New World Handicap System

[nsxguy]

Thanks. OK, so the adjustment calculation would change depending on how many scores are entered. That makes sense.

 

You do bring up an interesting point though. My old club played at the same muni every Sunday. Since, solely by familiarity with the golf course, the players' handicaps, and scores of course, were considerably lower than they might otherwise be. I wonder if that could adversely affect the PCC for the day (for everyone).

We had between 20-30 players on a Sunday. There is no way of telling how many more of the 200 or so players that day entered scores but,,,,,,,, also, there was, probably still is, a club at a different local muni that had a regular weekend attendance of 100-120 golfers, taking up more than 50% of available tee times for the day; again, a weekly occurrence.

[duffer987]

Ya I think the red-herring "weather" example sent folks down a rabbit hole that didn't need to exist, had they used another example.

Personally I would have liked them (maybe they did and I was too slow witted to see it) to use course maintenance/refurb as the example. Course makes a bunch of bunkers GUR while rebuilding them or moves up some tees while releveling them and voila for a couple weeks scores appreciably drop. Maybe I keep playing courses getting work done, but I see this as one of the more typical, along with 'Sunday pins'.

Heck they could have said, to alleviate score disparities brought about by Sunday pin syndrome, yadda yadda yadda...

[Newby]

Appendix G.f. Modification of Courses (i) Temporary Changes The Handicap Committee must notify the Authorized Association when temporary changes are being made to the golf course that may affect the Course Rating. The Authorized Association will determine whether scores made under such conditions are acceptable for handicap purposes, and whether the Course Rating and Slope Rating should be modified temporarily. 

[davep043]

If you look at this: Playing Conditions Calculation - World Handicap System: USGA | R&Ayou'll see that they did discuss course set up and conditioning as additional factors that might influence scoring on a given day. But the word-of-mouth transference of information has simplified the whole idea into "correcting for weather".

[duffer987]

Oh sure, I know that's in there. I've never seen it applied to the public courses I play on a regular basis, when they undertake maintenance programs that are going to impact scores... or at least I see them impacting my scores. The PCC looks like a way to account for that, when the courses do not.

[HatsForBats]

I don't think that is true at all. See post #1298. In the old system if the CR - CR was always used to calculate a playing handicap for a set of tee's, rather than just when players were playing against each other from different tee's, then you get a spread similar to the new CR - Par calculation. Would it really make any difference if a 0 index had 0 holes for strokes while a 11.4 index had 14 stroke holes (old system) versus the 0 getting 4 strokes and the 11.4 getting 18 strokes (new system). Either way there is a 14 stroke spread.

[ThinkingPlus]

You meant 96, not 101, correct? To get ~20 differential from each tee.

[DaveLeeNC]

Here it is https://www.pinehurst.com/golf/courses/no-7/ and an additional point.

This is not a 3 hole (or stroke) issue and I only see 3 holes that, were they the back tees, would have a different par (the back tees set par in most cases in the US). But it doesn't matter, as the strokes that you give up (or gain) in differing pars you lose when you adjust for differing pars in the final analysis. In this example to shoot the same 'quality' (same differential) scores you need to shoot 15 strokes different, and mucking around with par does not change the fact that the old system only recognizes 4 strokes difference.

dave

[DaveLeeNC]

No I did not.

Diff = (101-75.5)*113/143 = 20.15 (back tee)

Diff = (86-65.7)*113/116 = 19.78 (forward tees)

dave

[ThinkingPlus]

Yep. I missed the big slope difference. My bad.

[HatsForBats]

I just hope this eventually leads to groups/courses/league committees not being so afraid to have matches with players on different tees. I would love for that mentality to change. Maybe then a 'tee it forward' like program might actually stick.

[bladehunter]

Not arguing , but that’s also a funny observation I just made . My membership would play from the 150 markers if we’d let them. They all can’t wait to turn 60 and move up. ( local rule for net comps , and no i don’t know why ).

 

Tee it forward was a thing with them years ago it seems.

 

[DaveLeeNC]

TP, we are all subject to the occasional three putt

dave

[hack2489]

IMHO, it's more to do with the ego of the player than anything to do with the organisers.

[HatsForBats]

Not completely disagreeing but I will say I think many of them developed that ego because it was drilled into their heads that it was an unfair advantage to play the forward tees which was caused many times by organizers not making the proper adjustment. So players come away thinking they can only fairly play those tees once they reach a certain age. Bunk.

[hack2489]

Cool.
So, under the 'new' system the daily (or aka Course) Handicap is lower (by the difference between course rating and par).
I think this is the point @bladehunter was making in his post #1260.

[hack2489]

At least the new WHS takes the course rating AND slope into account so the daily (aka course) handicap is calculated correctly.

I still prefer to play the harder tees. I'm also not a senior ... yet. ;)

 

[hack2489]

Just doing some calc's for myself under the WHS using the same course per this post of mine earlier.

Back markers are rated a slope of 138 and course rating (aka scratch rating here in oz) 74, Par of 72.

My handicap 'index' (called GA here in Oz) is currently 15.2. Our calc changes to align with the WHS so that will increase to 16.4 (i.e. the 0.93 multiplier)

So, playing off the back markers my daily handicap (aka course handicap) was 20. We had no adjustment for the course rating vs par.

Under the WHS, my daily handicap will become 22.

