New World Handicap System

[nsxguy]

"Read that quickly and I must agree with his logic in several places. Seems to have described what several of my seniors figured out this morning. That their CH was about to drop 2/3 shots."

Guess you haven't gotten to the other thread yet,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, can't hurt (much) to post it here as well.

 

Here is a REAL example from my “club”

GOLD TEES 5405 67.1/126 71

WHITE TEES 6051 69.5/130 71

PRE WHS HI * SLOPE/113 Adj. for white tees = 2 (69.5-67.1 rounded)

Gold player 18.5 index 20.6 21

White player 4.9 index 5.6 6 + 2 (tee adj.) = 8

Gold player gets 13 shots.

POST WHS HI * SLOPE/113 +CR-PAR

Gold player 18.5 index 16.6 17

White player 4.9 index 4.1  4

Gold player gets 13 shots.

 

Since ALL players on a given day will be calculated the same way the RELATIVE differences in handicaps, INCLUDING the former "tee adjustment", is accounted for with the new course handicap calculation. There MAY be single stroke difference one way or the other due to rounding, etc. but that should be the extent of the RELATIVE difference between ANY 2 players.

[bladehunter]

I saw it earlier. Haven’t had time to respond. I’m doing some calculations on my own course etc.

 

afterall. If they all stay the same. What’s the point in change ?

[cardia10]

Once again, instead of serving the bulk of its golfers, the USGA has decided it is more important to have a worldwide handicap system in the rare chance that 1% of the population plays matches against overseas competition. They continue to show they have outlived their usefulness.

[rogolf]

If we have worldwide Rules for this wonderful game (which we do), doesn't it make sense to have a worldwide handicapping system?

[BlackDiamondPar5]

Rules and handicap are two separate things. Even The Pope of Slope said the USGA compromises have made our handicap system less precise and that loss wasn't worth serving the needs of a small minority.https://www.golfdigest.com/story/voices-the-flaw-in-the-new-world-handicap-system-dean-knuth/amp

[bladehunter]

@nsxguy and anyone else interested.

Here are my calcs for my course using my current cap (1.7 before we went dark ) as an example.

Course specs - And CH old and new
71.6/129 Old-1.94 New - 1.54
69.1/125 Old-1.88 New - +1.01
70.0/123 Old - 1.85 new - + 0.14
66.4/120 old - 1.80. New - + 3.79
now we've established that I’m no expert. So if I’ve calculated incorrectly, or misunderstood. By all means let me know. And I’ll back up and punt. I’m not arguing. I’m just discussing. If these are correct. It’s not nearly same same. Even with the back tees being very close. It’s .05 from rounding down a full shot. That’s a lot.

[b.helts]

Nobody is saying (that I’ve seen) that your handicap is going to be the same. What is being said is that your handicap relative to other people’s handicaps (which will also change) will have little change.

 

so if before you were a 2 giving 2 a side to a six, now you might be a zero giving 2 a side to a 4.

 

or so......

[bladehunter]

I get that. I was responding more to nsxguy who gave a calculated example of his course where CH stayed the same For all tees.

 

Read again. I see what you mean. He did compare.

 

Ill have to run another guys cap and see if it pans out. Just trying to understand what my guys where saying this morning vs reality.

[nsxguy]

I guess the point is that comps run from different tee sets DON'T always adjust for the different tees. I ran into that exact situation a year ago and never went back.

Frankly, until about 3 years ago I never knew there was any such adjustment because I had NEVER played in a comp from different tees. 3 years ago I joined a rgoup that did play from different tees and my CH was 3 strokes higher and I went to the organizer and asked him why and he told me. That's when I first looked it up.The first one is correct so I'll assume you got the other 3 right as well. But you didn't include your course's PAR - looks like 72.

But the point is, now you should calculate a couple of your seniors, from their tee set, who will do all the complaining and see how many shots they'll get from you NOW. That's the point. It should be the same as, or within a single shot of, what they got LAST week.

[b.helts]

Either you’re talking about a different nsxguy post or we are reading his post completely different. and if that’s the case I’m pretty sure you got it dead wrong.

maybe it’s a different post.

[Roadking2003]

1% is a very high exaggeration.

[bladehunter]

See above edit posted same time you were writing this. I see now.

[Mudguard]

Ultimately the greater handicap variation is a good thing. 99% of the time, the Saturday or Mid Week comps are played of a particular tee, if you wanted to play forward, or back, you couldn't enter the comp obviously, as you weren't playing the same course.

