Green Reading Books and Slow Play Debate

[noodle3872]

> @grm24 said:

> > @OldTomMorris said:

> > > @KRAMER1997 said:

> > > > @musclefront said:

> > > > > @KRAMER1997 said:

> > > > > Luke Donald is a hack who needs to shut up and worry more about getting his tour card. Phil is FIGJAM (a legend) and can do and say whatever the f*ck he wants

> > > >

> > > > Anyone who’s been world number one isn’t a hack, please

> > >

> > > Hahaha Luke Donald was number 1 only cuz Tiger was hurt and Rory hadn't won any majors yet. He's a hack.

> >

> > **Embarrassingly bad take**

>

> Not surprising. He's good at it.

 

All excuses aside, Phil never has been ranked #1.

[aabcuue]

> @shanx said:

> Silly to blame a book for backing up play, especially if it helps these guys.

> I heard someone say they should ban the "pace off" from fairways. Someone else said that they should post playing times for players every round, and pair the slower players together for the first few rounds as to not penalize the guys that play faster.

>

> I really think peer pressure will have more of an impact than anything...

 

Highly doubt it peer pressure will stop any pro from using these books its too much of an advantage. I have a few and if you know where your on the green its hard to miss. Arrows show every break in a green and slope on the break. What isn't easy to read is grain effect, which changes and weather issues. Of course you stil have to hit the putt right.

[aabcuue]

> @OldTomMorris said:

> > @JaNelson38 said:

> > These guys also use the green books for landing area targets on the greens from the fairway. To take away the green books would probably make things SLOWER, not faster.

 

> Surely for this to be true the pace of play would have improved since these books were introduced. I don't have data to clarify that but it doesn't seem to be the case as far as I can tell.

 

Green books and measuring a course have been around for generations back to Jack's time and before Bobby Jones Back then caddies came out and measured the course during the practice round. What was done @ beginning is summarized in the "Legend of Bagger Vance" scene were bagger & the kid Hardy are putting in the dark.

 

Only after 70s when people like StrakaLine books and other commericalized books became available has the depth of information grown & been available to all. The full detail greens w/ arrows has been around more recently after y2k and hasn't changed pace of play.

 

Problem is people are looking @ a symptom not the cause. If a player is slow no matter what resources are available they will be slow.

Some players just are slow from having slow routine, JB not starting 5min routine until other player hits.

Even other parts of getting ready can be excruciating slow how they put on glove, multiple swings, sergio regrips and some stand over ball for minutes.

 

However after the sat blowup @TNT, I personally watched these slow player speedup dramatically. JB took 30sec to 1min usually per shot and was waking faster to get to the ball.

Bryson cut his routine down, beat the other player to the ball by yds usually. On 12th when he hit under a tree, after hitting a marshall, the scientist was practically in a slow jog to get to the ball. Arrived almost 30yds ahead of partner. Yes he did sign a ball for the marshall & apologized.

However he appeared to be uncomfortable w/ change during putting and missed some short ones. Seems blowback stems in part from higher scores.

[OldTomMorris]

> @aabcuue said:

> > @OldTomMorris said:

> > > @JaNelson38 said:

> > > These guys also use the green books for landing area targets on the greens from the fairway. To take away the green books would probably make things SLOWER, not faster.

>

> > Surely for this to be true the pace of play would have improved since these books were introduced. I don't have data to clarify that but it doesn't seem to be the case as far as I can tell.

>

> Green books and measuring a course have been around for generations back to Jack's time and before Bobby Jones Back then caddies came out and measured the course during the practice round. What was done @ beginning is summarized in the "Legend of Bagger Vance" scene were bagger & the kid Hardy are putting in the dark.

>

>

> Only after 70s when people like StrakaLine books and other commericalized books became available has the depth of information grown & been available to all. The full detail greens w/ arrows has been around more recently after y2k and hasn't changed pace of play.

 

I think most people when referring to green reading books mean the ones that have become common place (every tour player must have carrying them now) in recent times that have been derived using data from lasers etc. The ones with the incredibly high levels of detail.

I tend to believe the thinking that slow players are slow regardless.

[aabcuue]

> @QuigleyDU said:

> > @widow-maker said:

> > > @BeautifulNice said:

> > > Green reading books should be banned, regardless of slow play. Green reading is a skill. Green reading books replace skill with data unavailable to the average golfer. A guy who can't read greens well can use a green reading book to narrow the gap between himself and someone like Spieth. Spieth's skill is diminished. The pro and his caddy are free to map a green however they like (without laser technology) before the tournament.)

> >

> > The test of skill is getting less and less and is being replaced by.... The game is evolving in a peculiar way, especially at the professional level. Golf at the professional level is getting processed excessively. I guess it's the inevitable way that progress occurs in the modern era, but I'm not sure it's making for better golf viewing. Robotic players with similar skill sets is less compelling viewing. Shotmaking, feel, imagination, emotion... slowly being bled out of the game by technical mastery.

> >

Blame the new ball post 1998 the solid core changed the successful player from a shotmaker to Bomb n' Gouge (aka tiger) and rewarded distance vs. Shot shaping. Now "flighting the ball" (peak height) is the big thing on tour. Change your height to fit ball action on green and prevailent weather conditions.

 

> 1. green reading books are available to whoever wants to take the time to put one together.

Ok but are still unaffordable for most non-tour players. The full Straka Line book, the most common on PGA tour cost many hundreds. Last quote I had was $500.

