USGA Proposes to Modernize Rules of Golf

[ChaosTheory]

What does this mean:

A player is only allowed to lift a ball helping play if the ball is on the putting green

[HitEmTrue]

Add an asterisk. A ball can be played out of a penalty area. *Except those deemed to be boundary markings by the committee.

 

The problem is how do deal with a lost ball, and have it be consistent with out-of-bounds. Player A hits it off the planet (out of bounds), and drops at the boundary with one stroke penalty. Player B hits a ball, and NOBODY sees where it went. Where to drop? Player C hits ball and everyone thinks it is on the edge of the fairway...but it can't be found. Where to drop?

[Stuart_G]

OK, I read that. I was under the same assumption, but felt that they didn't specifically say "out of bounds" that this isn't a consideration. I mentioned out of bounds earlier in the thread and am in concert with you.

 

The important difference is one can play out of a penalty area (relief isn't mandatory). OOB is typically not part of the course and there are reasons players are not allowed to play out of them that can't be ignored.

 

Add an asterisk. A ball can be played out of a penalty area. *Except those deemed to be boundary markings by the committee.

 

An unnecessary complication giving an area two possible status'. The idea is to simplify the rule. We already have an definition for an area one can't play out of. If they really wanted to eliminate the stroke and distance penalty for OOB, it would much easier and simpler to just specify additional relief options for a ball that ends up OB.

[ChaosTheory]

Seems that 12.2b leaves the door open for practice swings in the bunker as long as it's not in front or behind your ball?

 

I would suggest that is the intention

 

It says:

It is no longer a penalty for a player to touch the sand with a hand or club (even if done intentionally or in anger), except when done (1) with his or her hand or club to test the conditions of the bunker or (2) with the club in the area right behind or in front of the ball, in making a practice swing or in making the backswing for the stroke

[TheCityGame]

Seems that 12.2b leaves the door open for practice swings in the bunker as long as it's not in front or behind your ball?

 

I would suggest that is the intention

NO.

Proposed Rule: Under new Rules 12.2a and 12.2b, the player would be allowed to touch or move loose impediments in a bunker and would be generally allowed to touch the sand with a hand or club; but a limited prohibition continues so that the player must not:

• Deliberately touch the sand in a bunker with a hand, club, rake or other object to test the condition of the sand to learn information for the stroke, or
  
• Touch the sand in a bunker with a club in making a practice swing, in grounding the club right in front of or behind the ball, or in making the backswing for a stroke.
  

[bladehunter]

The USGA could do wonders at repairing their reputation by giving us back our sharp grooves and maybe eliminate some of the most penal rules like stroke and distance

 

 

 

i second that ... groove rule repealed would be a great start...ihave a box full of 300 and 400 series vokeys i cant use... and thats the best wedge shape ever...

 

 

as for the proposals here... leaving the flag in ?? what will that solve? and giving a commitee a blank check to issue stroke penalties of unknown number and or DQ for un specified behavior is a bad idea.... the commitee should always be able to be questioned without fear of DQ .... and repairing marks on greens? that will only lead to guys on TV spending 10 minutes doing landscapep maintenance on their line before every putt.... bad idea... and the short drop??/ why not just say place it ... thats what it is... relief from a bunker ? that could be a huge advantage for someone who hits into one of the huge OPEN bunker lips and takes 3-4 strokes to get out... not a fan of that rule either...

[TheCityGame]

The USGA could do wonders at repairing their reputation by giving us back our sharp grooves and maybe eliminate some of the most penal rules like stroke and distance

 

 

 

i second that ... groove rule repealed would be a great start...ihave a box full of 300 and 400 series vokeys i cant use... and thats the best wedge shape ever...

 

 

as for the proposals here... leaving the flag in ?? what will that solve?

Slight pace of play improvement if all players always leave the stick in.

 

. . .and removes any questions about whether a player was on or off the green when he putted.

 

. . .and removes any situation where a flag stick couldn't be removed from the hole and the player was penalized for hitting it.

[JonP]

"The prohibition on applying foreign material to the club face is extended to the entire clubhead."

 

No lead tape?

[Hawkeye77]

Oh thank God. They took like 90% of my recommendations I sent them.

