Key Indicator For Increased Clubhead Speed -Dr Sasho MacKenzie

[glk]

It's this

 

[ksgolfcoach]

It's this

 

 

Exactly

[PorscheFan]

It's this

 

Very good image.

 

To steer back to the research that Sasho performed, in this video JT is switching his pressure incredibly quickly and extremely early in the downswing. In fact he's at 82% in ADVANCE of left arm parallel. Earlier than they reference in the analysis. That's serious athletic ability. The thrust that leads to the lack of lead foot pressure at impact is happening very early. Makes me wish Tyler Parsons lived in my neighborhood...

 

 

Hilariously, as I type this Brandel Chamblee is doing an analysis of Gary Woodland's swing and mixing the terms weight and pressure. Apparently this is an epidemic!

[tyorke1]

what does this mean iteach, ideally from the start of the downswing the weight should stay on the right foot a little then transfer fast to left then up halfway down, is this correct, Terry lives here I have know him for ever but have never talked to him about this nor have I been on his trainer. Just don't see him much .Crazy

[PorscheFan]

I can't stop... I geek out on this stuff. Here's another view of just how quickly and aggressively JT stomps on it in the downswing.

 

While 93% at left arm parallel is an absolute feat, I find 77% through to 90% in the really early stages of the downswing prior to left arm parallel to indicate absolutely outrageous levels of athleticism.

 

For the 'other' debate, note how he gets close to blackout (17%) on the lead foot PRESSURE RELATIVE to the trail foot around impact. I personally don't find that effect nearly as interesting as the cause (I.e. the thrust) that produces it.

 

Apologies for ripping off Tyler Parson's peerless analysis with these 4th grade screen shots. This guy should have way more YouTube views than he does. He's the real deal.

[iteachgolf]

what does this mean iteach, ideally from the start of the downswing the weight should stay on the right foot a little then transfer fast to left then up halfway down, is this correct, Terry lives here I have know him for ever but have never talked to him about this nor have I been on his trainer. Just don't see him much .Crazy

 

Weight and pressure are two different things. COP will move a larger amount forward and faster than the COM will. That statementwould seem to be about COM movement not COP. That description would be of the squat and then extend pattern

[GolfTurkey]

what does this mean iteach, ideally from the start of the downswing the weight should stay on the right foot a little then transfer fast to left then up halfway down, is this correct, Terry lives here I have know him for ever but have never talked to him about this nor have I been on his trainer. Just don't see him much .Crazy

 

Weight and pressure are two different things. COP will move a larger amount forward and faster than the COM will. That statementwould seem to be about COM movement not COP. That description would be of the squat and then extend pattern

 

Does the squat then extend pattern require a strong lead leg or is the key to extend before the momentum (whatever the correct term is) of the swing makes it too hard to extend.

 

I think I can do the squat part, but I'm struggling with the extension. Not sure if it's the timing of the extension, a leg strength issue or both.

[iteachgolf]

what does this mean iteach, ideally from the start of the downswing the weight should stay on the right foot a little then transfer fast to left then up halfway down, is this correct, Terry lives here I have know him for ever but have never talked to him about this nor have I been on his trainer. Just don't see him much .Crazy

 

Weight and pressure are two different things. COP will move a larger amount forward and faster than the COM will. That statementwould seem to be about COM movement not COP. That description would be of the squat and then extend pattern

 

Does the squat then extend pattern require a strong lead leg or is the key to extend before the momentum (whatever the correct term is) of the swing makes it too hard to extend.

 

I think I can do the squat part, but I'm struggling with the extension. Not sure if it's the timing of the extension, a leg strength issue or both.

 

The extension is the easy part. At least as far as physically doing it. It’s learning how and when to do it.

[WILDTHING]

With reference to the video below , how is JT turning his pelvis from P4 to P6 ? Is he using his obliques?

