My Paper Tiger journey / 1 year full time golfer job starts Monday 7-1-19

[HitEmTrue]

> @farmer said:

> I looked at a youtube video from Rob Noel. His player's posture was exactly like that shown in the cage picture. The player was hitting a 6 iron with a normal length swing, which for him was about 3/4. He absolutely rotated his hips and his trail leg straightened a bit. So, I am deeper in the "Grant doesn't understand" camp.

 

The contraption is lower, behind the legs, on the other guy. There is actually some space, so the right hip has more room to move backward some. On grant, it looks like it is against his rear at address.

[Shades234]

> @northgolf said:

> > @grantc79 said:

> > Got in 27 holes today I'm glad everyone had lots of time to post from the office :)

> That all? During the year I took off to play golf, I would walk/play 54 a day during the week (exclusive NE CC which had very little traffic during the week). How much time did you spend on the range, the putting green, and in the short game area? It really seems like you don't have the force of will to bring out the tiger.

>

 

I think he said he's devoting 30-40 hours per week to golf. Jack Nicklaus had a similar approach. "Worked" his game like it was an 8-5 job. However, he was already the best player in the world when he was doing that. Eventually, I'd expect OP to spend closer to 60 hours per week due to playing on weekends, but I guess we'll see. He should be about 10 days in so far and has been replying far more than I would if I was on a similar pursuit.

 

I'm not going to get into the swing controversy, but if I were OP I would be playing 27-36 per day and limiting range time to 90 mins or less per day for the first 3 weeks. Play a lot of holes and build up a portfolio of stats in an app like Decade without wearing out or injuring yourself by beating balls before your body is ready to handle that sort of professional workload.

[northgolf]

> @Shades234 said:

> > @northgolf said:

> > > @grantc79 said:

> > > Got in 27 holes today I'm glad everyone had lots of time to post from the office :)

> > That all? During the year I took off to play golf, I would walk/play 54 a day during the week (exclusive NE CC which had very little traffic during the week). How much time did you spend on the range, the putting green, and in the short game area? It really seems like you don't have the force of will to bring out the tiger.

> >

>

> I think he said he's devoting 30-40 hours per week to golf. Jack Nicklaus had a similar approach. "Worked" his game like it was an 8-5 job. However, he was already the best player in the world when he was doing that. Eventually, I'd expect OP to spend closer to 60 hours per week due to playing on weekends, but I guess we'll see. He should be about 10 days in so far and has been replying far more than I would if I was on a similar pursuit.

>

> I'm not going to get into the swing controversy, but if I were OP I would be playing 27-36 per day and limiting range time to 90 mins or less per day for the first 3 weeks. Play a lot of holes and build up a portfolio of stats in an app like Decade without wearing out or injuring yourself by beating balls before your body is ready to handle that sort of professional workload.

 

I was spending 30 minutes each on the putting green, the range, and the short game area. I was walking 54 in 6hrs. 45 min, hitting 2 balls and carrying. The CC was key, members there were comfortable with me playing single during the week and they always waved me through - I made a point of being gracious, thanking them, and learning all their names. All told, I was spending less than 9 hrs a day during the week.

 

On weekends I played one round each day. These were handicap/tournament rounds in season. Over the course of the year, I went from a 12 to a 2.3. In the end, my putting was abysmal - avg 34 per round. Course management was good off the tee, but I didn't understand how to hit into tricky greens (contributed greatly to my bad putting).

 

I dId this in the late 70`s. Modern day, I would ditch 18 each day during the week and spend those 2 hours on physical training interleaved with speed training (3 x 2 respectively). The club pro who gave me lessons was horrorifically bad, I got to where I was in spite of him. I was the epitome of Jack's saying that from a good setup even a bad swing will give a passable result,

 

I read paper tiger, Tom worked that year. For me, the year wasn't work. I absolutely loved being out on the course playing. No, I didn't make the tour or even become a plus four, but I was happy being out on the course and I ended the year in really great health ( walk 20,000 yards a day, with a bag of clubs on your shoulder, and good shape just happens). I can only attribute my happiness to the non-existence of the internet.