 

The only thing I see that I don't like is the flagstick. I wanted it required that it is never taken out. Because I'm going to want it in for every single putt. Especially 2-3-4 footers. There's going to be a lot of BS of taking it out for one guy, then putting it back in for the next guy. Then take it out. This will result in a lot of beat up cups.

 

Other than that, I like everything.

 

Nostradamus!

[bladehunter]

OK, I read that. I was under the same assumption, but felt that they didn't specifically say "out of bounds" that this isn't a consideration. I mentioned out of bounds earlier in the thread and am in concert with you.

 

The important difference is one can play out of a penalty area (relief isn't mandatory). OOB is typically not part of the course and there are reasons players are not allowed to play out of them that can't be ignored.

 

Add an asterisk. A ball can be played out of a penalty area. *Except those deemed to be boundary markings by the committee.

 

An unnecessary complication giving an area two possible status'. The idea is to simplify the rule. We already have an definition for an area one can't play out of. If they really wanted to eliminate the stroke and distance penalty for OOB, it would much easier and simpler to just specify additional relief options for a ball that ends up OB.

 

 

lol i wish this too.. my handicap drops 3 points if OB is no longer stroke and distance ....

[bladehunter]

The USGA could do wonders at repairing their reputation by giving us back our sharp grooves and maybe eliminate some of the most penal rules like stroke and distance

 

 

 

i second that ... groove rule repealed would be a great start...ihave a box full of 300 and 400 series vokeys i cant use... and thats the best wedge shape ever...

 

 

as for the proposals here... leaving the flag in ?? what will that solve?

Slight pace of play improvement if all players always leave the stick in.

 

. . .and removes any questions about whether a player was on or off the green when he putted.

 

. . .and removes any situation where a flag stick couldn't be removed from the hole and the player was penalized for hitting it.

 

 

could be a loss of time if only half the group wants it left in..... also willlead to guys slaming putts in... half will hit the stick and go in ..other half hit it and stay stone dead... takes skill out of lagging somewhat .. just not a benefit

[mctrees02]

Overall I came away impressed by the proposed changes. A few particular thoughts:

 

- The 20"/80" measuring is more confusing than club length. Why not just have every drop be "2 club lengths from nearest point of full relief, no closer to the hole, and you can drop it from 1" above the ground." As long as the dropped ball doesn't come to rest 1) inside a penalty area or 2) closer to the hole then play the shot.

 

- Fix the lost ball rule. Kudos for speeding up the search time. Why can't we just make this a stroke penalty? Amateurs lose a lot more balls in the rough and/or native areas of a course when everybody agrees that the ball didn't go in a penalty area or out of bounds. After the failed search attempt, the player then has to go back to his previous shot, hit another shot, and then come back up the hole. If using a cart, this adds about 5 minutes to the hole (including search time). If the player is walking, it can add 7-10 minutes. I propose that if a player and his partners can agree that the ball did not go OB or into a penalty area, then drop at its "most likely" location, assess a 1 stroke penalty and play on.

 

- Out of Bounds. Somewhat similar to the lost ball situation and the time it takes to return to the tee if you didn't hit a provisional. I propose amending the rule to: A player has the option to 1) hit a provisional ball and play that ball if its determined his original ball is OB or (if they player did not hit a provisional ball from his previous location) he must 2) determine the spot at which the ball most likely crossed the OB line, take a drop, assess a 2 stroke penalty and play on. These two options would serve to apply the same stroke penalty as currently exists while providing the player options to maintain pace of play. It further helps out if the player's provisional ball also ends up OB.

 

- Fairway Divots. This is my #1 pet peeve and I would love to see a change made here as they are particularly frequent on one low lying hole at my home course that doesn't drain well. That being said, others have pointed out that it's tough to write a clear rule to cover all situations. How do you split the difference between filled vs unfilled divots? What about courses that have thin areas of grass in the fairway that are more hard dirt than fairway? What is your ball is resting against the side of a divot but otherwise on good grass? I could keep going here but there are some many hypotheticals that it's ripe for abuse. I absolutely don't like the idea of "preferred lies" in the fairway because you're just asking for trouble when a player drops the ball to a place that changes the angle and/or distance of the shot.

