New World Handicap System

[nsxguy]

I see this as kind of "dangerous" as it assumes that the poster used the exact (changing daily) CH

 

As far as entering scores I'm guessing that the vast majority will be doing so as they always did. Gross score, course, tees, etc.

We don't enter a course handicap now. Why would the poster have to enter a course handicap under the circumstances you suggest ?

[DaveLeeNC]

He would need his CH to calculate his net Stableford score. dave

[nsxguy]

For the comp and its results, sure, but not for entering his hole-by-hole scores.

Entering h-b-h, whether Stableford points or gross score, the system will, or should, calculate the CH itself.

Entering a total of Stableford points or gross score the system doesn't need CH - and it should assume the player knows what he's doing, just as before with ESC.

[DaveLeeNC]

Are you saying that he should assume no strokes and just enter his Stableford points using that assumption? If he gets a stroke on a hole, but doesn't know that, what are you proposing be done if you are only entering Stableford points?

dave

[nsxguy]

I'm confused yet again.

You told bladehunter, in post 1196, "Stableford and Maximum Score Stroke Play (see Rule 21.2) with a max of NDB is exactly the same thing. The WHS will even allow you to post Stableford points instead of adjusted 18 hole scores (USGA WHS Rule 4.1)."

If a guy gets, say 10 strokes (his CH,) for a Stableford and scores 40 points he is 4 under par (net) for the day. So if par is 71, he shot 77. This does NOT account for any strokes over net double bogey but it doesn't have to since NDB is what's used to calculate that day's index.

The system he is entering his score into KNOWS, or should know, the guy's CH for that day by the other attributes entered (course, tees, etc.). So just as you posted, Stableford points and NDB are the same thing and the system can easily calculate the guy's CH by itself - the player doesn't need to enter it.

 

Now in some cases that won't work. bladehunter's team game,,,,,, they might not even calculate each team member's Stableford points individually but they WILL calculate his gross score (hopefully using NDB) in order to enter his gross handicap score into the system; even h-b-h if they like.

And a "modified Stableford" would have to be done the same way as then Stableford points do NOT directly "convert".

 

[DaveLeeNC]

Only net Stableford scores will tell you the proper score to post.

Assume that Joe and Tom both have 36 CH handicaps on a course with a rating of par (72), slope of 113 (to simplify things). If you do not account for your CH, the only way that I can imagine to score Stableford on a hole is to ignore strokes (what else can you do?). So Joe goes out and double bogeys every hole. He ignores his strokes and dutifully posts his zero Stableford points (either by hole or total 18 holes). Note that he just shot his handicap on this round (differential of 36).

Tom has a bad day and shoots a 125. He also posts zero Stableford points.

How is the system to differentiate these two rounds unless you are posting net Stableford points?

dave

[hack2489]

Seems the "honesty" in the handicap systems comes back into balance a bit more when the competition organisation inputs the scores into the handicap system (or a ledger or whatever @bladehunter hunter and co do)...
Hmmm, funny how that's the way it's been here 'downunder' country wide forever. Maybe they don't trust us convicts enough to allow self entry into our handicap system?

[bladehunter]

No. Not 2 man as in best score per hole. 2 man as in combined individual scores. That’s how we have an individual and a team game. And no. We don’t use handicaps.

 

Im easily confused In this there’s no doubt. But. I can tell you I’m not confused in how we play each Saturday.

[bladehunter]

Lol. Didn’t know that. No wonder I keep getting told how honest the system is. Of course it is. No room not to be.

 

Hows the old saying go. Locks are to keep honest folks honest. ? Lol.

[bladehunter]

I guess. ( I truly don’t know ).

 

ill just continue to do what I do now. And post the actual score.

[nsxguy]

We don't seem to be on the same page,,,,,, although to be fair, going back over our posts, I can see where we both seem to be a bit confused about what the other is saying.

I was basically talking about entering one's Stableford score into the system and the system not needing to know the CH (i.e. the user doesn't need to enter it) to get the correct score for handicap purposes. I said one didn't need to know his CH while posting his Stableford points to the "system"; that the system can figure out the CH.

I never said one didn't need to know his CH while keeping score during the round and handing it in. Of course the players need to know CH to keep their scores and record them properly.