There is another version the greens only book that is semi-affordable. Picked up the Straka Line greens only for Liberty National GC after the tournament for $50. Its worth every dime. Its computer and hand checked of measurements to the centimeter or better. See every lump, bump and slope.

Now its definitely the Indian not the arrow if you miss a putt.

[QuigleyDU]

> @aabcuue said:

> > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > @widow-maker said:

> > > > @BeautifulNice said:

> > > > Green reading books should be banned, regardless of slow play. Green reading is a skill. Green reading books replace skill with data unavailable to the average golfer. A guy who can't read greens well can use a green reading book to narrow the gap between himself and someone like Spieth. Spieth's skill is diminished. The pro and his caddy are free to map a green however they like (without laser technology) before the tournament. This is acceptable because the pro is using his own eyes and senses to understand how the green moves. Same with fairways or any other feature of the course. An amateur can do the same. Pros and amateurs should be playing the same game, and only skill should separate the two.

> > >

> > > I agree with this. The books have taken away another one of the skills of the game. With the ball that goes straighter and 50 yards further than it did 50 years ago, and the club that's perimeter weighted so the ball goes straight and have huge sweet spots... they've taken a lot of the skill already out of the game, and players will keep finding ways to take advantage.

> > >

> > > The test of skill is getting less and less and is being replaced by automatons that spend more time on physical fitness and technical adjustments than they do out on the golf course. The game is evolving in a peculiar way, especially at the professional level. Golf at the professional level is getting processed excessively. I guess it's the inevitable way that progress occurs in the modern era, but I'm not sure it's making for better golf viewing. Robotic players with similar skill sets is less compelling viewing. Shotmaking, feel, imagination, emotion... slowly being bled out of the game by technical mastery.

> > >

> > > The magic of the Ryder Cup is in the emotion that's generated and it's so palpable that viewers can feel it. But that's not what we get out on Tour anymore.

> >

> > 1. green reading books are available to whoever wants to take the time to put one together.

> Ok but still unaffordable for most non-tour players. The fullStraka Line book most common on tour cost many hundreds. Last quote I had was $500.

> There is another version the greens only book that is semi-affordable. Picked up the Straka Line greens only for Liberty National GC after the tournament for $50. Its worth every dime. Its computer and hand checked of measurements to the centimeter or better. See every lump, bump and slope.

> Now its definitely the Indian not the arrow if you miss a putt.

 

You can also take the time to make your own.

 

http://www.breakmaster.com/Charting_w_GoogleEarth.html

 

And no, you do not have to buy their expensive green reading device..

 

http://www.thegolftrainingaidstore.com/MOM-EEZ.html?utm_source=Google&utm_medium=Shopping

 

https://www.ebay.com/p/Voice-Caddie-Gc200-Digital-Green-Reader/26012032841?iid=283545534378&chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=283545534378&targetid=544793690131&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9030871&poi=&campaignid=1497774175&mkgroupid=59509629802&rlsatarget=aud-674438124417:pla-544793690131&abcId=1139476&merchantid=110949408&gclid=CjwKCAjwkenqBRBgEiwA-bZVtqbUWGg1ALLLorpbtjFVCOOZoyVKyYN6h1NjZ8Gdr3JoGYimTIcoQBoC9IkQAvD_BwE

 

https://shop.tjb-inc.com/sure-putt-golf-putting-green-reader---putting-training-aid-p1362.aspx?utm_medium=cse&utm_source=googlebase&Color%20of%20Sure%20Putt%20==Black%20-%20Red&gclid=CjwKCAjwkenqBRBgEiwA-bZVtkDAmbWzzIkF5JDSHwQuTisYqwOdB3-N-PQmJAfbePfPBsF-X1FYrxoCyiIQAvD_BwE

[aabcuue]

> @OldTomMorris said:

> > @OutBackHack said:

> > A common ground on greens books was met by the various tours this year. The format of the books changed to what we have now.

Change was only to size and somewhat reduce the level of detail. What remains is more than any player except tour pros would want.

 

> > On the PGA Tour the green mapping system is used in conjunction with shot link for pin locations now, so when they say the pin is 24 and 4 left...it's exactly 24 and 4 left. The PGA Tour is actually in bed with the producers of the greens books, it makes their life easier too and therefore there is no chance they're going away anytime soon.

> >

Not in bed but a mutual sharing of information. StrakaLine computer checks the greens and tell the PGA/USGA if there are any issues. Many a problem on course was prevented by the feedback.

 

> > ...and they don't slow down play for 99% of players.

> I'm sure DeChambeau was using the compass because he disputed the accuracy of the pin locations, he claims they aren't consistently precise.

 

No idea how imprecise a satellite GPS is when the tech comes out to multiple positions around the green before any group arrives and setup the shotlink before the practice round. A Similar procedure also done daily next to the likely landing areas off the fairway

(1or 2/hole depending on length & visibility from tee/green) & @tee to calibrate the Shotlink for tee shots on the hole.

 

The greens committee has 2 marks on each green for the reference point and hand measures with tape measure the actual distance. After a designated putter, on USGA, the past reps. have been PJ Boatwright and Mike Davis who would put to the hole to test the reaction and difficulty. Based on the results the next day a pin position sheet w/ measured distances and the local rules w/ pace of play requirements on each hole is freely available @starting hole. Fyi, the local rules w/ pace of play requirements sheet is usually also post near entrance/exit of the player locker room.

[OldTomMorris]

> @aabcuue said:

> > @OldTomMorris said:

> > > @OutBackHack said:

> > > A common ground on greens books was met by the various tours this year. The format of the books changed to what we have now.

