Concessions in team match play

[King_Slender]

I know I'm in the right here, but wanting to confirm the actual rules that apply.

 

Had a Ryder Cup in our golf league last night and were playing 2-man Best Ball. We were 1 up going into the second to last hole and our opponents had 2 balls in play. One was on the back of the green with about an 80 foot birdie putt and the other was about 20 feet away, right on the same line, putting for double bogey. Naturally, I conceded the shorter putt so they could not have the close player putt first and assist with the speed/line for the player farther away.

 

Our opponent contended that it didn't matter if I conceded and he could putt it any way. I told him no and picked up his ball. The concession is a no brainer, rule 2-4 - "A concession may not be declined or withdrawn."

 

Which brings me to the discussion of what would have happened if I wasn't close enough to pick up the ball and he had said he was putting it any way. That would be considered practice under Rule 7-2 and result in a loss of hole, correct?

 

His partner 3-putted and we closed out the match.

[davep043]

2-4/6

 

 

Putting Out After Concession of Stroke

 

 

Rule 2-4 does not cover the question of whether a player may putt out after his next stroke has been conceded. A player incurs no penalty for holing out in such circumstances. However, if the act would be of assistance to a partner in a four-ball or best-ball match, the partner is, in equity (Rule 1-4), disqualified for the hole.

 

Player A gets the double that you conceded. His partner is DQed for the hole.

[Skifly150]

I know I'm in the right here, but wanting to confirm the actual rules that apply.

 

Had a Ryder Cup in our golf league last night and were playing 2-man Best Ball. We were 1 up going into the second to last hole and our opponents had 2 balls in play. One was on the back of the green with about an 80 foot birdie putt and the other was about 20 feet away, right on the same line, putting for double bogey. Naturally, I conceded the shorter putt so they could not have the close player putt first and assist with the speed/line for the player farther away.

 

Our opponent contended that it didn't matter if I conceded and he could putt it any way. I told him no and picked up his ball. The concession is a no brainer, rule 2-4 - "A concession may not be declined or withdrawn."

 

Which brings me to the discussion of what would have happened if I wasn't close enough to pick up the ball and he had said he was putting it any way. That would be considered practice under Rule 7-2 and result in a loss of hole, correct?

 

His partner 3-putted and we closed out the match.

 

Their team would have to use the conceded players score as the partner (long putt) would be disqualified from the hole.

 

In match play practice on the last green played is allowed to 7-2 wouldn't apply.

 

Here is the exact decision on this:

 

2-4/6

 

Putting Out After Concession of Stroke

 

 

Rule 2-4 does not cover the question of whether a player may putt out after his next stroke has been conceded. A player incurs no penalty for holing out in such circumstances. However, if the act would be of assistance to a partner in a four-ball or best-ball match, the partner is, in equity (Rule 1-4), disqualified for the hole.

[Skifly150]

2-4/6

 

 

Putting Out After Concession of Stroke

 

 

Rule 2-4 does not cover the question of whether a player may putt out after his next stroke has been conceded. A player incurs no penalty for holing out in such circumstances. However, if the act would be of assistance to a partner in a four-ball or best-ball match, the partner is, in equity (Rule 1-4), disqualified for the hole.

 

Player A gets the double that you conceded. His partner is DQed for the hole.

 

You're too quick......

[Shipwreck]

2-4/6

 

 

Putting Out After Concession of Stroke

 

 

Rule 2-4 does not cover the question of whether a player may putt out after his next stroke has been conceded. A player incurs no penalty for holing out in such circumstances. However, if the act would be of assistance to a partner in a four-ball or best-ball match, the partner is, in equity (Rule 1-4), disqualified for the hole.

 

Player A gets the double that you conceded. His partner is DQed for the hole.

 

You're too quick......

