ANA rules issue (Merged)

[NiagaraGolfGirl]

I question what the PGA would have done under the exact same circumstances...

 

Tiger Woods 2013 Masters - he had already signed his card but only assessed the penalty but did not disqualify him for signing an incorrect card - that was the penalty at the time before a rules change...

 

http://www.pgatour.c...ke-penalty.html

 

Not the same - Tiger was dropping the ball.

 

What was the same was a rules infraction where the penalty was assessed after the fact and that resulted in him signing an incorrect score card. He was assessed the penalty before the start of his next round but AFTER he had signed his card the previous day. He was only assessed the penalty for the rules infraction but not for signing an incorrect card.

[Strike Force]

A ball to be placed under the Rules must be placed by the player or his partner. A ball to be replaced under the Rules must be replaced by any one of the following: (i) the person who lifted or moved the ball, (ii) the player, or (iii) the player’s partner.

 

Since people mark their balls differently - how can someone that did not originally mark the ball be expected replace the ball exactly where it was lifted? Who receives the penalty for NOT replacing the ball in the exact same spot from where it was lifted?

[Hawkeye77]

Without the knowledge of the players for one tournament - I would like to have cameras setup on all 18 greens to record high definition closeups of every player marking and replacing their golf ball. I strongly suspect that out of the 6,000+ ball markings & replacements for the four days there would be well over one hundred controversial (contestable) ball replacements that were not replaced in the [so-called] 'exact spot'...with dozens that go well beyond just being controversial and are most definitely NOT replaced in the exact spot from where it was lifted.

 

Thought you were going to stalk Westwood.

 

Yawn.

[deasy55]

Am I the only person that doesn't feel overly sorry for her?

 

From the replays it looks pretty blatant and deliberate she wasn't putting it back in the same spot (trying to avoid a spike mark or some green imperfection maybe?)

 

 

[Hawkeye77]

I question what the PGA would have done under the exact same circumstances...

 

Tiger Woods 2013 Masters - he had already signed his card but only assessed the penalty but did not disqualify him for signing an incorrect card - that was the penalty at the time before a rules change...

 

http://www.pgatour.c...ke-penalty.html

 

Not the same - Tiger was dropping the ball.

 

What was the same was a rules infraction where the penalty was assessed after the fact and that resulted in him signing an incorrect score card. He was assessed the penalty before the start of his next round but AFTER he had signed his card the previous day. He was only assessed the penalty for the rules infraction but not for signing an incorrect card.

 

Not the same because of timing of when came to attention of rules committee, when player was notified and application of decision which is absolutely not in play in this situation.

[Skhacker]

Come on, we all better our lines sometimes. She just wanted a better path to the cup. She got what she wanted, just cost her more than she anticipated. (Tongue in cheek) for context.

[dpb5031]

Am I the only person that doesn't feel overly sorry for her?

 

From the replays it looks pretty blatant and deliberate she wasn't putting it back in the same spot (trying to avoid a spike mark or some green imperfection maybe?)

 

Ok fine, but 4 strokes???

[deasy55]

Am I the only person that doesn't feel overly sorry for her?

 

From the replays it looks pretty blatant and deliberate she wasn't putting it back in the same spot (trying to avoid a spike mark or some green imperfection maybe?)

 

Ok fine, but 4 strokes???

 

It's the rules as they currently are and as a professional golfer she would/should be aware of those rules.

 

If she puts it back correctly she gets penalised 0 shots.

 

All on her.

[Nessism]

Come on, we all better our lines sometimes. She just wanted a better path to the cup. She got what she wanted, just cost her more than she anticipated.

 

Negative. Don't lump me into your quagmire.

[rangersgoalie]

Without the knowledge of the players for one tournament - I would like to have cameras setup on all 18 greens to record high definition closeups of every player marking and replacing their golf ball. I strongly suspect that out of the 6,000+ ball markings & replacements for the four days there would be well over one hundred controversial (contestable) ball replacements that were not replaced in the [so-called] 'exact spot'...with dozens that go well beyond just being controversial and are most definitely NOT replaced in the exact spot from where it was lifted.

 

Dirty secret....this already done, better than any camera with shotlink on PGA TOUR events....I would imagine the data would be staggering

I would imagine every player that absolutely TRIES to replace it perfectly probably misses one at times

[Hawkeye77]

Am I the only person that doesn't feel overly sorry for her?