> > > On the PGA Tour the green mapping system is used in conjunction with shot link for pin locations now, so when they say the pin is 24 and 4 left...it's exactly 24 and 4 left. The PGA Tour is actually in bed with the producers of the greens books, it makes their life easier too and therefore there is no chance they're going away anytime soon.

> > >

> > > ...and they don't slow down play for 99% of players.

> > I'm sure DeChambeau was using the compass because he disputed the accuracy of the pin locations, he claims they aren't consistently precise.

>

> No idea how imprecise a satellite GPS is when the tech comes out to multiple positions around the before any group arrives and setup the shotlink before the practice round. This procedure also done daily next to fairway & @tee to calibrate the Shotlink for tee shots on the hole.

>

> The greens committee has 2 marks on each green for the reference point and hand measures with tape measure the actual distance. After a designated putter, on USGA, the past reps. have been PJ Boatwright and Mike Davis who would put to the hole to test the reaction and difficulty. Based on the results the next day a pin position sheet and the local rules w/ pace of play requirements on each hole is freely available @starting hole. Fyi, the local rules w/ pace of play requirements sheet is usually also post near entrance/exit of the player locker room.

 

I think @OutBackHack clarified this and DeChambeau was using the compass when the position was calculated before they started the mapping system and shot link data.

[aabcuue]

> @smashdn said:

> > @JaNelson38 said:

> > These guys also use the green books for landing area targets on the greens from the fairway. To take away the green books would probably make things SLOWER, not faster.

> Can't the player and the caddie take the tee sheet and the hole location sheet for the day and in probably less than 30 minutes prior to the round determine all of the _planned_ landing areas? IMO they shouldn't be figuring out where to land the ball while they are playing the hole but before the round. Maybe I am ignorant of this but I assumed the player and the caddie talked through the game plan for the day ahead of the round.

 

> Sure there are variables such as wind and roll-out and lie that have to be taken into consideration but the biggest part of the decision making should be done right?

 

Sorry no one gets the pin position sheet until after checking with the tour starter @ the first hole for the player. The caddy then gets his bib w/ tournament name and player name.

 

The practice rounds are for determining landing areas. Fyi, tee positions change w/in and from different boxes based on possible weather conditions, difficulty of pin position and round type encouraged. All holes have a plan. 1 easy, 1 conservative -play to middle and 2 challenging -tucked near hazard (water, bunker, collection area) or edge of multi-level drop.

 

The practice rounds are for determining landing areas. Fyi, tee positions change w/in and from different boxes based on possible weather conditions, difficulty of pin position and round type encouraged. All holes have a plan. 1 easy, 1 conservative -play to middle and 2 challenging -tucked near hazard (water, bunker, collection area) or edge of multi-level drop.

 

This is why players take multiple shots per hole to test different situations and possible pin positions. What the player & caddy looks for are were are the safe misses and places to avoid/ where not to be short sided. This is all marked on the yardage book.

When the tournament occurs the caddy shows up early @first hole and starts marking the yardage book using the pin position sheet. Your late if not 15minutes early!

 

No yardage book and everything is ad hoc and much, much slower!

[aabcuue]

..

[aabcuue]

> @OldTomMorris said:

> > @aabcuue said:

> > > @OldTomMorris said:

> > > > @OutBackHack said:

> > > >

> I think @OutBackHack clarified this and DeChambeau was using the compass when the position was calculated before they started the mapping system and shot link data.

 

Sorry mapping & Shotlink have around for decades and way before Bryson was born. Started using preliminary Shotlink back in c.1996. It was literally a transit and laser pointer the utilities and surveyors would use. Green side was the same except it was slow to point.

 

Remember reading/listen Bryson saying the compass was also to get better slope % as that isn't on the yardage book or pin positions sheet.

[aabcuue]

> @QuigleyDU said:

> > @aabcuue said:

> > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > @widow-maker said:

> > > > > @BeautifulNice said:

> > > > > Green reading books should be banned, regardless of slow play. Green reading is a skill. Green reading books replace skill with data unavailable to the average golfer. A guy who can't read greens well can use a green reading book to narrow the gap between himself and someone like Spieth. Spieth's skill is diminished. The pro and his caddy are free to map a green however they like (without laser technology) before the tournament. This is acceptable because the pro is using his own eyes and senses to understand how the green moves. Same with fairways or any other feature of the course. An amateur can do the same. Pros and amateurs should be playing the same game, and only skill should separate the two.

> > > >

> > > > I agree with this. The books have taken away another one of the skills of the game. With the ball that goes straighter and 50 yards further than it did 50 years ago, and the club that's perimeter weighted so the ball goes straight and have huge sweet spots... they've taken a lot of the skill already out of the game, and players will keep finding ways to take advantage.

> > > >

> > > > The test of skill is getting less and less and is being replaced by automatons that spend more time on physical fitness and technical adjustments than they do out on the golf course. The game is evolving in a peculiar way, especially at the professional level. Golf at the professional level is getting processed excessively. I guess it's the inevitable way that progress occurs in the modern era, but I'm not sure it's making for better golf viewing. Robotic players with similar skill sets is less compelling viewing. Shotmaking, feel, imagination, emotion... slowly being bled out of the game by technical mastery.

> > > >

> > > > The magic of the Ryder Cup is in the emotion that's generated and it's so palpable that viewers can feel it. But that's not what we get out on Tour anymore.

