My Paper Tiger journey / 1 year full time golfer job starts Monday 7-1-19

[drewtaylor21]

> @grantc79 said:

> > @drewtaylor21 said:

> > > @grantc79 said:

> > > The guys I mentioned they don't do it exactly where their knees and hips don't move but they are definitely trending that way where it's less hip rotation and less straightening of the legs

> > >

> > > **If we can all agree that creating power comes from the legs then please name me a situation in which to generate power you would straighten your legs**

> > >

> > > if you wanted to throw the football or baseball farther would you straighten your back leg in order to take the football back farther behind your head

> >

> > Well, jumping, running, cutting/driving laterally to name a few....really every fundamental lower body movement involves flexing and extending the major joints of the lower extremity!

> > OP, I love the opportunity you have ahead of you, but if your teacher is telling you to actively resist lower body rotation, I'd run far far away while your back is still pain-free!

 

>

> Actually both the top 100 rated teachers near me are advocates of it ?

 

That's unfortunate, but I hope you will look more objectively at evidence instead of a very subjective award handed out that has very little to do with actual teaching success. My suggestion here is to simply look at players who are the best at hitting it long and straight and ask yourself if what you've decided to do makes sense. Here are the top 3 drivers of the ball from 2019. Would you say the trail knee has stayed flexed, or has it extended in the backswing? Do these players look to be actively restricting hip turn?

 

 

Next, since you brought up the idea that we know more about how the body works now, ask yourself this: If you don't allow the hips to rotate, what has to rotate more in order to attain a sufficiently long backswing? I'll tell you - it's the next segment above the hips, the lumbar spine. The lumbar spine is NOT meant to be a rotational segment of the body, it is designed for stability (largest, widest vertebrae). Again, my only suggestion is to think for yourself with this. Do you think it is wise to limit a (hip) joint that is designed for massive range of motion in exchange for more movement in a segment (lumbar spine) that is not designed for rotation?

Finally, you mentioned above the idea that creating a spring or coil adds to speed/power, and I'd agree. My confusion is why would you not then maximize everything that could coil in the backswing to unleash it in the downswing? Throwing and hitting a golf ball are VERY different physical motions, but take a look at one of your examples here, specifically at the trail hip joint - can you see the pretty significant amount of internal rotation that has taken place in the "backswing" (windup)? I'd say it looks pretty similar to our friend Bubba at the top of his backswing.... Do you think it would be wise to tell Aroldis to limit this rotation?

[grantc79]

> @drewtaylor21 said:

 

>

> Next, since you brought up the idea that we know more about how the body works now, ask yourself this: If you don't allow the hips to rotate, what has to rotate more in order to attain a sufficiently long backswing? I'll tell you - it's the next segment above the hips, the lumbar spine. The lumbar spine is NOT meant to be a rotational segment of the body, it is designed for stability (largest, widest vertebrae). Again, my only suggestion is to think for yourself with this. Do you think it is wise to limit a (hip) joint that is designed for massive range of motion in exchange for more movement in a segment (lumbar spine) that is not designed for rotation?

> Finally, you mentioned above the idea that creating a spring or coil adds to speed/power, and I'd agree. My confusion is why would you not then maximize everything that could coil in the backswing to unleash it in the downswing? Throwing and hitting a golf ball are VERY different physical motions, but take a look at one of your examples here, specifically at the trail hip joint - can you see the pretty significant amount of internal rotation that has taken place in the "backswing" (windup)? I'd say it looks pretty similar to our friend Bubba at the top of his backswing.... Do you think it would be wise to tell Aroldis to limit this rotation?

>

 

I think we aren't talking about the same things. I'm making the argument that sufficient power is able to be created without a huge shoulder turn and without straightening the leg or rotating the hip backwards. In fact, I actually generate more speed with a shorter swing and a restricted hip turn and bent right knee because it makes me load my right side better.

 

Actually Aroldis does limit his rotation. He could rotate a lot more if he simply straightened his back leg and rotated his hip backwards, but he doesn't. Imagine how far back he could take the ball if he simply straightened that back leg and rotated the hip! Only problem is he would lose speed.

 

Ultimately, as the Tiger video very perfectly put it speed isn't the issue. With that very restricted swing in that PVC contraption I can generate plenty of speed and so can anyone else in reasonable shape with reasonable size.

 

The question is, if they restricted hip movement, knee straightening and all of those things and SIMPLIFIED the motion could they hit it more accurately with the same or similar power?

 

Rather than debate me on the topic, why don't you go the the range or some place with a hitting studio and try what I'm saying and tell me what happens?

[grantc79]

> @hoselpalooza said:

 

> unless i've misunderstood, tiger's problem was getting too much separation. e.g. he fired his lower body too fast/too early to make up for a lack of strength as a junior golfer. this made his swing dependent upon good timing which could prove unreliable in high-pressure situations. so to reduce his dependence on timing he increased his strength and improved his swing sequence to get his upper and lower body more in sync at the beginning of the downswing.

