Rolling back the ball

[mahonie]

I doesn’t work that way in the UK. Generally, you have tees for daily play (yellow - men) and tees for competitions (usually white). Ladies play off red tees and that is it. The course today did have a set of Blue tees which are for Elite competitions only.

 

The average for the par 4s is 370 yards with 426 yards being the longest and 300 yards the shortest...so very much on the short side by today’s standards.

 

I just checked and the last pro tournament was actually held in 1969 but it did hold the British Amateur in 2010 which was won by Tommy Fleetwood.

 

That seems like a silly rule that should change. Is it for pace of play management?

 

There is no space to build multiple teeing grounds into hardly any golf course in the UK. Prime development land can start at £1m/acre...just think how expensive that gets before you even start the building work. I am guessing that most courses in the UK were built before 1950 and other things have developed around them which means they cannot expand. My home course which is 6100 off the tips looked at trying to add 300 yards to its length a few years back. The numbers just didn’t stack up.

 

But at courses with multiple tees, I'm surprised you don't have the option to use a longer set.

 

Are most courses in urban areas? I don't have three slightest idea how the landscape shakes out over there. Someday I hope to treck over for a bucket list golf trip.

 

A wide range of golfing abilities was on display today...6 handicap up to 28. It took 4.5 hours off the daily tees, if we’d played off the back, I wouldn’t be typing this now.

 

Courses are in both urban and rural areas, but even in rural areas the demand for land for farming amongst other uses far outways the need for a golf course to expand. The UK has 702 people/Sq mile whereas the US has 91.5...it's pretty congested over here.

 

I would be more than happy to host a game if you did ever make it over.

[Bye]

Radiman,

 

I think you are forgetting that there was a fairly significant change 20 odd years ago, just the other way. You may not have experienced it but some of us did. I’m 38, first played the course I am a member at as a 14 year old with a balata and a persimmon driver. I’ve played there one way or another through all of the changes and have seen first hand how the equipment has affected how the course plays. If you played there from the tips, none of the hazards would be in play from the tee.

 

The thread is 50 odd pages so I guess some of have not read every post. I think I have been fairly clear, my preference would be a 10% roll back for the tour style ball. Taking things back to 1996 distances. I have also said that if the only way it can be done is for everyone, all styles of ball then it shouldn’t happen. 20% is madness, and I have been very clear about that.

 

I don’t think that I am right and you are wrong, it’s just my point of view.

 

I can't help but jump in a reiterate a point I made a while back that seems to get overlooked a lot.

 

10% roll back would not fix the perceived problem. I believe if you do the math, there are plenty of players that can still elevate their game to undo what that nerf would do. Right now, many of the fastest swinging pros hold back on many holes. There simply isn't a landing spot for their 100% swing. You reduce 10%, they will up there swings to 100% more often, and the guys that really have to hold back now, might become your next DJs, and Tiger Wood's.

 

I would guess a realistic top end, controllable swing speed is nearer to 135-138 mph with a 44-45 inch club. That is 200-205 mph ball speed (1.48 sf). Looking at trajectory optimizer, those speeds can top out at around ~340-350 yd carries. So nerf that by 10% you get 306-315 yd carries. With the roll out that can be had, does this solve the percieved problem? I don't think it does. You nerf the ball, the even faster guys rise to the top in the rankings. This has a likely limit, but right now, courses limit when and how often a pro can really go after one and avoid trouble. USGA would have to examine this closely and I would imagine if they really wanted to put things back to the "good ol days", you would need to be in that 20-25% region of nerf.

 

Point is, the nerf would have to be so severe to solve the perceived problem, that it would be ill advised and a no go just based on that. You would basically allow some of these LD competition capable guys unhitch the plow to overcome the nerf and become the new upper echelon of pro golfers.

 

Edit: Ok, now seriously I have come full circle with repeating myself completely. Hopefully that point sticks for a bit this time. I think its very valid, but that is just my thinking about it.

 

I would encourage you to go back a few pages, I am under no illusion that there isn’t more to come distance wise.

 

It may come to the point in a few years where bifurcation is the only option. But not yet.

 

I am not sure you quite get me. I am saying right now, courses naturally limit distance. You nerf the ball, now or ever, faster pro's will rise to the top and it would have to be a huge nerf to put things back to how they were pre technological advancements. I don't believe highest distance numbers are going to grow much in the coming years, its plateauing now. I do believe the average distance will continue to rise. For those that don't know my obvious stance, I am 100% against rollback for way more than just this reason.

 

I think I do, but I just don’t agree with you. But that’s fine.

 

Anyway I’m off as I’m on the tee in 7 hours.