> > >

> > > 1. green reading books are available to whoever wants to take the time to put one together.

> > Ok but still unaffordable for most non-tour players. The fullStraka Line book most common on tour cost many hundreds. Last quote I had was $500.

> > There is another version the greens only book that is semi-affordable. Picked up the Straka Line greens only for Liberty National GC after the tournament for $50. Its worth every dime. Its computer and hand checked of measurements to the centimeter or better. See every lump, bump and slope.

> > Now its definitely the Indian not the arrow if you miss a putt.

>

> You can also take the time to make your own.

>lhttp://www.breakmaster.com/Charting_w_GoogleEarth.html

 

> And no, you do not have to buy their expensive green reading device..

http://www.thegolftrainingaidstore.com/MOM-EEZ.html?utm_source=Google&utm_medium=Shopping

>

> https://www.ebay.com/p/Voice-Caddie-Gc200-Digital-Green-Reader/26012032841?iid=283545534378&chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=283545534378&targetid=544793690131&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9030871&poi=&campaignid=1497774175&mkgroupid=59509629802&rlsatarget=aud-674438124417:pla-544793690131&abcId=1139476&merchantid=110949408&gclid=CjwKCAjwkenqBRBgEiwA-bZVtqbUWGg1ALLLorpbtjFVCOOZoyVKyYN6h1NjZ8Gdr3JoGYimTIcoQBoC9IkQAvD_BwE

>

> https://shop.tjb-inc.com/sure-putt-golf-putting-green-reader---putting-training-aid-p1362.aspx?utm_medium=cse&utm_source=googlebase&Color%20of%20Sure%20Putt%20==Black%20-%20Red&gclid=CjwKCAjwkenqBRBgEiwA-bZVtkDAmbWzzIkF5JDSHwQuTisYqwOdB3-N-PQmJAfbePfPBsF-X1FYrxoCyiIQAvD_BwE

 

No where close to the same level of detail. After seeing the detail in the yardage book and greens books you'll know why it takes up to a month or more to map 1 course. Fyi, Straka Line and the Euro version also have inside tournament info ahead of time that you won't if you did it.

[QuigleyDU]

> @aabcuue said:

> > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > @aabcuue said:

> > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > @widow-maker said:

> > > > > > @BeautifulNice said:

> > > > > > Green reading books should be banned, regardless of slow play. Green reading is a skill. Green reading books replace skill with data unavailable to the average golfer. A guy who can't read greens well can use a green reading book to narrow the gap between himself and someone like Spieth. Spieth's skill is diminished. The pro and his caddy are free to map a green however they like (without laser technology) before the tournament. This is acceptable because the pro is using his own eyes and senses to understand how the green moves. Same with fairways or any other feature of the course. An amateur can do the same. Pros and amateurs should be playing the same game, and only skill should separate the two.

> > > > >

> > > > > I agree with this. The books have taken away another one of the skills of the game. With the ball that goes straighter and 50 yards further than it did 50 years ago, and the club that's perimeter weighted so the ball goes straight and have huge sweet spots... they've taken a lot of the skill already out of the game, and players will keep finding ways to take advantage.

> > > > >

> > > > > The test of skill is getting less and less and is being replaced by automatons that spend more time on physical fitness and technical adjustments than they do out on the golf course. The game is evolving in a peculiar way, especially at the professional level. Golf at the professional level is getting processed excessively. I guess it's the inevitable way that progress occurs in the modern era, but I'm not sure it's making for better golf viewing. Robotic players with similar skill sets is less compelling viewing. Shotmaking, feel, imagination, emotion... slowly being bled out of the game by technical mastery.

> > > > >

> > > > > The magic of the Ryder Cup is in the emotion that's generated and it's so palpable that viewers can feel it. But that's not what we get out on Tour anymore.

> > > >

> > > > 1. green reading books are available to whoever wants to take the time to put one together.

> > > Ok but still unaffordable for most non-tour players. The fullStraka Line book most common on tour cost many hundreds. Last quote I had was $500.

> > > There is another version the greens only book that is semi-affordable. Picked up the Straka Line greens only for Liberty National GC after the tournament for $50. Its worth every dime. Its computer and hand checked of measurements to the centimeter or better. See every lump, bump and slope.

> > > Now its definitely the Indian not the arrow if you miss a putt.

> >

> > You can also take the time to make your own.

> >lhttp://www.breakmaster.com/Charting_w_GoogleEarth.html

>

> > And no, you do not have to buy their expensive green reading device..

> http://www.thegolftrainingaidstore.com/MOM-EEZ.html?utm_source=Google&utm_medium=Shopping

> >

> > https://www.ebay.com/p/Voice-Caddie-Gc200-Digital-Green-Reader/26012032841?iid=283545534378&chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=283545534378&targetid=544793690131&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9030871&poi=&campaignid=1497774175&mkgroupid=59509629802&rlsatarget=aud-674438124417:pla-544793690131&abcId=1139476&merchantid=110949408&gclid=CjwKCAjwkenqBRBgEiwA-bZVtqbUWGg1ALLLorpbtjFVCOOZoyVKyYN6h1NjZ8Gdr3JoGYimTIcoQBoC9IkQAvD_BwE

> >

> > https://shop.tjb-inc.com/sure-putt-golf-putting-green-reader---putting-training-aid-p1362.aspx?utm_medium=cse&utm_source=googlebase&Color%20of%20Sure%20Putt%20==Black%20-%20Red&gclid=CjwKCAjwkenqBRBgEiwA-bZVtkDAmbWzzIkF5JDSHwQuTisYqwOdB3-N-PQmJAfbePfPBsF-X1FYrxoCyiIQAvD_BwE

>

> No where close to the same level of detail. After seeing the detail in the yardage book and greens books you'll know why it takes up to a month or more to map 1 course. Fyi, Straka Line and the Euro version also have inside tournament info ahead of time that you won't if you did it.