[CSagan]

Grant how is the beachbody workout going?

[grantc79]

 

 

Thats the guy that is the advocate for this golf swing. Michael Bentley. I'd highly recommend you take a look at the video especially around the 28 minute mark going forward.

 

https://blastmotion.com/products/golf/

 

He was one of the pioneers of Blast Golf which you may or may not have heard of.

 

What he is an advocate of is "stacking joints" which means developing a swing pattern that stacks your ankle bone, over your knee joint, over your hip joint. Imagine at the top of your back swing you could draw a vertical line and it passes directly through those joints. This is basically impossible to do with a straightening rear leg and outwardly rotating hip.

 

Feel free to research it, or not I'm sure you are smarter than him too :smile:

 

 

 

 

[grantc79]

> @CSagan said:

> Grant how is the beachbody workout going?

 

Turned 40 this week so a bit too many late nights and drinks so I've been slacking unfortunately. Doing a lot of golf drills with the blast motion sensors for putting, got a Rukknet to hit shots in my living room with, and doing Alcatraz work and tempo work.

[Krt22]

"Stacking the joints" and having no hip motion is great..for putting, which is what the entire video you posted is about.

[PowderedToastMan]

> @grantc79 said:

>

>

>

> Thats the guy that is the advocate for this golf swing. Michael Bentley. I'd highly recommend you take a look at the video especially around the 28 minute mark going forward.

>

> https://blastmotion.com/products/golf/

>

> He was one of the pioneers of Blast Golf which you may or may not have heard of.

>

> What he is an advocate of is "stacking joints" which means developing a swing pattern that stacks your ankle bone, over your knee joint, over your hip joint. Imagine at the top of your back swing you could draw a vertical line and it passes directly through those joints. This is basically impossible to do with a straightening rear leg and outwardly rotating hip.

>

> Feel free to research it, or not I'm sure you are smarter than him too :smile:

>

>

>

>

>

>

You realize people can disagree with you and that’s different than them saying “I’m smarter than you” right?

 

Maybe you should stop having a god complex about your teacher and realize it’s ok that people disagree with him, if he is in fact teaching what you think he is. That’s how golf instruction has evolved from the beginning. It started with small groups of pros around a table debating the fine points of the swing. Now we do it on the internet. It has NOTHING to do with attacking intelligence. It’s how academia and science have improved and evolved. Learning is not about being a yes man. It’s about questioning information, taking in lots of different information, and testing it on a large scale.

 

Can we agree on that and move on with the “you guys are geniuses and already know everything” sarcastic crap? You are difficult to actually have a conversation with because your retorts are “you guys are nobody’s and my teacher is somebody”. Not only is it not true, it’s a terrible argument.

 

[iteachgolf]

And plenty of biomechanics experts have disagreed with him for years. Both on full swing and on putting. He’s been teaching the 70* shoulder turn and no hip turn swing for over a decade. His putting setup preference is laughable.

 

 

Also you can’t have any knee bend and stack the knee, ankle, and hip joint from a DTL view. You absolutely can from FO though while straightening right leg and turning hips on a tilted angle. In fact it’s the easiest way to do it

[grantc79]

> @iteachgolf said:

> And plenty of biomechanics experts have disagreed with him for years. Both on full swing and on putting. He’s been teaching the 70* shoulder turn and no hip turn swing for over a decade. His putting setup preference is laughable.

>

>

> Also you can’t have any knee bend and stack the knee, ankle, and hip joint from a DTL view. You absolutely can from FO though while straightening right leg and turning hips on a tilted angle. In fact it’s the easiest way to do it

 

Everyone has their own way of doing things and time will tell

 

I know everyone hated aim point until they didn't

 

There was a mile long thread on here about how horrible Bryson was gonna be until he wasnt

 

For a guy like me who over rotates his hips and straightens his legs too much in the swing it's perfect ?