 

Happy golfing anyone who is able to get out this weekend.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

Radiman,

 

I think you are forgetting that there was a fairly significant change 20 odd years ago, just the other way. You may not have experienced it but some of us did. I’m 38, first played the course I am a member at as a 14 year old with a balata and a persimmon driver. I’ve played there one way or another through all of the changes and have seen first hand how the equipment has affected how the course plays. If you played there from the tips, none of the hazards would be in play from the tee.

 

The thread is 50 odd pages so I guess some of have not read every post. I think I have been fairly clear, my preference would be a 10% roll back for the tour style ball. Taking things back to 1996 distances. I have also said that if the only way it can be done is for everyone, all styles of ball then it shouldn’t happen. 20% is madness, and I have been very clear about that.

 

I don’t think that I am right and you are wrong, it’s just my point of view.

 

I can't help but jump in a reiterate a point I made a while back that seems to get overlooked a lot.

 

10% roll back would not fix the perceived problem. I believe if you do the math, there are plenty of players that can still elevate their game to undo what that nerf would do. Right now, many of the fastest swinging pros hold back on many holes. There simply isn't a landing spot for their 100% swing. You reduce 10%, they will up there swings to 100% more often, and the guys that really have to hold back now, might become your next DJs, and Tiger Wood's.

 

I would guess a realistic top end, controllable swing speed is nearer to 135-138 mph with a 44-45 inch club. That is 200-205 mph ball speed (1.48 sf). Looking at trajectory optimizer, those speeds can top out at around ~340-350 yd carries. So nerf that by 10% you get 306-315 yd carries. With the roll out that can be had, does this solve the percieved problem? I don't think it does. You nerf the ball, the even faster guys rise to the top in the rankings. This has a likely limit, but right now, courses limit when and how often a pro can really go after one and avoid trouble. USGA would have to examine this closely and I would imagine if they really wanted to put things back to the "good ol days", you would need to be in that 20-25% region of nerf.

 

Point is, the nerf would have to be so severe to solve the perceived problem, that it would be ill advised and a no go just based on that. You would basically allow some of these LD competition capable guys unhitch the plow to overcome the nerf and become the new upper echelon of pro golfers.

 

Edit: Ok, now seriously I have come full circle with repeating myself completely. Hopefully that point sticks for a bit this time. I think its very valid, but that is just my thinking about it.

 

I would encourage you to go back a few pages, I am under no illusion that there isn’t more to come distance wise.

 

It may come to the point in a few years where bifurcation is the only option. But not yet.

 

I am not sure you quite get me. I am saying right now, courses naturally limit distance. You nerf the ball, now or ever, faster pro's will rise to the top and it would have to be a huge nerf to put things back to how they were pre technological advancements. I don't believe highest distance numbers are going to grow much in the coming years, its plateauing now. I do believe the average distance will continue to rise. For those that don't know my obvious stance, I am 100% against rollback for way more than just this reason.

 

I think I do, but I just don’t agree with you. But that’s fine.

 

Anyway I’m off as I’m on the tee in 7 hours.

 

Happy golfing anyone who is able to get out this weekend.

 

Play well, man! As you stand over your longest shot into a par four, just be happy it's not 25 yards longer.

[radiman]

Radiman,

 

I think you are forgetting that there was a fairly significant change 20 odd years ago, just the other way. You may not have experienced it but some of us did. I’m 38, first played the course I am a member at as a 14 year old with a balata and a persimmon driver. I’ve played there one way or another through all of the changes and have seen first hand how the equipment has affected how the course plays. If you played there from the tips, none of the hazards would be in play from the tee.

 

The thread is 50 odd pages so I guess some of have not read every post. I think I have been fairly clear, my preference would be a 10% roll back for the tour style ball. Taking things back to 1996 distances. I have also said that if the only way it can be done is for everyone, all styles of ball then it shouldn’t happen. 20% is madness, and I have been very clear about that.

 

I don’t think that I am right and you are wrong, it’s just my point of view.

 

I can't help but jump in a reiterate a point I made a while back that seems to get overlooked a lot.

 

10% roll back would not fix the perceived problem. I believe if you do the math, there are plenty of players that can still elevate their game to undo what that nerf would do. Right now, many of the fastest swinging pros hold back on many holes. There simply isn't a landing spot for their 100% swing. You reduce 10%, they will up there swings to 100% more often, and the guys that really have to hold back now, might become your next DJs, and Tiger Wood's.