 

Probably true, but for you and me I am not sure the added info would make much difference. These guys make a lot of money and can afford to have more detail.

[OldTomMorris]

> @aabcuue said:

> > @OldTomMorris said:

> > > @aabcuue said:

> > > > @OldTomMorris said:

> > > > > @OutBackHack said:

> > > > >

> > I think @OutBackHack clarified this and DeChambeau was using the compass when the position was calculated before they started the mapping system and shot link data.

>

> Sorry mapping & Shotlink have around for decades and way before Bryson was born. Started using preliminary Shotlink back in c.1996. It was literally a transit and laser pointer the utilities and surveyors would use. Green side was the same except it was slow to point.

>

> Remember reading/listen Bryson saying the compass was also to get better slope % as that isn't on the yardage book or pin positions sheet.

 

Regardless of his reasons the point was the pin positions are now calculated in coordination with this data or thats what I'm lead to believe, they weren't previously.

[smashdn]

> @aabcuue said:

> No yardage book and everything is ad hoc and much, much slower!

 

I'm not saying don't have the book, all I am saying is have an idea of what you want to do so you turn your two minute discussion into a 20 second discussion at most.

 

Is it a fair statement that the jocks having these long pow-wows with their guy have not put in the appropriate level of work ahead of time together? (Unless of course their guy is woefully out of position on the hole.)

 

 

[aabcuue]

> @OldTomMorris said:

> > @aabcuue said:

> > > @OldTomMorris said:

> > > > @aabcuue said:

> > > > > @OldTomMorris said:

> > > > > > @OutBackHack said:

> Regardless of his reasons the point was the pin positions are now calculated in coordination with this data or thats what I'm lead to believe, they weren't previously.

 

Sorry the traveling tour teams in the shotlink semi trailers that have been around since before y2k would disagree. Shotlink only works by precisely gps linking tee shot to all the way through to the ball in the hole on every hole in conjuction w/ input from the walking scorer and rules official.

Every part of a hole tee and green is mapped/ calibrated daily as tee and pin positions change.

 

Shotlink w/ walking scorer is how players when they enter the scorers trailer/room are presented w/ separate printed score card. This record is compared vs. Competitors scorecard and Players own scorecard. Any issues are resolved w/ walking scorer and rules official in the room.

 

The only thing that has changed is the equipment used to map/ calibrate and how the vol shotlink function works.

Fyi, more Shotlink and Walking Scorer changes are in store as the greenside setup will be expanded to throughout a hole.

 

Take a tour of the shotlink setup and infrastructure sometime and its impossible not to be impressed. Have had a few over the years after working for the PGA, Shotlink committee and others.

[aabcuue]

> @QuigleyDU said:

> > @aabcuue said:

> > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > @aabcuue said:

> > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > > @widow-maker said:

> > > > > > > @BeautifulNice said:

> > > > > > >

> > No where close to the same level of detail. After seeing the detail in the yardage book and greens books you'll know why it takes up to a month or more to map 1 course. Fyi, Straka Line and the Euro version also have inside tournament info ahead of time that you won't if you did it.

>

> Probably true, but for you and me I am not sure the added info would make much difference. These guys make a lot of money and can afford to have more detail.

 

Yes, guess we don't need arrows showing direction every 1-2" apart on a green sometime 100s of sqft.

 

Fwiw, mapping by hand was done until shotlink preliminary started in mid 90s. Previously there was a position of an official mapping every shot greenside/ fairway w/ a runner bringing results to a tournament office/trailer every few groups.

[OutBackHack]

> @aabcuue said:

> > @smashdn said:

> > > @JaNelson38 said:

> > > These guys also use the green books for landing area targets on the greens from the fairway. To take away the green books would probably make things SLOWER, not faster.

> > Can't the player and the caddie take the tee sheet and the hole location sheet for the day and in probably less than 30 minutes prior to the round determine all of the _planned_ landing areas? IMO they shouldn't be figuring out where to land the ball while they are playing the hole but before the round. Maybe I am ignorant of this but I assumed the player and the caddie talked through the game plan for the day ahead of the round.

>

> > Sure there are variables such as wind and roll-out and lie that have to be taken into consideration but the biggest part of the decision making should be done right?

>

> Sorry no one gets the pin position sheet until after checking with the tour starter @ the first hole for the player. The caddy then gets his bib w/ tournament name and player name.

>

> The practice rounds are for determining landing areas. Fyi, tee positions change w/in and from different boxes based on possible weather conditions, difficulty of pin position and round type encouraged. All holes have a plan. 1 easy, 1 conservative -play to middle and 2 challenging -tucked near hazard (water, bunker, collection area) or edge of multi-level drop.

>

> The practice rounds are for determining landing areas. Fyi, tee positions change w/in and from different boxes based on possible weather conditions, difficulty of pin position and round type encouraged. All holes have a plan. 1 easy, 1 conservative -play to middle and 2 challenging -tucked near hazard (water, bunker, collection area) or edge of multi-level drop.

>

> This is why players take multiple shots per hole to test different situations and possible pin positions. What the player & caddy looks for are were are the safe misses and places to avoid/ where not to be short sided. This is all marked on the yardage book.

