My Paper Tiger journey / 1 year full time golfer job starts Monday 7-1-19

[SDl227]

> @matthewb said:

> > @SDl227 said:

> > Nah. Just someone who is familiar. I stumbled on this thread and found it hilarious

>

> Ah. I don’t need to offer my condolences then. ;)

>

> From his behavior here, he seems like an egotistical and argumentative club ho with a mediocre game at best. Nothing wrong with that unless one attempts to present themselves as more than they are.

 

That’s fairly accurate. I’d guess he’s a 12, but he’d tell you he’s a 5 that could be scratch if he was a better putter

[JeffreySpicoli]

> @SDl227 said:

> > @matthewb said:

> > > @SDl227 said:

> > > Nah. Just someone who is familiar. I stumbled on this thread and found it hilarious

> >

> > Ah. I don’t need to offer my condolences then. ;)

> >

> > From his behavior here, he seems like an egotistical and argumentative club ho with a mediocre game at best. Nothing wrong with that unless one attempts to present themselves as more than they are.

>

> That’s fairly accurate. I’d guess he’s a 12, but he’d tell you he’s a 5 that could be scratch if he was a better putter

 

Regardless, I wish you, him, your families and friends, and all of NOLA nothing but safety and well-being with the current flooding and hurricane.

 

[farmer]

> @SDl227 said:

> I was a student of Rob Noel’s for about 2.5 years. I’ve seen and used the Alcatraz. He only ever used it with me to demonstrate the posture he wanted at address. He never once mentioned it as a training aide to be used during a swing (practice or otherwise). Maybe there’s a mid-application, or maybe Rob was fine with my hip turn.

 

I have posted my theory about this. Sweet vindication!

[farmer]

Yeah the thread is amusing in a kind of twisted way, but the folks in the path of the storm have some real shite to deal with. Good fortune for all.

[deadsolid...shank]

Well this thread got an added twist that we don’t normally see, firsthand knowledge.

[ebrasmus21]

> @"deadsolid...shank" said:

> Well this thread got an added twist that we don’t normally see, firsthand knowledge.

 

Interesting, what comes down the pike when least expected.

[ChrisSP]

> @SDl227 said:

> > @PowderedToastMan said:

>

> > By the way, I’m not giving you advice. I’m questioning the theories you are posting for us to read. This isn’t a blog. It’s a public forum. I’ll leave it be though. Arguing with you is like yelling at a wall.

> >

>

> You’re wasting your time. I know Grant. He will argue with you no matter what. You could say the sky is blue, and he’d swear it’s red.

>

> He’s a nice enough guy in person, but the constant insistence that he’s right is exhausting. Just look at any thread on this site he has ever posted on. There’s always an argument that he’s “right” about.

>

> By the way, I’ve played golf with him 30+ times and never seen him break 80....or take less than 5 mulligans.

>

>

>

 

Ouch ...

 

And you've played 30+ rounds with him? That's a lot of lip-outs to look at.

[ddetts]

> @HitEmTrue said:

> > @toc said:

> > Yea I just don’t get it. I mean I’m always in for a dumpster fire golfwrx argument thread, but the original intent baffles me. If not swing advice was this thread started just to brag about being able to play golf and not work, or to just post some recaps of poor rounds? Do people care about that kind of thing?

> >

>

> There are a few long-running "journey" type threads on here. QMany, ddetts, Rich_S and Ebrasmus21 come to mind.

>

> But for the most part this type of thread doesn't last.

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

I'm only in just over a year, but man I've got nothing on this thread. This is entertainment at its finest!

[Oriolesfan138]

If I had the time and money, my first stop would be to go spend a couple half days with Monte, iTeach or the AMG guys almost as like a boot camp to get going in the right direction.

[grantc79]

Cliff notes, went and saw the other local coach and will be switching to him. That said, 100% verified what the other coach was teaching (they wanted me out making half swings in the alcatraz PVC setup as many as I could stomach). I was NOT wrong about what the first coach was TRYING to teach. That said I no longer intend to try to learn it.

 

So, update today went and saw the other local coach that I had discussed and had a lesson with him. Exact opposite strategy of the first coach and exact opposite teaching method. Still based around force plates and trackman data but not based around highly technical stuff at all, just feel. I was swinging 5 to 7 degrees inside out he told me figure out how to cut that down to 1 to 2 and we went from there.