 

I would guess a realistic top end, controllable swing speed is nearer to 135-138 mph with a 44-45 inch club. That is 200-205 mph ball speed (1.48 sf). Looking at trajectory optimizer, those speeds can top out at around ~340-350 yd carries. So nerf that by 10% you get 306-315 yd carries. With the roll out that can be had, does this solve the percieved problem? I don't think it does. You nerf the ball, the even faster guys rise to the top in the rankings. This has a likely limit, but right now, courses limit when and how often a pro can really go after one and avoid trouble. USGA would have to examine this closely and I would imagine if they really wanted to put things back to the "good ol days", you would need to be in that 20-25% region of nerf.

 

Point is, the nerf would have to be so severe to solve the perceived problem, that it would be ill advised and a no go just based on that. You would basically allow some of these LD competition capable guys unhitch the plow to overcome the nerf and become the new upper echelon of pro golfers.

 

Edit: Ok, now seriously I have come full circle with repeating myself completely. Hopefully that point sticks for a bit this time. I think its very valid, but that is just my thinking about it.

 

I would encourage you to go back a few pages, I am under no illusion that there isn’t more to come distance wise.

 

It may come to the point in a few years where bifurcation is the only option. But not yet.

 

I am not sure you quite get me. I am saying right now, courses naturally limit distance. You nerf the ball, now or ever, faster pro's will rise to the top and it would have to be a huge nerf to put things back to how they were pre technological advancements. I don't believe highest distance numbers are going to grow much in the coming years, its plateauing now. I do believe the average distance will continue to rise. For those that don't know my obvious stance, I am 100% against rollback for way more than just this reason.

 

I think I do, but I just don’t agree with you. But that’s fine.

 

Anyway I’m off as I’m on the tee in 7 hours.

 

Happy golfing anyone who is able to get out this weekend.

 

Lucky you! Still relegated to simulator golf here. Play well.

[thug the bunny]

Comes on man, no one said anything about adding more distance.

 

I am asking about that. Are the distance gains since 2000 good? If they are, then why aren't more distance gains, more good?

 

You are all suggesting that a distance rollback would be bad. So why not more distance? The opposite of a rollback.

 

I promise all of you; without any intervening action, athletes will get bigger and stronger; technique will adapt to equipment developments; and of course equipment will get better and better. Maybe more expensive (almost certainly more expensive). Technological distance -- distance in general -- will continue to grown in golf.

 

So I think that all of you really are favoring more distance. Why not be plain about it?

 

Are the distance gains since 2000 good?

 

No one here said the 15 yds gained since 2000 is either good nor bad. Strawman #1

 

You are all suggesting that a distance rollback would be bad.

 

Just distance rollback using only the ball. Strawman #2

 

So why not more distance? The opposite of a rollback.

 

No one here is suggesting more distance. Strawman #1.2

 

I promise all of you; without any intervening action, athletes will get bigger and stronger; technique will adapt to equipment developments; and of course equipment will get better and better. Maybe more expensive (almost certainly more expensive). Technological distance -- distance in general -- will continue to grown in golf.

 

Again, people here are simply pointing out that there are many other factors besides the ball that have added to distances gains. Strawman #3.

 

So I think that all of you really are favoring more distance. Why not be plain about it?

 

Again and again, no one is favoring or not favoring more distance. Strawman #4

 

You love to make arguments against points the were never even made. This is called strawman arguments. Do you know what they call someone who repeatedly makes strawman arguments over and over? I starts with a TR and ends with a OLL. Please feel free to stop posting since you keep making stuff up that people opposing you never said to suit your own point of view.

 

Thanks!

[Sean2]

^^^^Sounds like the media...

[OrangeGravy]

It is interesting to look at PGA Tour Carry Distance, as opposed to Driving Distance. Driving Distance #1 Tony Finau averages 20.8 yards roll (6.5% of total distance). #3 Kevin Tway averages 25.6 yards roll (8%). If you hate these athletes pounding it, softening up the runways might help.

 

Good point. In my area the courses have very soft fairways except maybe a couple months during mid summer if it hasn't rained in a while. Heck during most of the year it's not uncommon to find that my drive has backed up out of its ball mark

 

God I hate that. I lived in Seattle for 10 years and it was unavoidable. Used to drive me insane. Still happens early in the spring on the east side of the state, but it's a desert over here so it gets hot and dry soon enough.

[Sean2]

It is interesting to look at PGA Tour Carry Distance, as opposed to Driving Distance. Driving Distance #1 Tony Finau averages 20.8 yards roll (6.5% of total distance). #3 Kevin Tway averages 25.6 yards roll (8%). If you hate these athletes pounding it, softening up the runways might help.

