Is Increasing Driving Distance Ruining the Pro Tours? (***CONTENTS UNDER MOD REVIEW***)

[MtlJeff]

It would be nice to see professional golfers using more then the high lofted wedges or irons to reach the green, and use a 4, 5, or 6 iron to reach the green.

 

Why?

 

what's a "6" iron anyway? in 2018 it's like 26 degrees. in 1988 it was 32 degrees. Assuming the announcers even club them right, a 7 iron might be 30 degrees in that dude's bag

 

We talking a metric 6 or a standard 6 Jeff ?

 

 

At least they finally admitted that everyone IS hitting it farther. Now it's a debate of if it's bad or not.

 

I'm a reasonable person, just show me the data!

 

There's 16000 golf courses in the US, would love to know how many of those host elite tournaments, whether those courses are profitable or not, etc

 

And from a pro perspective, is there any proof that "bomb and gouge" has driven away viewers?

 

I'd love to see real data/opinion on this.....rather than just hear about how Merion can't host a US open anymore. Who cares? They don't play baseball at the Polo Grounds anymore either

[bladehunter]

It would be nice to see professional golfers using more then the high lofted wedges or irons to reach the green, and use a 4, 5, or 6 iron to reach the green.

 

Why?

 

what's a "6" iron anyway? in 2018 it's like 26 degrees. in 1988 it was 32 degrees. Assuming the announcers even club them right, a 7 iron might be 30 degrees in that dude's bag

 

We talking a metric 6 or a standard 6 Jeff ?

 

 

At least they finally admitted that everyone IS hitting it farther. Now it's a debate of if it's bad or not.

 

I'm a reasonable person, just show me the data!

 

There's 16000 golf courses in the US, would love to know how many of those host elite tournaments, whether those courses are profitable or not, etc

 

And from a pro perspective, is there any proof that "bomb and gouge" has driven away viewers?

 

I'd love to see real data/opinion on this.....rather than just hear about how Merion can't host a US open anymore. Who cares? They don't play baseball at the Polo Grounds anymore either

 

I’m not in total disagreement with you. But the sticking point for me was that people flat denied that they Ball is being hit farther now. The denial that tech makes a difference. Seems like they are saying now that the 290 yard driving iron isn’t really intended to exist.

 

As for your point. I don’t know. But what I do know is that there are fans ( I am one ) who would pay to watch 1980- 2002 golf forever before watching what we have now. Not the Stars from then. The game.

[North Butte]

Who the heck is claiming that nobody hits it farther today than 30, 40, 50 years ago?

[hybrid25]

It would be nice to see professional golfers using more then the high lofted wedges or irons to reach the green, and use a 4, 5, or 6 iron to reach the green.

 

Why?

why? Why have a 4,5,& 6 iron in the bag? I don't even know why I replied to your response.

[TollBros]

The 40+ yards of roll they get on the perfectly manicured 8 stimp fairways doesn't help. Put them on the soft courses most of us play and driving distance will come down 30+ yards. My point is, it's the conditions that aren't applicable to 99% of all golfers they are reacting to. Pointless.

[puttfordoux]

To the OP's question, Is Increasing Driving Distance Ruining the Pro Tours, in my opinion, the answer is no. But, also in my opinion, catering to it, is.

 

What the USGA is doing playing both ends against the middle, wanting their cake and eating it too, having setups like Chambers Bay and Erin Hills and yet saying the goal is par, is hypocritical at best. You can't blame a Dustin Johnson or a Brooks Kopeka for taking advantage of the technology and fitness to hit the ball as far as they can. But as you might see this week at the Players, it won't guarantee them a win every time out. Yes, there have been and will continue to be courses that will be obsoleted by the changes. But to say every course on the pro tour will someday become 7000 yards plus, is being a bit presumptuous.

[bladehunter]

Who the heck is claiming that nobody hits it farther today than 30, 40, 50 years ago?

 

Ok. How about 20 ? 15 ?

[marmooskapaul]

I would much rather see another US Open at Chambers Bay...than any tournament at Old Course...I'm sick of that place...build some new courses over there!!!...lol.