 

Improved his swing sequence by limiting his lower body activity specifically his hip rotation. He wants less lower body activity, dramatically less.

That means keep your knee bend and as much as possible feel like the hips are not rotating. Everyone is going to rotate the hips some just like everyone INCLUDING Koepka and Finau are going to straighten their knees a bit.

 

The question is:

1: Is it necessary to play good golf?

2: Is it necessary to create speed?

3: Will you be more accurate limiting that knee and hip movement?

 

 

[grantc79]

http://www.golfwrx.com/460658/the-benefits-of-maintaining-flex-in-your-rear-knee-during-the-backswing/

 

Directly from this site.................

[Krt22]

Again, pre-spinal fusion tiger. His hip turn now is much different (a lot more hip turn), worked for an old man with 4 back surgeries to win the Tour Championship and the Masters.

 

And yes, agree with others, you are misinterpreting the Butch video. He is talking about his hips in transition out racing the arms and needing to get his arms synced up. People with this issue typically improve by getting a deeper hip turn so their arms have more time to get out in front

[drewtaylor21]

> @grantc79 said:

> > @drewtaylor21 said:

>

> >

> > Next, since you brought up the idea that we know more about how the body works now, ask yourself this: If you don't allow the hips to rotate, what has to rotate more in order to attain a sufficiently long backswing? I'll tell you - it's the next segment above the hips, the lumbar spine. The lumbar spine is NOT meant to be a rotational segment of the body, it is designed for stability (largest, widest vertebrae). Again, my only suggestion is to think for yourself with this. Do you think it is wise to limit a (hip) joint that is designed for massive range of motion in exchange for more movement in a segment (lumbar spine) that is not designed for rotation?

> > Finally, you mentioned above the idea that creating a spring or coil adds to speed/power, and I'd agree. My confusion is why would you not then maximize everything that could coil in the backswing to unleash it in the downswing? Throwing and hitting a golf ball are VERY different physical motions, but take a look at one of your examples here, specifically at the trail hip joint - can you see the pretty significant amount of internal rotation that has taken place in the "backswing" (windup)? I'd say it looks pretty similar to our friend Bubba at the top of his backswing.... Do you think it would be wise to tell Aroldis to limit this rotation?

> >

>

> I think we aren't talking about the same things. I'm making the argument that sufficient power is able to be created without a huge shoulder turn and without straightening the leg or rotating the hip backwards. In fact, I actually generate more speed with a shorter swing and a restricted hip turn and bent right knee because it makes me load my right side better.

>

> Actually Aroldis does limit his rotation. He could rotate a lot more if he simply straightened his back leg and rotated his hip backwards, but he doesn't. Imagine how far back he could take the ball if he simply straightened that back leg and rotated the hip! ****Only problem is he would lose speed. ****

>

Incorrect. It would make his windup from the stretch last too long, and he'd be easier to steal off of, but he would absolutely have added ability to create speed.

 

> Ultimately, as the Tiger video very perfectly put it **speed isn't the issue.** With that very restricted swing in that PVC contraption I can generate plenty of speed and so can anyone else in reasonable shape with reasonable size.

 

Perhaps. But I'd say the issue here is speed and health (and that you've misunderstood the Tiger video, as someone else pointed out above). I don't know why you'd want to leave speed on the table, since it has a huge correlation to handicap, and more importantly, restricting free motion absolutely will increase your chances for injury. If you've got an above average amount of flexibility in your thoracic spine, a la young Tiger, you can mask it for a while, but that's not something I'd want to mess with, so this is simply a warning - take it or leave it, it doesn't bother me one way or the other!

 

>

> The question is, if they restricted hip movement, knee straightening and all of those things and SIMPLIFIED the motion could they hit it more accurately with the same or similar power?

 

I would say this has to do with what the player in question could correctly sequence, and I'm guessing this is also why you hit it longer with a shorter swing. That doesn't mean a longer swing/more hip turn wouldn't give you more power if you could sequence it correctly though....and that goes back to what you are being taught.

 

>

> Rather than debate me on the topic, why don't you go the the range or some place with a hitting studio and try what I'm saying and tell me what happens?

 

I already know! As a former competitive +2.5, I've been down plenty of these roads, and that's why I chimed in. It may look like a lot of us are simply debating you, but in actuality, we're saying "Hey! Learn from the mistakes others have made before you! It'll save you time/energy!" You can do with all of the input you get in this thread what you will : )

 

Good luck OP!