 

Good point. In my area the courses have very soft fairways except maybe a couple months during mid summer if it hasn't rained in a while. Heck during most of the year it's not uncommon to find that my drive has backed up out of its ball mark

 

God I hate that. I lived in Seattle for 10 years and it was unavoidable. Used to drive me insane. Still happens early in the spring on the east side of the state, but it's a desert over here so it gets hot and dry soon enough.

 

Yeah, I live in Massachusetts. We get a lot of that. On the plus side, you know exactly how far you carry the ball. lol

[Ashley Schaeffer]

It is interesting to look at PGA Tour Carry Distance, as opposed to Driving Distance. Driving Distance #1 Tony Finau averages 20.8 yards roll (6.5% of total distance). #3 Kevin Tway averages 25.6 yards roll (8%). If you hate these athletes pounding it, softening up the runways might help.

 

Good point. In my area the courses have very soft fairways except maybe a couple months during mid summer if it hasn't rained in a while. Heck during most of the year it's not uncommon to find that my drive has backed up out of its ball mark

 

God I hate that. I lived in Seattle for 10 years and it was unavoidable. Used to drive me insane. Still happens early in the spring on the east side of the state, but it's a desert over here so it gets hot and dry soon enough.

 

After many years playing a lot of different places, I still say the ball flies the shortest in Seattle. And then it doesn't roll.

[OrangeGravy]

Is playing the Pro V1, Chromesoft or what ever really that important to people? Serious question.

 

I can’t remember people being that bothered about not playing a balata.

 

It kind of bothers me a little. I welcomed the more durable cover, but I definitely prefer the balata's other characteristics even today. It just fits my swing game better for some reason.

[thug the bunny]

It is interesting to look at PGA Tour Carry Distance, as opposed to Driving Distance. Driving Distance #1 Tony Finau averages 20.8 yards roll (6.5% of total distance). #3 Kevin Tway averages 25.6 yards roll (8%). If you hate these athletes pounding it, softening up the runways might help.

 

Good point. In my area the courses have very soft fairways except maybe a couple months during mid summer if it hasn't rained in a while. Heck during most of the year it's not uncommon to find that my drive has backed up out of its ball mark

 

God I hate that. I lived in Seattle for 10 years and it was unavoidable. Used to drive me insane. Still happens early in the spring on the east side of the state, but it's a desert over here so it gets hot and dry soon enough.

 

Yeah, I live in Massachusetts. We get a lot of that. On the plus side, you know exactly how far you carry the ball. lol

 

Ha, leave it to Sean to find something positive in just about anything. The world needs more of your attitude my friend.

[15th Club]

To thug the bunny:

 

I am now just asking you: are the distance gains we've seen since 2000 good for the game of golf? I'll tell you my view; I think that they have been bad. I think that the whole direction of distance, with elite players getting lots of benefit out of the Pro V era, and recreational golfers seeing far less gain, has been bad. Answer however you'd like. But this is not a strawman argument; this goes directly to the point at issue.

 

You say that a "distance rollback using just the ball" would be bad. Do you have something else in mind for any rollback? Why not "just the ball"? We aren't doing a fitness rollback; not any launch monitor rollback. I don't see any golf club rollback, but seriously if you've got a proposal, I am all ears. I've made the case that firm and fast golf courses are the best, so if you are going to go there we will just have to agree to disagree. I've tried strenuously to make the very pointed case that the golf ball is the one easiest thing, by far, to roll back. This again is not a strawman argument; it goes directly to the point at issue.

 

You sort of repeat yourself, claiming that "Again, people here are simply pointing out that there are many other factors besides the ball that have added to distances gains." To which I have already said, pretty much all other factors are impossible to re-regulate, or would be undesirable changes. Changing the golf courses are undesirable changes. Limiting "athleticism" is an absurdity. Rolling back golf clubs is, I am sorry to say, a non-starter. But again if you have an idea for a club rollback, by all means tell me about it.

 

I am promising you; assuring you; and I will bet you; if nothing is done about the golf ball, elite-level distances will go up, and up and up. And in so doing, we will see the USGA and the R&A stuck between that reality and their 2002 Statement of Principles, in which they said that any further increases would be undesirable.

 

None of these are strawman arguments.

[thug the bunny]

Is playing the Pro V1, Chromesoft or what ever really that important to people? Serious question.

 

I can’t remember people being that bothered about not playing a balata.

 

It kind of bothers me a little. I welcomed the more durable cover, but I definitely prefer the balata's other characteristics even today. It just fits my swing game better for some reason.