[grantc79]

> @PowderedToastMan said:

> > @grantc79 said:

> >

> >

> >

> > Thats the guy that is the advocate for this golf swing. Michael Bentley. I'd highly recommend you take a look at the video especially around the 28 minute mark going forward.

> >

> > https://blastmotion.com/products/golf/

> >

> > He was one of the pioneers of Blast Golf which you may or may not have heard of.

> >

> > What he is an advocate of is "stacking joints" which means developing a swing pattern that stacks your ankle bone, over your knee joint, over your hip joint. Imagine at the top of your back swing you could draw a vertical line and it passes directly through those joints. This is basically impossible to do with a straightening rear leg and outwardly rotating hip.

> >

> > Feel free to research it, or not I'm sure you are smarter than him too :smile:

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> You realize people can disagree with you and that’s different than them saying “I’m smarter than you” right?

>

> Maybe you should stop having a god complex about your teacher and realize it’s ok that people disagree with him, if he is in fact teaching what you think he is. That’s how golf instruction has evolved from the beginning. It started with small groups of pros around a table debating the fine points of the swing. Now we do it on the internet. It has NOTHING to do with attacking intelligence. It’s how academia and science have improved and evolved. Learning is not about being a yes man. It’s about questioning information, taking in lots of different information, and testing it on a large scale.

>

> Can we agree on that and move on with the “you guys are geniuses and already know everything” sarcastic crap? You are difficult to actually have a conversation with because your retorts are “you guys are nobody’s and my teacher is somebody”. Not only is it not true, it’s a terrible argument.

>

 

Of course we can ?

 

But considering you posted a long post within moments of me posting something you come across as just dying to be right.

 

You can't help but monitor this thread.

 

I'm not saying you guys have to agree. I'm not saying you are wrong and I'm right.

 

I'm simply saying it's possible you are wrong and you should consider the fact that there are smarter people than you on the subject which disagree with you and that should at least give you pause while perched on your soap box

 

For the fifteenth time I didnt come here for swing advice you guys all demanded to give it and want me to accept it which I don't.

[Krt22]

> @grantc79 said:

> > @iteachgolf said:

> > And plenty of biomechanics experts have disagreed with him for years. Both on full swing and on putting. He’s been teaching the 70* shoulder turn and no hip turn swing for over a decade. His putting setup preference is laughable.

> >

> >

> > Also you can’t have any knee bend and stack the knee, ankle, and hip joint from a DTL view. You absolutely can from FO though while straightening right leg and turning hips on a tilted angle. In fact it’s the easiest way to do it

>

> Everyone has their own way of doing things and time will tell

>

> I know everyone hated aim point until they didn't

>

> There was a mile long thread on here about how horrible Bryson was gonna be until he wasnt

>

> For a guy like me who over rotates his hips and straightens his legs too much in the swing it's perfect ?

 

Again you are confusing causation and correlation. There are plenty of good players that are good DESPITE having unique swings, they are not necessarily good players BECAUSE they have unique swings. What works for Bryson won't work for everyone (Bryson is a big, young, strong, and talented dude) . Just because your teacher has a few good players with very restricted hips doesn't mean its a universally good pattern for everyone and that doesn't mean they are reaching their full potential. If I am going to pick a pattern, I am going to pick what works for the vast large majority of good players, not what works for 1 or 2 notable ones we see on TV.

 

If you are ever in the northern part of your state, you should give the AMG guys a visit. You are harping on being open minded, you should do the same and see what is on the other side of the curtain, given the immense opportunity cost of essentially dedicating an entire year to golf.

[toc]

If the point is this thread isn’t for swing discussion (it’s in the instruction forum) then what is the point of this thread?

[ebrasmus21]

The only way this thread gets better (and by that I mean entertaining) is if Russc decides to join in the fun.