[bulls9999]

But it's kind of hard to give up distance once you get it. Recently, at age 64, I grudgingly tried a 'Senior' flex shaft in my driver. Stiff was 62 grams, Reg was 58, and Senior was 54, or something like that (they should just list them by gram weights and forget the descriptive names). Woah, I'm hitting it 20 yards longer. Then I just got fitted for irons (1st time getting fitted), and the fitter changed me from my current ProModus3 105Tour Stiff to Recoil 760 F3 (68 gms), and I complained they were 'too light', but he said stick with them a bit, try them a while and get back to me.....I complained, told him I'll be selling them on Ebay while I still played with them.....but dam, I gained 2-3 clubs, hitting 8i/9i where I used to hit 6 irons....scores been dropping too. Hmmm......what do you think I should do, go back to shorty clubs or stick with this setup?

 

I like it when one or two guys stand out as bombers. Today I feel like there are two dozen guys, maybe more, that have that bomber rep. Then there are probably another two dozen that are bombers but we never hear about them because they don't contend.

 

I wouldn't say it is ruining golf because I love watching golf. But I think if reaching par 5s in two and driving short par 4s was more of a novelty rather than a routine happening, the game would be even better.

[15th Club]

But it's kind of hard to give up distance once you get it. Recently, at age 64, I grudgingly tried a 'Senior' flex shaft in my driver. Stiff was 62 grams, Reg was 58, and Senior was 54, or something like that (they should just list them by gram weights and forget the descriptive names). Woah, I'm hitting it 20 yards longer. Then I just got fitted for irons (1st time getting fitted), and the fitter changed me from my current ProModus3 105Tour Stiff to Recoil 760 F3 (68 gms), and I complained they were 'too light', but he said stick with them a bit, try them a while and get back to me.....I complained, told him I'll be selling them on Ebay while I still played with them.....but dam, I gained 2-3 clubs, hitting 8i/9i where I used to hit 6 irons....scores been dropping too. Hmmm......what do you think I should do, go back to shorty clubs or stick with this setup?

 

I like it when one or two guys stand out as bombers. Today I feel like there are two dozen guys, maybe more, that have that bomber rep. Then there are probably another two dozen that are bombers but we never hear about them because they don't contend.

 

I wouldn't say it is ruining golf because I love watching golf. But I think if reaching par 5s in two and driving short par 4s was more of a novelty rather than a routine happening, the game would be even better.

 

Yet another presumption, that multilayer urethane balls like the Pro V 1 have (a) given you significant distance and (b) that you would lose that distance in a ball rollback. I think both presumptions are mistaken.

[15th Club]

I would much rather see another US Open at Chambers Bay...than any tournament at Old Course...I'm sick of that place...build some new courses over there!!!...lol.

 

I don't see why that would be a choice; the USGA had good reasons to try Chambers Bay as a venue, among those reasons being that Chambers Bay was a modern approximation of The Old Course, which is the root inspiration for virtually every great golf course architect for 200 years. And of course the USGA and the R&A venerate The Old Course.

 

If disrespecting The Old Course is your credo, then I know for sure than my side will soon win the rollback debate, because that debate is going to be resolved by the USGA and the R&A; lovers of The Old Course.

[bulls9999]

Only if they fix those greens....that was disgusting to see US Open played on what looked like the worst of any muni greens I've ever seen.

 

I would much rather see another US Open at Chambers Bay...than any tournament at Old Course...I'm sick of that place...build some new courses over there!!!...lol.

[15th Club]

You can't blame a Dustin Johnson or a Brooks Kopeka for taking advantage of the technology and fitness to hit the ball as far as they can.

 

And nobody is "blaming" them for that. It is simply time to seriously deal with the technology that allows it. Nobody has any concern, about their athleticism.

 

 

 

Yes, there have been and will continue to be courses that will be obsoleted by the changes.

 

Well, when it comes to Merion, and lots of intercollegiate golf courses, and The Old Course and indeed the entire rota of Open courses; yeah, it is time to draw a line.

[marmooskapaul]

Only if they fix those greens....that was disgusting to see US Open played on what looked like the worst of any muni greens I've ever seen.

 

I would much rather see another US Open at Chambers Bay...than any tournament at Old Course...I'm sick of that place...build some new courses over there!!!...lol.

 

Agreed...hopefully they have fixed that??

