PGA to begin blood testing in 2018.

[PostandGhost]

I think this will be good for the tour. Not only for the obvious reasons but think about all of the future injuries that will be prevented later in these players career.

 

Like back and leg/knee issues?

 

The fact that you can't see that Tiger's back issues were caused by Sean Foley, is mind boggling.

 

If you would do the research, you would see that he has ruined more backs than any human in history. Read up on Jamie Lovemark. He worked with Foley when Tiger did and had the exact same problem and surgeries Tiger had. Lovemark was smart though, he didn't comeback early. Took his time. But seriously do the research. There are Foley has caused numerous players to have back problems.

 

But I didn't say anything about big cat.

[Llortamaisey]

I want PED's in sports. These are professionals, let them take what they want.

 

I have always found it kind of funny that athletes can get cortisone shots and be prescribed every which type of painkiller but something like hgh under a doctor's recommendation can't be used for recovery because it's "banned". Seems like a bizarre double standard to take. Professional sports leagues should be doing everything they can to help their players heal from injury, sports are more fun when superstars are healthy and performing.

 

**Internet high five**

 

No one has ever given me a satisfactory answer to this. It's all about weird moralizing and not actual logic.

 

Yeah, I agree, complete double standard. Like when someone says a medicated DUI isn't the same as an alcohol DUI.

[Dave230]

I want PED's in sports. These are professionals, let them take what they want.

 

What is competitive sport without at least the illusion of a level playing field? Making it legal essentially forces everyone to take PEDs to compete, and I think that would be very sad, who wants to see a chemical contest? Some might say pro sport jumped the shark in relating to the general public already, that might be the straw that broke the camel's back. Doctors would become more important than coaches, drug industry would become even richer.

 

That's not even talking about the absolute disaster of the East German programme and many other doping problems on athlete's health. If there's no regulation of this kind of stuff, it gets very dangerous.

 

If you want to see records being broken through illegal and artificial means, why not allow other forms of cheating as well?

 

I just don't see it that way. If we want the illusion of a level playing field then we need to take regulations to the extreme **first time offenders are banned for life with no exceptions**

 

Can we at least agree regulations are wonderfully ineffective?

 

I would agree with harsher bans, what do a few months do really in some sports? Like getting an injury. Something in the 3-4 year range for first time offenders, and maybe lifetime for second offence. Lifetime for first mistake, no, everyone makes mistakes.

 

On the regulations, I think that the authorities are genuinely trying their best but there always seems to be a new drug makers always seem to be one step ahead of the drug preventers in sport unfortunately. I will admit that there are some grey areas, TUE usage for example.

 

But I am firmly in the camp that we should fight doping in sport. It's something I'm quite passionate about, I actually wrote a thesis on this, where I read about the BALCO scandal, Armstrong etc. I think maybe it's a cultural thing that in Europe we are more PEDs than Americans. I'm no big baseball fan but having read about Bonds, think he is a bit of a disgrace, whereas some Americans don't care that much, same as Armstrong, because 'everyone is doing it, and let them at it'.

[statmagic]

I think this will be good for the tour. Not only for the obvious reasons but think about all of the future injuries that will be prevented later in these players career.

 

Like back and leg/knee issues?

 

The fact that you can't see that Tiger's back issues were caused by Sean Foley, is mind boggling.

 

If you would do the research, you would see that he has ruined more backs than any human in history. Read up on Jamie Lovemark. He worked with Foley when Tiger did and had the exact same problem and surgeries Tiger had. Lovemark was smart though, he didn't comeback early. Took his time. But seriously do the research. There are Foley has caused numerous players to have back problems.

 

I read somewhere it was from bad jumps during his wannabe SEAL training.

[ebrasmus21]

I want PED's in sports. These are professionals, let them take what they want.

 

What is competitive sport without at least the illusion of a level playing field? Making it legal essentially forces everyone to take PEDs to compete, and I think that would be very sad, who wants to see a chemical contest? Some might say pro sport jumped the shark in relating to the general public already, that might be the straw that broke the camel's back. Doctors would become more important than coaches, drug industry would become even richer.

 

That's not even talking about the absolute disaster of the East German programme and many other doping problems on athlete's health. If there's no regulation of this kind of stuff, it gets very dangerous.

 

If you want to see records being broken through illegal and artificial means, why not allow other forms of cheating as well?

 

I just don't see it that way. If we want the illusion of a level playing field then we need to take regulations to the extreme **first time offenders are banned for life with no exceptions**

 

Can we at least agree regulations are wonderfully ineffective?