[DFinch]

> @toc said:

> If the point is this thread isn’t for swing discussion (it’s in the instruction forum) then what is the point of this thread?

 

Advice was asked for and welcomed in the first post until disagreement began. Now advice isn't welcome. It pretty much started with "2: Not allow my right hip to rotate backward at all in backswing at all" followed by the alcatraz video. OP doesn't want to listen to people, including top level players and instructors, who have been down that road. On the flip side, it is common advice here for people who are working with an instructor to stick with that program and not listen to forum advice. I hope the OP makes it through the year injury free. He shows some fundamental misunderstandings of causation in the swing and probable misunderstandings of what his instructor is trying to do, but I wish him success.

 

[PowderedToastMan]

> @grantc79 said:

> > @PowderedToastMan said:

> > > @grantc79 said:

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Thats the guy that is the advocate for this golf swing. Michael Bentley. I'd highly recommend you take a look at the video especially around the 28 minute mark going forward.

> > >

> > > https://blastmotion.com/products/golf/

> > >

> > > He was one of the pioneers of Blast Golf which you may or may not have heard of.

> > >

> > > What he is an advocate of is "stacking joints" which means developing a swing pattern that stacks your ankle bone, over your knee joint, over your hip joint. Imagine at the top of your back swing you could draw a vertical line and it passes directly through those joints. This is basically impossible to do with a straightening rear leg and outwardly rotating hip.

> > >

> > > Feel free to research it, or not I'm sure you are smarter than him too :smile:

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > You realize people can disagree with you and that’s different than them saying “I’m smarter than you” right?

> >

> > Maybe you should stop having a god complex about your teacher and realize it’s ok that people disagree with him, if he is in fact teaching what you think he is. That’s how golf instruction has evolved from the beginning. It started with small groups of pros around a table debating the fine points of the swing. Now we do it on the internet. It has NOTHING to do with attacking intelligence. It’s how academia and science have improved and evolved. Learning is not about being a yes man. It’s about questioning information, taking in lots of different information, and testing it on a large scale.

> >

> > Can we agree on that and move on with the “you guys are geniuses and already know everything” sarcastic crap? You are difficult to actually have a conversation with because your retorts are “you guys are nobody’s and my teacher is somebody”. Not only is it not true, it’s a terrible argument.

> >

>

> Of course we can ?

>

> But considering you posted a long post within moments of me posting something you come across as just dying to be right.

>

> You can't help but monitor this thread.

>

> I'm not saying you guys have to agree. I'm not saying you are wrong and I'm right.

>

> I'm simply saying it's possible you are wrong and you should consider the fact that there are smarter people than you on the subject which disagree with you and that should at least give you pause while perched on your soap box

>

> For the fifteenth time I didnt come here for swing advice you guys all demanded to give it and want me to accept it which I don't.

Vice versa man. Read back everything you just wrote and apply it to yourself. It’s amazing how you can’t do that but can offer that opinion.

 

And as someone mentioned, you are posting in the instruction forum, not the general golf forum. You can’t post your ideas about the golf swing here and expect no rebuttal.

 

One day you’ll realize you were the person who thought you knew everything and didn’t try to have a conversation. Even when presented with evidence that your swing isn’t bio mechanically correct, you still argued for it, even though your entire argument was based on the bio mechanical correctness.

 

By the way, I’m not giving you advice. I’m questioning the theories you are posting for us to read. This isn’t a blog. It’s a public forum. I’ll leave it be though. Arguing with you is like yelling at a wall.

 

 

[deadsolid...shank]

> @PowderedToastMan said:

> > @grantc79 said:

> > > @PowderedToastMan said:

> > > > @grantc79 said:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Thats the guy that is the advocate for this golf swing. Michael Bentley. I'd highly recommend you take a look at the video especially around the 28 minute mark going forward.

> > > >

> > > > https://blastmotion.com/products/golf/

> > > >

> > > > He was one of the pioneers of Blast Golf which you may or may not have heard of.