Now the system is allowing players to play in the same competition, but choose their tee, either go forward and docked strokes, back and gain some. Why I like this is because my previous club, which was quite new, decided that the White Tee was going to be the club tee instead of the Blue (there is Black and two more forward tees). This meant for lower handicap players, we were hitting irons off every tee as there is so much trouble and very little reward.

I don't work all week just to hit my driver twice. So the club ran two competitions, of course the shorter course got more entries.

Now courses really don't have to do anything, players will pick the tees they want to play, still be able to enter the comp, and the handicaps will adjust properly. After all, if a course is rated ten shots harder from short to back, then the handicap should really alter by more than the previous system.

[KevCarter]

1) Your Course Handicap should not have a decimal point.

2) It appears you may have swapped the course rating in the second and third tee markers?

[bladehunter]

@nsxguy

here are comparisons for a guy who’s a 10.3. One of the chief front tee complainers.

Again
71.6/129 Old- 11.64 new-11.2
69.1/125 old-11.39 new - 8.49
70.0/123 old -11.21 New 9.21
66.4/120. Old - 10.93. New 5.33

again. If I’m reading correctly.

I was giving this fellow 9 shots last year and will give 3 this coming year. Or am I still missing something?

To explain. The 66.4 tees are the senior tees. The 70.0 tees are the ladies , and are longer in places that the senior tees. I personally think the ratings are all wrong or outdated Due to large trees , I’ve asked when it was rated last. No answer yet. But that’s another topic.

[b.helts]

Are you playing the back tees and he’s playing the senior tees?

[Mudguard]

What is your index vs chief complainer's? Surely this could be expressed by saying, ok, we're playing the same tees, using our index which calculates into your course handicap. I'm assuming the constant tweaking is because you're playing different tee sets. Which is still fixed by using the course rating difference and either adding or subtracting depends who wants to lose or gain.

[bladehunter]

Yes. I don’t often play net mind you. I’m just trying to understand so I can relay info. So I’m using me and him as examples

 

all of our over 60 play this tee in net comps everyone else plays either back or middle tee so loads of arguments over this

 

 

[b.helts]

So yeah. You’d be giving him 3. But I don’t think you’ve accounted for the change in tees in saying previously you’d be giving him 9.

 

but I didn’t actually check your math, so I could be wrong.

[bladehunter]

I thought the new setup accounted for the tees automatically ? Or no ?

[Mudguard]

Yes it does. I was just wondering the differences between the indexes. The bottom line is, until recently, golf wasn't really designed to have competitions played off mixed tees.

[bladehunter]

Example here is 1.7 vs 10.3.

 

I get the idea now. We will see if it works

But I can’t help but wonder how much is just random approximations x random approximations. And the reason I say that is that for the 5 years I’ve played this game , I’ve been drilled with how accurate and fair etc the handicap system is/was. Now it’s changing quite a bit. And time may well show us , it’s for the better. I have no idea. But if it does , it kind of throws a shadow over the old setup no ? As in a lot of shortcomings. And if it doesn’t , it kind of shows the man behind the curtain In a way that lets us know it’s all a big guess sold in an equitable box.

 

and that’s all me thinking out loud. Not really meaning to indict the system. I’m just going from one thing I didn’t trust to another that is unknown. And for whatever reason my natural tendency is to want to understand , no matter how little I use something. And this mornings grumblings by my members ramped up my want to know.

[bulls9999]

I was jus reading this list of explanations, and was curious on who determines what the 'playing conditions' are since the range of conditions will affect the impact of score on handicap.  Will the course pro be listing a "Today's Conditions = 3" on the pro shop door?  If it's left to each individual player at a club, what a mess that will be, everyone will select something different and yes, I know conditions can change from morning to afternoon, etc. 13 Major Changes Explained

Click for Complete PDF for all 13 Changes WHS detailsThe QUICK GUIDE

1- Course Rating and Slope Rating

2 – Number of Scores Required to Obtain a Handicap Index

3 – Basis of Handicap Index Calculation

4 – Limit on Upward Movement of a Handicap Index (Cap)

5 – Exceptional Score Reduction (ESR) 6 – Playing Conditions Calculation (PCC)

7 – Frequency of Handicap Index Updates

8 – Maximum Handicap Index

9 – Importance and Determination of Par

10 – Course Handicap Calculation and Application

11 – Playing Handicap Calculation and Application

12 – Maximum Hole Score for Handicap Purposes (Net Double Bogey)

13 – Treatment of Nine-Hole Scores

[b.helts]

The Playing Conditions Calculation does not take into account playing conditions at all.

what it does is it automatically takes the days scores and compares them to the rating(s) and if the average is significantly higher than usual, there may be an adjustment to that day’s rating for handicapping purposes.

it is said this will be very rare and the bump up or down will be small.