 

I would agree with harsher bans, what do a few months do really in some sports? Like getting an injury. Something in the 3-4 year range for first time offenders, and maybe lifetime for second offence. Lifetime for first mistake, no, everyone makes mistakes.

 

On the regulations, I think that the authorities are genuinely trying their best but there always seems to be a new drug makers always seem to be one step ahead of the drug preventers in sport unfortunately. I will admit that there are some grey areas, TUE usage for example.

 

But I am firmly in the camp that we should fight doping in sport. It's something I'm quite passionate about, I actually wrote a thesis on this, where I read about the BALCO scandal, Armstrong etc. I think maybe it's a cultural thing that in Europe we are more PEDs than Americans. I'm no big baseball fan but having read about Bonds, think he is a bit of a disgrace, whereas some Americans don't care that much, same as Armstrong, because 'everyone is doing it, and let them at it'.

 

I respect your opinions on these topics and I think it's clear your viewpoint is well thought-out. Maybe I'm overly simplistic in this situation but my viewpoint is something like this: these are adults and professionals that are capable of making decisions themselves good, bad or otherwise. If some - or all - PEDs are bad for health then refer back to the adults and professionals part.

 

Regulations are marginally effective at best (I think I'm being generous here). Significant and severe penalties are needed for any chance at effectiveness for regulation. When I say severe refer back to my previous post - if we don't like cheating, don't stand for cheating and want a level playing field then "everyone makes mistakes" doesn't cut it for me. One and done.

 

I'm a consumer of professional sports. PEDs help athletes do what they do. This is good for me as a consumer.

 

As far as having a level playing field - lets take my view on this to the absolute extreme for a moment. What if the PGA Tour said PEDs are allowed in all shapes and sizes? What would happen? How many people would use? I have no idea what would happen but the playing field would be level.

 

Dave230 you also made mention of allowing other forms of cheating. I'm not sure exactly what you mean like using the ol' foot-wedge here or there when no one is looking. No I'm not for that.

[RoryGenius]

I want PED's in sports. These are professionals, let them take what they want.

 

I have always found it kind of funny that athletes can get cortisone shots and be prescribed every which type of painkiller but something like hgh under a doctor's recommendation can't be used for recovery because it's "banned". Seems like a bizarre double standard to take. Professional sports leagues should be doing everything they can to help their players heal from injury, sports are more fun when superstars are healthy and performing.

 

**Internet high five**

 

No one has ever given me a satisfactory answer to this. It's all about weird moralizing and not actual logic.

 

Because one guy takes something, then the next guy takes something more, then the next guy takes more and everyone ends up dead aged 40. Jeez I dread to think what your IQ is.

[ebrasmus21]

I want PED's in sports. These are professionals, let them take what they want.

 

I have always found it kind of funny that athletes can get cortisone shots and be prescribed every which type of painkiller but something like hgh under a doctor's recommendation can't be used for recovery because it's "banned". Seems like a bizarre double standard to take. Professional sports leagues should be doing everything they can to help their players heal from injury, sports are more fun when superstars are healthy and performing.

 

**Internet high five**

 

No one has ever given me a satisfactory answer to this. It's all about weird moralizing and not actual logic.

 

Because one guy takes something, then the next guy takes something more, then the next guy takes more and everyone ends up dead aged 40. Jeez I dread to think what your IQ is.

 

RoryGenius - I guess my IQ is the same level as pro athletes that kill themselves with drugs... Idk anymore, whatever intelligence I have is rapidly leaving me. The pile of bodies from PED deaths is getting pretty big eh?

[buckeyefl]

Because one guy takes something, then the next guy takes something more, then the next guy takes more and everyone ends up dead aged 40. Jeez I dread to think what your IQ is.

 

 

Can you list the massive die offs at the age of 40 in cycling?

[ebrasmus21]

Because one guy takes something, then the next guy takes something more, then the next guy takes more and everyone ends up dead aged 40. Jeez I dread to think what your IQ is.

 

 

Can you list the massive die offs at the age of 40 in cycling?

 

We shall wait patiently for the pile of bodies.

[Philfil]

So was it really the "Zika threat" or the blood test that scared most of the BIG names away from the Olympics this past year?

 

My money is on the blood test and PED usage...

[Darth Putter]

Can we give these guys some drugs to make them play faster.

 

Like Lanny Wadkins on a double espresso fast

[ebrasmus21]

Can we give these guys some drugs to make them play faster.

 

Like Lanny Wadkins on a double espresso fast

 

Agreed Darth, agreed.