> > > >

> > > > What he is an advocate of is "stacking joints" which means developing a swing pattern that stacks your ankle bone, over your knee joint, over your hip joint. Imagine at the top of your back swing you could draw a vertical line and it passes directly through those joints. This is basically impossible to do with a straightening rear leg and outwardly rotating hip.

> > > >

> > > > Feel free to research it, or not I'm sure you are smarter than him too :smile:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > You realize people can disagree with you and that’s different than them saying “I’m smarter than you” right?

> > >

> > > Maybe you should stop having a god complex about your teacher and realize it’s ok that people disagree with him, if he is in fact teaching what you think he is. That’s how golf instruction has evolved from the beginning. It started with small groups of pros around a table debating the fine points of the swing. Now we do it on the internet. It has NOTHING to do with attacking intelligence. It’s how academia and science have improved and evolved. Learning is not about being a yes man. It’s about questioning information, taking in lots of different information, and testing it on a large scale.

> > >

> > > Can we agree on that and move on with the “you guys are geniuses and already know everything” sarcastic crap? You are difficult to actually have a conversation with because your retorts are “you guys are nobody’s and my teacher is somebody”. Not only is it not true, it’s a terrible argument.

> > >

> >

> > Of course we can ?

> >

> > But considering you posted a long post within moments of me posting something you come across as just dying to be right.

> >

> > You can't help but monitor this thread.

> >

> > I'm not saying you guys have to agree. I'm not saying you are wrong and I'm right.

> >

> > I'm simply saying it's possible you are wrong and you should consider the fact that there are smarter people than you on the subject which disagree with you and that should at least give you pause while perched on your soap box

> >

> > For the fifteenth time I didnt come here for swing advice you guys all demanded to give it and want me to accept it which I don't.

>

>

> By the way, I’m not giving you advice. I’m questioning the theories you are posting for us to read. This isn’t a blog. It’s a public forum. I’ll leave it be though. Arguing with you is like yelling at a wall.

>

>

I like yelling at the wall. It doesn’t yell back at me like the Mrs does!

 

[ferrispgm]

OP....you do realize that if you actually were over rotating your hips then you were rotating them at the wrong angle....meaning too flat...right? In golf...the opposite of bad doesn't always mean good...it can mean worse.

[MPStrat]

OP, is your goal to take your current swing, reduce the hip turn and wait for the magic to happen? Additionally, what effect will reducing your hip turn in the backswing have on your extremely steep shaft angle in transition and open clubface coming into impact? I'm not posting to pick on you, I'm interested to know how you think reducing your hip turn is going to help from a cause and effect standpoint.

[Krt22]

> @MPStrat said:

> OP, is your goal to take your current swing, reduce the hip turn and wait for the magic to happen? Additionally, what effect will reducing your hip turn in the backswing have on your extremely steep shaft angle in transition and open clubface coming into impact? I'm not posting to pick on you, I'm interested to know how you think reducing your hip turn is going to help from a cause and effect standpoint.

 

I've asked that a few times, was ignored, but I know the the answer is "Top 100 teacher".

[SDl227]

I was a student of Rob Noel’s for about 2.5 years. I’ve seen and used the Alcatraz. He only ever used it with me to demonstrate the posture he wanted at address. He never once mentioned it as a training aide to be used during a swing (practice or otherwise). Maybe there’s a mid-application, or maybe Rob was fine with my hip turn.

[SDl227]

Mis-application

[toc]

> @DFinch said:

> > @toc said:

> > If the point is this thread isn’t for swing discussion (it’s in the instruction forum) then what is the point of this thread?

>

> Advice was asked for and welcomed in the first post until disagreement began. Now advice isn't welcome. It pretty much started with "2: Not allow my right hip to rotate backward at all in backswing at all" followed by the alcatraz video. OP doesn't want to listen to people, including top level players and instructors, who have been down that road. On the flip side, it is common advice here for people who are working with an instructor to stick with that program and not listen to forum advice. I hope the OP makes it through the year injury free. He shows some fundamental misunderstandings of causation in the swing and probable misunderstandings of what his instructor is trying to do, but I wish him success.