[Frankensteins Monster]

Add an asterisk. A ball can be played out of a penalty area. *Except those deemed to be boundary markings by the committee.

 

The problem is how do deal with a lost ball, and have it be consistent with out-of-bounds. Player A hits it off the planet (out of bounds), and drops at the boundary with one stroke penalty. Player B hits a ball, and NOBODY sees where it went. Where to drop? Player C hits ball and everyone thinks it is on the edge of the fairway...but it can't be found. Where to drop?

 

Group decision. Majority rules.

[Frankensteins Monster]

OK, I read that. I was under the same assumption, but felt that they didn't specifically say "out of bounds" that this isn't a consideration. I mentioned out of bounds earlier in the thread and am in concert with you.

 

The important difference is one can play out of a penalty area (relief isn't mandatory). OOB is typically not part of the course and there are reasons players are not allowed to play out of them that can't be ignored.

 

Add an asterisk. A ball can be played out of a penalty area. *Except those deemed to be boundary markings by the committee.

 

An unnecessary complication giving an area two possible status'. The idea is to simplify the rule. We already have an definition for an area one can't play out of. If they really wanted to eliminate the stroke and distance penalty for OOB, it would much easier and simpler to just specify additional relief options for a ball that ends up OB.

 

Two strokes from last cross of the margin. I'm ok with that. Stroke and distance is the stupidest rule in the book.

[TheCityGame]

The USGA could do wonders at repairing their reputation by giving us back our sharp grooves and maybe eliminate some of the most penal rules like stroke and distance

 

 

 

i second that ... groove rule repealed would be a great start...ihave a box full of 300 and 400 series vokeys i cant use... and thats the best wedge shape ever...

 

 

as for the proposals here... leaving the flag in ?? what will that solve?

Slight pace of play improvement if all players always leave the stick in.

 

. . .and removes any questions about whether a player was on or off the green when he putted.

 

. . .and removes any situation where a flag stick couldn't be removed from the hole and the player was penalized for hitting it.

 

 

could be a loss of time if only half the group wants it left in..... also willlead to guys slaming putts in... half will hit the stick and go in ..other half hit it and stay stone dead... takes skill out of lagging somewhat .. just not a benefit

FWIW, I see it as saving time. We putt like this in the winter when it's not serious. Quite often, the flag has to be lain opposite the hole than the exit of the green. This is OK if all players are on top of it, and after a guy is finishing his putt, he gets the flag. But, often, he has wedges laying off the green, or has to go somewhere else.

 

Yes, if players are putting it in, taking it out, putting it in, taking it out, that would be bad, and completely possible.

 

This is what the USGA wrote. . .

 

 

Reasons for Change:

Allowing a player to putt with the flagstick in the hole without fear of penalty should generally help speed up play.

When the players do not have caddies, the current Rule can result in considerable delay.

On balance it is expected that there should be no advantage in being able to putt with the unattended flagstick in the hole:

• In some cases the ball may strike the flagstick and bounce out of the hole when it might otherwise have been holed, and
  
• In other cases the ball may hit the flagstick and finish in the hole when it might otherwise have missed.
  

[Stuart_G]

Two strokes from last cross of the margin. I'm ok with that. Stroke and distance is the stupidest rule in the book.

 

To be honest, that approach wouldn't bother me but I can also understand the argument that OB is supposed to be more penal and the skill (or smarts) needed to avoid it is an integral part of the game.

 

But it still leaves the big question of how to handle S+D for a lost ball in an equitable fashion where there is no clearly defined boundary.

[Stuart_G]

"The prohibition on applying foreign material to the club face is extended to the entire clubhead."

 

No lead tape?

 

Very unlikely that the status of lead tape as a "traditionally accepted" exception to the rules will change.

[TheCityGame]

And, on flagsticks. . ,FWIW. . .Dave Pelz has done the study. . .he claims that it is to the player's advantage to leave the flagstick in. He rolled thousands of balls st flagged and unflagged holes. This has been discussed many times on this site.

 

Now that I think about it a little more, I think it's too much of a fundamental change in golf. Almost like if basketball increased the size of the rims, or something. Or if golf allowed players to move a ball out of divot. :cheesy:

[bladehunter]

And, on flagsticks. . ,FWIW. . .Dave Pelz has done the study. . .he claims that it is to the player's advantage to leave the flagstick in. He rolled thousands of balls st flagged and unflagged holes. This has been discussed many times on this site.