 

Plus , If he was pushing off his right foot as Tyler mentions between 1:11- 1:20, why has his right heel raised early but his leg got more flex (at P6 than at P4)? If he was pushing off that right leg , wouldn't it be extending more rather than flexing?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ow8N5a2Jng

 

 

PS. On reflection, are COP traces much help in trying to identify the dynamics happening in a golf swing? All it seems to prove is that there are different dynamics and biomechanics going on. It looks very complex trying to figure out what the body is trying to do to support the instantaneous 'body segment mass' movements that are happening to stay in balance plus optimise 'hand/clubhead paths' to ensure max clubhead speed through impact.

[CaddiesFault]

I worked 1 shift/week at the Kohler Swing Studio(part of Whistling Straits & Blackwolf Run) for a couple years. They use AboutGolf simulators with the 3trak overhead mount, and Ag forceplates & video for righty & lefty. It is quite the setup and i highly recommend going there if you visit Kohler.

 

Anyways, at 5'7 155lbs, I can generate 310-320lbs of ground force slightly before impact. I carry it in the 260's. We have another pro who carries it a good 290. He is long. He can generate 370 lbs of ground force slightly before impact. He is probably 5'11 170-180lbs. Very average size for a male. they seem to be directly proportional from my experience, and trying to double your bodyweight is a good start. Whether one can be determined to be the direct cause of the other is an interesting topic.

[Petunia Sprinkle]

we had the world long drive guy at our course, swinging 157 at times, flying it 390

 

highest ground forces ever measured FWIW

 

I’m all for information and research, but I’m also concerned what ams and instructors do with this info.

 

Lead tape on the left shoe (for right-handlers, of course)?

 

I think most people could swing faster were it not for that whole losing the ball in the woods issue.

[Saltire]

A few years back I did a lot of my range sessions and also on-course practice swings on my lead leg. This coincided with some of my longest and best ball striking rounds, could this just be coincidence or is this a good drill to increase GFR?

[WILDTHING]

It's this

 

 

Exactly

 

Aren't COP readings based on Pressure = Force per unit area?

 

So looking at the image and assuming JT had more of his front foot on the ground just before impact ,couldn't the following also apply?

 

The lead foot could in reality be pressing MORE from a force perspective but on a greater surface area of the ground, while the rear foot could (to all intents and purposes) be actually pressing LESS (from a force perspective) on a much smaller surface area of ground?

 

So depending on the contact surface area between each foot and plate (using the above scenario), the COP reading on the front foot could actually show less than rear foot , even though the force on the front foot was greater than the rear foot ?

 

If the above is true then aren't COP readings of limited use in identifying the real dynamics happening in the golf swing?

[Soloman1]

No, it’s not of limited use.

 

CoP can be very useful and it isn’t always what’s happening at impact, but what happened getting to impact and does it match up with the natural tendencies of the player, including things like the pivot axis of the player. The timing of change of CoP direction can be important. The maximum point of CoP towards the trail side can be important. The heel-toe pattern can be important. Timing of vertical load can be important.

 

My equipment (MySwing Balance) also measures stance width (an often overlooked parameter), swing tempo, vertical loading, in addition to horizontal velocity. The faster you’re moving to the lead side, the faster you’ll have to move your upper body and arms, hands and release, the more clubhead speed you’re likely to deliver.

 

Every pro using our balance plate finds value using it in their lessons.

[PorscheFan]

Well, I was maybe a little too quick to announce these data points as not necessarily actionable.

 

I joined anther group yesterday and they were all bombers. I wasn't driving it well, but some of my drives were 50 and ever 60 yards short of the pack. Driver performance on Game Golf was a measly 225 typical and 255 long.

 

Then I found this Robin Symes drill (bottom of post) related to lead foot pressure and tried it today at the range with a 7 iron. When I felt I had it down I moved to the driver, but tried to get the pressure as early in the downswing as possible. Ball speeds were up as measured by voice caddie, but so were my launches, going high and seemingly dropping spin. I dialed my XR16 down from 9* to 8* and was still hitting it high.

 

It didn't help my scoring, as I was ending up in places I wasn't used to, but my driving was my best performance ever by a margin. 254 yards short (1 yard below my longest yesterday) and 288 long.

 

The 288 actually carried into rough and rolled out in the rough, so I would have loved to see it land two yards right in the fairway and go longer.