 

Old coach would have spent a huge chunk of the lesson teaching a new position. New coach basically said you swing it 6 degrees inside out, feel like you swing it dead left and see what happens. He actually said "I don't wanna give you a swing mechanic if you can figure it out yourself then that is better." I immediately knocked 6 degrees down to 2 and even got it down as low as 1 degree inside out which had me hitting it A LOT better.

 

He was at the same class that discussed the alcatraz setup and basically he thinks its great for learning posture and setup but not for actually swinging a club. Basically, **_"he's never seen a good golfer that doesn't open the hips some going back and a lot more going forward."_**

 

Effectively my homework is to figure out how to swing a lot more left then go see him again in two weeks.

 

This lesson was the exact opposite of every lesson I've ever had, no technical work at all. I don't need to go to the course and feel knee bend or hips staying here or there. Completely liberating.

 

[ebrasmus21]

Oh my. What a change of events.

[DFinch]

So now you see why the defensiveness was spiraling into arguments with people who do, in fact, know what they are talking about.

 

[JeffreySpicoli]

> @DFinch said:

> So now you see why the defensiveness was spiraling into arguments with people who do, in fact, know what they are talking about.

>

 

Nah. Grant figured this all out on his own. He’s never wrong and he’s entirely his own man.

[Krt22]

> @DFinch said:

> So now you see why the defensiveness was spiraling into arguments with people who do, in fact, know what they are talking about.

>

 

Clearly pure coincidence that a bunch of internet hacks all happened to say the same thing as another top 100 instructor.

 

 

 

[PowderedToastMan]

Good luck man. Been hard on you in this thread but I wish you the best. I think getting opinions from a variety of instructors ultimately helps a golfer learn, even if you end up rejecting most of it. You’re in the process of picking and choosing what works for you and it seems like you’re finding your way.

 

Keep believing in yourself but allow yourself to be receptive to trusted voices. Works for golf and life.

[rich_s2]

> @grantc79 said:

> Cliff notes, went and saw the other local coach and will be switching to him. That said, 100% verified what the other coach was teaching (they wanted me out making half swings in the alcatraz PVC setup as many as I could stomach). I was NOT wrong about what the first coach was TRYING to teach. That said I no longer intend to try to learn it.

>

> So, update today went and saw the other local coach that I had discussed and had a lesson with him. Exact opposite strategy of the first coach and exact opposite teaching method. Still based around force plates and trackman data but not based around highly technical stuff at all, just feel. I was swinging 5 to 7 degrees inside out he told me figure out how to cut that down to 1 to 2 and we went from there.

>

> Old coach would have spent a huge chunk of the lesson teaching a new position. New coach basically said you swing it 6 degrees inside out, feel like you swing it dead left and see what happens. He actually said "I don't wanna give you a swing mechanic if you can figure it out yourself then that is better." I immediately knocked 6 degrees down to 2 and even got it down as low as 1 degree inside out which had me hitting it A LOT better.

>

> He was at the same class that discussed the alcatraz setup and basically he thinks its great for learning posture and setup but not for actually swinging a club. Basically, **_"he's never seen a good golfer that doesn't open the hips some going back and a lot more going forward."_**

>

> Effectively my homework is to figure out how to swing a lot more left then go see him again in two weeks.

>

> This lesson was the exact opposite of every lesson I've ever had, no technical work at all. I don't need to go to the course and feel knee bend or hips staying here or there. Completely liberating.

>

 

This is literally the greatest moment of my life. I tried to stay away and save this for winter like I did with peanut butter crunch bars but I’m 220 for a reason.

[Forged4ever]

> @drewtaylor21 said:

> > @grantc79 said:

> > The guys I mentioned they don't do it exactly where their knees and hips don't move but they are definitely trending that way where it's less hip rotation and less straightening of the legs

> >

> > **If we can all agree that creating power comes from the legs then please name me a situation in which to generate power you would straighten your legs**

> >

> > if you wanted to throw the football or baseball farther would you straighten your back leg in order to take the football back farther behind your head

>

> Well, jumping, running, cutting/driving laterally to name a few....really every fundamental lower body movement involves flexing and extending the major joints of the lower extremity!

> OP, I love the opportunity you have ahead of you, but if your teacher is telling you to actively resist lower body rotation, I'd run far far away while your back is still pain-free!

 

> @"b.helts" said:

> Entertainment at its finest right here.