 

Now that I think about it a little more, I think it's too much of a fundamental change in golf. Almost like if basketball increased the size of the rims, or something. Or if golf allowed players to move a ball out of divot. :cheesy:

 

 

yes thats what i was saying... more balls will be holed with it in.... and ijust dont see it as speeding up unless its required.... the grous i play with will never have 100% wanting to putt with it in.. so there would be an in and out dance ever hole...slowing it down.. unless we set our own " putt with it out " rule before the round to stopthose wanting to cheat ( my opinion ) by puting with it in...

[markheardjr]

I think the 1" drop thing comes from the time it takes to keep redropping when on a hill. From a height the ball picks up speed and caroms off downhill. 1" will possibly allow the ball to land and rest on the hill and no require more redrops.

 

I don't care all that much about any of it. I really don't see it being a HUGE deal for someone to even take a practice shot in the bunker. Tour players get pristine conditions every week with new sand in their bunkers. Its really only the amateurs playing in poorly maintained bunkers that have to guess if there is sand down there or not. You can dig in your shoes to get an idea of compact earth or not but a practice swing isn't the end of the world or a huge advantage.

[rawdog]

And, on flagsticks. . ,FWIW. . .Dave Pelz has done the study. . .he claims that it is to the player's advantage to leave the flagstick in. He rolled thousands of balls st flagged and unflagged holes. This has been discussed many times on this site.

 

Now that I think about it a little more, I think it's too much of a fundamental change in golf. Almost like if basketball increased the size of the rims, or something. Or if golf allowed players to move a ball out of divot. :cheesy:

 

http://www.golf.com/instruction/flag-or-out

 

It'll make a significant difference, but most golfers won't perceive it.

 

Will we be watching PGA pros putting with the stick in?

[markheardjr]

Two strokes from last cross of the margin. I'm ok with that. Stroke and distance is the stupidest rule in the book.

 

To be honest, that approach wouldn't bother me but I can also understand the argument that OB is supposed to be more penal and the skill (or smarts) needed to avoid it is an integral part of the game.

 

But it still leaves the big question of how to handle S+D for a lost ball in an equitable fashion where there is no clearly defined boundary.

I'd be open to two types of OB. Internal and external. Internal OB is for protection, I would propose a 1 stroke penalty to move the ball back in play 1 club length from nearest OB line. External OB would be off the grounds, this would be a 2 stroke penalty, same rule applies. Golfers shouldn't be penalized because someone couldn't afford more land. Jack would agree with me, he has said in the past, "Internal OB means you didn't buy enough land." At least then if a hole has OB on both you can err on the internal side and take a lesser penalty due to safety of nearby golfers.

 

Or possibly even a bit of a fun rule for external OB which is 2-strokes to drop at point of entry, or 1stroke to mulligan from spot you hit from. That way if you're stymied at point of entry, you can opt to go back and try again for better position.

[MountainGoat]

There needs to be a rule to allow me (and me alone) to replay my shot if I don't like how my first one turned out.

[Frankensteins Monster]

Two strokes from last cross of the margin. I'm ok with that. Stroke and distance is the stupidest rule in the book.

 

To be honest, that approach wouldn't bother me but I can also understand the argument that OB is supposed to be more penal and the skill (or smarts) needed to avoid it is an integral part of the game.

 

But it still leaves the big question of how to handle S+D for a lost ball in an equitable fashion where there is no clearly defined boundary.

 

I've played on courses where 10ft off the fairway it's OB. That's stupid.

[mctrees02]

The following is an email I sent to the USGA in response to their request for feedback. Comment as you see fit

 

 

First, let me commend your organization for undertaking this progressive approach to modernizing the game we all love. I know it will be somewhat controversial, but revolutionary change always is. I have two comments to make

 

With respect to the proposed rule change allowing a ball to be dropped from any height, I feel this is a mistake. I believe it violates the essence of Rule 13. " Play the ball as it lies" and "Play the course as you find it" are the foundational elements of golf. I feel dropping from any where closer than waist high will allow manipulation of the drop and therefore the lie to a certain degree. This is in direct opposition to the spirit of Rule 13. There is nothing wrong with the drop procedure as it currently exists. I would welcome a response with the reasoning behind this proposed change explained.

