Games November 2022 - In Closing...

[games]

After some work I think the NTC is ready for prime time.  
 

http://youtu.be/JlnujbNQiHE

 

[games]

I’m off to my annual golf junket.  Wanted to see Monte in CA, but my wife wanted PHX. Then, she ended up not going.  Grr...

 

Made arrangements to see Jeremy Anderson @JJAGOLFagain, which is always a fun learning experience!  He’s getting Uber-popular.  I believe the resort sets his rates, which are now around Martin Chuck’s private lesson rates at The Raven across the street!  Jeremy has a stable of kids with great looking swings.  I’d be shocked if a couple weren’t playing on TV someday...

 

Last year, I was preoccupied with work, but not as much this year.  So hopeful a better frame of mind will allow more reception / retention and less thick-headedness.  Hopeful Jeremy recognizes changes from Monte’s No Turn Cast framework.  I’m fortunate Monte and Jeremy have compatible approaches and patience in dealing with me!

[games]

This is taken before lessons started.  Jeremy lined up my old 2020 video against a few swings prior to starting our 2021 sessions. 

 

The first comparison is at the top.  Credit Jeremy here, as I kept working a couple of weeks after my 2020 visit, and was able to achieve the "at the top" shot in my avatar!  I was able to retain it (right photo below).  

 

Monte's No Turn Cast video, specifically the instruction around the technique and direction of "Cast A" have been a breakthrough that allows me to achieve my new P6 position.

 

 

 

Jeremy's comment to me:  "Huge progress." 

And we hadn't even started to work, yet!

[Hawkeye77]

On 1/5/2021 at 10:12 AM, games said:

This is taken before lessons started.  Jeremy lined up my old 2020 video against a few swings prior to starting our 2021 sessions. 

 

The first comparison is at the top.  Credit Jeremy here, as I kept working a couple of weeks after my 2020 visit, and was able to achieve the "at the top" shot in my avatar!  I was able to retain it (right photo below).  

 

Monte's No Turn Cast video, specifically the instruction around the technique and direction of "Cast A" have been a breakthrough that allows me to achieve my new P6 position.

 

 

 

Jeremy's comment to me:  "Huge progress." 

And we hadn't even started to work, yet!

Any updates? Analysis? 

[games]

This year, I scaled back my lessons with Jeremy (from 5 hours to 3 hours), doing a 2-hour lesson at the start, then taking a 1-hour lesson between my second and third rounds.  Again, I'm not a competitive golfer, just trying to not look like a chop.  I think I'm there, now!

 

First Lesson we worked full swing only, and Jeremy was flat out complimentary about changes from No Turn Cast.  Main issues continue to be thin shots and pulled shots.  Monte always told me I had "bad dance moves" with lower body.  Jeremy's prescription:  A longer backswing (told me to think "John Daly") and do the squat move on the downswing to put more downward pressure on the trail ankle.  The LM numbers were clear:  Clubhead is 5 mph faster and angle of attack is steeper when my trail ankle stays down at impact.  

 

First round, I shot 45-49 from 6500 yards with five "extra" greenside bunker shots probably adding a total of 8 unnecessary strokes with added putting distance taken into account.  Second round I didn't play it down (I'd guess 92-94) with more bunker woes. 

 

Second lesson, I told Jeremy bunker play was a problem, so we spent 20 minutes on conventional sand technique.    Changes:  Get MUCH lower at address, open the face, feel like body turn leads the shaft through the shot and the grip of the club stays low and close to the body at finish.  Worked beautiful in practice.  Would it work on the course?  

 

Third round (after second lesson) 41-42, and I felt like I put it all together tee-to-green.  Putting was MIA.  Two sand shots, put both inside of 8 feet from the pin.  Just a great last round of golf for me.  This should be my "new norm."  I should play like a single digit, and be a threat to make or break par when the putter is on.

 

[games]

On Friday of the trip, I went to the practice facility with just my 8-iron.  Just to say goodbye to Jeremy and get a few final swings in warm weather.  One thing Jeremy told me is I don't give myself enough credit for improving, for as little "real golf" as I play.  He's probably right.  I choose to work with guys like Jeremy and Monte because they aren't dogmatic, and they teach principles behind their directions.  It allows me a way to figure out a better mousetrap if their direction doesn't resonate.