>

> And I think going to get better.

 

A few more disjointed, discombobulated and totally F’d up musings from underneath the train wreck???

 

Brian(@"b.helts") and Drew entered the fray since my last train wreck??

 

These are two more that have “been there done that,” especially Brian, and their words are gold!!

 

While Brian’s a great guy, and a Stud as a Player, and I’m talkin Elite when he’s firin on all cylinders, like most of us, if he’s dealing with an *ssh***, he can get a tad edgy, lolol

 

Drew on the other hand, along with Obes(Obee), while being serious Players/Pluses, are two of the Nicest Classiest and most Gentlemanly Players on the west coast, not to mention this board!!

 

We once had a super duper elite Player by the name of “Jonesy,” and while most of us lost our s*** trying to open a sensible dialogue with him, Drew never once got cynical, got nasty or took a shot at Jonesy, and even I, who actually felt sorry for him, lost it on him a few times.

 

Come to think of it, I wonder how the big guy’s doin out there in the great northwest?

 

FWIW, I’ve never ever seen a video of my swing and one of the Pearl’s that I’ll always remember is when Sam & I were over at Oakmont when Rick Martinio, PGA Master Professional and Uber Teacher to the Stars today was a young Asst. under Bob and he was the first guy in Pittsburgh into video and guys from all the clubs were lined up and signed up to work with Rick and he laughingly asked me when my Teacher was “gonna get with the program(he knew that Pete Snead was my Teacher),” and Sam responded in a serious tone, and I knew when he was joking and when he was serious, as the first sign that he was dead @rse serious was when he addressed you as “Son,” lol, and THOSE were the Pearls that ya wanted to STFU, listen and take away, and he looked at Rick and said “Son, the ONLY video that’s worth a d@mn in this game UNDER PRESSURE ON THE COURSE is the one that is in your mind’s eye!!

 

A lot of you have known me and seen my posts for some time and you know that I very very rarely take a post, comment or opinion and shred it cuz at the end of the day it is just that, an opinion, be they mine or yours.

 

However, saying that Sam or any of the other older greats Pros like Toski, Runyan or Hogan couldn’t sit down at a table today with all of these paper swing gurus, or that what he would have to say “isn’t really applicable because they “were all around pre trackman and frankly before we knew how the human body works,” is one of the dumbest most uneducated F’n statements that I’ve EVER seen posted in this forum???

 

I would LOOOOOVE for you to be seated at a table with bonafide Players, Pros and Teachers, like say Monte, Jim Waldron, Bob Ford along with fellow member Bruce, a former Senior/Champions Tour Player and Patrick Burke(Rangersgoalie), who Played the Big Boy Tour for 9 seasons before a shredded shoulder derailed his career and say something as blindly ignorant as that???

 

After reading your statement earlier, I called my father in Fla, where he recently retired to on 12/32/2018 after a 44+ year surgical transplant career, not counting med school, medical internship, 2 surgical residencies and a surgical fellowship, with the first 24 of those years as the Chief, Renal Transplant, Presbyterian University Hospital(later UPMC), Pgh, PA, THE premier Renal and General Transplant Program & Team on planet earth, and I asked him what, if anything had changed anatomically, physiologically or biologically in the human body or his or his peers’ knowledge of it from the early 60’s, when he was taught all this stuff in med school, to circa 2018, when he was on his way out the door.

 

There was a silence on the phone and then he said only, “are you F’d up,” lol, speaking to the dilaudid that I am presently on. He then said that I knew better than to ask such a “stupid f’n question” and I of course do know better, as my dual BSc in Chemistry and Biology gave me a good grounding in human physiology, anatomy, biology and biomechanics, though I wanted to see what someone on the cutting edge of World Class surgery had to say.

 

Now if that is surgery, saving lives, yada yada yada, WTF do you think has transpired in the wild wonderful wacky world of golf over the same time, lmao???

 

Sure, there are more toys to Play with, just as there are in the world of surgery, however I GUARANF’NTEE ya that just as my Father and his Peers could use the foundation & fundamental knowledge to get the same exact if not superior outcomes, as their ability has improved over the decades with the thousands of reps(cases), so too can ANY PLAYER(you Plusses know of whom I speak when I use the word “Player,” capital “P”?) on a course or line today achieve the same if not better outcomes with the same foundation and fundamental knowledge, ie., divot, ball flight, divot, ball flight, divot, ball flight..........