 

My other comment relates to a rule change I did not see proposed--- allowing the moving of a ball in the fairway from a divot. The proposed rule changes allowing removal of loose impediments in penalty areas and bunkers is contradictory to continuing to punish a well hit shot in the fairway landing in man made alteration to the natural turf. Making shots from penalty areas and bunkers potentially easier while still requiring balls to be played from divots makes no sense.

 

Thank you for taking the time to review my comments among the millions you're sure to get.

I think the change to the ball drop height was to remove any ambiguity about "was that a legal drop?" 1 inch is sufficient space to separate from "he placed it" vs "he dropped it."

[TheCityGame]

Two strokes from last cross of the margin. I'm ok with that. Stroke and distance is the stupidest rule in the book.

 

To be honest, that approach wouldn't bother me but I can also understand the argument that OB is supposed to be more penal and the skill (or smarts) needed to avoid it is an integral part of the game.

 

But it still leaves the big question of how to handle S+D for a lost ball in an equitable fashion where there is no clearly defined boundary.

 

I've played on courses where 10ft off the fairway it's OB. That's stupid.

Are you saying they should replace more of the fairway with rough?

[Stuart_G]

I'd be open to two types of OB. Internal and external. Internal OB is for protection, I would propose a 1 stroke penalty to move the ball back in play 1 club length from nearest OB line. External OB would be off the grounds, this would be a 2 stroke penalty, same rule applies. Golfers shouldn't be penalized because someone couldn't afford more land. Jack would agree with me, he has said in the past, "Internal OB means you didn't buy enough land." At least then if a hole has OB on both you can err on the internal side and take a lesser penalty due to safety of nearby golfers.

 

Or possibly even a bit of a fun rule for external OB which is 2-strokes to drop at point of entry, or 1stroke to mulligan from spot you hit from. That way if you're stymied at point of entry, you can opt to go back and try again for better position.

 

Internal OB is for the protection of both the player and others on the course that might be in that area where the ball ended up. I don't see 1 stroke and no distance as much of an incentive to avoid the risk of ending up in that area.

 

I sympathize (since my tee game is the worst part of my game and I'm as likely to end up OB as anyone) but the primary goal is to simplify the rules and even I can't agree with added complexity just for the sake of making the game easier to play.

 

I've played on courses where 10ft off the fairway it's OB. That's stupid.

 

It may very well be stupid. I've played on courses with ridiculous pin placements and green speeds, horrible layouts, cement bunkers, and outrageously bad turf conditions. That's not the fault of the ruling bodies nor (IMO) the responsibility of the rules to fix such problems. If you dont' like the course, don't give them any of your money.

[Frankensteins Monster]

Two strokes from last cross of the margin. I'm ok with that. Stroke and distance is the stupidest rule in the book.

 

To be honest, that approach wouldn't bother me but I can also understand the argument that OB is supposed to be more penal and the skill (or smarts) needed to avoid it is an integral part of the game.

 

But it still leaves the big question of how to handle S+D for a lost ball in an equitable fashion where there is no clearly defined boundary.

 

I've played on courses where 10ft off the fairway it's OB. That's stupid.

Are you saying they should replace more of the fairway with rough?

 

Then the fairway would be 15 yards the length. So, no.

[dormie1360]

If I understand correctly, (No guarantee on that) OB could be marked as a Penalty Area instead, potentially allowing drops other than where the previous stroke was made.

[TheCityGame]

Two strokes from last cross of the margin. I'm ok with that. Stroke and distance is the stupidest rule in the book.

 

To be honest, that approach wouldn't bother me but I can also understand the argument that OB is supposed to be more penal and the skill (or smarts) needed to avoid it is an integral part of the game.

 

But it still leaves the big question of how to handle S+D for a lost ball in an equitable fashion where there is no clearly defined boundary.

 

I've played on courses where 10ft off the fairway it's OB. That's stupid.

Are you saying they should replace more of the fairway with rough?

 

Then the fairway would be 15 yards the length. So, no.

So, move the whole golf course?