[golfgirlrobin]

Because one guy takes something, then the next guy takes something more, then the next guy takes more and everyone ends up dead aged 40. Jeez I dread to think what your IQ is.

 

 

Can you list the massive die offs at the age of 40 in cycling?

 

We shall wait patiently for the pile of bodies.

 

A quick Google search shows me that the first person to die from PED's was Knut Jensen, an Olympic cyclist way back in 1960. British cyclist Tony Simpson died the same way in '67.

 

20 Belgian and Dutch cyclists who died between 1987 and 1990 after use of EPO.

 

6 more Euro's died from the results of doping between 2003 and 2004.

 

The names and events are easily found if you look.

[ebrasmus21]

Because one guy takes something, then the next guy takes something more, then the next guy takes more and everyone ends up dead aged 40. Jeez I dread to think what your IQ is.

 

 

Can you list the massive die offs at the age of 40 in cycling?

 

We shall wait patiently for the pile of bodies.

 

A quick Google search shows me that the first person to die from PED's was Knut Jensen, an Olympic cyclist way back in 1960. British cyclist Tony Simpson died the same way in '67.

 

20 Belgian and Dutch cyclists who died between 1987 and 1990 after use of EPO.

 

6 more Euro's died from the results of doping between 2003 and 2004.

 

The names and events are easily found if you look.

 

I think cycling is a bad example. Those guys take their bodies to the extreme of what's possible with or without drugs. I'd be surprised if any health expert feels that elite level professional cycling is healthy for the athlete.

 

From my five minutes looking at Knut Jensen it appears that is a poor example as well.

[sandy]

About time. As Patrick Reed said this should do away with players just disappearing from the tour for 6 months without explanation (DJ?).. This should cancel any return by Tiger for years..

[youraway2]

Legal posturing - pure and simple

[youraway2]

About time. As Patrick Reed said this should do away with players just disappearing from the tour for 6 months without explanation (DJ?).. This should cancel any return by Tiger for years..

 

Didn't he just have a blood test?

[Dave230]

I respect your opinions on these topics and I think it's clear your viewpoint is well thought-out. Maybe I'm overly simplistic in this situation but my viewpoint is something like this: these are adults and professionals that are capable of making decisions themselves good, bad or otherwise. If some - or all - PEDs are bad for health then refer back to the adults and professionals part.

 

Regulations are marginally effective at best (I think I'm being generous here). Significant and severe penalties are needed for any chance at effectiveness for regulation. When I say severe refer back to my previous post - if we don't like cheating, don't stand for cheating and want a level playing field then "everyone makes mistakes" doesn't cut it for me. One and done.

 

I'm a consumer of professional sports. PEDs help athletes do what they do. This is good for me as a consumer.

 

As far as having a level playing field - lets take my view on this to the absolute extreme for a moment. What if the PGA Tour said PEDs are allowed in all shapes and sizes? What would happen? How many people would use? I have no idea what would happen but the playing field would be level.

 

Dave230 you also made mention of allowing other forms of cheating. I'm not sure exactly what you mean like using the ol' foot-wedge here or there when no one is looking. No I'm not for that.

 

Thanks, it is an interesting argument. I think that a 4 year penalty for a sportsperson is quite a severe penalty, that's a long time when you only have a peak for so many years, less relevant to golf as other sports but that could be $5-10m earnings for even a mid-level player.

 

My problem with it being allowed with no rules or regulation would be that it could become a game of who could get the best doctors, rather than the best coaches. I think it would be kinda sad if it got to the point where you couldn't compete without taking PEDs. Again, this is probably less relevant to golf than most other sports, but it would have an effect on golf. Imagine some small scrawny kid is destroying it at amateur and college level, Tiger Woods good, with a perfect short game and a unique playing style of shotmaking. Then he comes to the PGA Tour and everyone is hitting it 340 on demand to his 290, courses are all now over 8000 yards at the PGA Tour, and this guy has to take PEDs to gain the extra yards, change his swing etc to compete. That would be a great shame.

[golfgirlrobin]

Because one guy takes something, then the next guy takes something more, then the next guy takes more and everyone ends up dead aged 40. Jeez I dread to think what your IQ is.

 

 

Can you list the massive die offs at the age of 40 in cycling?

 

We shall wait patiently for the pile of bodies.

 

A quick Google search shows me that the first person to die from PED's was Knut Jensen, an Olympic cyclist way back in 1960. British cyclist Tony Simpson died the same way in '67.