 

On Friday, the adoption of the longer backswing gave me a feel I've been trying to achieve for awhile which is a "natural" weight transfer on a dry, practice swing.  As I reach the top, I feel pressure transferring to the lead foot at the same rate the club reaches the top of the swing.  On the downswing, I feel a bit of pressure to "leak back" to the trail heel, and this feels very natural to me.  My last practice ended with me hitting 27-28 solid shots out of the 30 I took.

[games]

In the still below, you can see by keeping the trail ankle and foot in check, I get even more depth at p6.

 

Full video of swing here:

 

Edited January 9, 2021 by games

[Golfbeat]

You might benefit from still doing some work on the 7 o'clock back swing. I think that you pull the arms a little bit too much behind you without enough wrist hinge. Just my 50 cents.

[Hawkeye77]

I'm sure someone who knows what they are talking about will say this isn't an apt comparison but I see some Tom Lehman in your move and that can't be a bad thing, IMO.

[games]

Owed @Golfbeat and @Hawkeye77 some thanks for comments I never got back to.  Thanks guys!

 

So, I did a Club Champion fitting this past week.  We have a new CC here in Des Moines, and I had great banter with Russell my fitter, and also with Matt, the other fitter in the store.   In the pre-fitting questionnaire, I debated as to what to report my scores at.  I just decided to call myself low-to-mid 80s based on the improvement shown in the few rounds I had last summer and in PHX a month ago. 

 

Biggest news is clubhead speed (CHS) with 6-iron is now consistently low 80s.  During our first break (middle of iron fitting), I asked Russell to assess my swing versus others who have come in to the new store.  He told me that I was one of the best iron players they've had in, and he couldn't believe I shot in the 80s! 

 

I NEVER look at shafts or clubs during fittings, otherwise my analytical mind takes over and I talk too much.  So, I was pleased and shocked at the iron shaft I was fit into:  Steelfiber i95 S!  It wasn't long ago that I used to think of Steelfiber as rebar.  Again, a testament to progress made with the help of @MonteScheinblum and @JJAGOLF.  Also, my current shafts were assessed as being an inch too long!

 

All wasn't rosy though.  I have a serious mental block with driver.  With 6-iron in low 80s, driver CHS should be 97-102.  But, it's stuck in low 90s.  I need to pull my head out of my hole with driver.   Monte used to say to me I just need to "Hulk Smash."  Maybe now, with a swing I can trust, it's time to "Hulk smash" and "just do it" and "let the big dog eat" and all the other sayings I need to obey to shut my mind off and be an athlete with the big stick.  Also, Monte's put out new videos related to Cast B and release.

 

On the equipment side, I've been using the original Jumbomax grips, but it took my irons from D0 SW down to C6!  Russell said he would put me in midsize or even in standard +4 based on glove size (L), hand measurements, and how I held the demo clubs.  (Surprisingly, the fitting using standard size grips was not unpleasant, as long as I wore a glove to maintain grip.  Don't get me wrong, the fitting shafts still felt like twigs, but adjustment wasn't really tough.)  Maybe, going back to standard sizing will help driver, too?  

 

As usual, any ideas and thoughts are welcome!  I know this journey isn't as sexy as some others out there.  I wish I could throw down scores and have better technique like@Schnee or just a better body.  My goal here is to show it's never too late in life to listen, learn and improve.  Again, so many thanks to @MonteScheinblum and @JJAGOLF.  (I think Monte is actually doing a clinic at Jeremy's center in PHX this weekend.)

[Hawkeye77]

48 minutes ago, games said:

Owed @Golfbeat and @Hawkeye77 some thanks for comments I never got back to.  Thanks guys!

 

So, I did a Club Champion fitting this past week.  We have a new CC here in Des Moines, and I had great banter with Russell my fitter, and also with Matt, the other fitter in the store.   In the pre-fitting questionnaire, I debated as to what to report my scores at.  I just decided to call myself low-to-mid 80s based on the improvement shown in the few rounds I had last summer and in PHX a month ago. 

 

Biggest news is clubhead speed (CHS) with 6-iron is now consistently low 80s.  During our first break (middle of iron fitting), I asked Russell to assess my swing versus others who have come in to the new store.  He told me that I was one of the best iron players they've had in, and he couldn't believe I shot in the 80s! 