[milesgiles]

> @grantc79 said:

> > @drewtaylor21 said:

>

> >

> > Next, since you brought up the idea that we know more about how the body works now, ask yourself this: If you don't allow the hips to rotate, what has to rotate more in order to attain a sufficiently long backswing? I'll tell you - it's the next segment above the hips, the lumbar spine. The lumbar spine is NOT meant to be a rotational segment of the body, it is designed for stability (largest, widest vertebrae). Again, my only suggestion is to think for yourself with this. Do you think it is wise to limit a (hip) joint that is designed for massive range of motion in exchange for more movement in a segment (lumbar spine) that is not designed for rotation?

> > Finally, you mentioned above the idea that creating a spring or coil adds to speed/power, and I'd agree. My confusion is why would you not then maximize everything that could coil in the backswing to unleash it in the downswing? Throwing and hitting a golf ball are VERY different physical motions, but take a look at one of your examples here, specifically at the trail hip joint - can you see the pretty significant amount of internal rotation that has taken place in the "backswing" (windup)? I'd say it looks pretty similar to our friend Bubba at the top of his backswing.... Do you think it would be wise to tell Aroldis to limit this rotation?

> >

>

> I think we aren't talking about the same things. I'm making the argument that sufficient power is able to be created without a huge shoulder turn and without straightening the leg or rotating the hip backwards. In fact, I actually generate more speed with a shorter swing and a restricted hip turn and bent right knee because it makes me load my right side better.

>

> Actually Aroldis does limit his rotation. He could rotate a lot more if he simply straightened his back leg and rotated his hip

>

> Rather than debate me on the topic, why don't you go the the range or some place with a hitting studio and try what I'm saying and tell me what happens?

 

> @grantc79 said:

> > @drewtaylor21 said:

>

> >

> > Next, since you brought up the idea that we know more about how the body works now, ask yourself this: If you don't allow the hips to rotate, what has to rotate more in order to attain a sufficiently long backswing? I'll tell you - it's the next segment above the hips, the lumbar spine. The lumbar spine is NOT meant to be a rotational segment of the body, it is designed for stability (largest, widest vertebrae). Again, my only suggestion is to think for yourself with this. Do you think it is wise to limit a (hip) joint that is designed for massive range of motion in exchange for more movement in a segment (lumbar spine) that is not designed for rotation?

> > Finally, you mentioned above the idea that creating a spring or coil adds to speed/power, and I'd agree. My confusion is why would you not then maximize everything that could coil in the backswing to unleash it in the downswing? Throwing and hitting a golf ball are VERY different physical motions, but take a look at one of your examples here, specifically at the trail hip joint - can you see the pretty significant amount of internal rotation that has taken place in the "backswing" (windup)? I'd say it looks pretty similar to our friend Bubba at the top of his backswing.... Do you think it would be wise to tell Aroldis to limit this rotation?

> >

>

> I think we aren't talking about the same things. I'm making the argument that sufficient power is able to be created without a huge shoulder turn and without straightening the leg or rotating the hip backwards. In fact, I actually generate more speed with a shorter swing and a restricted hip turn and bent right knee because it makes me load my right side better.

>

> Actually Aroldis does limit his rotation. He could rotate a lot more if he simply straightened his back leg and rotated his hip backwards, but he doesn't. Imagine how far back he could take the ball if he simply straightened that back leg and rotated the hip! Only problem is he would lose speed.

>

> Ultimately, as the Tiger video very perfectly put it speed isn't the issue. With that very restricted swing in that PVC contraption I can generate plenty of speed and so can anyone else in reasonable shape with reasonable size.

>

> The question is, if they restricted hip movement, knee straightening and all of those things and SIMPLIFIED the motion could they hit it more accurately with the same or similar power?

>

> Rather than debate me on the topic, why don't you go the the range or some place with a hitting studio and try what I'm saying and tell me what happens?

 

You are hitting 8 or 9 greens talking to guys who are probably hitting 12-13 greens, so I’m kind of of the opinion that the onus is on you to prove your method here..

 

 

[grantc79]

Realistically you have Bubba and Koepka and Moe Norman and the Wolff kid and everything in between

 

The point isn't what is your handicap and does that make you right because no one would train a new player to swing like that Wolff kid that won yesterday

 

The question is from a bio mechanical standpoint which is a more natural move for the body which leads to less injury and better golf

 

That is a better question for Drs than golfers

 

 

[Krt22]

> @grantc79 said:

> Realistically you have Bubba and Koepka and Moe Norman and the Wolff kid and everything in between

>

> The point isn't what is your handicap and does that make you right because no one would train a new player to swing like that Wolff kid that won yesterday

>

> The question is from a bio mechanical standpoint which is a more natural move for the body which leads to less injury and better golf

>

> That is a better question for Drs than golfers

>

>

 

What exactly is natural about restricting your turn? Does the term alone not imply it's not natural, since you actively need to try to stop it? From an injury standpoint, far less stress when you rotate correctly. Again look at post surgery Tiger.