 

20 Belgian and Dutch cyclists who died between 1987 and 1990 after use of EPO.

 

6 more Euro's died from the results of doping between 2003 and 2004.

 

The names and events are easily found if you look.

 

I think cycling is a bad example. Those guys take their bodies to the extreme of what's possible with or without drugs. I'd be surprised if any health expert feels that elite level professional cycling is healthy for the athlete.

 

From my five minutes looking at Knut Jensen it appears that is a poor example as well.

 

You wanted a pile of bodies, I gave you a pile of bodies. As Knut's death was one of the reasons the Olympics went to drug testing, he seems like a decent example. Only 23, though, so maybe he doesn't fall into the 40 year old category.

 

 

[ebrasmus21]

I respect your opinions on these topics and I think it's clear your viewpoint is well thought-out. Maybe I'm overly simplistic in this situation but my viewpoint is something like this: these are adults and professionals that are capable of making decisions themselves good, bad or otherwise. If some - or all - PEDs are bad for health then refer back to the adults and professionals part.

 

Regulations are marginally effective at best (I think I'm being generous here). Significant and severe penalties are needed for any chance at effectiveness for regulation. When I say severe refer back to my previous post - if we don't like cheating, don't stand for cheating and want a level playing field then "everyone makes mistakes" doesn't cut it for me. One and done.

 

I'm a consumer of professional sports. PEDs help athletes do what they do. This is good for me as a consumer.

 

As far as having a level playing field - lets take my view on this to the absolute extreme for a moment. What if the PGA Tour said PEDs are allowed in all shapes and sizes? What would happen? How many people would use? I have no idea what would happen but the playing field would be level.

 

Dave230 you also made mention of allowing other forms of cheating. I'm not sure exactly what you mean like using the ol' foot-wedge here or there when no one is looking. No I'm not for that.

 

Thanks, it is an interesting argument. I think that a 4 year penalty for a sportsperson is quite a severe penalty, that's a long time when you only have a peak for so many years, less relevant to golf as other sports but that could be $5-10m earnings for even a mid-level player.

 

My problem with it being allowed with no rules or regulation would be that it could become a game of who could get the best doctors, rather than the best coaches. I think it would be kinda sad if it got to the point where you couldn't compete without taking PEDs. Again, this is probably less relevant to golf than most other sports, but it would have an effect on golf. Imagine some small scrawny kid is destroying it at amateur and college level, Tiger Woods good, with a perfect short game and a unique playing style of shotmaking. Then he comes to the PGA Tour and everyone is hitting it 340 on demand to his 290, courses are all now over 8000 yards at the PGA Tour, and this guy has to take PEDs to gain the extra yards, change his swing etc to compete. That would be a great shame.

 

You make a good point. As you mention, in golf maybe its less of an issue compared to other sports but I think you make a good point. As you can clearly see my point of view is a selfish, self-serving point of view but at least I can admit it!! Your point of view is looking at the bigger picture which I can appreciate.

 

Dare I jinx us but are we having a civil agreement on the internet? This is madness.

[ebrasmus21]

Because one guy takes something, then the next guy takes something more, then the next guy takes more and everyone ends up dead aged 40. Jeez I dread to think what your IQ is.

 

 

Can you list the massive die offs at the age of 40 in cycling?

 

We shall wait patiently for the pile of bodies.

 

A quick Google search shows me that the first person to die from PED's was Knut Jensen, an Olympic cyclist way back in 1960. British cyclist Tony Simpson died the same way in '67.

 

20 Belgian and Dutch cyclists who died between 1987 and 1990 after use of EPO.

 

6 more Euro's died from the results of doping between 2003 and 2004.

 

The names and events are easily found if you look.

 

I think cycling is a bad example. Those guys take their bodies to the extreme of what's possible with or without drugs. I'd be surprised if any health expert feels that elite level professional cycling is healthy for the athlete.

 

From my five minutes looking at Knut Jensen it appears that is a poor example as well.

 

You wanted a pile of bodies, I gave you a pile of bodies. As Knut's death was one of the reasons the Olympics went to drug testing, he seems like a decent example. Only 23, though, so maybe he doesn't fall into the 40 year old category.

 

So is your argument that golfers are going to die the way these cyclists did?

[youraway2]

Will this change affect Pace-of-Play. :swoon:

[Matt J]

It's all about the beta blockers.

[Vindog]

In addition to Robin's list I'd like to add the Ravishing Rick Rude.