 

I NEVER look at shafts or clubs during fittings, otherwise my analytical mind takes over and I talk too much.  So, I was pleased and shocked at the iron shaft I was fit into:  Steelfiber i95 S!  It wasn't long ago that I used to think of Steelfiber as rebar.  Again, a testament to progress made with the help of @MonteScheinblum and @JJAGOLF.  Also, my current shafts were assessed as being an inch too long!

 

All wasn't rosy though.  I have a serious mental block with driver.  With 6-iron in low 80s, driver CHS should be 97-102.  But, it's stuck in low 90s.  I need to pull my head out of my hole with driver.   Monte used to say to me I just need to "Hulk Smash."  Maybe now, with a swing I can trust, it's time to "Hulk smash" and "just do it" and "let the big dog eat" and all the other sayings I need to obey to shut my mind off and be an athlete with the big stick.  Also, Monte's put out new videos related to Cast B and release.

 

On the equipment side, I've been using the original Jumbomax grips, but it took my irons from D0 SW down to C6!  Russell said he would put me in midsize or even in standard +4 based on glove size (L), hand measurements, and how I held the demo clubs.  (Surprisingly, the fitting using standard size grips was not unpleasant, as long as I wore a glove to maintain grip.  Don't get me wrong, the fitting shafts still felt like twigs, but adjustment wasn't really tough.)  Maybe, going back to standard sizing will help driver, too?  

 

As usual, any ideas and thoughts are welcome!  I know this journey isn't as sexy as some others out there.  I wish I could throw down scores and have better technique like@Schnee or just a better body.  My goal here is to show it's never too late in life to listen, learn and improve.  Again, so many thanks to @MonteScheinblum and @JJAGOLF.  (I think Monte is actually doing a clinic at Jeremy's center in PHX this weekend.)

Just noticed that CC popped up in West Des Moines - nice facility?

[games]

22 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Just noticed that CC popped up in West Des Moines - nice facility?

 

Very nice facilities.  Fitting on Trackman 4.  Putting on SAM PuttLab.  My fitting experience was great!  Russell, my fitter was really good.  They go through a TON of product line training when they attend CC University.  And, Russell took full advantage, getting certified not only with corporate training, but he obtained certifications from about 10 club and shaft manufacturers as well.

 

Russell has contacted me a few times since the fitting.  Obviously, their ultimate goal is to get you to buy.  Their value to me is providing a comprehensive fitting which I have no problem paying for as long as they provide me with the lengths, lofts, lies and club recommendations at the end.  For me, the only clubs we agreed would provide some incremental improvement would be putter (Cleveland Elevado Slant Neck) and fairway wood.

 

Adding:  Changes to irons, as well.  He fit me into Srixon ZX5 which have similar lofts and game improvement features as my current Maltby TS2s.

Edited February 21, 2021 by games

[Hawkeye77]

1 minute ago, games said:

 

Very nice facilities.  Fitting on Trackman 4.  Putting on SAM PuttLab.  My fitting experience was great!  Russell, my fitter was really good.  They go through a TON of product line training when they attend CC University.  And, Russell took full advantage, getting certified not only with corporate training, but he obtained certifications from about 10 club and shaft manufacturers as well.

 

Russell has contacted me a few times since the fitting.  Obviously, their ultimate goal is to get you to buy.  Their value to me is providing a comprehensive fitting which I have no problem paying for as long as they provide me with the lengths, lofts, lies and club recommendations at the end.  For me, the only clubs we agreed would provide some incremental improvement would be putter (Cleveland Elevado Slant Neck) and fairway wood.

Oooooh, SAM lab is what I was hoping to hear! I've got a putter project going and it may sound counterproductive (although I've my putter specs confirmed a few times) but I'd like to go just to see what's what with my setup and stroke with my putter, not one they want to sell me.  Fun.

[games]

@Hawkeye77 Definitely worth it.  My putter stroke is actually over-the-top!  But, they had good feedback on my stance and style.  Fitter noted my eyes were too far over the ball.  When they started handing me different putters, I closed my putting stance. 

 

After one stroke with the Cleveland Elevado Slant Neck, the hole got really big for me.

[Nels55]

Hi games, I am Herbert from the SA and AS forums.  I am curious how your Wright Balance training fits in with the swing you are using now?  