 

 

[PowderedToastMan]

OP, I’m going to be totally honest. You aren’t a good golfer, you know nothing about the golf swing, and have no idea what you’re talking about. You’re coming on here and arguing about science (do you know what science is?) with people who have access to pressure plates, 3D data, etc and actually know how to decipher the data. Nothing you are saying makes sense. I think what annoys me the most is that you are trying to teach us like you actually have a clue. You don’t.

 

You don’t even know how to understand the Tiger video. It’s not about restricting the hip turn. And restricting hip turn doesn’t mean what you think it does. It doesn’t mean don’t turn the hips at all. That video is all about the fault of firing the hips way ahead of the arms on the DOWNSWING, which is exactly what you’re going to do with your fancy contraption that was worth less than garbage the second you put it together. FYI, your hips racing way ahead of your arms isn’t a good thing. You’ll find that out shortly when under any pressure you have a two way miss and have no idea where your ball is going to go.

 

This frustrates me so much because I’ve put my entire life into this game and learning how the golf swing actually works, like many others here. You quit your day job for 5 seconds to play golf a few hours a day and now you think you have everything figured out? Give me a break. I hope the golf gods have mercy on your soul. The next time you try to analyze a video of a pro’s swing, maybe analyze what’s going on in the background instead, like what colour the sky is or how many wings the bird has that’s flying by. You’ll probably determine that a bird can fly without its legs therefore you need no leg movement in your golf swing.

 

The last thing I’ll say is that your reply to Richard’s post was ridiculous. The guy gave you the best lesson on the mental game you’ll ever hear, and you were too thick skulled to hear a word of it (the Sam he was talking about, by the way, was Sam Snead, the guy you said isn’t relevant anymore). You thanked him for his two sentences on the short game. It’s like you can only read and see what you want to see. Tiger video being the PRIME example.

 

For everyone reading this, this is the toned down version of what I wanted to say. I can’t stand the combination of ignorance and arrogance.

[jut111]

☝️?

 

bravo.

 

 

 

[b.helts]

I think my favorite so far is “I don’t come over the top, I have an uptick. And I swing in to out, so.....”

 

Of course I’m paraphrasing.

[grantc79]

> @PowderedToastMan said:

> OP, I’m going to be totally honest. You aren’t a good golfer, you know nothing about the golf swing, and have no idea what you’re talking about. You’re coming on here and arguing about science (do you know what science is?) with people who have access to pressure plates, 3D data, etc and actually know how to decipher the data. Nothing you are saying makes sense. I think what annoys me the most is that you are trying to teach us like you actually have a clue. You don’t.

>

> You don’t even know how to understand the Tiger video. It’s not about restricting the hip turn. And restricting hip turn doesn’t mean what you think it does. It doesn’t mean don’t turn the hips at all. That video is all about the fault of firing the hips way ahead of the arms on the DOWNSWING, which is exactly what you’re going to do with your fancy contraption that was worth less than garbage the second you put it together. FYI, your hips racing way ahead of your arms isn’t a good thing. You’ll find that out shortly when under any pressure you have a two way miss and have no idea where your ball is going to go.

>

> This frustrates me so much because I’ve put my entire life into this game and learning how the golf swing actually works, like many others here. You quit your day job for 5 seconds to play golf a few hours a day and now you think you have everything figured out? Give me a break. I hope the golf gods have mercy on your soul. The next time you try to analyze a video of a pro’s swing, maybe analyze what’s going on in the background instead, like what colour the sky is or how many wings the bird has that’s flying by. You’ll probably determine that a bird can fly without its legs therefore you need no leg movement in your golf swing.

>

> The last thing I’ll say is that your reply to Richard’s post was ridiculous. The guy gave you the best lesson on the mental game you’ll ever hear, and you were too thick skulled to hear a word of it (the Sam he was talking about, by the way, was Sam Snead, the guy you said isn’t relevant anymore). You thanked him for his two sentences on the short game. It’s like you can only read and see what you want to see. Tiger video being the PRIME example.

>

> For everyone reading this, this is the toned down version of what I wanted to say. I can’t stand the combination of ignorance and arrogance.

 

Once again, I didn't create the post to get swing help from the internet all of you guys came to my rescue the only problem is I didn't need rescuing and now all of you are butt hurt because I'd rather take advice from the guys who have trained and continue to train PGA tour level talent.

 

Everyone came into the thread demanding to see down the line and face on videos so they could critique my swing and give me their great advice. I'd rather take advice from my coach who had a guy playing in the US Open last year.

 

I'm sure you are all great players but that doesn't make you a great coach, across all sports some of the worst coaches ever were hall of fame caliber players.

 

I welcome practice, course management, and other mental advice which was the purpose of the post.

 

At the end of the day both top 100 golf digest coaches near me are teaching exactly this and coach golfers far better than anyone on Golfwrx and have access to all the same technology you do and actually do this for a living........