 

I also had a 286 rolling out into rough, a 275 rolling out through a dogleg and into a fairway bunker, and then on the 9th I rolled a 19* hybrid 231 into rough after deeming that the driver was going too long for that hole. That was longer than my typical driver distance the day before.

 

I'm sure this would do nothing for those who already have it (like that group I joined on Saturday), but it was really beneficial for me.

 

[media=]

[/media]

 

[media=]

[/media]

[Swingman420]

As someone who has spent a lot of time and sacrifice in this game my honest opinion is this...about All the pressure shifting kinetics biomechanics whatever modern term that people use to make themselves sound smart use there is one fundamental truth.

It’s all in relation to the club.

If you don’t pay attention to the club you will pay for it. Might be bad back might be unclear mind..,whatever.

Some are better athletes and cane create and balance more swinging force than others.

Trying to do something by ground force conscious application is ridiculous.

Remember we are talking basically circular motion in the clubhead so ALL force vectors are in flux. You cannot do it by conscious application of mind. Impossible and no good golfer has ever done it like that.

[oikos1]

As someone who has spent a lot of time and sacrifice in this game my honest opinion is this...about All the pressure shifting kinetics biomechanics whatever modern term that people use to make themselves sound smart use there is one fundamental truth.

It's all in relation to the club.

If you don't pay attention to the club you will pay for it. Might be bad back might be unclear mind..,whatever.

Some are better athletes and cane create and balance more swinging force than others.

Trying to do something by ground force conscious application is ridiculous.

Remember we are talking basically circular motion in the clubhead so ALL force vectors are in flux. You cannot do it by conscious application of mind. Impossible and no good golfer has ever done it like that.

Ah yes, the magic pixie dust theory.

[Swingman420]

Hey OIKOS

if you can learn and then rehearse and then remember and then implement in real time perfectly timed force vector control related to a swinging object with conscious thought wiithout paying attention to the club you are the most talented person in the world.

I think however your primary talent is Internet golf forum troll responses which is what it is. We all have our talents in life...Some golf, some troll internet. Good for you.

[PorscheFan]

You cannot do it by conscious application of mind.

 

Yeah, you can. I just did it, so you can. I didn't talk it. I did it. So, you can.

 

You understand that a drill is consciously focusing on improving an aspect of the swing until you start doing it better, and then ultimately it becomes second nature?

[MadGolfer76]

Is this from a peer reviewed journal...or just hobbyist data gathering?

[oikos1]

Hey OIKOS

if you can learn and then rehearse and then remember and then implement in real time perfectly timed force vector control related to a swinging object with conscious thought wiithout paying attention to the club you are the most talented person in the world.

I think however your primary talent is Internet golf forum troll responses which is what it is. We all have our talents in life...Some golf, some troll internet. Good for you.

 

You might be surprised at the things you can accomplish in golf and in life if with conscious application of mind.

[Swingman420]

Porsche fan,

I have been there. When I played a lot about age 40, I could take modern driver and range rock at sea level and carry it over the range fence at 256. Hit a lot of greens been there. It’s just not rocket science in terms of execution.

They told me to stop because they had to walk around a fence and collect the balls off a dirt road.nnThat was beer belly and no working out and all. Been there on mechanics done it-mechanics is a never ending mental beat of.

Think of the complexity. Force vectors to accelerate an object in circular motion are constantly changing. 14 clubs in the bag. Nine shot shapes. Knockdowns high flops Full drives.

What matters is what we do in relation to the club. The club acts on us as we act on it and the result is kinetics. You need only three things in a good swing control balance and timing that’s it. Everything else is style.

No one wants to hear it but it’s true.

Am I saying study is a waste of time NO!!

Golf is where the ball goes.

I do not intend disrespect except to OIKOS. He is a garbage poster.

 

 

[Fort Worth Pro]

Hey OIKOS

if you can learn and then rehearse and then remember and then implement in real time perfectly timed force vector control related to a swinging object with conscious thought wiithout paying attention to the club you are the most talented person in the world.

I think however your primary talent is Internet golf forum troll responses which is what it is. We all have our talents in life...Some golf, some troll internet. Good for you.