[games]

4 hours ago, Nels55 said:

Hi games, I am Herbert from the SA and AS forums.  I am curious how your Wright Balance training fits in with the swing you are using now?  

Hey!  Good to hear from you!  Making me think about a reply to you actually got me thinking of something to change.  I'll address Wright Balance at the end...

 

I have played well with narrower stances.  My full swing stance is probably most other people's pitching stance.  I learned that the wider my stance, the more my pivot gets inhibited.

 

But, my last lessons also revealed my club speed increases when I roll trail ankle in, rather than stand up on toe.  This habit of ending up on toe has been a challenge to break, but your question made me realize it might be easier to achieve with a wider stance.  There might be a solid trade off there.

 

The WB stuff has been interesting, but admittedly, as an analytical, I have trouble grasping the concepts behind it.  I am given five stance widths between 5 to 30 inches that put me "in balance."  Yet, it seems like the system is saying you can be at 24" but 23" and 25" are bad.  But, my next widest prescribed width might be 28".  So 25" is bad but 28" is good?   Dr. Wright and the last pro I went to see and Larry Rinker all seem legit.  Just because I can't "see it" doesn't mean it doesn't work...

[bortass]

On 2/20/2021 at 8:58 AM, games said:

[snip]

Also, Monte's put out new videos related to Cast B and release.

 

[snip]

Where are these videos located? I went looking for them on both Rebellion Golf and the Rebellion Golf Youtube channels and came up empty.

[Krt22]

13 minutes ago, bortass said:

Where are these videos located? I went looking for them on both Rebellion Golf and the Rebellion Golf Youtube channels and came up empty.

https://rebelliongolf.com/no-turn_cast/

[Nels55]

39 minutes ago, games said:

Hey!  Good to hear from you!  Making me think about a reply to you actually got me thinking of something to change.  I'll address Wright Balance at the end...

 

I have played well with narrower stances.  My full swing stance is probably most other people's pitching stance.  I learned that the wider my stance, the more my pivot gets inhibited.

 

But, my last lessons also revealed my club speed increases when I roll trail ankle in, rather than stand up on toe.  This habit of ending up on toe has been a challenge to break, but your question made me realize it might be easier to achieve with a wider stance.  There might be a solid trade off there.

 

The WB stuff has been interesting, but admittedly, as an analytical, I have trouble grasping the concepts behind it.  I am given five stance widths between 5 to 30 inches that put me "in balance."  Yet, it seems like the system is saying you can be at 24" but 23" and 25" are bad.  But, my next widest prescribed width might be 28".  So 25" is bad but 28" is good?   Dr. Wright and the last pro I went to see and Larry Rinker all seem legit.  Just because I can't "see it" doesn't mean it doesn't work...

Thanks for the reply!  I am thinking of doing a Wright Balance fitting up in Walnut Creek with a guy named Rick Eisenhour.  I would be interested in seeing what core that they say I am supposed to be.  The problem that I have with the concept is that I have seen some of the tests that they do and they look just a bit subjective to me.  Some of it actually looks like voodoo to me.  LOL my experience with lessons and such over the last 38 years or so has not been positive so I am a bit hesitant to pull the trigger on this one as I would not want to have an experience like you had with your first Wright Balance fitting.  I suppose I will probably try it out mostly out of curiosity.  Based on your experience do think that it was worthwhile?   I believe you were assessed as lower core?  If that is correct are swinging in a lower core fashion now? 

 

As for keeping your trail heel on the ground and rolling your foot I would guess that would mitigate a tendency to get the weight going onto the toes resulting in a possible outside in move?  I battle the same which was very evident on force plate measurements.  

 

[bortass]

10 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

https://rebelliongolf.com/no-turn_cast/

I thought @games was referring to something new within the last few weeks. I have NTC and really like and was hoping there was more stuff added 🙂

[games]

3 hours ago, bortass said:

Where are these videos located? I went looking for them on both Rebellion Golf and the Rebellion Golf Youtube channels and came up empty.

I think they were on either Instagram or Facebook (or both) about a week ago.  

Add:  Found it.  "David Duval Demonstrating Cast B from No Turn Cast"

Edited February 23, 2021 by games

[games]

@Nels55  Your mind is like mine.  You're inquisitive and analytical.  You'll do it.  LOL!.