 

 

[ebrasmus21]

> @PowderedToastMan said:

> OP, I’m going to be totally honest. You aren’t a good golfer, you know nothing about the golf swing, and have no idea what you’re talking about. You’re coming on here and arguing about science (do you know what science is?) with people who have access to pressure plates, 3D data, etc and actually know how to decipher the data. Nothing you are saying makes sense. I think what annoys me the most is that you are trying to teach us like you actually have a clue. You don’t.

>

> You don’t even know how to understand the Tiger video. It’s not about restricting the hip turn. And restricting hip turn doesn’t mean what you think it does. It doesn’t mean don’t turn the hips at all. That video is all about the fault of firing the hips way ahead of the arms on the DOWNSWING, which is exactly what you’re going to do with your fancy contraption that was worth less than garbage the second you put it together. FYI, your hips racing way ahead of your arms isn’t a good thing. You’ll find that out shortly when under any pressure you have a two way miss and have no idea where your ball is going to go.

>

> This frustrates me so much because I’ve put my entire life into this game and learning how the golf swing actually works, like many others here. You quit your day job for 5 seconds to play golf a few hours a day and now you think you have everything figured out? Give me a break. I hope the golf gods have mercy on your soul. The next time you try to analyze a video of a pro’s swing, maybe analyze what’s going on in the background instead, like what colour the sky is or how many wings the bird has that’s flying by. You’ll probably determine that a bird can fly without its legs therefore you need no leg movement in your golf swing.

>

> The last thing I’ll say is that your reply to Richard’s post was ridiculous. The guy gave you the best lesson on the mental game you’ll ever hear, and you were too thick skulled to hear a word of it (the Sam he was talking about, by the way, was Sam Snead, the guy you said isn’t relevant anymore). You thanked him for his two sentences on the short game. It’s like you can only read and see what you want to see. Tiger video being the PRIME example.

>

> For everyone reading this, this is the toned down version of what I wanted to say. I can’t stand the combination of ignorance and arrogance.

 

Sweet Jesus. This might be the finest response I’ve seen on this site, ever.

[hoselpalooza]

> @grantc79 said:

> Improved his swing sequence by limiting his lower body activity specifically his hip rotation. He wants less lower body activity, dramatically less.

 

this was never mentioned during that segment. nothing about restricting hip rotation on the backswing. butch mentioned tiger focused on the feeling of holding his hips during the first part of the downswing but delay would probably have been a better word. still, nothing about reducing overall rotation as far as i can tell.

 

you seem to be confusing this for less overall hip rotation when it's really just a timing/sequence change. but if i've missed something in the segment that proves otherwise please let me know.

[farmer]

Been a great troll so far, but the amusement value is wearing off. PowderedToast nailed it, drop the mic.

[northgolf]

> @grantc79 said:

> > @PowderedToastMan said:

> > OP, I’m going to be totally honest. You aren’t a good golfer, you know nothing about the golf swing, and have no idea what you’re talking about. You’re coming on here and arguing about science (do you know what science is?) with people who have access to pressure plates, 3D data, etc and actually know how to decipher the data. Nothing you are saying makes sense. I think what annoys me the most is that you are trying to teach us like you actually have a clue. You don’t.

> >

> > You don’t even know how to understand the Tiger video. It’s not about restricting the hip turn. And restricting hip turn doesn’t mean what you think it does. It doesn’t mean don’t turn the hips at all. That video is all about the fault of firing the hips way ahead of the arms on the DOWNSWING, which is exactly what you’re going to do with your fancy contraption that was worth less than garbage the second you put it together. FYI, your hips racing way ahead of your arms isn’t a good thing. You’ll find that out shortly when under any pressure you have a two way miss and have no idea where your ball is going to go.

> >

> > This frustrates me so much because I’ve put my entire life into this game and learning how the golf swing actually works, like many others here. You quit your day job for 5 seconds to play golf a few hours a day and now you think you have everything figured out? Give me a break. I hope the golf gods have mercy on your soul. The next time you try to analyze a video of a pro’s swing, maybe analyze what’s going on in the background instead, like what colour the sky is or how many wings the bird has that’s flying by. You’ll probably determine that a bird can fly without its legs therefore you need no leg movement in your golf swing.

> >

> > The last thing I’ll say is that your reply to Richard’s post was ridiculous. The guy gave you the best lesson on the mental game you’ll ever hear, and you were too thick skulled to hear a word of it (the Sam he was talking about, by the way, was Sam Snead, the guy you said isn’t relevant anymore). You thanked him for his two sentences on the short game. It’s like you can only read and see what you want to see. Tiger video being the PRIME example.

> >

> > For everyone reading this, this is the toned down version of what I wanted to say. I can’t stand the combination of ignorance and arrogance.