Now, my goal is get down to a handicap index of 9 (or lower). So that works out to be a daily handicap of 13 (off the back markers) under the WHS. With a par of 72 that gives gives me a target of 85 off the stick.

I've shot 86 OTS from the back markers, twice. So, my goal of an index (aka GA) of 9 is a close reality. :)

But.

What a mind f%&k ... how can a golfer have a handicap of 9 but shoot 85 (13 over par) and "play to handicap" ???

 

 

 

 

[b.helts]

Even in the old days (2 days ago) lots of players were “scratch” averaging 76 or higher if they played a tough course.

how is this any different?

[HatsForBats]

Hack2489 said: What a mind f%&k ... how can a golfer have a handicap of 9 but shoot 85 (13 over par) and "play to handicap" ???

 

I don't understand the issue. It's a par 72 and a 9 INDEX is getting 13 Course/Tee Handicap strokes. They shoot 85 which is 13 over par which more rightly, IMO, reflects how they shot that day. They shot their number which is a good round. In the USA this past year 'shooting your number' didn't necessarily mean you had a good round. At my course shooting your number usually meant you were actually 2 strokes over your index. Not a bad round but more towards average than good.

[hack2489]

I understand how it works. The 'sysyem' does the correct thing by taking course difficulty into account.

My point is, if you have a handicap of, say, as in my example, 9. Shooting to that based of course par of 72, is an 80 OTS. Not an 85.

It also has me thinking if courses will start to produce scorecards to reflect the rating? So, in my example, the back marker par would be increased to 74.

[DaveLeeNC]

Here in the US given the situation you described the scorecards would continue to say par 72. And the tees that you play would clearly state a rating of 74.0 (if that is what it becomes in the new system) and slope of 138. Just like on the PGA Tour, even par means very different things on different courses.

dave

[Shilgy]

Maybe you don't understand how it works. A 9 "index" which you said you carry can be anywhere from a 5 to a 13(ballpark numbers) as a course handicap. Which is a thing example of how many folks really do not understand the old or new system. They confuse the index versus course handicap and what it references.

[Sawgrass]

This is true, and I'll add: If you "trust" the handicap system to give you a fair handicap, you should also trust that same system to give you a fair adjustment between different tees if that's what your competition authorizes. It's the same freakin' math.

[bladehunter]

I think what he’s saying is that course rating skews the index but not the CH. or skews them in opposite directions . or at any rate they never all seem to match up. As in if par meant anything , a 9 would be looking to shoot 80-81. Not 85.

Bhelts is also right. On a hard course you can average 76-77 and be around scratch. And flip it around to an easy rated course and you can average 72-73 and not be . And it’s no real indicator of ability. Some guys will shoot same everywhere. As in distance doesn’t effect score much. And rating seems to be tied more to distance than anything.

[Shilgy]

A 9 course handicap(CH) in 2020 “should” on his .good days shoot 9 over par. Does not matter if that is a par 61 5000 yard course or a par 72 course of 7600 yards with a course rating of 76.0. That is the math behind the new system. You always can compare your CH and what you shot that day to par.

 

You are correct that a scratch player- meaning one with a zero index can shoot 76 and shoot his handicap. If the course is rated at 76.0 and par is 72 the scratch index will have a 4 CH from those tees.

As to your assertion that some players always shoot the same no matter the course....I want to play them on an easy course for big stakes.

[hack2489]

I understand how it works.

In fact, the system works better under WHS for us in Oz because both slope and scratch rating are taken into account for the daily handicap.

My point is, what other sport has a playing filed with one measure +is course Par) and a rating that is different (ie course rating, slope rating)?

The length of a football field doesn't change.

The difficulty of a aerial ski jump doesn't change based on the amount of snow.

A baseball or cricket score isn't adjusted because a pitch is harder, longer, etc.

Look, don't get me wrong. I know WHY we HAVE to have slope rating and course rating. But, the mind f$&K that comes with it us my point.

If par was always course rating (so higher par for harder courses) a lot of the problem goes away. IMHO.

I know it won't change. I know how the WHS will work. I just think it's a mind f$__k for people, especially those outside the sport.

 

 

 

 

[hack2489]

Hang on... This bit:

"A 9 course handicap(CH) in 2020 “should” on his .good days shoot 9 over par. Does not matter if that is a par 61 5000 yard course or a par 72 course of 7600 yards with a course rating of 76.0"

Ah, at a harder course that same CH has to be higher! That's how the NEW WHS will work!

Think you've inter mixed CH and index in your thinking.

 

[Shilgy]

I’m comfortable with what I wrote... you are probably correct as well in your line of thinking though. I was not saying the 9 course handicap at both courses was the same guy. But a 9 CR- as I wrote- not a 9 index but a 9 CH will on his days he shoots to his handicap score 9 over par.

 

edited to add: my point is that with the new system we will know if a player played “well” that day just by knowing score and par. No more wondering if the so called good score was just the result of an easier course rating.

[Mudguard]

Because there are fixed measurements in golf. Generally par threes don't exceed a certain distance, par fours and fives. But they can play completely differently. So par will always be related to the physical distance of the hole.

You can't have a par 72 course because of it's length and just make it a par 74 because some holes have forced carries or narrow landing areas. That's why they have course ratings. Everyone will know of courses that are similar lengths but which one is more difficult.