 

From the replays it looks pretty blatant and deliberate she wasn't putting it back in the same spot (trying to avoid a spike mark or some green imperfection maybe?)

 

I don't and I've posted with a lot of qualification that there appears to be a visible imperfection that you see when she moves the ball. Not making any accusation but she clearly puts it in a different spot.

 

Timing very unfortunate.

 

Players know this stuff can happen and on them to follow the rules. No room for careless in a major.

[Hawkeye77]

Come on, we all better our lines sometimes. She just wanted a better path to the cup. She got what she wanted, just cost her more than she anticipated.

 

Oh no we don't. And still not saying she had a bad motive.

[soregongolfer]

I question what the PGA would have done under the exact same circumstances...

 

Tiger Woods 2013 Masters - he had already signed his card but only assessed the penalty but did not disqualify him for signing an incorrect card - that was the penalty at the time before a rules change...

 

http://www.pgatour.c...ke-penalty.html

 

Not the same - Tiger was dropping the ball.

 

What was the same was a rules infraction where the penalty was assessed after the fact and that resulted in him signing an incorrect score card. He was assessed the penalty before the start of his next round but AFTER he had signed his card the previous day. He was only assessed the penalty for the rules infraction but not for signing an incorrect card.

 

And that raised a huge stink with people thinking Tiger got preferential treatment.

[Skhacker]

Come on, we all better our lines sometimes. She just wanted a better path to the cup. She got what she wanted, just cost her more than she anticipated.

 

Negative. Don't lump me into your quagmire.

Was tongue in cheek. Pretty obvious violation that the officials missed.

[augustgolf]

While we are discussing this situation, and different scenarios/outcomes…I haven’t seen anyone provide these possible considerations:

Lexi’s FC see this marking the ball and replacing it in a different spot and:

A) Calls her on it before she putts out. This creates some type of controversy/antagonism right on the green, even though the FC is 100% correct. While Lexi might be mad (really mad), FC has saved her from at least a 2 stroke penalty. While this sounds like gamesmanship on the part of the FC, it actually is/was the proper thing to do, in fairness to Lexi, the FC, and to the field as a whole.

B) FC does nothing, allowing Lexi to putt out after “playing from the wrong spot”, and calls the rules official over before Lexi tees off on the next hole. In this situation, there would/should be an immediate review, or a decision made, and play from there. FC is still considered a villain, even though she did nothing incorrect.

C) FC waits until it is time to sign scorecards, tells official about incident on 17 BEFORE Lexi and she sign scorecards. FC is made to look like a little selfish child, when actually, she is trying to prevent Lexi from having a possible DQ.

D) FC waits until after scorecards are signed, THEN tells officials about incident on 17. Because a FC reported incident, officials are FORCED TO REVIEW incident, and proceed with the (2) 2-stroke penalties. FC is still looked upon as a selfish child, when again…she did nothing wrong.

 

 

I feel very badly for Lexi, and the one thing that I know is that she will be fine. She will continue to work on her game, and be recognized for her ability.

 

We had a saying when I was growing up, (when I wasn't as "aware" of the rules as I am now)

 

The rule is clear - the penalty severe.

 

She was not DQ'd, as she would have been in the past; and she was afforded the opportunity to still win the tournament.

 

Having said all that I've said, I also do not believe that video replay and/or call-ins/emails should be allowed in golf.

 

Bad situation all around...for absolutely everyone involved. Just truly unfortunate that Lexi paid the biggest price. And, as rangersgoalie has stated, and I believe that of all the people here on this board, his opinion carries mucho weight....this was Lexi's problem. Simply marking and replacing the ball correctly would have avoided all the drama and pain. Or, putting out.

 

It is my OPINION that she saw something in that little putt that she didn't really like. What happened after that.....now, it's all speculation, but it's in the books.

 

Let's not shoot the messenger....

 

carry on

[soregongolfer]

Am I the only person that doesn't feel overly sorry for her?

 

From the replays it looks pretty blatant and deliberate she wasn't putting it back in the same spot (trying to avoid a spike mark or some green imperfection maybe?)