>

> Once again, I didn't create the post to get swing help from the internet all of you guys came to my rescue the only problem is I didn't need rescuing and now all of you are butt hurt because I'd rather take advice from the guys who have trained and continue to train PGA tour level talent.

>

> Everyone came into the thread demanding to see down the line and face on videos so they could critique my swing and give me their great advice. I'd rather take advice from my coach who had a guy playing in the US Open last year.

>

> I'm sure you are all great players but that doesn't make you a great coach, across all sports some of the worst coaches ever were hall of fame caliber players.

>

> I welcome practice, course management, and other mental advice which was the purpose of the post.

>

> At the end of the day both top 100 golf digest coaches near me are teaching exactly this and coach golfers far better than anyone on Golfwrx and have access to all the same technology you do and actually do this for a living........

>

>

 

I agree with you, you don't need rescuing. I, for one, look forward to your continued posting as you enjoy the fruit of your choices and become the tiger innate in you. However, please do not reveal the names of your two top 100 coaches - it would be a good check on the naysayers here to make them figure out who they are while your progress displays your teachers brilliance. The swing videos and scorecards would serve only to document your succes.

[slprince67]

it wouldnt be too hard if he is in New Orleans.....Brian Manzella would be one of them

[Krt22]

> @northgolf said:

> > @grantc79 said:

> > > @PowderedToastMan said:

> > > OP, I’m going to be totally honest. You aren’t a good golfer, you know nothing about the golf swing, and have no idea what you’re talking about. You’re coming on here and arguing about science (do you know what science is?) with people who have access to pressure plates, 3D data, etc and actually know how to decipher the data. Nothing you are saying makes sense. I think what annoys me the most is that you are trying to teach us like you actually have a clue. You don’t.

> > >

> > > You don’t even know how to understand the Tiger video. It’s not about restricting the hip turn. And restricting hip turn doesn’t mean what you think it does. It doesn’t mean don’t turn the hips at all. That video is all about the fault of firing the hips way ahead of the arms on the DOWNSWING, which is exactly what you’re going to do with your fancy contraption that was worth less than garbage the second you put it together. FYI, your hips racing way ahead of your arms isn’t a good thing. You’ll find that out shortly when under any pressure you have a two way miss and have no idea where your ball is going to go.

> > >

> > > This frustrates me so much because I’ve put my entire life into this game and learning how the golf swing actually works, like many others here. You quit your day job for 5 seconds to play golf a few hours a day and now you think you have everything figured out? Give me a break. I hope the golf gods have mercy on your soul. The next time you try to analyze a video of a pro’s swing, maybe analyze what’s going on in the background instead, like what colour the sky is or how many wings the bird has that’s flying by. You’ll probably determine that a bird can fly without its legs therefore you need no leg movement in your golf swing.

> > >

> > > The last thing I’ll say is that your reply to Richard’s post was ridiculous. The guy gave you the best lesson on the mental game you’ll ever hear, and you were too thick skulled to hear a word of it (the Sam he was talking about, by the way, was Sam Snead, the guy you said isn’t relevant anymore). You thanked him for his two sentences on the short game. It’s like you can only read and see what you want to see. Tiger video being the PRIME example.

> > >

> > > For everyone reading this, this is the toned down version of what I wanted to say. I can’t stand the combination of ignorance and arrogance.

> >

> > Once again, I didn't create the post to get swing help from the internet all of you guys came to my rescue the only problem is I didn't need rescuing and now all of you are butt hurt because I'd rather take advice from the guys who have trained and continue to train PGA tour level talent.

> >

> > Everyone came into the thread demanding to see down the line and face on videos so they could critique my swing and give me their great advice. I'd rather take advice from my coach who had a guy playing in the US Open last year.

> >

> > I'm sure you are all great players but that doesn't make you a great coach, across all sports some of the worst coaches ever were hall of fame caliber players.

> >

> > I welcome practice, course management, and other mental advice which was the purpose of the post.

> >

> > At the end of the day both top 100 golf digest coaches near me are teaching exactly this and coach golfers far better than anyone on Golfwrx and have access to all the same technology you do and actually do this for a living........

> >

> >

>

> I agree with you, you don't need rescuing. I, for one, look forward to your continued posting as you enjoy the fruit of your choices and become the tiger innate in you. However, please do not reveal the names of your two top 100 coaches - it would be a good check on the naysayers here to make them figure out who they are while your progress displays your teachers brilliance. The swing videos and scorecards would serve only to document your succes.

 

Brilliant!

 

With that being said, with how gravely the OP has misinterpreted the Tiger/Butch video, I really do wonder if there is a mismatch in what his TOP 100 Instructors are teaching and what he thinks they are teaching. I also wonder if they condone the contraption he has erected to ruin his lower back

[empa]

> @grantc79 said:

>

> Below is what we call an alcatraz.

> Basically it doesn't allow the hips to rotate back, forces you to load your right leg without straightening it, etc.