 

My first assessment was lower core, and second was mid-core.  TBH, lower core was shocking and mid-core surprising.  But, the second pro whom I trust (and really like) said my flexibility tests in WB set me apart, and she could see how I could be assessed as lower core.

 

I just ran across this driver stance width test from Mike Adams.  I had heard Adams and Wright were sharing body type findings.  The last step ("thumbs up") is a very "Wright-esque" approach, IMO.  (By the way, the test shows me with a fairly narrow driver stance of about 19".  I love this stuff!  

https://golf.com/instruction/driving/hall-fame-teacher-mike-adams-stance-width-driver-test/

 

  

[Nels55]

On 2/23/2021 at 1:41 PM, games said:

@Nels55  Your mind is like mine.  You're inquisitive and analytical.  You'll do it.  LOL!.

 

My first assessment was lower core, and second was mid-core.  TBH, lower core was shocking and mid-core surprising.  But, the second pro whom I trust (and really like) said my flexibility tests in WB set me apart, and she could see how I could be assessed as lower core.

 

I just ran across this driver stance width test from Mike Adams.  I had heard Adams and Wright were sharing body type findings.  The last step ("thumbs up") is a very "Wright-esque" approach, IMO.  (By the way, the test shows me with a fairly narrow driver stance of about 19".  I love this stuff!  

https://golf.com/instruction/driving/hall-fame-teacher-mike-adams-stance-width-driver-test/

 

  

Inquisitive mind killed the cat did it not?  You are probably right that I will do it though I can think back on falling for so many sales pitches with their promises of the one way to a pro swing and so on.  I have a lot of videos and books and so sold on that pitch.  Also a number of live lessons.

 

It sounds like maybe you thought that you were upper core and you were a bit surprised to be mid or even lower core?  It does seem to me that the measurement system is not particularly precise if you could be measured at lower or mid core?  I know that there are a lot of zones in each core so maybe you are more lower mid core? 

 

I do think that perhaps the swing mechanic sets that they propose for each core are all sound.  Possibly increasing or decreasing mobility could change the core measurement?  My work with Muscle Activation Technique definitely increase my range of motion and also my tolerance for certain motions like 'clearing the hips' etc.  I do remember getting home after my first M.A.T. session and hitting some balls on my simulator setup.  I felt like I was whipping my hips through involuntarily and while doing it I was panicking that I was going to hurt my back.  LOL that was fun!  Oh well, there seems to be only one way for me to find out...

[games]

So, any swing journey is going to have setbacks.  The past week, I developed a serious case of fat and chunky pitches.  The message I got back from Monte:  Excess lower body.  He just knows me.  Chips and pitches improved right away.  Lower body is the next frontier.  More baskets-between-the-legs.  I may still go all-in on Stack and Tilt for lower body.

 

The swing changes from NTC have shown me how equipment needs to change when you approach the ball from inside versus on-the-line or OTT. I hit NS Pro Modus3 105S really well in a fitting last fall, so I put together a 7-iron with a Jumbomax Ultralite grip. I just can't feel the club!  It is so light.  Clearly, the larger grip has an impact on the dynamic swing of the club.  I suspect the effect will be same if I put a JMax on a 95g Steelfiber.

 

I threw a Jumbomax Tour on a AMT S300 shaft, and it felt great!  I am tempted to try an Ultralite in the same shaft.

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, games said:

So, any swing journey is going to have setbacks.  The past week, I developed a serious case of fat and chunky pitches.  The message I got back from Monte:  Excess lower body.  He just knows me.  Chips and pitches improved right away.  Lower body is the next frontier.  More baskets-between-the-legs.  I may still go all-in on Stack and Tilt for lower body.

 

The swing changes from NTC have shown me how equipment needs to change when you approach the ball from inside versus on-the-line or OTT. I hit NS Pro Modus3 105S really well in a fitting last fall, so I put together a 7-iron with a Jumbomax Ultralite grip. I just can't feel the club!  It is so light.  Clearly, the larger grip has an impact on the dynamic swing of the club.  I suspect the effect will be same if I put a JMax on a 95g Steelfiber.

 

I threw a Jumbomax Tour on a AMT S300 shaft, and it felt great!  I am tempted to try an Ultralite in the same shaft.