 

Just as the surgeons of today have more toys to Play with, save lives with and amuse themselves with, so to does the average golf Pro/Teacher, however the basic fundamentals have not changed, nor will they ever!!

 

If you become a master of your ball flight and your divot, and this is all that I was taught and all that I ever used, outside of either Pete’s or Maddie’s eyes to occasionally bring me back to center, you have enough to master this game and be in that top .50% and Play for Pay.

 

Sam’s words are much truer today than they were almost half a century ago(45+ years) when he first muttered them to the 70’s versions of today’s paper gurus at a Golf Digest Teacher’s Summit...

 

“Ya’ll are using trigonometry when this game is simple arithmetic”

 

It’s easy to say stupid shat on this board behind a keyboard and screen however I would actually pay a couple of Benjamins just to hear someone say that what Pete, Sam, Ben and the other guys that I mentioned above “aren’t really applicable because they were all around pre trackman and frankly before we knew how the human body works”????

 

Seriously, it’d be worth $200 to see their reactions and responses???

 

Out of curiosity, WTF is your handicap?

 

I’ll put $200 right now that you’re not a Plus thinking like that!!

 

NFW!!!

 

Ok, rant over, derailment complete, lol

 

Stay well my Friends, and when you’re on the course, your chest is a lil tight, your breathing shallow and irregular, and your mind’s takin you in 3-4 different directions???

 

Simple arithmetic!!!!

 

Brian, Drew, Jim, Monte, Bruce and Patrick, I hope that you’re all well and Patrick, I hope that your shoulder is under control!!

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever My Friends⛳️

RP

[farmer]

Richard, just say what you mean, no dancing around, please.

[Forged4ever]

> @farmer said:

> Richard, just say what you mean, no dancing around, please.

 

Hey Farms, I hope that you’re having a nice season?

 

I was just amazed that no one else picked up on that, lolol

 

He’s a great guy and member but Jesus...

 

Well, I’ll just STFU and go ghost? again??

 

There’s no denyin that I’m an a**h***, lol??

 

Stay well my Friend?

RP

 

[ebrasmus21]

@Forged4ever get ready for OP to disagree with everything you’ve said

[JeffreySpicoli]

> @ebrasmus21 said:

> @Forged4ever get ready for OP to disagree with everything you’ve said

 

Or Grant will use his other common tactic—act like he never read/heard it and ignore it or if there’s something he likes, then he claims it as his own idea.

[Forged4ever]

> @ebrasmus21 said:

> @Forged4ever get ready for OP to disagree with everything you’ve said

 

Hey Brother, I hope all’s well?

 

That’s fine, as it’s just an opinion, though when he Plays at Plus in a tourney or two or steps over a shot or putt for a grand or two, and makes em, then he can say whatever he wants, lol.

 

You know me and that “been there done that” thingy, lol?

 

Stay well and have a great season?

Richard

[Golfbeat]

I am trying to find out what the “Tiger” part of this journey is. The “Paper” part is now well documented.

[grantc79]

> @SDl227 said:

> I was a student of Rob Noel’s for about 2.5 years. I’ve seen and used the Alcatraz. He only ever used it with me to demonstrate the posture he wanted at address. He never once mentioned it as a training aide to be used during a swing (practice or otherwise). Maybe there’s a mid-application, or maybe Rob was fine with my hip turn.

 

And

> @SDl227 said:

> > @PowderedToastMan said:

>

> > By the way, I’m not giving you advice. I’m questioning the theories you are posting for us to read. This isn’t a blog. It’s a public forum. I’ll leave it be though. Arguing with you is like yelling at a wall.

> >

>

> You’re wasting your time. I know Grant. He will argue with you no matter what. You could say the sky is blue, and he’d swear it’s red.

>

> He’s a nice enough guy in person, but the constant insistence that he’s right is exhausting. Just look at any thread on this site he has ever posted on. There’s always an argument that he’s “right” about.

>

> By the way, I’ve played golf with him 30+ times and never seen him break 80....or take less than 5 mulligans.

>

>

>

 

And you are who fake account with 5 posts lol

 

 

[grantc79]

> @PowderedToastMan said:

> Good luck man. Been hard on you in this thread but I wish you the best. I think getting opinions from a variety of instructors ultimately helps a golfer learn, even if you end up rejecting most of it. You’re in the process of picking and choosing what works for you and it seems like you’re finding your way.