>

> My uptick (steepening of the shaft in my transition as opposed to flattening it) always came from over rotating my hips which got me to flat. This leads to me loading my right heel then driving to my left toes which crowds my body towards the ball which drives me towards my left foot toes which leads to snap hooks and blocks because I'm crowding the ball.

>

> This contraption forces me to load my entire right leg and right arch of my foot while keeping my butt on the PVC behind me, then drive laterally left instead of driving towards my toes and left.

>

>

>

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1Qf6zfT798

>

>

>

 

I knew this thread was worth the read when it led to something as ridiculous as a video inside a pvc cage on day 8.

The only thing more silly than the weird restricted freezer drill in the cage is the swing self-diagnosis. Just stop and try to get out of your own way.

If you trust your teacher, what are you doing trying to rationalize all these ramblings? Can't imagine what goes through your head when you stand over the ball.

[milesgiles]

My trollometer went off a while ago, but I have a long memory and I’ll bump the thread in a year if by chance the op forgets

[mukster]

Entertaining.

[malarijm]

> > Tony Finau is a perfect example of how you don't need a huge turn to generate speed.

>

> You did not answer my question, what improvement do you think you will see by making these changes? And are you built like BK or TF?

 

I am an 8.5 hc, 3 years into working seriously to improve my game. Sort of in a similar boat as OP having plenty of ball speed and scratch-esque range sessions, but working on the getting the ball in the hole when it matters part so I am very interested in this thread.

 

I would like to see OP's response to the question above and OP's commentary on how it has helped or will help his game. Easy enough to assume you are looking for a more compact/simple swing; however I think the interesting aspect of this is not the hip turn vs restricted discussion that has broken out, but rather if making a pretty radical technical swing change helps or hurts your scoring in the short and long run.

 

Swing can look like more like BK or Tony Finau or Matt Wolff - over time does yours begin to perform like their's do so that the handicap falls?

 

[jerebear21]

should contact iteach. a lot of off on your swing to be consistent enough to get to scratch. putting and short game really isn't your issue. good luck bud.

[drewtaylor21]

> @grantc79 said:

> Realistically you have Bubba and Koepka and Moe Norman and the Wolff kid and everything in between

>

> The point isn't what is your handicap and does that make you right because no one would train a new player to swing like that Wolff kid that won yesterday

>

> **The question is from a bio mechanical standpoint which is a more natural move for the body which leads to less injury and better golf

>

> That is a better question for Drs than golfers **

>

>

 

Funnily enough, that's exactly what my credentials are, and that was the framework from which I addressed your idea of hip restriction in the backswing and why it will put more stress on your lumbar spine. I have a sneaking suspicion that won't change your mind, however, but that's ok. Sometimes you just need to learn things yourself. Ordinarily I would also applaud the idea that you're only listening to your coach and not a bunch of internet warriors regarding the swing. However, you say you don't need rescuing and yet, your conceptual understanding of the swing says the exact opposite (my assumption is that these concepts are coming from your coach).

 

Your original post said that you wanted input from guys who have gone down this road before. Well, here it is: If you truly want to get to scratch, your swing needs a good deal of help. Practice routines and skills games might help cut 1-3 strokes if you're lucky. To actually be a functional scratch or better player, you're going to need much better swing fundamentals. If your coach is telling you to restrict your hips to fix your transition and early extension, I'd recommend finding a new coach. Again, not because I have better ideas, but go back to the pictures I posted of the guys who are the best at this game and ask yourself if what your coach is telling you lines up with what they are doing and what legends of the game have always done. I also think if you did some honest digging into what the majority of really successful coaches are teaching, it isn't lower body restriction and hasn't been in quite some time.

 

Course managment: buy the DECADE program from Scott Fawcett. It's excellent.

 

[Shades234]

 

> @drewtaylor21 said:

> > @grantc79 said:

> > Realistically you have Bubba and Koepka and Moe Norman and the Wolff kid and everything in between

> >

> > The point isn't what is your handicap and does that make you right because no one would train a new player to swing like that Wolff kid that won yesterday

> >

> > **The question is from a bio mechanical standpoint which is a more natural move for the body which leads to less injury and better golf

> >

> > That is a better question for Drs than golfers **

> >

> >

>

> Funnily enough, that's exactly what my credentials are, and that was the framework from which I addressed your idea of hip restriction in the backswing and why it will put more stress on your lumbar spine. I have a sneaking suspicion that won't change your mind, however, but that's ok. Sometimes you just need to learn things yourself. Ordinarily I would also applaud the idea that you're only listening to your coach and not a bunch of internet warriors regarding the swing. However, you say you don't need rescuing and yet, your conceptual understanding of the swing says the exact opposite (my assumption is that these concepts are coming from your coach).

