping was an art form and a skill people practiced. Now it's basically placing the ball.

 

I take 2 drops and place nearly every time unless I get a bad bounce. And I probably average having to do this 3 times a round because I suck. The new drop rule will save time for me for sure.

 

The point brought up about fast slopes at Augusta would be interesting. It'll all depend on how they word it. I'm sure they'll throw a Decision in that says something like, if the ball will not come to rest anywhere in the 80" from a minimum drop height, the player will drop at the next closest place the ball will come to rest, no closer to the hole.

 

Much like now.

 

The wording should be fun. :)

[Forty]

One proposed change no one seems to be talking about is letting a player lift his/her ball without announcing it to their competitors. I see that being easily abused. Someone could stick a tee behind the ball, "identify" it, and fluff up the lie with no oversight at all.

[Newby]

I take 2 drops and place nearly every time unless I get a bad bounce. And I probably average having to do this 3 times a round because I suck. The new drop rule will save time for me for sure.

 

The point brought up about fast slopes at Augusta would be interesting. It'll all depend on how they word it. I'm sure they'll throw a Decision in that says something like, if the ball will not come to rest anywhere in the 80" from a minimum drop height, the player will drop at the next closest place the ball will come to rest, no closer to the hole.

 

Much like now.

 

The wording should be fun. :)

 

14.3 e.

(2) What to Do When Dropped Ball Will Not Stay in Relief Area. In unusual situations, a dropped ball may not stay in the relief area despite the player’s repeated attempts under (1) above.

If this happens and it is reasonable to conclude that a dropped ball will not come to rest in the relief area no matter where and how the ball is dropped:

 The player must place the ball on and play it from a spot chosen by the player that is anywhere in the relief area.

 If the placed ball does not stay at rest on the spot chosen, the player must apply Rule 14.2e.

 Only the player may place a ball under this Rule. No one else (including a caddie) may do it for the player.

[TollBros]

All great changes, especially the 40 second rule. The snails need to move it along. Anything that gets a foursome done in under 4 hours works for me.

[krayzejava]

A lot of what I have read in the thread has "what ifs" and "abuse" in. I think the USGA and RandA are trying to write the rules in keeping with the tradition that the golfer must police themselves. The problem with the previous set of rules is it was written like law legislation for criminals and many complained. I applaud their efforts and believe they made a massive move in the right directions. As time passes I hope that many will see the logic that they used and why the changes make so much sense.

 

On the 1" drop.... is it perfect in IMO....On the fairway you're virtually certain that will receive a good lie...In the 5" rough...You need to drop the ball a bit higher (as not to touch the grass from the drop position)...In the long wispy stuff you may be at hip height with your drop....Makes sense..The more you miss the chances of a nice easy low drop diminish.

 

Its all about perspective and the way you look at the rules in application.

[bladehunter]

The lower, roughly 1" drop is to stop the nonsense I go through most every time. I want to place the ball, so I always try to drop where it will hop forward, closer to the hole than my NPR, twice. Then place it.

 

This new rule will get rid of that. I can still try to get it to jump forward, but it ends up in endless redrops. No placing.

 

For me, I know exactly where I want it to end up. Dropping from shoulder height is very random. Dropping close to the ground, I can drop and most likely get a good lie, but there is still more randomness than PLACING it on top of long grass in the rough.

 

Ultimately, I think the change was to bring in compliance your average golfer that just "throws one down" in casual play, but then does it in league play or tourney play and gets called on it. It puts everyone witnessing his illegal drop in an awkward spot where they need to tell a grown man that he needs to play by the rules. Now those casual drops will also be legal, even by accident.

 

The 1" drop will save me all the time I'll waste by hitting more provisionals because of the 3-minute search time.

 

Really though, these rules just make the game easier for bad players, which is like 99% of us, the golfing public. Your good player that just hits it down the middle, puts it on the green and two-putts will not be affected by nearly all these changes.

 

Lastly, whining about the grooves? Still? OMG. The grooves make ZERO difference and if you look at the data, you can make the case the new grooves make scoring easier.

 

How many 59's were shot on tour before the groove change? 3. Geiberger, Beck, and Duval in 1999. Then 11 years nobody shot 59 or better. Since the groove rule started in 2010 there have been 5 59's and a 58.

 

If you can't score, it's certainly not the grooves.