 

As I said earlier, the advent of the ProV only netted the tour avg drive 6 yds in 2001. I would not care about losing 5 or so yds. What most of us don't want is -20% or even -10% as is being proposed by Jack. I also used to love playing balatas and remember hitting 270 yd drives with my Burner Bubble, but that was when I was in my 30s..

[DavePelz4]

Thug, i still have a full set of bubble shaft woods,with the awesome headcovers in the basement. Ah the bubble shaft...marketing at it's finest.

[OrangeGravy]

It is interesting to look at PGA Tour Carry Distance, as opposed to Driving Distance. Driving Distance #1 Tony Finau averages 20.8 yards roll (6.5% of total distance). #3 Kevin Tway averages 25.6 yards roll (8%). If you hate these athletes pounding it, softening up the runways might help.

I read on wrx that every tee shot gets 50 yards. Rory led the tour last year and averaged 12.1 yards of roll. Hagy averaged 8.3.

 

We've discussed this before (and probably will again), but I don't care what statistics they trot out, we've all seen the shots bounding down the fairways. And we see it a lot. I think you're the only person I've seen on here who contests that.

 

I think even you would agree Shilgy that you've seen a guy hit a drive that rolls at least 30 yards on occasion. If he does that once a round, how many drives must they be hitting that are getting zero roll out at all. And that is something we rarely see.

 

Makes me think they're including irons hit off the tee into those averages.

 

I think they just choose the 2 holes per round, per tournament to measure and include all the other clubs other than driver that get used on those holes. Even if they did only count the tee shots using driver it would still be a pretty crappy way to measure average driving distance only using 2 holes. As it is, including all clubs used of the tee to calculate average driving distance, the stat is completely useless and unreliable.

[OrangeGravy]

I doesn't work that way in the UK. Generally, you have tees for daily play (yellow - men) and tees for competitions (usually white). Ladies play off red tees and that is it. The course today did have a set of Blue tees which are for Elite competitions only.

 

The average for the par 4s is 370 yards with 426 yards being the longest and 300 yards the shortest...so very much on the short side by today's standards.

 

I just checked and the last pro tournament was actually held in 1969 but it did hold the British Amateur in 2010 which was won by Tommy Fleetwood.

 

That seems like a silly rule that should change. Is it for pace of play management?

 

There is no space to build multiple teeing grounds into hardly any golf course in the UK. Prime development land can start at £1m/acre...just think how expensive that gets before you even start the building work. I am guessing that most courses in the UK were built before 1950 and other things have developed around them which means they cannot expand. My home course which is 6100 off the tips looked at trying to add 300 yards to its length a few years back. The numbers just didn't stack up.

 

But at courses with multiple tees, I'm surprised you don't have the option to use a longer set.

 

Are most courses in urban areas? I don't have three slightest idea how the landscape shakes out over there. Someday I hope to treck over for a bucket list golf trip.

 

I believe the he's referring to the tees being regulated. Men are required to play of the yellow tees and women the red for regular every day non-competition rounds. I've seen this watching Shiels and company play in their videos. They were playing a practice round at a course before a tournament, but weren't allowed to play the tournament tees. Other times they had to ask for permission to play the tournament tees in practice round.

 

This may not be much of an issue here in the US, but over there where most courses were built over 50 years ago on an island, distance is a big issue for regular golfers on those old short courses.

[OrangeGravy]

It is interesting to look at PGA Tour Carry Distance, as opposed to Driving Distance. Driving Distance #1 Tony Finau averages 20.8 yards roll (6.5% of total distance). #3 Kevin Tway averages 25.6 yards roll (8%). If you hate these athletes pounding it, softening up the runways might help.

 

Good point. In my area the courses have very soft fairways except maybe a couple months during mid summer if it hasn't rained in a while. Heck during most of the year it's not uncommon to find that my drive has backed up out of its ball mark

 

God I hate that. I lived in Seattle for 10 years and it was unavoidable. Used to drive me insane. Still happens early in the spring on the east side of the state, but it's a desert over here so it gets hot and dry soon enough.

 

After many years playing a lot of different places, I still say the ball flies the shortest in Seattle. And then it doesn't roll.

 

I haven't played everywhere, but you might be right. It took me an entire year to adjust my approach shots club selection and that was just moving from one side of the state to the other. Thankfully I've never been short, so it wasn't sole crushing

[OrangeGravy]

Is playing the Pro V1, Chromesoft or what ever really that important to people? Serious question.

 

I can’t remember people being that bothered about not playing a balata.

 

It kind of bothers me a little. I welcomed the more durable cover, but I definitely prefer the balata's other characteristics even today. It just fits my swing game better for some reason.