>

> Your original post said that you wanted input from guys who have gone down this road before. Well, here it is: If you truly want to get to scratch, your swing needs a good deal of help. Practice routines and skills games might help cut 1-3 strokes if you're lucky. To actually be a functional scratch or better player, you're going to need much better swing fundamentals. If your coach is telling you to restrict your hips to fix your transition and early extension, I'd recommend finding a new coach. Again, not because I have better ideas, but go back to the pictures I posted of the guys who are the best at this game and ask yourself if what your coach is telling you lines up with what they are doing and what legends of the game have always done. I also think if you did some honest digging into what the majority of really successful coaches are teaching, it isn't lower body restriction and hasn't been in quite some time.

>

> Course managment: buy the DECADE program from Scott Fawcett. It's excellent.

>

 

Hey Drew, sorry to hijack your comment here, but what $ value would you put on DECADE if you had to? Looks like it's $200 for 6 months and then $20/mo recurring after that. Is it something you're still subscribed to? I've seen the program floated around a few times browsing this forum, but I'm just starting to look into it.

[grantc79]

> @drewtaylor21 said:

> > @grantc79 said:

> > Realistically you have Bubba and Koepka and Moe Norman and the Wolff kid and everything in between

> >

> > The point isn't what is your handicap and does that make you right because no one would train a new player to swing like that Wolff kid that won yesterday

> >

> > **The question is from a bio mechanical standpoint which is a more natural move for the body which leads to less injury and better golf

> >

> > That is a better question for Drs than golfers **

> >

> >

>

> Funnily enough, that's exactly what my credentials are, and that was the framework from which I addressed your idea of hip restriction in the backswing and why it will put more stress on your lumbar spine. I have a sneaking suspicion that won't change your mind, however, but that's ok. Sometimes you just need to learn things yourself. Ordinarily I would also applaud the idea that you're only listening to your coach and not a bunch of internet warriors regarding the swing. However, you say you don't need rescuing and yet, your conceptual understanding of the swing says the exact opposite (my assumption is that these concepts are coming from your coach).

>

> Your original post said that you wanted input from guys who have gone down this road before. Well, here it is: If you truly want to get to scratch, your swing needs a good deal of help. Practice routines and skills games might help cut 1-3 strokes if you're lucky. To actually be a functional scratch or better player, you're going to need much better swing fundamentals. If your coach is telling you to restrict your hips to fix your transition and early extension, I'd recommend finding a new coach. Again, not because I have better ideas, but go back to the pictures I posted of the guys who are the best at this game and ask yourself if what your coach is telling you lines up with what they are doing and what legends of the game have always done. I also think if you did some honest digging into what the majority of really successful coaches are teaching, it isn't lower body restriction and hasn't been in quite some time.

>

> Course managment: buy the DECADE program from Scott Fawcett. It's excellent.

>

 

You do realize, just because I'm not EXTERNALLY rotating my hips doesn't mean I am locking my hips in place and trying not to move them at all. There is such a thing as INTERNAL rotation.

 

If you look at Koepka for example he internally rotates into his right hip EXTREMELY well in his back swing. From address to top his right knee has barely moved backwards, his right hip has barely moved backwards, but his hips aren't LOCKED like all of you are suggesting that I am doing. He is INTERNALLY rotating INTO his hip.

 

If you look at the baseball pitcher, hockey player, and numerous other things it involves a ton of internal hip rotation not just spin your hips like many people think.

 

Where the debate will rage is just how hard and how much you should internally and externally rotate your left hip in the down swing.

 

 

 

 

[Krt22]

Uhh, with your hips in that torture device, they are definitely locked in place.

 

Oddly enough, the author of that video teaches /advocates the right leg straightening to drive the pivot. He makes no mention of this lower body action at all, essentially brooks hits it long and straight despite his restricted turn, not because of it.

[PowderedToastMan]

Ugh.

[drewtaylor21]

> @Shades234 said:

> Hey Drew, sorry to hijack your comment here, but what $ value would you put on DECADE if you had to? Looks like it's $200 for 6 months and then $20/mo recurring after that. Is it something you're still subscribed to? I've seen the program floated around a few times browsing this forum, but I'm just starting to look into it.

 

I think the price tag Scott has on it is perfectly appropriate. I'd say value is a pretty subjective thing, but for anyone who is serious about lowering their scores, there is absolutely value there because it works! In a nutshell, it provides a quantifiable way to select your target on each shot to maximize scoring potential. When I first purchased it, my scoring average was 72 and change. My first 5 rounds with DECADE resulted in a scoring average of 70 and change. That was very significant for me, so I'm a believer.

I no longer subscribe, but only because I don't get to play enough anymore. I still use the strategy for every shot and every round I play when I do get out, I'm just missing out on the stats tracking and some of the very cool updates I've seen Scott add (he's a good twitter/YouTube follow).

Hope that helps!