[bladehunter]

But it's kind of hard to give up distance once you get it. Recently, at age 64, I grudgingly tried a 'Senior' flex shaft in my driver. Stiff was 62 grams, Reg was 58, and Senior was 54, or something like that (they should just list them by gram weights and forget the descriptive names). Woah, I'm hitting it 20 yards longer. Then I just got fitted for irons (1st time getting fitted), and the fitter changed me from my current ProModus3 105Tour Stiff to Recoil 760 F3 (68 gms), and I complained they were 'too light', but he said stick with them a bit, try them a while and get back to me.....I complained, told him I'll be selling them on Ebay while I still played with them.....but dam, I gained 2-3 clubs, hitting 8i/9i where I used to hit 6 irons....scores been dropping too. Hmmm......what do you think I should do, go back to shorty clubs or stick with this setup?

 

I like it when one or two guys stand out as bombers. Today I feel like there are two dozen guys, maybe more, that have that bomber rep. Then there are probably another two dozen that are bombers but we never hear about them because they don't contend.

 

I wouldn't say it is ruining golf because I love watching golf. But I think if reaching par 5s in two and driving short par 4s was more of a novelty rather than a routine happening, the game would be even better.

 

handicap dropped ?

[marmooskapaul]

I would much rather see another US Open at Chambers Bay...than any tournament at Old Course...I'm sick of that place...build some new courses over there!!!...lol.

 

I don't see why that would be a choice; the USGA had good reasons to try Chambers Bay as a venue, among those reasons being that Chambers Bay was a modern approximation of The Old Course, which is the root inspiration for virtually every great golf course architect for 200 years. And of course the USGA and the R&A venerate The Old Course.

 

If disrespecting The Old Course is your credo, then I know for sure than my side will soon win the rollback debate, because that debate is going to be resolved by the USGA and the R&A; lovers of The Old Course.

 

Yes...yes..I know....they need to alter the golf ball to keep that place relevant. Cause the golf world wouldn't...couldn't...go on without the Old Course.

[AceCatKY]

There are plenty of people who enjoy seeing the brand of golf played now. If you wanna see 260 yard drives and guys hitting 5 irons in to short par 4s then go hang out at the local muni or watch LPGA.

 

Golf seems to be the only sport concerned with limiting or rolling back technology and its just so some older golf courses can host Tour events? Who cares?

 

PGA Tour viewership ratings are doing well. If the PGA Tour wants to keep attracting new fans and growing the game it is not going to be by rolling back the ball to satisfy the misguided desires of people to see golf "the way it was in my day" or to ensure that 100+ year old courses are played on Tour. Those old courses are great, still host other events fine and can still be enjoyed and played by the average golfer but there are other problems to talk that are greater than this moronic, tired debate.

 

Maybe focus on incentives to increase youth participation, continue to encourage people getting out for 9 holes if they cant do 18, add more variety in scoring formats ie stableford, team events etc.

 

You don't see the NBA raising the rims to 12 feet because too many people are dunking and you don't see baseball going back to the old dead balls they used to use to "protect the game". PGA Tour shouldn't be doing things like this either. If people are obsessed with that type of golf they can easily go get some old Hogan blades and some balatas and knock themselves out at the local course playing the game "the proper way".

[North Butte]

If people are obsessed with that type of golf they can easily go get some old Hogan blades and some balatas and knock themselves out at the local course playing the game "the proper way".

 

And if enough people wanted to see it, there would be tournaments with old clubs and balls showing on the Golf Channel. Content for days when there's no real golf to show.

 

Unfortunately, the number of people interested in that sort of thing is probably 1/10th the number who will watch some bunch of yahoos playing Top Golf.

[bulls9999]

Well, I just shot the lowest round of the year (84 from men's tees, which included a dumb quad) with the new setup vs about 25-30 rounds in the 86-94 range with the prior setup. Should take me down a smidgeon on the newest revision....anxious to get out and repeat.

 

But it's kind of hard to give up distance once you get it. Recently, at age 64, I grudgingly tried a 'Senior' flex shaft in my driver. Stiff was 62 grams, Reg was 58, and Senior was 54, or something like that (they should just list them by gram weights and forget the descriptive names). Woah, I'm hitting it 20 yards longer. Then I just got fitted for irons (1st time getting fitted), and the fitter changed me from my current ProModus3 105Tour Stiff to Recoil 760 F3 (68 gms), and I complained they were 'too light', but he said stick with them a bit, try them a while and get back to me.....I complained, told him I'll be selling them on Ebay while I still played with them.....but dam, I gained 2-3 clubs, hitting 8i/9i where I used to hit 6 irons....scores been dropping too. Hmmm......what do you think I should do, go back to shorty clubs or stick with this setup?