 

As I said earlier, the advent of the ProV only netted the tour avg drive 6 yds in 2001. I would not care about losing 5 or so yds. What most of us don't want is -20% or even -10% as is being proposed by Jack. I also used to love playing balatas and remember hitting 270 yd drives with my Burner Bubble, but that was when I was in my 30s..

 

I just bought a Burner Bubble/Steel shaft to play when I recover from surgery. It showed up today at my door. Looks like a 3w. I never fully adapted to the 460cc heads or graphite shafts for that matter. I think it's the light weight. I'm so much more consistent with steel in my woods. Now it's just a battle to have enough in the tank for the last 6 holes with all that weight.

[Shilgy]

Here's the answer for you, "buckeyefl."

 

Yes, indeed; Augausta National is well underway with a complex series of property buyouts, city approval permit applications and private negotiations with Augusta Country Club, all with the transparent goal of cobbling together more real estate to add more yardage to the ANGC tournament course.

 

Let's start on the northwest side of the property, where the club has purchased a vast section (dozens of individual residential properties) opposite Berckmans Road. They use much of the land for Masters parking and staging. Now, owning so much of it they have petitioned the city to re-route the road, to stretch the Fifth tee backward, through what was the old fence and the Berckmans Road-bed, and build a new tee:

 

https://thegolfnewsn...th-hole-108455/

 

Next, let's go down to Amen corner, where they are clearly planning to stretch the 13th tee significantly backward and up the slope at Rae's Creek, into the area bounced by the Ninth fairway of Augusta Country Club:

 

https://www.golfdige...conic-13th-hole

 

Now I wanted to be clear, that you were actually challenging me on this stuff, before I came back to rub this in, buckeyefl. This is all now common knowledge; old news in golf architecture circles. I am surprised that a smart-aleck like you didn't know it but now I've made it clear for you.

 

There could actually be some more course-lengthening plans for ANGC; I don't know. But what I do know is that they have already stretched and pulled the course almost to the limits of the property. They have little if any room to move the 1st and 10th tees, because of the clubhouse complex. 15 tee bumps into 11. And 15 green bumps into the pond at 16. 17 tee bumps into 5. Etc., etc.

 

Now, have you learned something? Like, that ANGC actually does have some amazingly expensive, complicated, active plans to lengthen the tournament course?

 

You do realize that some of the land purchases were done to create FREE parking, improve access roads, expand the range and practice facility and to build a media center with 350 media stations and an interview room for 150, right? All of the land isn't going to just lengthen the course. The media center alone cost $56,000,000 to build. Also, ANGC gave the city a $17,000,000 loan for the re-route of the road.

 

I realize all of that. You are entirely correct.

 

Of course, I never suggested anything else about what you have just pointed out. Still, it looks like they will move the #5 tee. One of the few remaining tees that they can move.

 

And the deal with ACC has nothing to do with parking, or a practice area, or a media center, or hospitality, or spectator movement. It's all about the fact that #13 -- one of the greatest holes in golf -- was being overwhelmed by the technological advances with golf balls.

It's one of the greatest holes in golf but it was never ever a par five. Par 4.5 at most and that has always been the beauty of the hole. Watching the last five or so Masters there is absolutely no reason to lengthen it.

Unless of course some chief at Augusta thinks it would be better to be a three shot hole. If they do that they ruin the hole design. If most players cannot hit it around the corner it's a useless hole.

[Sean2]

It is interesting to look at PGA Tour Carry Distance, as opposed to Driving Distance. Driving Distance #1 Tony Finau averages 20.8 yards roll (6.5% of total distance). #3 Kevin Tway averages 25.6 yards roll (8%). If you hate these athletes pounding it, softening up the runways might help.

 

Good point. In my area the courses have very soft fairways except maybe a couple months during mid summer if it hasn't rained in a while. Heck during most of the year it's not uncommon to find that my drive has backed up out of its ball mark

 

God I hate that. I lived in Seattle for 10 years and it was unavoidable. Used to drive me insane. Still happens early in the spring on the east side of the state, but it's a desert over here so it gets hot and dry soon enough.

 

Yeah, I live in Massachusetts. We get a lot of that. On the plus side, you know exactly how far you carry the ball. lol

 

Ha, leave it to Sean to find something positive in just about anything. The world needs more of your attitude my friend.

 

Thanks Thug, you as well. :-)

[Shilgy]

It is interesting to look at PGA Tour Carry Distance, as opposed to Driving Distance. Driving Distance #1 Tony Finau averages 20.8 yards roll (6.5% of total distance). #3 Kevin Tway averages 25.6 yards roll (8%). If you hate these athletes pounding it, softening up the runways might help.