 

 

Rules of Golf on speed dial

[Augster]

2-4/6

 

 

Putting Out After Concession of Stroke

 

 

Rule 2-4 does not cover the question of whether a player may putt out after his next stroke has been conceded. A player incurs no penalty for holing out in such circumstances. However, if the act would be of assistance to a partner in a four-ball or best-ball match, the partner is, in equity (Rule 1-4), disqualified for the hole.

 

Player A gets the double that you conceded. His partner is DQed for the hole.

 

This is exactly correct.

 

The player you conceded the putt to can putt out after the hole, for score say, especially if he hasn’t hit his ESC yet. But if he putts before his partner, his conceded score is the score taken.

[2bGood]

This come up allot in matches. I even had a pro argue with me about it.

 

Knowing this rule has come in handy for me many times. Hopefully people read this thread and learn it for themselves.

[Colin L]

2-4/6

 

 

Putting Out After Concession of Stroke

 

 

Rule 2-4 does not cover the question of whether a player may putt out after his next stroke has been conceded. A player incurs no penalty for holing out in such circumstances. However, if the act would be of assistance to a partner in a four-ball or best-ball match, the partner is, in equity (Rule 1-4), disqualified for the hole.

 

Player A gets the double that you conceded. His partner is DQed for the hole.

 

This is exactly correct.

 

The player you conceded the putt to can putt out after the hole, for score say, especially if he hasn't hit his ESC yet. But if he putts before his partner, his conceded score is the score taken.

 

Putting before his partner only matters if it would help his partner in any way with his stroke. Is this a handicapping rule and if so why it would make any difference whether he putted out for his score before or after his partner? I'm a bit puzzled.

[Stuart_G]

The player you conceded the putt to can putt out after the hole, for score say, especially if he hasn't hit his ESC yet. But if he putts before his partner, his conceded score is the score taken.

 

Putting before his partner only matters if it would help his partner in any way with his stroke. Is this a handicapping rule and if so why it would make any difference whether he putted out for his score before or after his partner? I'm a bit puzzled.

 

Score for handicap purposes would be based on the results of putting out, if the player chooses to putt out - and when that happens is irrelevant based on my understanding. At least I've not seen anything to indicate that before or after would have any effect on his posted score. It only potentially effects the result of his partner's score used in the match, not his. So I'm curious as well and maybe Augster can clarify his rationalization for that comment?

[Colin L]

Relieved to know an American is likewise puzzled. :)

 

By the way, Stuart, I have pleasant memories of New Hampshire through my other passion, having worked as a ski instructor at Loon Mountain for a few weeks some years ago.

[davep043]

2-4/6

 

 

Putting Out After Concession of Stroke

 

 

Rule 2-4 does not cover the question of whether a player may putt out after his next stroke has been conceded. A player incurs no penalty for holing out in such circumstances. However, if the act would be of assistance to a partner in a four-ball or best-ball match, the partner is, in equity (Rule 1-4), disqualified for the hole.

 

Player A gets the double that you conceded. His partner is DQed for the hole.

 

This is exactly correct.

 

The player you conceded the putt to can putt out after the hole, for score say, especially if he hasn't hit his ESC yet. But if he putts before his partner, his conceded score is the score taken.

 

Putting before his partner only matters if it would help his partner in any way with his stroke. Is this a handicapping rule and if so why it would make any difference whether he putted out for his score before or after his partner? I'm a bit puzzled.

The OP asked about a specific situation where the conceded putt CAN help his partner know the line to play, so it matters in that context. The handicap score posting is a separate matter, and is handled in the US under Rule 4 of the handicap manual. In this case, the 20-foot putt that was conceded should be scored (for handicap posting only) as 2 putts, that's the most likely score from that far away. If the player wants to putt it out when play has been completed on the hole, and he makes it, count it as one putt. In the UK, as far as I understand, match play scores aren't posted, so there's no question of what score to record.

[Stuart_G]

By the way, Stuart, I have pleasant memories of New Hampshire through my other passion, having worked as a ski instructor at Loon Mountain for a few weeks some years ago.