 

Wish you'd have used an easier number to work with though; like 10. With 36 strokes, 18 holes, etc. it really looks, well, " funny/strange/unreal/just wrong". LOL

Anyway, I'm not sure what "net" Stableford points are. Only Stableford points, which come from net scores on each hole.

Anyway(2), in your example, both players are DQ'd for handing in an incorrect score.

Why would Joe ignore his strokes ? He didn't make 0 points. He double bogeyed 18 holes. Getting 2 shots per hole (36 shots) he made a net PAR on every hole. 2 points X 18 = 36. He made 36 Stableford points and entering same, the system will (properly) record a 108. If he entered 0 Stableford points into the system the system would record a 144. The system can only take what it's given.

Tom ? Can't tell for sure but it sounds like he is posting the wrong score as well. Sounds like he made SOME points; probably about 19. For him to make 0 points he'd have to quadruple bogey (NET double bogey for 0 points) or worse on ALL 18 holes. That's at least 72 over par or 144, not 125.

So while not a certainty, since he shot a 125, it sounds like he made 19 points.

 

Then again, since you said "If you do not account for your CH, the only way that I can imagine to score Stableford on a hole is to ignore strokes (what else can you do?)". Since, as above, I never said one "ignore" their CH strokes while playing the round, I guess your examples are moot.

P.S. I left the examples above since I spent too much time writing them. LMAO

[bladehunter]

Guys. I’ve tried to read the conversation you’ve been having twice now. And in this idiots opinion , it’s a horrendously great example why we have the game we have on Saturday. And why it’s sooo simple.

 

The vast majority of players don’t want to have a headache while trying to figure out how to score a fair game.

not meaning that as a slight to either of you. Just an example of why the average joe cannot or doesn’t want to have to think that much.

[nsxguy]

You, and me too, and I'm guessing most others.

I play with a group that mixes it up a bit. Sometimes medal, sometimes team play and sometimes quota BUT it's a modified Stableford game so I couldn't post Stableford points anyway.

I ALWAYS keep my own (gross) score, I'm aware of NDB, so I guess I'll post gross as always.

[nsxguy]

So on the first hole, You make 4 and your partner makes 7. How many Stableford points did your team make ?

[bladehunter]

What’s par ? Assuming a par 4 ... 2 in our game.

[nsxguy]

So isn't that "better ball" ?

[bladehunter]

Nope. The 7 is s Triple bogey. Gets 0 points. The par is 2 points. So combined is 2.

The two players aren’t in the same group usually , it’s computer drawn. They compare cards after , and tally points. Then combine total points. It’s not in anyway hole by hole.

[DaveLeeNC]

@nsxguy This (to me) is not about how to turn in a proper competitive score. It is about (and ONLY about) how to post scores. As I understand what you are saying, a person who has no idea of what his/her CH is, could still post (somehow) Stableford points and (somehow) the system would be able to deduce the gross and/or net (NDB adjusted) scores from this information. I disagree with that premise and assume that I have properly stated your premise. Please correct it if I have not correctly stated your premise.
Take an example more to your liking. A golfer (who has no clue as to what his/her CH is for whatever reason) is playing and the only concern is how to properly post his/her score. If I understand what you are saying, this can be done. So assume that this golfer intends to post hole by hole Stableford scores because he was told he could do that without knowing his CH. In reality his CH is 10 today (he does not know that) and the first hole is a par 4 with a hole handicap # of 9. His gross golf score on that hole is 6.
What Stableford score does he post and how did he determine that (without knowing his CH)?
dave

[bladehunter]

if I may add a question ?

 

Im trying to follow along for my own knowledge.

are we saying you are supposed to post a net score now under the new system ?

And i myself would answer that last part by saying , I’d post the score i shot. Gross score. But I’m very very rarely picking up (because of a score higher than double) . So I get that isn’t going to work for all. But I don’t understand how imputing net scores will work for a handicap calculation. Is this part of the super secret algorithm that makes it all work?

[DaveLeeNC]

@bladehunter No one is saying that you post anything other than gross (adjusted for max hole scores) scores or Stableford points. IMHO the Stableford points must be based on your net scores on each hole. Others may differ on that.
But unless you plan on posting Stableford scores, that part of the discussion has no relevance to you (or most golfers). The new system (in the US) is pretty much like the old system regarding how differentials are calculated. The max score for a hole is a bit different.
dave

[nsxguy]

"This (to me) is not about how to turn in a proper competitive score. It is about (and ONLY about) how to post scores. As I understand what you are saying, a person who has no idea of what his/her CH is, could still post (somehow) Stableford points."