[new2g0lf]

This policy is more about public relations than it is about golfers health and fairness. PED's discussions are often limited to steroids and HGH but what about the pro who has a sore back or ribs and takes a prescription pain killer or has trouble sleeping while on the road and takes Ambien. Aren't those drugs enhancing the performance of the golfer and aren't there health risks associated with taking them?

 

Another area of concern is that many athletes take OTC supplements that are intended to help boost testosterone and HGH levels naturally, some of these supplement companies also produce prescription level pills and there's always the possibility of OTC products being tainted or an overzealous supplement company using illegal ingredients in their OTC supplements.

 

This is all a game of cat and mouse, those who wish to use PED's know how to cheat the tests. Professional bodybuilders are tested regularly, does anyone really believe they are all natural?

[MadGolfer76]

I was always pretty sure they would put something like this into place when TW (the "investment") became a non-issue. Things like this never go according to plan, but I think it is a healthy next step.

[buckeyefl]

Because one guy takes something, then the next guy takes something more, then the next guy takes more and everyone ends up dead aged 40. Jeez I dread to think what your IQ is.

 

 

Can you list the massive die offs at the age of 40 in cycling?

 

We shall wait patiently for the pile of bodies.

 

A quick Google search shows me that the first person to die from PED's was Knut Jensen, an Olympic cyclist way back in 1960. British cyclist Tony Simpson died the same way in '67.

 

20 Belgian and Dutch cyclists who died between 1987 and 1990 after use of EPO.

 

6 more Euro's died from the results of doping between 2003 and 2004.

 

The names and events are easily found if you look.

 

Now look up the number of cyclists competing and the rampant over the top used of PEDs in the sport for decades. The premise that there would be piles of bodies is simply silly. Also research why cyclists die.

 

The eldest was 35, the youngest 16. A couple of them were retired. Two died in their sleep, one in a race. One was a patient in a psychiatric hospital when he collapsed. Another had just left the dentist's office. All died within a 13-month span.

 

About 15 years earlier, around the time that the red cell-boosting drug EPO surfaced as a performance enhancer, there had been a similar wave of cyclists whose hearts stopped suddenly. Responsible doctors set off alarms, saying unsupervised use of the drug could thicken the blood to the point that it could no longer circulate through the body. A test to detect extraordinarily high red-blood-cell levels was developed. The deaths ebbed. In early 2004, alarms sounded again, set off this time by European journalist

 

Do you think this would be common in golf? NO.

 

But, the use of performance enhancing substances is certainly not new to cycling. In fact, the sport has had to face the issue for over a century, arguably longer than any other organized sport. Because of this dubious and lengthy history, cycling perhaps provides one of the best examples for analysis of doping in sports.

 

So a century of doping/PEDs, in fact some of the most dangerous kinds, and no piles of bodies in their 40s.

[buckeyefl]

Because one guy takes something, then the next guy takes something more, then the next guy takes more and everyone ends up dead aged 40. Jeez I dread to think what your IQ is.

 

 

Can you list the massive die offs at the age of 40 in cycling?

 

We shall wait patiently for the pile of bodies.

 

A quick Google search shows me that the first person to die from PED's was Knut Jensen, an Olympic cyclist way back in 1960. British cyclist Tony Simpson died the same way in '67.

 

20 Belgian and Dutch cyclists who died between 1987 and 1990 after use of EPO.

 

6 more Euro's died from the results of doping between 2003 and 2004.

 

The names and events are easily found if you look.

 

I think cycling is a bad example. Those guys take their bodies to the extreme of what's possible with or without drugs. I'd be surprised if any health expert feels that elite level professional cycling is healthy for the athlete.

 

From my five minutes looking at Knut Jensen it appears that is a poor example as well.

 

You wanted a pile of bodies, I gave you a pile of bodies. As Knut's death was one of the reasons the Olympics went to drug testing, he seems like a decent example. Only 23, though, so maybe he doesn't fall into the 40 year old category.

 

Thats your pile of bodies? Again I used cycling on purpose because they use the most dangerous, cutting edge products/procedures and not one pile of bodies to be found.

[Wooderson]

Do some of you really think there are no negative consequences of PEDs? Really?

 

We don't even allow our military personnel to take PEDs (outside of go/no go pills on a very limited basis) to better sustain their life in combat. Think people think.

[ebrasmus21]

Do some of you really think there are no negative consequences of PEDs? Really?

 

We don't even allow our military personnel to take PEDs (outside of go/no go pills on a very limited basis) to better sustain their life in combat. Think people think.

 

No one here has made those claims. I know a guy that has a friend who's once met a dude on seal team 6 and they get the good stuff ;) Classified.