 

I'm with you. She moved it closer to the hole. Marking the ball on the side and then putting the ball in front of the coin is something the old farts at my club do to get an advantage. As I've stated in another thread, had she walked away and then replaced her ball, I'd feel empathy. Her mark and replacement took about a second. Pretty hard to screw that up unless she was just being absent minded.

[NiagaraGolfGirl]

I question what the PGA would have done under the exact same circumstances...

 

Tiger Woods 2013 Masters - he had already signed his card but only assessed the penalty but did not disqualify him for signing an incorrect card - that was the penalty at the time before a rules change...

 

http://www.pgatour.c...ke-penalty.html

 

Not the same - Tiger was dropping the ball.

 

What was the same was a rules infraction where the penalty was assessed after the fact and that resulted in him signing an incorrect score card. He was assessed the penalty before the start of his next round but AFTER he had signed his card the previous day. He was only assessed the penalty for the rules infraction but not for signing an incorrect card.

 

Not the same because of timing of when came to attention of rules committee, when player was notified and application of decision which is absolutely not in play in this situation.

 

Not sure how this is different. He still signed an incorrect card and then was assessed the penalty.

[spbrooks]

I believe the caller mistimed a bit. They must have been hoping to actually rip the trophy out of her hands...brutal

[JMoroz]

A little off topic, but why does professional golf still require "sign & attest"? Isn't there a rules official with every group in the tournament, and if they're 100% impartial, why can't they keep score for each player? Then it's the player's responsibility to ensure the official scorer got it right on each hole. I think the whole "sign & attest" thing is so 1900's.

 

Most definitely not a rules official with every group. I was at the ANA all 4 days and they use walkies to call over rule officials when needed.

[soregongolfer]

Am I the only person that doesn't feel overly sorry for her?

 

From the replays it looks pretty blatant and deliberate she wasn't putting it back in the same spot (trying to avoid a spike mark or some green imperfection maybe?)

 

Ok fine, but 4 strokes???

 

Used to be a DQ.

[Strike Force]

When a tour pro needs to move his marker because it is in the line of a fellow competitor I would say that probably 5%-10% of the time the ball is NOT replaced in the exact same spot. When someone uses the width of their putter and aims way out in the distance at an object to obtain a reference point the likelihood of replacing the marker and the ball to the exact spot when it is returned is drastically reduced. It could easily be ½ inch left or right for a putt of 2 to 40 feet.

[Strike Force]

Without the knowledge of the players for one tournament - I would like to have cameras setup on all 18 greens to record high definition closeups of every player marking and replacing their golf ball. I strongly suspect that out of the 6,000+ ball markings & replacements for the four days there would be well over one hundred controversial (contestable) ball replacements that were not replaced in the [so-called] 'exact spot'...with dozens that go well beyond just being controversial and are most definitely NOT replaced in the exact spot from where it was lifted.

 

Thought you were going to stalk Westwood.

 

Yawn.

 

No need to stalk Lee - it's fully known that he's been misplacing his balls for years! :taunt:

[ghostrider]

I question what the PGA would have done under the exact same circumstances...

 

Tiger Woods 2013 Masters - he had already signed his card but only assessed the penalty but did not disqualify him for signing an incorrect card - that was the penalty at the time before a rules change...

 

http://www.pgatour.c...ke-penalty.html

 

Not the same - Tiger was dropping the ball.

 

What was the same was a rules infraction where the penalty was assessed after the fact and that resulted in him signing an incorrect score card. He was assessed the penalty before the start of his next round but AFTER he had signed his card the previous day. He was only assessed the penalty for the rules infraction but not for signing an incorrect card.

 

Tiger's situation was a little different. IIRC the Masters rules officials had looked at the video of the drop and decided it was OK and didn't even ask him to clarify. He signed the card and the next day in an interview he said he moved back to get a better position. That made it a violation. The committee then decided that they couldn't DQ him since they had essentially approved the drop until he gave the interview. The real wild card here is that is was not PGA, USGA or LPGA officials but the Masters officials who can do not have to follow anything but their own rules. They decided that his scorecard was correct when signed and then incorrect the next day. Who knows what would have happened in a PGA or USGA event.