I read on wrx that every tee shot gets 50 yards. Rory led the tour last year and averaged 12.1 yards of roll. Hagy averaged 8.3.

 

We've discussed this before (and probably will again), but I don't care what statistics they trot out, we've all seen the shots bounding down the fairways. And we see it a lot. I think you're the only person I've seen on here who contests that.

 

I think even you would agree Shilgy that you've seen a guy hit a drive that rolls at least 30 yards on occasion. If he does that once a round, how many drives must they be hitting that are getting zero roll out at all. And that is something we rarely see.

 

Makes me think they're including irons hit off the tee into those averages.

Yes, we really do see the balls bounding down the fairway, occasionally. And those are the ones remembered. And legend becomes that happens every time.

It's the same as "Hogan never missed a fairway or green" best ballstriker ever. It helps that we did not have shotlink back then to prove that wrong.

Who should we believe? Trackman or our lying eyes, and memories?

[radiman]

I doesn't work that way in the UK. Generally, you have tees for daily play (yellow - men) and tees for competitions (usually white). Ladies play off red tees and that is it. The course today did have a set of Blue tees which are for Elite competitions only.

 

The average for the par 4s is 370 yards with 426 yards being the longest and 300 yards the shortest...so very much on the short side by today's standards.

 

I just checked and the last pro tournament was actually held in 1969 but it did hold the British Amateur in 2010 which was won by Tommy Fleetwood.

 

That seems like a silly rule that should change. Is it for pace of play management?

 

There is no space to build multiple teeing grounds into hardly any golf course in the UK. Prime development land can start at £1m/acre...just think how expensive that gets before you even start the building work. I am guessing that most courses in the UK were built before 1950 and other things have developed around them which means they cannot expand. My home course which is 6100 off the tips looked at trying to add 300 yards to its length a few years back. The numbers just didn't stack up.

 

But at courses with multiple tees, I'm surprised you don't have the option to use a longer set.

 

Are most courses in urban areas? I don't have three slightest idea how the landscape shakes out over there. Someday I hope to treck over for a bucket list golf trip.

 

I believe the he's referring to the tees being regulated. Men are required to play of the yellow tees and women the red for regular every day non-competition rounds. I've seen this watching Shiels and company play in their videos. They were playing a practice round at a course before a tournament, but weren't allowed to play the tournament tees. Other times they had to ask for permission to play the tournament tees in practice round.

 

This may not be much of an issue here in the US, but over there where most courses were built over 50 years ago on an island, distance is a big issue for regular golfers on those old short courses.

 

I understand that they are regulated, I just don't understand why. If they feel the course not challenging enough, why not make a set of tees that already exists an option for the players. It seems silly to have them available but limit access for tournaments only.

[golfer07840]

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And, the reality is the groove rule only affected the amateur, who had enough trouble spinning the ball as it was. With the groove rule the USGA simply made it that much more difficult. The ruling affected the touring professional not one iota.

 

Brilliant.

 

This is absolutely, scientifically false. I hate seeing falsehoods in this debate.

 

The USGA tested non-urethane balls leading up to the 2010 groove rule. In simplest terms, what they found was that the combination of modern urethane balls and the old-configuration grooves produced a significant spin relation. With non-urethane balls (ionomers, surlyn, etc.) there was no difference. So for the majority of recreational golfers -- and recalling that the majority of recreational golfer don't even buy top-dollar urethane balls -- the groove rule made no difference. Add to that, the fact that the groove rule didn't force recreational players to change any of their clubs, and their pre-2010 wedges remained legal, and we see that this statement is a completely false defamation of the USGA.

 

I don't mind a good and spirited argument. I do mind falsehoods.

Your home address is in Far Hills NJ isn't it?

[rawdog]

It is interesting to look at PGA Tour Carry Distance, as opposed to Driving Distance. Driving Distance #1 Tony Finau averages 20.8 yards roll (6.5% of total distance). #3 Kevin Tway averages 25.6 yards roll (8%). If you hate these athletes pounding it, softening up the runways might help.

 

Good point. In my area the courses have very soft fairways except maybe a couple months during mid summer if it hasn't rained in a while. Heck during most of the year it's not uncommon to find that my drive has backed up out of its ball mark

 

God I hate that. I lived in Seattle for 10 years and it was unavoidable. Used to drive me insane. Still happens early in the spring on the east side of the state, but it's a desert over here so it gets hot and dry soon enough.

 

Yeah, I live in Massachusetts. We get a lot of that. On the plus side, you know exactly how far you carry the ball. lol

 

Sure, but I am not a fan of measuring negative roll out :P

 

Maybe I need to work on my angle of descent in soggy conditions!