>

 

Yea I just don’t get it. I mean I’m always in for a dumpster fire golfwrx argument thread, but the original intent baffles me. If not swing advice was this thread started just to brag about being able to play golf and not work, or to just post some recaps of poor rounds? Do people care about that kind of thing?

 

[HitEmTrue]

> @toc said:

> Yea I just don’t get it. I mean I’m always in for a dumpster fire golfwrx argument thread, but the original intent baffles me. If not swing advice was this thread started just to brag about being able to play golf and not work, or to just post some recaps of poor rounds? Do people care about that kind of thing?

>

 

There are a few long-running "journey" type threads on here. QMany, ddetts, Rich_S and Ebrasmus21 come to mind.

 

But for the most part this type of thread doesn't last.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Krt22]

> @SDl227 said:

> I was a student of Rob Noel’s for about 2.5 years. I’ve seen and used the Alcatraz. He only ever used it with me to demonstrate the posture he wanted at address. He never once mentioned it as a training aide to be used during a swing (practice or otherwise). Maybe there’s a mid-application, or maybe Rob was fine with my hip turn.

 

Thanks for joining the forum and for your input!

[SDl227]

> @PowderedToastMan said:

 

> By the way, I’m not giving you advice. I’m questioning the theories you are posting for us to read. This isn’t a blog. It’s a public forum. I’ll leave it be though. Arguing with you is like yelling at a wall.

>

 

You’re wasting your time. I know Grant. He will argue with you no matter what. You could say the sky is blue, and he’d swear it’s red.

 

He’s a nice enough guy in person, but the constant insistence that he’s right is exhausting. Just look at any thread on this site he has ever posted on. There’s always an argument that he’s “right” about.

 

By the way, I’ve played golf with him 30+ times and never seen him break 80....or take less than 5 mulligans.

 

 

 

[JeffreySpicoli]

> @SDl227 said:

> > @PowderedToastMan said:

>

> > By the way, I’m not giving you advice. I’m questioning the theories you are posting for us to read. This isn’t a blog. It’s a public forum. I’ll leave it be though. Arguing with you is like yelling at a wall.

> >

>

> You’re wasting your time. I know Grant. He will argue with you no matter what. You could say the sky is blue, and he’d swear it’s red.

>

> He’s a nice enough guy in person, but the constant insistence that he’s right is exhausting. Just look at any thread on this site he has ever posted on. There’s always an argument that he’s “right” about.

>

> By the way, I’ve played golf with him 30+ times and never seen him break 80....or take less than 5 mulligans.

>

>

>

 

I take it that you’re his wife?

[SDl227]

Nah. Just someone who is familiar. I stumbled on this thread and found it hilarious

[Krt22]

> @SDl227 said:

> > @PowderedToastMan said:

>

> > By the way, I’m not giving you advice. I’m questioning the theories you are posting for us to read. This isn’t a blog. It’s a public forum. I’ll leave it be though. Arguing with you is like yelling at a wall.

> >

>

> You’re wasting your time. I know Grant. He will argue with you no matter what. You could say the sky is blue, and he’d swear it’s red.

>

> He’s a nice enough guy in person, but the constant insistence that he’s right is exhausting. Just look at any thread on this site he has ever posted on. There’s always an argument that he’s “right” about.

>

> By the way, I’ve played golf with him 30+ times and never seen him break 80....or take less than 5 mulligans.

>

>

>

 


 

[JeffreySpicoli]

> @SDl227 said:

> Nah. Just someone who is familiar. I stumbled on this thread and found it hilarious

 

Ah. I don’t need to offer my condolences then. ;)

 

From his behavior here, he seems like an egotistical and argumentative club ho with a mediocre game at best. Nothing wrong with that unless one attempts to present themselves as more than they are.