> When the tournament occurs the caddy shows up early @first hole and starts marking the yardage book using the pin position sheet. Your late if not 15minutes early!

>

> No yardage book and everything is ad hoc and much, much slower!

 

Your statement about getting pin sheets at the first hole "after checking with the starter" couldn't be more wrong. Hard to believe anything else you say after that.

[aabcuue]

> @OutBackHack said:

> > @aabcuue said:

> > > @smashdn said:

> > > > @JaNelson38 said:

> > > > These guys also use the green books for landing area targets on the greens from the fairway. To take away the green books would probably make things SLOWER, not faster.

> > > Can't the player and the caddie take the tee sheet and the hole location sheet for the day and in probably less than 30 minutes prior to the round determine all of the _planned_ landing areas? IMO they shouldn't be figuring out where to land the ball while they are playing the hole but before the round. Maybe I am ignorant of this but I assumed the player and the caddie talked through the game plan for the day ahead of the round.

> >

> > > Sure there are variables such as wind and roll-out and lie that have to be taken into consideration but the biggest part of the decision making should be done right?

> >

> > Sorry no one gets the pin position sheet until after checking with the tour starter @ the first hole for the player. The caddy then gets his bib w/ tournament name and player name.

> >

> > The practice rounds are for determining landing areas. Fyi, tee positions change w/in and from different boxes based on possible weather conditions, difficulty of pin position and round type encouraged. All holes have a plan. 1 easy, 1 conservative -play to middle and 2 challenging -tucked near hazard (water, bunker, collection area) or edge of multi-level drop.

> >

> > The practice rounds are for determining landing areas. Fyi, tee positions change w/in and from different boxes based on possible weather conditions, difficulty of pin position and round type encouraged. All holes have a plan. 1 easy, 1 conservative -play to middle and 2 challenging -tucked near hazard (water, bunker, collection area) or edge of multi-level drop.

> >

> > This is why players take multiple shots per hole to test different situations and possible pin positions. What the player & caddy looks for are were are the safe misses and places to avoid/ where not to be short sided. This is all marked on the yardage book.

> > When the tournament occurs the caddy shows up early @first hole and starts marking the yardage book using the pin position sheet. Your late if not 15minutes early!

> >

> > No yardage book and everything is ad hoc and much, much slower!

>

> Your statement about getting pin sheets at the first hole "after checking with the starter" couldn't be more wrong. Hard to believe anything else you say after that.

 

You definitely haven't been at the many PGA, LPGA & Sr. tournaments I've worked over the past decades. Or in the many convos I've had with caddies, starters and rules officials when pin positions sheets are available and/or taken.

Or convos with the PGA/USGA setup/ tournament staff before/during/after they are setting up the hole/pin positions what process they do to make/ distribute the daily pin position sheet.

[rangersgoalie]

Just FYI

Strakaline are not even close to the most used books on the PGA Tour

 

Mark Longs books are the standard

[rangersgoalie]

Hole location sheets ARE given out on first tee when players start

But locations are released earlier as well

[tiderider]

don't care if not using them slows play to a crawl ... get rid of them, completely ... period ... you're a pro ... learn to read greens ...

 

 

[imakaveli]

I would let them use books only during practice rounds to see ho can really read putts. Wouldn't hurt pace of play as well.

[OutBackHack]

> @aabcuue said:

> > @OutBackHack said:

> > > @aabcuue said:

> > > > @smashdn said:

> > > > > @JaNelson38 said:

> > > > > These guys also use the green books for landing area targets on the greens from the fairway. To take away the green books would probably make things SLOWER, not faster.

> > > > Can't the player and the caddie take the tee sheet and the hole location sheet for the day and in probably less than 30 minutes prior to the round determine all of the _planned_ landing areas? IMO they shouldn't be figuring out where to land the ball while they are playing the hole but before the round. Maybe I am ignorant of this but I assumed the player and the caddie talked through the game plan for the day ahead of the round.

> > >

> > > > Sure there are variables such as wind and roll-out and lie that have to be taken into consideration but the biggest part of the decision making should be done right?

> > >

> > > Sorry no one gets the pin position sheet until after checking with the tour starter @ the first hole for the player. The caddy then gets his bib w/ tournament name and player name.

> > >

> > > The practice rounds are for determining landing areas. Fyi, tee positions change w/in and from different boxes based on possible weather conditions, difficulty of pin position and round type encouraged. All holes have a plan. 1 easy, 1 conservative -play to middle and 2 challenging -tucked near hazard (water, bunker, collection area) or edge of multi-level drop.

> > >

> > > The practice rounds are for determining landing areas. Fyi, tee positions change w/in and from different boxes based on possible weather conditions, difficulty of pin position and round type encouraged. All holes have a plan. 1 easy, 1 conservative -play to middle and 2 challenging -tucked near hazard (water, bunker, collection area) or edge of multi-level drop.

> > >

> > > This is why players take multiple shots per hole to test different situations and possible pin positions. What the player & caddy looks for are were are the safe misses and places to avoid/ where not to be short sided. This is all marked on the yardage book.

> > > When the tournament occurs the caddy shows up early @first hole and starts marking the yardage book using the pin position sheet. Your late if not 15minutes early!

> > >

> > > No yardage book and everything is ad hoc and much, much slower!

> >

> > Your statement about getting pin sheets at the first hole "after checking with the starter" couldn't be more wrong. Hard to believe anything else you say after that.