[deadsolid...shank]

It is interesting to look at PGA Tour Carry Distance, as opposed to Driving Distance. Driving Distance #1 Tony Finau averages 20.8 yards roll (6.5% of total distance). #3 Kevin Tway averages 25.6 yards roll (8%). If you hate these athletes pounding it, softening up the runways might help.

I read on wrx that every tee shot gets 50 yards. Rory led the tour last year and averaged 12.1 yards of roll. Hagy averaged 8.3.

 

We've discussed this before (and probably will again), but I don't care what statistics they trot out, we've all seen the shots bounding down the fairways. And we see it a lot. I think you're the only person I've seen on here who contests that.

 

I think even you would agree Shilgy that you've seen a guy hit a drive that rolls at least 30 yards on occasion. If he does that once a round, how many drives must they be hitting that are getting zero roll out at all. And that is something we rarely see.

 

Makes me think they're including irons hit off the tee into those averages.

Yes, we really do see the balls bounding down the fairway, occasionally. And those are the ones remembered. And legend becomes that happens every time.

It's the same as "Hogan never missed a fairway or green" best ballstriker ever. It helps that we did not have shotlink back then to prove that wrong.

Who should we believe? Trackman or our lying eyes, and memories?

 

You didn't answer. Irons off the tee? Every drive hit?

 

It's not even close to the same as "Hogan never missed a fairway" or "best ballstriker ever" ( which are poor analogys anyway as they are completely different, one would objective and the other subjective). We see it on tv every week. So again, how does an average get down to eight or 12 yards when we routinely see balls running 20, 30, and even 40 yards. Lots of drives with zero or even negative rollout? Funny, that is something we rarely see.

 

I'll take what my own eyes tell me. And, based on the numerous responses here, many others see the same thing. But if the STATS say something it must be gospel right? Because stats are never wrong or misleading.

[Golfnutgalen]

the "carry distance" stat is misleading because it's not measuring the same drives as the "driving distance" stat. A perfect example is JB who averaged 304.4 yards of carry in 2009 out of 47 attempts while his driving distance was 304.6 out of 148 attempts. That was an outlier of course, but it proves how the stats can be misleading if you do not take all the information into account.

 

That considered, the average roll out on tour is about 20 yards on the measured holes, but we've also seen balls stop on a dime or roll out 100 yards on a down slope. We've already seen Tiger get -6 yards of roll with a driver and 36 yards of roll with a downhill 3-wood this week.

[OrangeGravy]

the "carry distance" stat is misleading because it's not measuring the same drives as the "driving distance" stat. A perfect example is JB who averaged 304.4 yards of carry in 2009 out of 47 attempts while his driving distance was 304.6 out of 148 attempts. That was an outlier of course, but it proves how the stats can be misleading if you do not take all the information into account.

 

That considered, the average roll out on tour is about 20 yards on the measured holes, but we've also seen balls stop on a dime or roll out 100 yards on a down slope. We've already seen Tiger get -6 yards of roll with a driver and 36 yards of roll with a downhill 3-wood this week.

 

It really is crazy how they measure these things. Unless they're going to measure this stuff properly it's all pointless. And if these are the stats they're using in the reports just released, it really is nothing but a dog and pony show. The true numbers could be significantly different either way.

 

It's almost as if know one wants to see the real numbers

[mahonie]

the "carry distance" stat is misleading because it's not measuring the same drives as the "driving distance" stat. A perfect example is JB who averaged 304.4 yards of carry in 2009 out of 47 attempts while his driving distance was 304.6 out of 148 attempts. That was an outlier of course, but it proves how the stats can be misleading if you do not take all the information into account.

 

That considered, the average roll out on tour is about 20 yards on the measured holes, but we've also seen balls stop on a dime or roll out 100 yards on a down slope. We've already seen Tiger get -6 yards of roll with a driver and 36 yards of roll with a downhill 3-wood this week.

 

It really is crazy how they measure these things. Unless they're going to measure this stuff properly it's all pointless. And if these are the stats they're using in the reports just released, it really is nothing but a dog and pony show. The true numbers could be significantly different either way.

 

The stat that gets me from the way they measure it is that for strokes gained from the tee, a drive that ends up in the first cut of rough is classed as being in the fairway!! It just skews all those reports that say that more strokes are gained because of distance rather than accuracy.

[Golfnutgalen]

Tiger from 2012, I would bet those drives with measured carry distance were more in the neighborhood of 320 yards vs 297.

[The Mad Bomber]

Man, it might be the liquor talking at almost 2 am, but I love WRX. 52 pages of this. What would I do without you?