>

> Keep believing in yourself but allow yourself to be receptive to trusted voices. Works for golf and life.

 

I hear ya, ultimately I got completely sold on the Alcatraz thing when I spoke to the other local teacher about it and he said "oh yes we do the same thing". Only issue is when I actually had a lesson with the guy he said they only use it for putting, posture, stance, etc.

 

The lesson from him was very eye opening as it was a completely feel based lesson as opposed to a completely mechanical lesson. It was night and day different and pretty refreshing.

 

Understand my situation I have my current coach that I've seen for 10 years hammering it on me then I've got the other extremely well respected local coach saying "oh yes we do it too" without knowing the extent that it was being used. Its hard for me to tell both of them they are idiots because guys on Golfwrx know better.

 

Once the other coach had the full story it became a lot more of an epiphany moment.

 

 

[Krt22]

Amazing, you talked down your nose to everyone, including a bunch of well educated elite players and actual instructors, all based on a single comment from an instructor you hadn't even had a lesson with yet.

 

If you really do want to get better, I'd recommend doing a deeper dive into the golf swing. If you've been seeing the same instructor for 10 years and are still struggling to break 80 you might benefit from starting to educate yourself on the swing. Not only doing the drills, making changes, etc but understanding their intent and what flaw they aim to address.

 

[grantc79]

> @Krt22 said:

> Amazing, you talked down your nose to everyone, including a bunch of well educated elite players and actual instructors, all based on a single comment from an instructor you hadn't even had a lesson with yet.

>

> If you really do want to get better, I'd recommend doing a deeper dive into the golf swing. If you've been seeing the same instructor for 10 years and are still struggling to break 80 you might benefit from starting to educate yourself on the swing. Not only doing the drills, making changes, etc but understanding their intent and what flaw they aim to address.

>

 

I think you might have misunderstood what I posted. It was what I thought was confirmation from a second instructor that had me so sure of that path. I have coach #1 saying this is how to do it, I reached out to coach #2 and he said he was doing the same thing but he didn't know the full scope of how coach #1 was using it. Once understood the extent to which it was being used for the actual full swing (not just posture and putting) he completely disagreed with that philosophy.

 

As far as your second point, I hear you but honestly that's where I feel like I've been bogged down forever. I don't wanna analyze my swing to death I've done that ever since I started playing golf and its lead to almost ZERO putting, scoring, and short game practice while I focused intently on the swing. Meanwhile, I'll hit it good but players who don't hit it as well as me make putts, get up and down, and out score me.

 

I have focused so much on technical stuff I have no feel.

 

[grantc79]

> @Forged4ever said:

> RP

 

The point about Sam Snead was simply that guys back then had no access to technology which really made a lot of what they did more impressive. There was much more "interesting" swings back then from the truly great players because everyone just had to go out with balls and figure it out. High speed cameras weren't even the norm much less track man.

 

In my opinion, you see a lot of swings now that are very similar because everyone basically agrees there is a right way and wrong way to do it and guys are basically building their swings around a model for the most part. I've never been afraid to try something different, heck I played single length clubs for the past 3 years and went single plane like Dechambeau who does it very different than the norm

 

Snead and the old timer crew would be an amazing group of people to hang out with and learn how to play from because that's what they did, they just figured it out. I believe there is a quote somewhere that said if Tiger had a track man in his earlier years he would have won 25 majors which I don't disagree with.

 

We simply know more now than we did then.

 

 

[MountainGoat]

> @grantc79 said:

> I don't wanna analyze my swing to death I've done that ever since I started playing golf and its lead to almost ZERO putting, scoring, and short game practice while I focused intently on the swing. Meanwhile, I'll hit it good but players who don't hit it as well as me make putts, get up and down, and out score me.

>I have focused so much on technical stuff I have no feel.

 

 

Just once I'd like to see one of these personal improvement blogs utilize "Inner Game" methodology rather than technical analysis.

[farmer]

I bet ol' Sam is happy that Grant has acknowledged that he could could play a little. Now, dig up all the Snead videos you can find, forget about positions, and try to ingrain the cadence, the tempo, the rhythm of that majestic swing. As to Tman and Tiger, Monte has said many times that chasing numbers is a fool's errand. All the numbers in the world wouldn't have stopped him from changing swings, coaches, wrecking his knees, his back and blowing up his life in public.