No, actually, that was not my premise. Maybe I wasn't clear or I misspoke. No. If he doesn't know his CH he cannot post a Stableford score, either hole-by-hole or points total since he doesn't know either.

As I said in Post 1211, "Of course the players need to know CH to keep their scores and record them properly" (Stableford of course).

He DOES however have his gross score BUT, (possibly) a slightly different problem, also related to one's CH). If he doesn't know how many or where his strokes fall he also can't adjust for any, IF ANY, strokes OVER net double bogey.

That said, if he didn't make any "natural" single hole scores over double bogey he CAN post his gross score because it WILL be accurate.

Recap (as I understand it). For posting purposes, if one does NOT know his course handicap for the round.Stableford Total - Nope, can't know the total.Stableford Hole-by-Hole - Nope, can't know the h-b-h pointsGross Total score - if no single hole is worse than double bogey, go ahead and post. It'll be correct. If ANY hole(s) is/are > double you won't know whether strokes should come off so do NOT post the score that way,,,,,,, HOWEVER,Gross Hole-by-hole - Shouldn't be a problem as the system SHOULD know your CH and SHOULD apply any adjustment(s)*.

Hope this solves our issue. (I didn't go through your example because I believe I have it covered above).

 

*Note: with so much back and forth I don't remember IF the system actually WILL do this. I'm SURE it CAN.

[Tocgolfer]

DaveLeeNC

the guy who had a 6 on his first hole with a stroke rating /handicap of 9 would get 6 for 1 point. If it was rated 11 or more he would have a wipe in Stableford.

[Newby]

When entering stableford points are they not entered without any handicap adjustment? What does 5.1a(ii) mean?

 

Edit: Just noticed CONGU Rule 5 it quite different to USGA Rule 5.

[DaveLeeNC]

The discussion (on my end) was about the need for a player to know his/her CH accurately if he is going to be posting only Stableford scores. I think this discussion is now over.

dave

ps. For reference, this part of the discussion started when I pointed out the 'extra risk' of posting only Stableford scores as it requires accurate knowledge of the (changing daily) CH #. If you are posting gross scores, getting your CH wrong by 1 only affects your posted score if you hit your hole max on one specific hole out of 18. If you are posting Stableford points and you get your CH wrong by 1, it will in most cases result in your posted score being off by 1.

[DaveLeeNC]

Newby, I am curious about what you are seeing in your version of the WHS document that would lead to your question.

dave

[Deceptively Short]

As usual Club Pro Guy has all the answers:-https://twitter.com/clubproguy/status/1211664346302038017?s=21

[bladehunter]

i legitimately watched that twice. First time for laughs. Second time to slow down and zoom and try to identify anything in the background I recognize.... that literally could have been shot by my club pro. So far I can’t link him to it. The ideas and explanations are uncanny.

[Newby]

The USGA version of 5.1a has no sub clauses

The CONGU version has 3

5.1a(i) is exactly the same as the only clause in USGS 5.1a Except CONGU prefaces it with "In Stroke Play Formats"

5.1a(ii) says

In Stableford FormatsScore differential = (113 / Slope Rating) x (par + Course Handicap - (points scored - 36) - Course Rating - PCC adjustment)

5.1a(iii) Is about Par/Bogey Formats

[CDLgolf]

I can only speak for myself, I'm not a member of a course so therefore don't have a GHIN hdcp. I only play in one event (the world am in MB) that requires a hdcp so I had to get one online through US hdcp.

I post all my scores there so thats how I get one. I have no idea if the other guys even have one cause its never brought up and not needed for these games.

The other issue is the guys at the courses only use the scores from their course during their fight. They don't care what you shoot anywhere else.

[rogolf]

Gosh, I can't wait for next week to pass and the introduction of the WHS - maybe then we will be discussing the major parts of it instead of extreme edges. The WHS is going to be implemented around the world (eventually). Hoorah!

Someone should plan on reviving this thread in three years so we can compare it to the what the real issues were.