 

From '77 to 2009, 32years, the world's best, only carded 3 59's. From 2010 to 2017, 7 years (and barely that it's only March) there have been 6 scores of 59 or better.

 

The "groove rule controversy" is an old dead horse that needs to be put out to pasture. It's been 7 years.

 

 

it isnt about wanting sharper grooves... its about the hundreds of iron sets and wedge shapes that are nolonger made and were made illegal for zero reason by the usga... Take titleist for example ..always used V grooves in their blades, yet anything older than around 2002ish wasnt tested for the groove list and therefore is illegal... the only solution is to ship your set for testing to the usga lab... I have sent in 2 "illegal" titleist sets and both passed and i was issue a certificate that they conform..... but pre groove rule that hassel didnt have to happen... now it is the norm ... alternative being buy new..( which i think was the end goal to begin with) .... so you see the groove rant isnt guys wanting to rip balls back on the greens... its about the illegal clubs it created that once tested arent even illegal..... its the hypocrisy of it all...then there are the grandfathered square groove ping irons...so we have "legal" illegal grooves and "illegal" yet tested legal grooves.... clear as mud ..yes?

 

I have no idea what you are going on about. You want to play ancient clubs in high level competitions? That's the only time they'd be "illegal".

 

I'd be willing to bet this problem affects nearly nobody. You'd be the exception, of course.

 

 

if you have no idea about the rule or its effects on club legality then why comment to begin with chastising me for mentioning it ?

[Hawkeye77]

OB should be played the same as a penalty area--1 stroke and dropped where it crossed.

 

Lost balls should be 1 stroke and dropped at point the ball was last seen. This would significantly speed pace of play and would simplify the rules by effectively treating OB, lateral hazards (penalty areas), and lost balls in the same manner.

 

The counterarguments to these changes are bogus. Legal liability and general decency will still discourage players from taking unsafe lines even without a stroke and distance penalty. Stroke and distance penalties are an enormous obstacle to wider adoption of people playing golf 'by the Rules' because adherance to the current rules is totally impractical and unduly penal.

 

LOL, unduly penal? One stroke? Comical.

 

Nobody, but nobody, is avoiding "playing by the rules" because of one extra stroke.

 

They don't play by the rules because they can't accept they hit bad shots and want every advantage they can get in the fairways, rough and on the greens. They rationalize cheating, again let them. Other people respect the game and the rules, play in competitions, accept bad decisions, bad shots and rub of the green have consequences.

 

This isn't about people who don't want to play by the rules - let them, they aren't playing golf and so what. That's fun for them.

 

It's about the integrity of the game. Plenty of sound reasons for stroke and distance.

 

Waaaaaah, it costs me an extra stroke is not an argument.

[Roadking2003]

But you're making my point Frankie. I'm playing in a group with Newby,Sawgrass and Sui and they deny my drop. Your group has Roadking and the other guys that want to roll it in the fairway. Do you think we get the same ruling?

Play it as it lies whenever possible. That's golf.

 

"That's golf"? Who decided that? Are hickory shafts also "Golf"?

 

Maybe it's time for a change. Why shouldn't I be able to clean my ball in the fairway? And move it off a patch of dirt in the fairway? Why isn't that "Golf"?

 

I think we should make changes to reduce the luck factor. So if I drive it down the fairway, like the hole was designed to be played, why shouldn't I have a good lie?

[North Butte]

People do stuff like roll the ball, take mulligans, etc because their self-worth is tied up with their score. They are slaves to the scorecard. They feel good about themselves when the number is low and bad about themselves when the number is high. So they do anything they can to feel better with a lower number.

 

It is a sadly constrained situation when someone feels better about having rolled the ball six or eight times during around then they would if they played it down and had to write down a score two strokes higher.

[QEight]

One proposed change no one seems to be talking about is letting a player lift his/her ball without announcing it to their competitors. I see that being easily abused. Someone could stick a tee behind the ball, "identify" it, and fluff up the lie with no oversight at all.

 

Most of the time I do not go around to witness the lifting anyway. It is up to the integrity of the player.

[utkochster]

After reading the entire thread and seeing lots of points for both sides on all the various arguments...... I think there is a strong argument for not changing the OB and Lost Ball penalties.

 

There is too much subjectivity as to where the person should have to take a drop. Now.....I don't have to argue or debate that at all.