 

I like it when one or two guys stand out as bombers. Today I feel like there are two dozen guys, maybe more, that have that bomber rep. Then there are probably another two dozen that are bombers but we never hear about them because they don't contend.

 

I wouldn't say it is ruining golf because I love watching golf. But I think if reaching par 5s in two and driving short par 4s was more of a novelty rather than a routine happening, the game would be even better.

 

handicap dropped ?

[15th Club]

I would much rather see another US Open at Chambers Bay...than any tournament at Old Course...I'm sick of that place...build some new courses over there!!!...lol.

 

I don't see why that would be a choice; the USGA had good reasons to try Chambers Bay as a venue, among those reasons being that Chambers Bay was a modern approximation of The Old Course, which is the root inspiration for virtually every great golf course architect for 200 years. And of course the USGA and the R&A venerate The Old Course.

 

If disrespecting The Old Course is your credo, then I know for sure than my side will soon win the rollback debate, because that debate is going to be resolved by the USGA and the R&A; lovers of The Old Course.

 

Yes...yes..I know....they need to alter the golf ball to keep that place relevant. Cause the golf world wouldn't...couldn't...go on without the Old Course.

 

Again, more rude sarcasm from the anti-rollback crowd.

 

I think this is sort of funny, because in an extended debate that I had online with E. Michael Johnson, he finally reached the point where he said essentially that if The Old Course finally became irrelevant for tournament golf, it would be fine with him because it just might open up some more tee times for him to be able to play it.

 

Now, I get his point without taking him literally. And taking his point fairly and as intended, I still find it amazingly illegitimate and a stunning admission from the opponents of a ball rollback. The Old Course, in my view, ought to be the ultimate gold standard. And if tournament players can't really use it anymore because equipment technology has overrun the strategic elements of the course, then something has gone very badly wrong with the regulation of that equipment technology.

[15th Club]

If people are obsessed with that type of golf they can easily go get some old Hogan blades and some balatas and knock themselves out at the local course playing the game "the proper way".

 

And if enough people wanted to see it, there would be tournaments with old clubs and balls showing on the Golf Channel. Content for days when there's no real golf to show.

 

Unfortunately, the number of people interested in that sort of thing is probably 1/10th the number who will watch some bunch of yahoos playing Top Golf.

 

Of course since nobody in the rollback movement is proposing such a thing, this whole notion is just trashtalk.

[15th Club]

Golf seems to be the only sport concerned with limiting or rolling back technology...

 

Well, no. That is simply untrue.

 

First, golf is one of the few athletic endeavors where equipment technology is allowed to have such a major impact. Nobody is building better and better footballs that can be kicked farther. Nobody is building lighter basketballs that can be shot from greater distances. And to confront your own post directly, nobody is creating new baseball designs every year that go farther and farther, or bats out of new high-tech composites. The tiniest alteration in baseball "ball" performance has caused massive alarm and studies for several years now.

 

Now, there are other sporting endeavors that are technology-based. Motor sports racing is one. And they have volumes of technical rules. And they are constantly "rolling back" specifications on performance. Because, I think we can all agree, the important thing is not to build the fastest-possible Indy race car. No; the important thing is to build a small fleet of Indy race cars, that don't go too fast for the race track, and that are controllable by the drivers, so that we emphasize good racing, and driving skill, and affordability for team owners.

[KMeloney]

Well, when it comes to Merion, and lots of intercollegiate golf courses, and The Old Course and indeed the entire rota of Open courses; yeah, it is time to draw a line.

 

Time to draw the line... at Merion? Why? Did it play too short in '13? I don't think so.

[gvogel]

This is a new and interesting topic.

 

I think that you are right. Maybe we should talk about playing with hickories.

[gvogel]

To answer the question: do I think that driving distance is ruining the pro tours? No, i do not, but I think that it is changing the nature of the game, and how the best players can play on older course.

 

Some think that the modern golfer is more athletic, bigger etc. and that has increased driving distance. But I think that is a fallacy, and I would cite the fact that guys like Freddy Couples who went from wood to titanium picked up significant distance without "getting in shape." The equipment changes have been dramatic.

 

Some of us prefer the game as it was played up until the advent of 460cc drivers and the COR of .83. Others prefer the game as it is now. The arguments will go on and on.

