Why Is This Old, Beat-Up Wooden Driver So Expensive?

[EmperorPenguin]

I understand that the best persimmon woods were made during the early 1950's. As of this writing, this particular MacGregor driver is up for sale and the auction stands now at 39 bids with the current high bid at $1228.03. This driver face is very deep, measuring 1 7/8". The driver looks horrid, as the attached pictures will attest. Despite that, people are still willing to pay very much for this old driver. Can somebody here please explain why this driver would be so expensive given the poor shape it is in?

[HoganApexBlades]

Because it's an M09 (L.F.F.)...

[last snowstorm]

... and it turned into an 'irrational exuberance' bidding war

[dan360]

The holy grail of vintage Macgregor persimmon.

 

Judging from the pictures and description, other than some loss of finish and general age the wood, insert, floorplate, and shaft are in great shape.

 

It will restore to museum quality in the right hands, although original patina can be worth more.

 

There is a thread ongoing in the classics forum about it.

[EmperorPenguin]

What does LFF stand for?

[mocokid]

Let the F#cker Fly, I think.

[HoganApexBlades]

Let the F#cker Fly, I think.

 

^^^Confirmed^^^

[mocokid]

that driver is in very, very good shape, grain looks great. The other thing is any cracks in the hosel, which can't be seen due to the whipping.

[tstephen]

that driver is in very, very good shape, grain looks great. The other thing is any cracks in the hosel, which can't be seen due to the whipping.

 

The grain looks U-shaped to the toe from the top or crown picture. However, the 2 toe pictures paint a different picture. You can see the grain not U-shaping on the direct toe picture and "towards the rear" toe picture the grain is pretty much sideways. The club is nice, but I already rated it a 6/10 in the post I started. Lower heel issue, light pitting, not great grain, not original grip, and loss of finish. This was out of control bidding. Might as well buy the 7 waaaaaaay overpriced Mac Ltd Editon Nicklaus sets. The 4 wood set should be $200 tops and not several thousand. I wish Ebay would do something about gross overpriced items.

[elwhippy]

What a great shaped head. Price mad but I bet it will look stunning refurbished.

[EmperorPenguin]

No doubt this is a bomber face, and I guess the deeper the face, the more clubhead speed will be needed. The original listing also stated that the dark spot on the face is in the grain which indicates hardness--maybe it was from the knotty part of the tree?

[augustgolf]

Just wondering, for those who know....where does the George Bayer MacGregor deep face persimmon driver rate among vintage persimmon drivers? Assuming, overall condition is what would be expected from a club of that age...no obvious signs of abuse, no toe/heel damamge, original finish, etc....

 

Have seen/played a few (obviously a few years ago) and always wondered where they stood in the scheme of things

[tstephen]

What a great shaped head. Price mad but I bet it will look stunning refurbished.

 

If someone refurbishes it, they should have not bid more than $300.

 

At the level of bidding, I think these bidders want to keep the club "original."

[EmperorPenguin]

I thought the "holy grail" of persimmons was an original M85 or a MacGregor Tommy Armour 945W, but you guys know better. M09 I never heard of before coming here to GolfWRX. Did any of the golf legends play the M09?

[tstephen]

that driver is in very, very good shape, grain looks great. The other thing is any cracks in the hosel, which can't be seen due to the whipping.

 

I always check the neck since I have rarely bought a 50 Mac persimmon with original whipping. The deepest LFF I ever bought I returned to the seller when I found nearly half the neck was epoxy.

[Texsport]

Actually refreshing to see the old, cherished persimmon woods in my collection gaining in collector value, instead of declining.

 

The REAL premium heads are those with wood so dense, they have no back weights.

 

Texsport

[Maxwell]

What does LFF stand for?

 

"Large Full Face"

Dekker - Toronto Golf Form

 

Blair

Canada

[dan360]

Technically "Large Full Face"

 

Toney Penna used to say "Large F'n Face"

 

Some others used to say "Let the F'r Fly"

 

Charley Penna posts around here somewhere, maybe he will chime in. :)

 

At any rate, aside from a few one offs that are quite rare (single digit productions) the LFF in all its variations (M09, M09T, Penna Model 40(?)) are the deep face bombers of the days gone by.

 

What would it equate to today? The R510DF proto? The TM300 Tour? That Adams 9015D proto marked LDA?

 

Hard telling but I've seen dozens and dozens of M85 variations and only a handful of the LFFs.

 

There's one around here somewhere stamped "Dino"....for Dean Martin. Pretty cool.

 

 

[dan360]

No doubt this is a bomber face, and I guess the deeper the face, the more clubhead speed will be needed. The original listing also stated that the dark spot on the face is in the grain which indicates hardness--maybe it was from the knotty part of the tree?

 

The black is a mineral deposit, usually carbon. In a hardwood like persimmon the opinion is an older, denser block of wood would have carbon deposits.

 

Carbon or other mineral deposits in a tree can happen for a variety of reasons and at various stages in a tree's life, though. Fire, flood, et al. Not always indicative of age or of "better."

 

Aesthetically pleasing to some people. A distraction to others. YMMV.