 

Glad to hear it. I'm transplanted myself - but also enjoy the state (other than the very short golf season :-). Grew up alpine skiing but (for various reasons) gave it up a long time ago.

 

BTW, there is a nice course not far from Loon - "Owl's Nest" just a bit south in Thornton.

[Augster]

Dave has it correct and I run into it in a lot of fourball matches I play.

 

As in the OP, say, the partner further up the line on a par 3’s ESC is a 6. He has a putt for 4, no strokes, and his partner is further away putting for 2. You concede the putt for 4 as your team is making no worse than 3. Player says he wants to putt out “for score”. His MLS for posting purposes for the hole is a 5. He wants to putt, in some cases, to help his partner AND to putt until he hits his ESC. If he just picks up, he can post 5. If he putts out, he may post 6.

 

In the US, a lot of players have trouble “not finishing the hole”. Putting until you’re in the cup. It’s completely foreign to pick up even conceded putts. They HAVE to know their score. In the OP’s situation, when this comes up, you need to inform them that they may putt out, but only after their partner has putted and/or the hole is over. If they putt a conceded putt on the line that will help their partner, it is their score for the hole.

 

I would like to see the WHS get rid of posting fourball scores. It’s just too wacky. I’d also like to see some teeth put into the wording under conceded strokes. Put a small “the player MUST pick up and his MLS score is his score for cap purposes”. None of this letting them putt it out BS. They CHOSE to play that format.

 

[Sawgrass]

Dave has it correct and I run into it in a lot of fourball matches I play.

 

As in the OP, say, the partner further up the line on a par 3's ESC is a 6. He has a putt for 4, no strokes, and his partner is further away putting for 2. You concede the putt for 4 as your team is making no worse than 3. Player says he wants to putt out "for score". His MLS for posting purposes for the hole is a 5. He wants to putt, in some cases, to help his partner AND to putt until he hits his ESC. If he just picks up, he can post 5. If he putts out, he may post 6.

 

In the US, a lot of players have trouble "not finishing the hole". Putting until you're in the cup. It's completely foreign to pick up even conceded putts. They HAVE to know their score. In the OP's situation, when this comes up, you need to inform them that they may putt out, but only after their partner has putted and/or the hole is over. If they putt a conceded putt on the line that will help their partner, it is their score for the hole.

 

I would like to see the WHS get rid of posting fourball scores. It's just too wacky. I'd also like to see some teeth put into the wording under conceded strokes. Put a small "the player MUST pick up and his MLS score is his score for cap purposes". None of this letting them putt it out BS. They CHOSE to play that format.

I'd be completely freaked out about what might or might not happen with the WHS if I wasn't already freaked out about the 2019 Rules of Golf.

[Augster]

I agree. I’m glad they are staggering them. It’ll give us a few months to get used to the new rules before we can start looking forward and figuring out WHS.

[Colin L]

Dave has it correct and I run into it in a lot of fourball matches I play.

 

As in the OP, say, the partner further up the line on a par 3's ESC is a 6. He has a putt for 4, no strokes, and his partner is further away putting for 2. You concede the putt for 4 as your team is making no worse than 3. Player says he wants to putt out "for score". His MLS for posting purposes for the hole is a 5. He wants to putt, in some cases, to help his partner AND to putt until he hits his ESC. If he just picks up, he can post 5. If he putts out, he may post 6.

 

In the US, a lot of players have trouble "not finishing the hole". Putting until you're in the cup. It's completely foreign to pick up even conceded putts. They HAVE to know their score. In the OP's situation, when this comes up, you need to inform them that they may putt out, but only after their partner has putted and/or the hole is over. If they putt a conceded putt on the line that will help their partner, it is their score for the hole.

 

I would like to see the WHS get rid of posting fourball scores. It's just too wacky. I'd also like to see some teeth put into the wording under conceded strokes. Put a small "the player MUST pick up and his MLS score is his score for cap purposes". None of this letting them putt it out BS. They CHOSE to play that format.