>

> You definitely haven't been at the many PGA, LPGA & Sr. tournaments I've worked over the past decades. Or in the many convos I've had with caddies, starters and rules officials when pin positions sheets are available and/or taken.

> Or convos with the PGA/USGA setup/ tournament staff before/during/after they are setting up the hole/pin positions what process they do to make/ distribute the daily pin position sheet.

 

I am a caddie... On the PGA Tour.

I can download and print if I want to, the pin sheets from the PGA and Korn Ferry Tours the night before a given round.

I can have those pin sheets in my hand at least 12 hours before a given round starts.

 

Again, you don't know what you're talking about.

[OutBackHack]

 

[airjammer]

There shouldn’t be green reading books or pin position sheets. The players can watch early coverage or walk the course if they have a later tee time.

 

The great courses architects put in optical illusions to trick the players and I feel that is what separates the architects. Way too much math than feel being exhibited on the professional tour for me.

[Creedo77]

> @aabcuue said:

> > @smashdn said:

> > > @JaNelson38 said:

> > > These guys also use the green books for landing area targets on the greens from the fairway. To take away the green books would probably make things SLOWER, not faster.

> > Can't the player and the caddie take the tee sheet and the hole location sheet for the day and in probably less than 30 minutes prior to the round determine all of the _planned_ landing areas? IMO they shouldn't be figuring out where to land the ball while they are playing the hole but before the round. Maybe I am ignorant of this but I assumed the player and the caddie talked through the game plan for the day ahead of the round.

>

> > Sure there are variables such as wind and roll-out and lie that have to be taken into consideration but the biggest part of the decision making should be done right?

>

> Sorry no one gets the pin position sheet until after checking with the tour starter @ the first hole for the player. The caddy then gets his bib w/ tournament name and player name.

>

> The practice rounds are for determining landing areas. Fyi, tee positions change w/in and from different boxes based on possible weather conditions, difficulty of pin position and round type encouraged. All holes have a plan. 1 easy, 1 conservative -play to middle and 2 challenging -tucked near hazard (water, bunker, collection area) or edge of multi-level drop.

>

> The practice rounds are for determining landing areas. Fyi, tee positions change w/in and from different boxes based on possible weather conditions, difficulty of pin position and round type encouraged. All holes have a plan. 1 easy, 1 conservative -play to middle and 2 challenging -tucked near hazard (water, bunker, collection area) or edge of multi-level drop.

>

> This is why players take multiple shots per hole to test different situations and possible pin positions. What the player & caddy looks for are were are the safe misses and places to avoid/ where not to be short sided. This is all marked on the yardage book.

> When the tournament occurs the caddy shows up early @first hole and starts marking the yardage book using the pin position sheet. Your late if not 15minutes early!

>

> No yardage book and everything is ad hoc and much, much slower!

 

> @aabcuue said:

> > @OutBackHack said:

> > > @aabcuue said:

> > > > @smashdn said:

> > > > > @JaNelson38 said:

> > > > > These guys also use the green books for landing area targets on the greens from the fairway. To take away the green books would probably make things SLOWER, not faster.

> > > > Can't the player and the caddie take the tee sheet and the hole location sheet for the day and in probably less than 30 minutes prior to the round determine all of the _planned_ landing areas? IMO they shouldn't be figuring out where to land the ball while they are playing the hole but before the round. Maybe I am ignorant of this but I assumed the player and the caddie talked through the game plan for the day ahead of the round.

> > >

> > > > Sure there are variables such as wind and roll-out and lie that have to be taken into consideration but the biggest part of the decision making should be done right?

> > >

> > > Sorry no one gets the pin position sheet until after checking with the tour starter @ the first hole for the player. The caddy then gets his bib w/ tournament name and player name.

> > >

> > > The practice rounds are for determining landing areas. Fyi, tee positions change w/in and from different boxes based on possible weather conditions, difficulty of pin position and round type encouraged. All holes have a plan. 1 easy, 1 conservative -play to middle and 2 challenging -tucked near hazard (water, bunker, collection area) or edge of multi-level drop.

> > >

> > > The practice rounds are for determining landing areas. Fyi, tee positions change w/in and from different boxes based on possible weather conditions, difficulty of pin position and round type encouraged. All holes have a plan. 1 easy, 1 conservative -play to middle and 2 challenging -tucked near hazard (water, bunker, collection area) or edge of multi-level drop.

> > >

> > > This is why players take multiple shots per hole to test different situations and possible pin positions. What the player & caddy looks for are were are the safe misses and places to avoid/ where not to be short sided. This is all marked on the yardage book.

> > > When the tournament occurs the caddy shows up early @first hole and starts marking the yardage book using the pin position sheet. Your late if not 15minutes early!

> > >

> > > No yardage book and everything is ad hoc and much, much slower!

> >

> > Your statement about getting pin sheets at the first hole "after checking with the starter" couldn't be more wrong. Hard to believe anything else you say after that.

>

> You definitely haven't been at the many PGA, LPGA & Sr. tournaments I've worked over the past decades. Or in the many convos I've had with caddies, starters and rules officials when pin positions sheets are available and/or taken.

> Or convos with the PGA/USGA setup/ tournament staff before/during/after they are setting up the hole/pin positions what process they do to make/ distribute the daily pin position sheet.

 

We get pin location sheets from last years event too so that during practice rounds we can throw out disks for our players to putt to. Of course they're not the same every year but over 72 holes theres only so many places most courses can put pins.