The big basket had me thinking what it must feel like to ride a Clydesdale, lol!

 

 

[games]

@Hawkeye77 It's really tough for me, having good hand-eye with the lower body control of Linda Blair in The Exorcist.  At least you could coordinate it!  I just need to get over it and do the Nike drill on this one... 

[games]

Equipment-wise, I went through the arsenal yesterday trying to decide on irons.  Years ago, I overestimated my ability in picking shafts I couldn't really handle.  Now, I can play them!  I tested mid-irons in the following:

- Maltby TS2 with Kuro Kage Black 75g stiff w Jumbomax wraps (RIP KK shafts!);

- Edel SLS-01 with 110g R shafts (5-iron w Jumbomax wrap; 6-iron with Gripmaster oversize);

- Maltby MMB-17 Black w AMT S300 (6-iron w Jumbomax Tour; 7-iron w Lamkin UTX midsize);

- Maltby TS1 w Pro Modus3 105S w Jumbomax Ultralite (these surprised me feeling like a balloon on a stick);

 

I decided to keep two sets, including the Edel SLs which will get JMax Ultralite 4-GW.  The conventional set will have TS2 or TS1 (or combo) on the AMTs gripped with JMax Tour.  The heavier grip nicely counterbalances the heavier AMT shafts.  (That will leave me with MMB-Black heads and the Modus 105S which are matte black.  Those can be my first club build.)

 

I'm going to start a topic in the Club Tech section on the properties of the Jumbomax unrelated to grip weight or swing weighting.  I swing "conventional" grips different from Jumbomax, and it's not all counterbalance.  There is something to be said for a secure grip, hand shape, and grip traction too.

[games]

Sent @MonteScheinblum a video for analysis.  He liked the swing, hated the EE that crept in from my right hip just kicking out to the ball for no reason.  I've been working on making sure pressure is transferred to lead leg, so the trail hip "kick out" is probably a bad reflex. 

 

Monte told me to widen my stance (which took care of about half the issue) and look at a few videos on EE.  Also, I know "zipper away" is a good drill for this.  So, I fixed it!  (OK.  That's a bit strong.  It will need reps.  But, as shown below in the before and after photos, I do have ability to adjust.) 

 

Clearly, the right hip not kicking out creates more room for the hands to pass.  As shown below, it's only a couple of inches of gap between hands and hips, but it's more than what I had earlier in the week as shown in the "before" snip.  And, in the before photo, you can see my ample derriere out behind my heels and generally "hunched."  In the after, with a wider stance and better intent, I'm just "taller" and delivering the club more freely.  Baby steps...

 

 

   

Here's a link to the after video:

 

 

Edited July 25, 2021 by games
Add Video Link

[leekgolf]

@games Reading the thread I'm not sure, how often do you get lessons? Is this once per year? More often?

 

How long do you work on a change before you have it?

 

How many instructors do you work with? Is there something you do to get them all working on the same priorities?

[games]

2 minutes ago, leekgolf said:

@games Reading the thread I'm not sure, how often do you get lessons? Is this once per year? More often?

 

How long do you work on a change before you have it?

 

How many instructors do you work with? Is there something you do to get them all working on the same priorities?

Good questions!  I've been doing lessons once per year for the past seven years.  The first four years, I saw Monte, and the last three I saw Jeremy Anderson.  Jeremy is super, but he's also super expensive.  I just shot Monte a video out of the blue this past week.  He hasn't seen me in four years, and certainly not since I watched No Turn Cast.  Monte and Jeremy are very compatible.  Again, Jeremy was highly complimentary of the changes I made after watching Monte's No Turn Cast video.

 

Regarding swing changes, as this thread shows, like many golfers, I am guilty of premature optimism and over-optimism.  The change to rid myself of OTT took forever because I deluded myself into thinking I had it licked in 2018.  This Early Extension was always around, but I never felt it was an issue.  I've put on some pounds, and it is now more prevalent.  It could probably have been addressed sooner. 

 

But, this week, Monte told me "Your swing looks great.  Your major flaw is your right hip."  For whatever reason, I was able to pick this one up quicker.  It will still take reps.  But, I can do it...  Once this is fixed, I'm hopeful it literally will open a path to faster club speed...