 

As someone who prefers the game as it was, I will not stop watching pro golf on TV simply because I think that smaller drivers were more difficult to hit and required more skill. However, I do enjoy the fact that a lot of folks with a stake in the game are talking about the fact that equipment has made the game easier from tee to green, and has probably been a factor in letting mid-level pros be able to compete with the most skilled, particularly when the lesser skilled mid-level pro has a great putting week.

 

I don't know if I would prefer a general ball roll back, or a return to smaller driver heads (less than 230 cc, or maybe even 200 cc) and a roll back of COR. But i would certainly welcome studies on both of those fronts - studies of actual elite golfers playing with a reduced distance ball, and also playing with a smaller driver head and reduced COR. Then we could have an informed discussion and debate.

[WidespreadPanic]

I used to not care. Now I think I do. I heard a stat that was something along the lines of "Last year DJ never hit more than an 8 iron into a par 4". That's not the exact quote, but it's close, and it's insane.

[15th Club]

You don't see the NBA raising the rims to 12 feet because too many people are dunking...

 

I like picking apart things like this, that seem at first blush to be reasonable. It's not reasonable.

 

The way that we would really make such a comparison, between golf and basketball, would be if there had been some new shoe technology, that assisted NBA players to jump two feet higher. And basketball fans all said, "Hey, that is cool! Why not go with it? Jumping high is great for tv; the fans love it. It's exciting." And then, when it gets to be ridiculous with half the baskets being made as dunks, and the game slows down with multiple fouls (as the only way to stop dunks), then somebody says, "Why not just raise the baskets by two feet?"

 

Now THAT is much closer to what we are discussing with a golf ball rollback.

[North Butte]

I used to not care. Now I think I do. I heard a stat that was something along the lines of "Last year DJ never hit more than an 8 iron into a par 4". That's not the exact quote, but it's close, and it's insane.

 

If you didn't know that until you heard the "stat" then it must not have much affected your viewing of golf on TV, much less your enjoyment of your own game. If something has to be tracked and reported after the fact for you to even notice it, how big a problem can it be?

[buckeyefl]

But it's kind of hard to give up distance once you get it. Recently, at age 64, I grudgingly tried a 'Senior' flex shaft in my driver. Stiff was 62 grams, Reg was 58, and Senior was 54, or something like that (they should just list them by gram weights and forget the descriptive names). Woah, I'm hitting it 20 yards longer. Then I just got fitted for irons (1st time getting fitted), and the fitter changed me from my current ProModus3 105Tour Stiff to Recoil 760 F3 (68 gms), and I complained they were 'too light', but he said stick with them a bit, try them a while and get back to me.....I complained, told him I'll be selling them on Ebay while I still played with them.....but dam, I gained 2-3 clubs, hitting 8i/9i where I used to hit 6 irons....scores been dropping too. Hmmm......what do you think I should do, go back to shorty clubs or stick with this setup?

 

I like it when one or two guys stand out as bombers. Today I feel like there are two dozen guys, maybe more, that have that bomber rep. Then there are probably another two dozen that are bombers but we never hear about them because they don't contend.

 

I wouldn't say it is ruining golf because I love watching golf. But I think if reaching par 5s in two and driving short par 4s was more of a novelty rather than a routine happening, the game would be even better.

 

Yet another presumption, that multilayer urethane balls like the Pro V 1 have (a) given you significant distance and (b) that you would lose that distance in a ball rollback. I think both presumptions are mistaken.

 

A) is by no means a presumption for many players.

 

B) is just you being you.

[buckeyefl]

I would much rather see another US Open at Chambers Bay...than any tournament at Old Course...I'm sick of that place...build some new courses over there!!!...lol.

 

I don't see why that would be a choice; the USGA had good reasons to try Chambers Bay as a venue, among those reasons being that Chambers Bay was a modern approximation of The Old Course, which is the root inspiration for virtually every great golf course architect for 200 years. And of course the USGA and the R&A venerate The Old Course.

 

If disrespecting The Old Course is your credo, then I know for sure than my side will soon win the rollback debate, because that debate is going to be resolved by the USGA and the R&A; lovers of The Old Course.

 

That is not even in the top 10 of reasons. Where do you come up with this stuff. By your own admissions you like to be the contrarian/ underdog or whatever you want to call it but it seems to have run its course.