 

To be fair that's exactly what I did. I had been to Kwon and had terribly timed force vectors. Fixed them and my peaks are very high and well timed.

 

[Swingman420]

Hey OIKOS

if you can learn and then rehearse and then remember and then implement in real time perfectly timed force vector control related to a swinging object with conscious thought wiithout paying attention to the club you are the most talented person in the world.

I think however your primary talent is Internet golf forum troll responses which is what it is. We all have our talents in life...Some golf, some troll internet. Good for you.

 

You might be surprised at the things you can accomplish in golf and in life if with conscious application of mind.

 

Focused attention yes. Conscious mind during the swing no. Execution should be mindless but not attention less that’s obvious.

You are more focused if you are lost within a process of focused attention. Scientific fact verifiable by brainwave measurement. They can quantify the brainwaves man.

It ain’t splayed beta!

[Swingman420]

Hey OIKOS

if you can learn and then rehearse and then remember and then implement in real time perfectly timed force vector control related to a swinging object with conscious thought wiithout paying attention to the club you are the most talented person in the world.

I think however your primary talent is Internet golf forum troll responses which is what it is. We all have our talents in life...Some golf, some troll internet. Good for you.

 

To be fair that's exactly what I did. I had been to Kwon and had terribly timed force vectors. Fixed them and my peaks are very high and well timed.

 

 

Changing the kinetics does not equal skill man that’s where people have it wrong. I didn’t need to look at your video from face on.

The body can be in any number of positions and Eamon Darcy would smoke you every day.

[Fort Worth Pro]

Hey OIKOS

if you can learn and then rehearse and then remember and then implement in real time perfectly timed force vector control related to a swinging object with conscious thought wiithout paying attention to the club you are the most talented person in the world.

I think however your primary talent is Internet golf forum troll responses which is what it is. We all have our talents in life...Some golf, some troll internet. Good for you.

 

To be fair that's exactly what I did. I had been to Kwon and had terribly timed force vectors. Fixed them and my peaks are very high and well timed.

 

 

Changing the kinetics does not equal skill man that’s where people have it wrong. I didn’t need to look at your video from face on.

The body can be in any number of positions and Eamon Darcy would smoke you every day.

 

Hahaha. I've added about 5 mph of speed and have played in 2 national club Professionals since making the changes. Last year was the best ball striking of my life and was as good as anyone not on the PGA tour. If I had the same information and swing at 21 that I have at 38 then I very well could have been right there. Had 2 tour players last year ask me why I wasn't playing full time which made me think about it and I realized I had zero desire to even try to go through that grind and be away from my wife and kid st thisnpoint in my life. Thanks for talking about things you have no idea about though.

[ebrasmus21]

Hey OIKOS

if you can learn and then rehearse and then remember and then implement in real time perfectly timed force vector control related to a swinging object with conscious thought wiithout paying attention to the club you are the most talented person in the world.

I think however your primary talent is Internet golf forum troll responses which is what it is. We all have our talents in life...Some golf, some troll internet. Good for you.

 

To be fair that's exactly what I did. I had been to Kwon and had terribly timed force vectors. Fixed them and my peaks are very high and well timed.

 

[media=]

[/media]

 

FWP - I found your video very interesting. I get a bit knock-kneed like the example of your old pivot so I'm working on that action right now. Thank you for sharing.

[PorscheFan]

Porsche fan,

I have been there. When I played a lot about age 40, I could take modern driver and range rock at sea level and carry it over the range fence at 256. Hit a lot of greens been there. It’s just not rocket science in terms of execution.

They told me to stop because they had to walk around a fence and collect the balls off a dirt road.nnThat was beer belly and no working out and all. Been there on mechanics done it-mechanics is a never ending mental beat of.

Think of the complexity. Force vectors to accelerate an object in circular motion are constantly changing. 14 clubs in the bag. Nine shot shapes. Knockdowns high flops Full drives.

What matters is what we do in relation to the club. The club acts on us as we act on it and the result is kinetics. You need only three things in a good swing control balance and timing that’s it. Everything else is style.