[rogolf]

Your desire to know - go to the USGA website and read, reread and understand the new system. Educate your club members on the new system and insist that it be used. If it is not, report your club to the handicapping authority and expect them to deal with it. If you are not satisfied, you may need to make a new decision about your choice of clubs. If it's not worth pursuing at your club, it's not worth complaining about it here.

Again, with all due respect.

[bladehunter]

Aha! Now that makes a little more sense. 5 from back tee to senior tee in old setup. So would be 4 now 3. Thank you.

so I’ll bet my seniors this morning didn’t remember to deduct the 5 in comparison either.

[mitchl]

Don't know about anyone else here, but today I took my first 8 max on a par 5 in years! I'd say "posted an 8", but there's no posting until Monday. (13 CH in 2019; 11 CH in 2020; 5th hardest hole)

Sitting alongside an older gentleman in my cart, who had picked up in the fairway, he was taking his normal 8 (he being a 27 in 2019, 23 in 2020) - I got to explain to him why he needed to take max at 9.. took him a minute, and he is a retired accountant, but I think he got it).

we probably will get adjusted and get that stroke back anyway, since it was 45 degrees, with mushy fairways - that's got to be low on the playing conditions scale.

[bladehunter]

Yea. I hear you on the bigger picture. But.. I’d be better just not participating. Even though there are over 10 clubs inside 30 minute drive from me , I don’t have time for an hour round trip each round. My home course is a minute and a half around the corner. This fact alone probably nets me 30 more rounds a year. At least.

 

As for research on the USga website.

I have a lot of trouble gleaning info from the site or app. It’s not the sites fault. It’s me. I’m sure an undiagnosed learning disorder. Things formatted similar to the USga site have always given me trouble. The USga app maybe the worst thing I’ve ever tried to navigate. Not the app itself. Just reading a rule with several subsets or appendages , especially if it mentions another rule or decision for reference etc. for whatever reason I find my self reading the same passage 8-10 times trying to comprehend all the angles or considerations.

point is. It’s not that I don’t research for myself. It’s that I don’t usually find answers. And that’s not me saying that the answers aren’t there.

[nsxguy]

@bladehunter You are REALLY gonna hate THIS !!!
"I thought the new setup accounted for the tees automatically ? Or no ?" Yes, the NEW formula DOES. The OLD one did NOT !!! That's the problem.71.6/129 Old-1.94 New - 1.54 69.1/125 Old-1.88 New - +1.01
70.0/123 Old - 1.85 new - + 0.14
66.4/120 old - 1.80. New - + 3.79

here are comparisons for a guy who’s a 10.3. One of the chief front tee complainers.

71.6/129 Old- 11.64 new-11.2
69.1/125 old-11.39 new - 8.49
70.0/123 old -11.21 New 9.2166.4/120. Old - 10.93. New 5.33 You said last year you were giving him 9 shots. The question is why ? If you look above at the SAME TEES YOU are always a CH of 2. He is 12 from the 71.6 rating, 11 from all the others. A difference of 10/9/9/9However,,,,,,,YOUR old CH (from the 71.6 rating) is 2HIS old CH (from the 71.6 rating) is 11A difference of 9 shots.HOWEVER, that is without ANY different tee rating adjustment. You are supposed to get 5 shots CLOSER to him by ADJUSTING for different tee sets. 71.6-66.4 = 5.2, rounded to 5.So, in LAST YEAR'S comps, adjusting for the different tee sets, either YOU should have gotten 5 MORE shots or HE should have gotten 5 LESS bringing the difference between the 2 of you to 4 shots, NOT 9.THIS year you give him 3 - in this case YOU got a 1 shot benefit from the new formula.

[Augster]

The different tee adjustment has always been a part of mixed tee comps and casual play. The only change is that your actual PH will be changed to reflect the CR-par for everyday play, and comps, off the same tees. Before, there was no adjustment.