 

I don't think changing the OB/LB rule would speed play that much and people should hit a provisional whenever there is doubt they will find the 1st ball. I understand some people might view the person is hitting a provisional for practice but that is the least of my concerns.

 

I get the argument that the pros get an advantage with marshals and fans helping find balls....or knowing where it is but, again, that is the least of my concerns.....

[TheCityGame]

But you're making my point Frankie. I'm playing in a group with Newby,Sawgrass and Sui and they deny my drop. Your group has Roadking and the other guys that want to roll it in the fairway. Do you think we get the same ruling?

Play it as it lies whenever possible. That's golf.

 

"That's golf"? Who decided that? Are hickory shafts also "Golf"?

 

Maybe it's time for a change. Why shouldn't I be able to clean my ball in the fairway? And move it off a patch of dirt in the fairway? Why isn't that "Golf"?

 

I think we should make changes to reduce the luck factor. So if I drive it down the fairway, like the hole was designed to be played, why shouldn't I have a good lie?

Who decided it?

 

The people who decide things. The same people who decided you have to dribble a basketball instead of run with it. The same people who said you can't use your hands in soccer. The same people who said you can't walk up to dart board and push a dart into the cork.

 

The very nature of the game is that are not being "defended" by a person. Instead, you are being "defended" by nature. The things you want to remove from the game ARE the game.

 

So, you want to play a game where you hit a ball off the tee and if it comes to rest the fairway, you can clean it, and place it so that you can take a swing like you're a driving range. It's the most entitled thing I've ever heard. What's next. . .you're entitled to a flat lie? The grass should be firm, but fluffy so the lies aren't too tight?

 

The fairway was never intended to ensure a perfect lie. You hit the ball in the fairway so that you have a BETTER CHANCE of having a good lie than if you hit one in the rough. Not a 100% chance. Sometimes a lie in the rough is better.

 

You don't like your lie in the fairway. . .declare it unplayable and try to improve it. No one is going to argue with this.

 

When they hold tournaments at some courses, they require members to carry around a piece of astroturf and play off that so they don't damage the fairways for the pros. This is basically what you're saying you want golf to be. . .and I don't mean divot-free fairways. I mean getting a lie like you're playing off astroturf.

[sui generis]

If the net result is fewer instances of the words "except" and "unless" and the complete disappearance of "through the green" I'll be a much happier referee. (The 2016 Rules have 147 excepts, 56 unlesses and 34 through the greens.)

 

I've long thought loose impediments should receive the same treatment all over the golf course.

 

Though there's no thrill in "general area" and "penalty area," as yet, I've no suggestions for better names.

 

We might have fewer Definitions. Fewer Decisions might be nice, but that'll be too much to hope for.

 

Third person passive voice is a tough way to present stuff, also.

[Augster]

People do stuff like roll the ball, take mulligans, etc because their self-worth is tied up with their score. They are slaves to the scorecard. They feel good about themselves when the number is low and bad about themselves when the number is high. So they do anything they can to feel better with a lower number.

 

It is a sadly constrained situation when someone feels better about having rolled the ball six or eight times during around then they would if they played it down and had to write down a score two strokes higher.

 

I agree 100% and have been preaching this for quite some time.

 

Players should just play by the rules and get over themselves. They aren't very good. Accept it. Enjoy the time out on the course regardless of the score at the end. In the grand scheme of things, there is little difference between an 82 and an 88.

[Augster]

I take 2 drops and place nearly every time unless I get a bad bounce. And I probably average having to do this 3 times a round because I suck. The new drop rule will save time for me for sure.

 

The point brought up about fast slopes at Augusta would be interesting. It'll all depend on how they word it. I'm sure they'll throw a Decision in that says something like, if the ball will not come to rest anywhere in the 80" from a minimum drop height, the player will drop at the next closest place the ball will come to rest, no closer to the hole.

 

Much like now.

 

The wording should be fun. :)

 

14.3 e.

(2) What to Do When Dropped Ball Will Not Stay in Relief Area. In unusual situations, a dropped ball may not stay in the relief area despite the player’s repeated attempts under (1) above.

If this happens and it is reasonable to conclude that a dropped ball will not come to rest in the relief area no matter where and how the ball is dropped:

 The player must place the ball on and play it from a spot chosen by the player that is anywhere in the relief area.

 If the placed ball does not stay at rest on the spot chosen, the player must apply Rule 14.2e.