[Hawkeye77]

Without the knowledge of the players for one tournament - I would like to have cameras setup on all 18 greens to record high definition closeups of every player marking and replacing their golf ball. I strongly suspect that out of the 6,000+ ball markings & replacements for the four days there would be well over one hundred controversial (contestable) ball replacements that were not replaced in the [so-called] 'exact spot'...with dozens that go well beyond just being controversial and are most definitely NOT replaced in the exact spot from where it was lifted.

 

Thought you were going to stalk Westwood.

 

Yawn.

 

No need to stalk Lee - it's fully known that he's been misplacing his balls for years! :taunt:

 

Well, he can't find the cup, not playing catcher. ;-)

[Cool Hand Luke]

if you are going to take the attention to detail to mark a one foot putt (for whatever reason) then you should also take that attention when replacing the ball... she either had a brain fart or did it intentionally, either way it was blatant enough to warrant a penalty.

 

i agree, though, that the tours should not allow outside agencies to call-in/email

[warfelg]

David Duval also making the argument that the penalty for incorrect scorecard feels wrong because "she didn't have the opportunity to sign a correct scorecard". All the guys on Golf Channel making the same point right now. She didn't have the chance to sign a correct scorecard with the penalty, and that means that rule is broken.

 

Exact point I've made about 5-6 times now.

[NiagaraGolfGirl]

David Duval also making the argument that the penalty for incorrect scorecard feels wrong because "she didn't have the opportunity to sign a correct scorecard". All the guys on Golf Channel making the same point right now. She didn't have the chance to sign a correct scorecard with the penalty, and that means that rule is broken.

 

Exact point I've made about 5-6 times now.

YES! This point exactly! Which is why It was such a joke listening to those rules officials trying to justify this.

[chris975d]

I question what the PGA would have done under the exact same circumstances...

 

Tiger Woods 2013 Masters - he had already signed his card but only assessed the penalty but did not disqualify him for signing an incorrect card - that was the penalty at the time before a rules change...

 

http://www.pgatour.c...ke-penalty.html

 

Not the same - Tiger was dropping the ball.

 

What was the same was a rules infraction where the penalty was assessed after the fact and that resulted in him signing an incorrect score card. He was assessed the penalty before the start of his next round but AFTER he had signed his card the previous day. He was only assessed the penalty for the rules infraction but not for signing an incorrect card.

 

I believe rule 33-7 was already in place at this time, and that's the rule the committee leaned on not to have to DQ Tiger.

 

Here is where that rule (and decision) came into play... 2011...before Tigers incident.

 

http://www.usga.org/articles/2011/04/the-ra-and-usga-revise-decision-regarding-disqualification-for-incorrect-score-card-2147496867.html

 

 

And here's more detail about the Tiger/Masters incident.

 

 

http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/clone-tiger-woods-and-drop-inside-look-golfs-most-controversial-pardon

[Sniperman]

I have a solution to all this...

 

Every cameraman should start moonlighting as rules official! ?

[Mikey Town]

Am I the only person that doesn't feel overly sorry for her?

 

From the replays it looks pretty blatant and deliberate she wasn't putting it back in the same spot (trying to avoid a spike mark or some green imperfection maybe?)

 

Personally, it looked to me like she picked up the ball, then rotated it to line up her alignment line... not to avoid an imperfection in the green.

 

That aside... If you can't retroactively apply a penalty on a Monday, from a final round, then you shouldn't be able to do it ANY day. Once the day is done... it's done.

 

 

What I REALLY want to know is: Since they are allowed to go back and change her score, then why isn't she allowed to go back and change her signature?

 

If they want to stick her with the 2 shot penalty, then whatever. It's weak... but it is what it is. That said, when she signed the card, nobody had any knowledge of the penalty. Therefore, at the time she signed the card, the card was correct. A day later, they changed a signed card without letting her know it was being changed, then told her that she was further penalized for signing for the wrong score (which it wasn't, at the time she signed for it). She should have had the chance to accept the 2 shot penalty, re-sign the card and not be penalized an additional 2 shots.

 

I work in the mortgage business. Take a wild guess what would happen if we had a borrower sign loan docs for a loan at a 3.50% interest rate. Then, the next day, a few hours before the loan funds, we change the interest rate to 4.00% and fund the loan... letting the borrower know that we saw an adverse credit item that we didn't notice before, so they are now subject to the higher rate... AND there's nothing they can do, because they already "signed for it."

 

Yeah... that wouldn't go well for us.