 

This seems to me a highly confusing conflation of a rules and a handicapping situation. If the player nearer the hole putts out after a concession and it does not assist his partner, he has not breached a rule of golf. I know that fine, as you would appreciate. In handicapping terms, if he does so and takes two putts to get down he has to record his score as with the conceded stroke i.e one stroke less than what he took to hole out - say, a 4. If, however, he waits until the hole is completed and then putts out and takes two putts to get down, his recorded scores will include those extra strokes - i.e a 5. I've probably got it wrong but that's what Augster seemed to be saying.

 

Help!

[HitEmTrue]

Colin, he’s talking about scenario where it could benefit the partner if he goes ahead and putts first. The score for the team (his conceded score) and score to record for handicap could be different.

 

[Augster]

In the OP, and the situation I described, the conceded partner WAS on the line of his partner.

 

When an opponent isn’t on his partner’s line, and we concede a putt because he’s out of the hole, it’s funny, but they rarely ever want to putt out “for their score”.

 

 

[lchang]

On 7/27/2018 at 4:59 AM, davep043 said:

2-4/6

 

 

Putting Out After Concession of Stroke

 

 

Rule 2-4 does not cover the question of whether a player may putt out after his next stroke has been conceded. A player incurs no penalty for holing out in such circumstances. However, if the act would be of assistance to a partner in a four-ball or best-ball match, the partner is, in equity (Rule 1-4), disqualified for the hole.

 

Player A gets the double that you conceded. His partner is DQed for the hole.

This is from the old Rules’ Decisions, right?  Is this covered in the new rules’ Interpretations somewhere?

[Newby]

14 minutes ago, lchang said:

This is from the old Rules’ Decisions, right?  Is this covered in the new rules’ Interpretations somewhere?

Yes, Rule 23.6

 

http://www.walkercup.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/2019/rules/Mapping Summary Chart - FINAL - revised 8.16.2019.pdf

Edited September 13, 2020 by Newby

[antip]

Expanding the comment above, the Exception to Rule 23.6 covers this situation precisely. Also note the linked mapping summary chart above is out of date (multiple errors have since been corrected), the current edition is dated April 2020.  

[Augster]

“23.6 Side’s order of play. 
 

Partners may play in the order the side considers best.

This means that when it is a player’s turn to play under Rule 6.4a (match play) or 6.4b (stroke play), either the player or his or her partner may play next.

Exception – Continuing Play of Hole After Stroke Conceded in Match Play:
    •    A player must not continue play of a hole after the player’s next stroke has been conceded if this would help his or her partner.
    •    If the player does so, his or her score for the hole stands without penalty, but the partner’s score for the hole cannot count for the side.”

 

Rereading this thread I still have no idea why there was confusion. The OP stated:

 

”One was on the back of the green with about an 80 foot birdie putt and the other was about 20 feet away, right on the same line, putting for double bogey.”

 

I would guess having a putt on the same line as your partner, and the partner putts first, it would “help” in some way. A really strange exchange. 

 

[Newby]

13 hours ago, antip said:

Also note the linked mapping summary chart above is out of date (multiple errors have since been corrected), the current edition is dated April 2020.  

I had forgotten to to update my link. But now I can only find this:

  https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/2020/rules/MappingSummaryChart.pdf annotated Updated – 1/14/2020

 

Have you got a link to the latest version?

[sui generis]

7 minutes ago, Newby said:

I had forgotten to to update my link. But now I can only find this:

  https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/2020/rules/MappingSummaryChart.pdf annotated Updated – 1/14/2020

 

Have you got a link to the latest version?

 

I have April 2020, here:

https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/2020/rules/Mapping Summary Chart-revised-4-7-2020.pdf

[Newby]

On 9/14/2020 at 6:54 PM, sui generis said:

 

I have April 2020, here:

https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/2020/rules/Mapping Summary Chart-revised-4-7-2020.pdf

Many thanks.