[HoganApexBlades]

Technically "Large Full Face"

 

Toney Penna used to say "Large F'n Face"

 

Some others used to say "Let the F'r Fly"

 

Charley Penna posts around here somewhere, maybe he will chime in. :)

 

At any rate, aside from a few one offs that are quite rare (single digit productions) the LFF in all its variations (M09, M09T, Penna Model 40(?)) are the deep face bombers of the days gone by.

 

What would it equate to today? The R510DF proto? The TM300 Tour? That Adams 9015D proto marked LDA?

 

Hard telling but I've seen dozens and dozens of M85 variations and only a handful of the LFFs.

 

There's one around here somewhere stamped "Dino"....for Dean Martin. Pretty cool.

 

Tommy Armour has been credited with the motto, "Let the F.cker Fly" and had his personal drivers stamped "L.F.F.".

[majic]

Pretty sure I know where the turning master is. Saw a persimmon blank from it.

[Ironmaster Oddities]

Just wondering, for those who know....where does the George Bayer MacGregor deep face persimmon driver rate among vintage persimmon drivers? Assuming, overall condition is what would be expected from a club of that age...no obvious signs of abuse, no toe/heel damamge, original finish, etc....

 

Have seen/played a few (obviously a few years ago) and always wondered where they stood in the scheme of things

Bayer DX-300 is a Super-eye-0-matic and, imo every bit the club that the M09 is. Similar sized head as M09 but with the larger Super Eye insert. A little easier to hit, I think. Then the Bayer GB 1 Velocitized as close behind, followed by another GB 1 with a regular red face. All have 1-3/4+ face depth. I will try to post a couple pics later uncle Bob

[rex235]

Penguin-

 

It may have to do that someone needs this year to fill out their "collection" of M09 LFF models.

 

The color of that particular M09 is what some have referred to as "Royal Eggplant"

 

Dave Wood told me for those 1997 Centennial Production Persimmon Woods, MacGregor had to contract with a Japanese company to match the "Eggplant" color, It was the most expensive color to reproduce.

 

Have already posted my photos of the LH MacGregor MT M09 LFF , and the LH MacGregor MT M80W (Yes, they made a few...)

 

There might be a RH M09 Jumbo LFF which can be purchased for significantly less, and might be in better condition.

 

PS- +1 with Ironmaster Bob, who has one of the definitive MacGregor Persimmon Collections,

 

Agree with his comments on MacGregor George Bayer models. (Someone actually had a LH set of MacGregor George Bayers on EBay, but they were NOT in good condition.)

[weeicemon]

Technically "Large Full Face"

 

Toney Penna used to say "Large F'n Face"

 

Some others used to say "Let the F'r Fly"

 

Charley Penna posts around here somewhere, maybe he will chime in. :)

 

At any rate, aside from a few one offs that are quite rare (single digit productions) the LFF in all its variations (M09, M09T, Penna Model 40(?)) are the deep face bombers of the days gone by.

 

What would it equate to today? The R510DF proto? The TM300 Tour? That Adams 9015D proto marked LDA?

 

Hard telling but I've seen dozens and dozens of M85 variations and only a handful of the LFFs.

 

There's one around here somewhere stamped "Dino"....for Dean Martin. Pretty cool.

 

The "Dino" driver belonged to me at one point. Traded it to Teevons for a bunch of fake Scotty Cameron headcovers. Ouch!!

[RobotDoctor]

This is my M09 LFF (1953). It is not a Jumbo but it is still a LFF. I has sent this to someone for refinish but the job was incomplete. I will end up sending it to Dave Wood for a complete restore. This isn't perfect grain but it is U grain, just not centered . Fortunately mine was far less than the auction price of the LFF in this thread.

 

This is one of the drivers that was on my most desired list. I am, and will be, on the prowl for a set of WW Specials and a MacGregor Hogan 4393 driver.

[rex235]

Robot-

 

In reading those stamps in the area above the soleplate again....

 

 

Isn't it stamped M09T....Jumbo.....LFF?

[RobotDoctor]

Robot-

 

In reading those stamps in the area above the soleplate again....

 

 

Isn't it stamped M09T....Jumbo.....LFF?

 

Good grief, damn my eyes. So it is. :D

[dpark]

I've had a chance to hit an M09 LFF and it was very difficult to hit well with a modern ball. The face was probably only 9* and the Pro-V1 IMO just didn't spin enough to keep the ball in the air.

 

I've had much better luck with 2 woods which typically had 12* of loft which put more spin on the ball.

 

But they are cool looking drivers.

[RobotDoctor]

I've had a chance to hit an M09 LFF and it was very difficult to hit well with a modern ball. The face was probably only 9* and the Pro-V1 IMO just didn't spin enough to keep the ball in the air.

 

I've had much better luck with 2 woods which typically had 12* of loft which put more spin on the ball.

 

But they are cool looking drivers.

 

Try a Bridgestone e5 ball. I've found success with this ball and persimmon woods. Of course I have a few Titlist Balata balls when I take one of my persimmon woods out.

[dpark]

I play the Wilson zip ball and it is great for persimmon, but still not enough spin for me. A 12* driver is what I need for my swing