 

Like Outback said we can get pin sheets the night before on the PGA tour links or caddie hq websites.

[OutBackHack]

> @Creedo77 said:

> > @aabcuue said:

> > > @smashdn said:

> > > > @JaNelson38 said:

> > > > These guys also use the green books for landing area targets on the greens from the fairway. To take away the green books would probably make things SLOWER, not faster.

> > > Can't the player and the caddie take the tee sheet and the hole location sheet for the day and in probably less than 30 minutes prior to the round determine all of the _planned_ landing areas? IMO they shouldn't be figuring out where to land the ball while they are playing the hole but before the round. Maybe I am ignorant of this but I assumed the player and the caddie talked through the game plan for the day ahead of the round.

> >

> > > Sure there are variables such as wind and roll-out and lie that have to be taken into consideration but the biggest part of the decision making should be done right?

> >

> > Sorry no one gets the pin position sheet until after checking with the tour starter @ the first hole for the player. The caddy then gets his bib w/ tournament name and player name.

> >

> > The practice rounds are for determining landing areas. Fyi, tee positions change w/in and from different boxes based on possible weather conditions, difficulty of pin position and round type encouraged. All holes have a plan. 1 easy, 1 conservative -play to middle and 2 challenging -tucked near hazard (water, bunker, collection area) or edge of multi-level drop.

> >

> > The practice rounds are for determining landing areas. Fyi, tee positions change w/in and from different boxes based on possible weather conditions, difficulty of pin position and round type encouraged. All holes have a plan. 1 easy, 1 conservative -play to middle and 2 challenging -tucked near hazard (water, bunker, collection area) or edge of multi-level drop.

> >

> > This is why players take multiple shots per hole to test different situations and possible pin positions. What the player & caddy looks for are were are the safe misses and places to avoid/ where not to be short sided. This is all marked on the yardage book.

> > When the tournament occurs the caddy shows up early @first hole and starts marking the yardage book using the pin position sheet. Your late if not 15minutes early!

> >

> > No yardage book and everything is ad hoc and much, much slower!

>

> > @aabcuue said:

> > > @OutBackHack said:

> > > > @aabcuue said:

> > > > > @smashdn said:

> > > > > > @JaNelson38 said:

> > > > > > These guys also use the green books for landing area targets on the greens from the fairway. To take away the green books would probably make things SLOWER, not faster.

> > > > > Can't the player and the caddie take the tee sheet and the hole location sheet for the day and in probably less than 30 minutes prior to the round determine all of the _planned_ landing areas? IMO they shouldn't be figuring out where to land the ball while they are playing the hole but before the round. Maybe I am ignorant of this but I assumed the player and the caddie talked through the game plan for the day ahead of the round.

> > > >

> > > > > Sure there are variables such as wind and roll-out and lie that have to be taken into consideration but the biggest part of the decision making should be done right?

> > > >

> > > > Sorry no one gets the pin position sheet until after checking with the tour starter @ the first hole for the player. The caddy then gets his bib w/ tournament name and player name.

> > > >

> > > > The practice rounds are for determining landing areas. Fyi, tee positions change w/in and from different boxes based on possible weather conditions, difficulty of pin position and round type encouraged. All holes have a plan. 1 easy, 1 conservative -play to middle and 2 challenging -tucked near hazard (water, bunker, collection area) or edge of multi-level drop.

> > > >

> > > > The practice rounds are for determining landing areas. Fyi, tee positions change w/in and from different boxes based on possible weather conditions, difficulty of pin position and round type encouraged. All holes have a plan. 1 easy, 1 conservative -play to middle and 2 challenging -tucked near hazard (water, bunker, collection area) or edge of multi-level drop.

> > > >

> > > > This is why players take multiple shots per hole to test different situations and possible pin positions. What the player & caddy looks for are were are the safe misses and places to avoid/ where not to be short sided. This is all marked on the yardage book.

> > > > When the tournament occurs the caddy shows up early @first hole and starts marking the yardage book using the pin position sheet. Your late if not 15minutes early!

> > > >

> > > > No yardage book and everything is ad hoc and much, much slower!

> > >

> > > Your statement about getting pin sheets at the first hole "after checking with the starter" couldn't be more wrong. Hard to believe anything else you say after that.

> >

> > You definitely haven't been at the many PGA, LPGA & Sr. tournaments I've worked over the past decades. Or in the many convos I've had with caddies, starters and rules officials when pin positions sheets are available and/or taken.

> > Or convos with the PGA/USGA setup/ tournament staff before/during/after they are setting up the hole/pin positions what process they do to make/ distribute the daily pin position sheet.

>

> We get pin location sheets from last years event too so that during practice rounds we can throw out disks for our players to putt to. Of course they're not the same every year but over 72 holes theres only so many places most courses can put pins.

>

> Like Outback said we can get pin sheets the night before on the PGA tour links or caddie hq websites.

 

Creedo coming thru with the assist! ?

Hopefully see you soon pal.

[imakaveli]

These are 2 of 4 pages dedicated to hole 16 at the last Italian Open. What could possibly slow down the pace of play?

 

[idrive]

Technically, I think the books slow down play to a point... but without the book(s) the player would possibly spend more time actually looking at the green from every possible angle so it is possible the books speed play up?

 

All that said I'm completely against them. The art of green reading should be part of the Professional game. No different than figuring yardage. I spent many a year as a youngster working on the perfect one yard step, finding a yardage marker and walking it off. Now it's pickup the rangefinder and shoot it.