No one wants to hear it but it’s true.

Am I saying study is a waste of time NO!!

Golf is where the ball goes.

I do not intend disrespect except to OIKOS. He is a garbage poster.

 

I'm really trying to understand your perspective, but I'm honestly struggling.

 

Working on my kinematic sequence I've learned nothing but balance, sequence, and timing. Before I'd watch endless golf tips, take them to the range and end up, sore, tired and frustrated. Last year it ended in a serious injury. I'm not going back there.

 

Why wouldn't I use the hard data that's been collected in terms of how the best players in the world swing and try to leverage it?

 

Ultimately, I'm longer, more accurate, scoring better, in less pain, and most importantly enjoying golf even though I don't have much time to practice it. Why would I stop doing what's working? When I swing a golf club on the course is ultimately comes down to a simple vision and a simple feeling. I am not haunted by angles or fancy words when I play golf.

 

I have chosen not to focus on where player A's right elbow is at P6 vs. player B's because I find it confusing, difficult to replicate, and I don't see a ton of correlation between how some elite players swing. Compare that with kinematic sequence, pressure traces, etc. and there is a decent amount of commonality on how what's better vs. what's poor. Movement and sequence is more natural to me. May be not to you, but it is to me.

 

What's the alternative? This idea that you have a level of talent that you're born with that we all need to accept? Then why golf instruction forums? I have to learn to swing more efficiently, and quickly, because I was killing my body the old way.

 

For what it's worth, I am not a distance junkie when it comes to golf. I persist with 18 year old blades and am OK hitting a long par 3 with a hybrid while the kid beside me uses a juiced 6 iron. I do, however, desire - and expect - to become a better and more efficient driver of the golf ball. The metrics I use to gauge improvement are ball speed, launch angle, spin rate, dispersion, and whether I can get out of the house in the morning without taking painkillers.

[oikos1]

Porsche fan,

I have been there. When I played a lot about age 40, I could take modern driver and range rock at sea level and carry it over the range fence at 256. Hit a lot of greens been there. It’s just not rocket science in terms of execution.

They told me to stop because they had to walk around a fence and collect the balls off a dirt road.nnThat was beer belly and no working out and all. Been there on mechanics done it-mechanics is a never ending mental beat of.

Think of the complexity. Force vectors to accelerate an object in circular motion are constantly changing. 14 clubs in the bag. Nine shot shapes. Knockdowns high flops Full drives.

What matters is what we do in relation to the club. The club acts on us as we act on it and the result is kinetics. You need only three things in a good swing control balance and timing that’s it. Everything else is style.

No one wants to hear it but it’s true.

Am I saying study is a waste of time NO!!

Golf is where the ball goes.

I do not intend disrespect except to OIKOS. He is a garbage poster.

Personal insults aside, you don't appear to think that a conscious understanding of one's mass and application of pressure can influence control, balance and timing in an individual's golf swing.

 

I would ask what variables you think influence control, balance and timing in a golf swing but for some reason I expected better than "troll", "garbage poster" and intentional disrespect as your best application of the conscious mind. My mistake so never mind.

[Etzwane]

It's this

 

 

Exactly

 

Aren't COP readings based on Pressure = Force per unit area?

 

So looking at the image and assuming JT had more of his front foot on the ground just before impact ,couldn't the following also apply?

 

The lead foot could in reality be pressing MORE from a force perspective but on a greater surface area of the ground, while the rear foot could (to all intents and purposes) be actually pressing LESS (from a force perspective) on a much smaller surface area of ground?

 

So depending on the contact surface area between each foot and plate (using the above scenario), the COP reading on the front foot could actually show less than rear foot , even though the force on the front foot was greater than the rear foot ?

 

If the above is true then aren't COP readings of limited use in identifying the real dynamics happening in the golf swing?

 

COP is the fraction between left and right, it is not so interesting when one foot gets airborne, since at this very moment the COP is 100% on the other foot no matter how insignificant the force actually is. COP is a simplified presentation of the data that is not relevant in that particular case. What would interesting is the data on the magnitude of the forces on each foot.