 Only the player may place a ball under this Rule. No one else (including a caddie) may do it for the player.

 

Newby, where'd you find that? Is there a PDF somewhere of all the rulings with the proposed wordings? Time to get the google machine going.

[North Butte]

I don't really care how someone plays. If they maximize their joy by taking mulligans and rolling the ball and giving themselves putts and all the other nonsense I can't really say they ought to do it differently.

 

But it does gripe me when they want to get on a high horse and insist the Rules of Golf that the rest of the world plays by ought to be modified to fit their own watered-down, self-congratulatory version. At that point, the mulligan-taking, ball-rolling, putt-giving feel gooders are basically trying to tell me how I ought to play the game.

[SeaOfGreen10]

OB should be played the same as a penalty area--1 stroke and dropped where it crossed.

 

Lost balls should be 1 stroke and dropped at point the ball was last seen. This would significantly speed pace of play and would simplify the rules by effectively treating OB, lateral hazards (penalty areas), and lost balls in the same manner.

 

The counterarguments to these changes are bogus. Legal liability and general decency will still discourage players from taking unsafe lines even without a stroke and distance penalty. Stroke and distance penalties are an enormous obstacle to wider adoption of people playing golf 'by the Rules' because adherance to the current rules is totally impractical and unduly penal.

 

LOL, unduly penal? One stroke? Comical.

 

Nobody, but nobody, is avoiding "playing by the rules" because of one extra stroke.

 

They don't play by the rules because they can't accept they hit bad shots and want every advantage they can get in the fairways, rough and on the greens. They rationalize cheating, again let them. Other people respect the game and the rules, play in competitions, accept bad decisions, bad shots and rub of the green have consequences.

 

This isn't about people who don't want to play by the rules - let them, they aren't playing golf and so what. That's fun for them.

 

It's about the integrity of the game. Plenty of sound reasons for stroke and distance.

 

Waaaaaah, it costs me an extra stroke is not an argument.

 

So in a thread created to discuss proposed rule changes, you are making the argument that discussing a rule someone wants changed is "rationalizing cheating" because they "can't accept" bad shots? Does that mean the USGA falls into this category? Clearly, tapping down spike marks would make things easier, and is simply an attempt at rationalizing the cheaters who already do this. I can't believe so many people support this blatant attack on the integrity of the game.

 

If you believe S&D is appropriate because OB should be punished more than a hazard, fine, that is valid. But to act like the discussion itself isn't even vald, in a thread literally about changing the rules of the game, is as absurd as using an argument that includes "Waaaaah".

[HatsForBats]

 

Yeah in theory I would like to see S&D eliminated for lost balls/OB, but their definitely would be courses that have some problems if all of the sudden you just started banging away with your driver and played everything as a lateral (or I guess now just a "hazard").

 

A course that would have 'some problems' would have the option to keep the OB exactly as it is now. A course that is littered with very reachable OB on a large number of holes might implement some areas with the new OB while leaving others as the current OB.

 

I am not sure I get others argument that players just want free strokes. Sure it would make the stroke score lower but presumably the differential for handicap should not change since the course would have a lower rating/slope. I'm not sure why they care so much about a players gross score if the net score is adjusted accordingly. In the end it would reduce the times of rounds and make the game more enjoyable for a larger majority of players. That is a good thing for the game of golf IMO.

[BillyZ2]

No more OB, just hazards. Very simple and would speed up the game plus make it more enjoyable for everybody.

[North Butte]

I think having my score be two shots higher every time I jack one OB makes perfect sense. Hitting it in the rough typically costs me something like half a stroke. Hitting it in a lateral hazard costs about a full stroke. OB costs two.

 

The result is I try really hard not to hit the ball in lateral hazards and really, really hard not to hit them OB. Given that OB at my home course typically means you've hit a ball into someone's yard I think having a stroke incentive to play away from OB is good.

 

Honestly I'm going to be doing everything in my power not to be hitting balls where houses and non-golfers are, anyway. The Rules for OB just formalize that with an appropriate penalty.

 

I do occasionally play with guys who will absolutely try to cut any dogleg, fly their driver over any trees, take any shortcut or play the most ridiculously risky shots as long as there are no OB stakes and they think they'll be able to either find their ball or take a lateral-hazard drop. If there were no S&D penalty for OB they bit pelting houses just like they do swamps and stands of pine trees.

[Roadking2003]

People do stuff like roll the ball, take mulligans, etc because their self-worth is tied up with their score. They are slaves to the scorecard. They feel good about themselves when the number is low and bad about themselves when the number is high. So they do anything they can to feel better with a lower number.

 

It is a sadly constrained situation when someone feels better about having rolled the ball six or eight times during around then they would if they played it down and had to write down a score two strokes higher.

 

 

If rolling the ball in the fairway helps by two strokes, your course needs better fairways.

[TheCityGame]

You guys really need to stop with the "more enjoyable for everybody" and "more enjoyable for a larger majority of golfers" stuff.

 

It's S&D when you hit a ball off the course because they don't want balls off the course. They don't want them bouncing down roads. They don't want them in people's backyards. They want you to play away from that.

 

OB 10 yards over the green? Better play short of the green.

 

OB 10 feet from the fairway on the left. . .better aim WAY right. I mean aiming so far right, you're bringing the next hole into play.

 

OB both sides of a narrow hole? Better hit your 7 iron off the tee.

 

It's Fundamentals of Course Management 101. I don't play with people who want these things. I don't understand this desire to make playing the game free from unpleasantness.

[North Butte]

People do stuff like roll the ball, take mulligans, etc because their self-worth is tied up with their score. They are slaves to the scorecard. They feel good about themselves when the number is low and bad about themselves when the number is high. So they do anything they can to feel better with a lower number.

 

It is a sadly constrained situation when someone feels better about having rolled the ball six or eight times during around then they would if they played it down and had to write down a score two strokes higher.

 

 

If rolling the ball in the fairway helps by two strokes, your course needs better fairways.

 

I think the guys who pick up the ball in every fairway (or nearly every fairway) and give themselves a teed up lie on the best patch of grass they can find do probably save themselves a stroke or two per round. Not a stroke or two per hole, per round.

 

I know almost nobody who rolls the ball literally once a round when he's in a divot. In my experience the guys who like to roll it will find an excuse on most holes.

[Stuart_G]

Though there's no thrill in "general area" and "penalty area," as yet, I've no suggestions for better names.

 

Agree - also not crazy about the naming, especially "penalty area". Maybe that it's too much like the 'penalty box' in hockey The penalty is only really associated with getting out of the area - not going into the area.

 

I thought it would have just been better to drop the "water" and just call it a "Hazard". Then remove Bunkers from that category and let them stand on their own as just 'Bunkers'.

 

But I'm guessing they wanted to create a clearer separation between the old and new to avoid potential for confusion.

[North Butte]

You guys really need to stop with the "more enjoyable for everybody" and "more enjoyable for a larger majority of golfers" stuff.

 

It's S&D when you hit a ball off the course because they don't want balls off the course. They don't want them bouncing down roads. They don't want them in people's backyards. They want you to play away from that.

 

OB 10 yards over the green? Better play short of the green.

 

OB 10 feet from the fairway on the left. . .better aim WAY right. I mean aiming so far right, you're bringing the next hole into play.

 

OB both sides of a narrow hole? Better hit your 7 iron off the tee.

 

It's Fundamentals of Course Management 101. I don't play with people who want these things. I don't understand this desire to make playing the game free from unpleasantness.

 

And if a course has multiple holes with OB 10 yards over the green, both sides of several narrow holes, etc. then I don't play that course. Or I don't play it a second time anyway. There's more to golf than spending 4-1/2 hours trying NOT to break a window.

[Shilgy]

People do stuff like roll the ball, take mulligans, etc because their self-worth is tied up with their score. They are slaves to the scorecard. They feel good about themselves when the number is low and bad about themselves when the number is high. So they do anything they can to feel better with a lower number.

 

It is a sadly constrained situation when someone feels better about having rolled the ball six or eight times during around then they would if they played it down and had to write down a score two strokes higher.

 

 

If rolling the ball in the fairway helps by two strokes, your course needs better fairways.

If rolling the ball in the fairway helps by two stroke if you need to roll the ball in every fairway, your course needs better fairways.

Personally I have never understood the idea of deserving any style of lie after a shot. You may get a perfect lie in the rough-or between trees-and a poor lie in the fairway. And it's how you handle the adversity that defines your game. IMO-not in yours and we are all entitled to one- your idea of golf is done quite well at any driving range or Top Golf. Bad breaks are a part of sports. Let me throw out a question for you. If you hit a perfect drive down the middle of the fairway but it strikes the edge of a sprinkler head and bounds into deep rough should you be able to place it where you think it should have wound up in the fairway? How about if it bounces out of bounds?

[ratspros]

People do stuff like roll the ball, take mulligans, etc because their self-worth is tied up with their score. They are slaves to the scorecard. They feel good about themselves when the number is low and bad about themselves when the number is high. So they do anything they can to feel better with a lower number.

 

It is a sadly constrained situation when someone feels better about having rolled the ball six or eight times during around then they would if they played it down and had to write down a score two strokes higher.

 

I agree 100% and have been preaching this for quite some time.

 

Players should just play by the rules and get over themselves. They aren't very good. Accept it. Enjoy the time out on the course regardless of the score at the end. In the grand scheme of things, there is little difference between an 82 and an 88.

 

Both of these comments are just so far off I don't know what to say. Sure some people will fit the mold you both cast.

 

The majority that roll the ball, take mulligans, etc just do it because that's how they enjoy the day. Maybe they're old and don't like breaking a wrist hitting it off a tree root or out of a deep divot so they roll it a bit. Just like people that take gimmies, or people that drop and hit 4 instead of walking back to the tee on a lost ball, they do it because that's what they want to do, has absolutely zero to do with self worth. Some probably just roll it in every fairway due to it being a habit of the course playing winter rules for a large portion of the year. Either way I'd be surprised if rolling it in the fairway every hole saves a player even one shot a round. Let them play their way and you play your way. In a competition I'd expect them not to roll the ball but in a casual round do what you please.

 

I don't know to many people that take liberties with the rules that just feel like they are worthless and the world would be a better place with out them when they shoot 5 strokes higher then usual, as I also don't know the same people that feel they are God's gift to the world and can likely cure cancer when they shoot 5 strokes lower then usual. It seems to me the people who's self worth is tied up in their score more are the people that are against these ball rollers. "You can say you beat me but you cheated you big stupid cheater head, I'm taking my ball and going home."

 

In a casual round where less then $50 is on the line I don't care if I lose to someone that doesn't play by all the rules, or if I beat someone that does play by all the rules. I care how I did, that's all.

[jslane57]

You guys really need to stop with the "more enjoyable for everybody" and "more enjoyable for a larger majority of golfers" stuff.

 

It's S&D when you hit a ball off the course because they don't want balls off the course. They don't want them bouncing down roads. They don't want them in people's backyards. They want you to play away from that.

 

OB 10 yards over the green? Better play short of the green.

 

OB 10 feet from the fairway on the left. . .better aim WAY right. I mean aiming so far right, you're bringing the next hole into play.

 

OB both sides of a narrow hole? Better hit your 7 iron off the tee.

 

It's Fundamentals of Course Management 101. I don't play with people who want these things. I don't understand this desire to make playing the game free from unpleasantness.

I agree. This whole red stakes everywhere sounds horrible. If you're a person who would rather just bomb your driver all day, you could simply stay at the driving range. The game happens on the course, not off the course. TBH, I'd be happy if they went two strokes and distance for OB. Make the penalty harsher, not void. And yes, on a hole that is narrow and only 320 as it was built 30 years ago in a housing development, a 7 iron off the tee is the play. Hitting a 300 yard driver OB near the green is basically zero penalty with red stakes...

[Roadking2003]

People do stuff like roll the ball, take mulligans, etc because their self-worth is tied up with their score. They are slaves to the scorecard. They feel good about themselves when the number is low and bad about themselves when the number is high. So they do anything they can to feel better with a lower number.

 

It is a sadly constrained situation when someone feels better about having rolled the ball six or eight times during around then they would if they played it down and had to write down a score two strokes higher.

 

 

If rolling the ball in the fairway helps by two strokes, your course needs better fairways.

 

I think the guys who pick up the ball in every fairway (or nearly every fairway) and give themselves a teed up lie on the best patch of grass they can find do probably save themselves a stroke or two per round. Not a stroke or two per hole, per round.

 

I know almost nobody who rolls the ball literally once a round when he's in a divot. In my experience the guys who like to roll it will find an excuse on most holes.

 

I don't roll it either. My group doesn't roll it. If fairways are mowed properly you can't get a "teed up" lie.