New World Handicap System

[Sawgrass]

Nor was it here. Just slope and index before, now slope, index and CR-Par

[antip]

For us, that "Nope, no equity" comment has no relevance. In a very high percentage of club competition golf in Australia there is NO inequity issue because only one set of tees is played for that particular competition field.

[nsxguy]

hack said "Slope for each tee was slightly different, so there was SOME equity"

Seems to me he was referring to players playing from different tee sets. And if you look at the previous posts between hack and I you will see we were discussing different tee sets.

If they're playing from the same tees then of course there's no issue.

So how did one previously calculate the CH in Oz ?

[antip]

Yes, slope for each tee set is separately assessed, but within a single competition field on a single day, no-one has a choice of which tee set to play. For example, men's comp - we play white tee set for all normal competition play and medal days we play the blues (back markers), but everyone in the field is on the same set. The only exception to this is what we call "Medley" competitions when men's and women's fields join together, men from the regular whites and women from the reds. If the field sizes are small, they may be competing for one set of prizes so that is the situation that can bring potential inequities (along gender lines) from the no CR-par adjustment. But that is very much the exception.

The current process is HI is adjusted for slope only, not for any gap between CR and par - which of course is not an issue when the field is off a single set of tees. And most club golf, in my part of Oz at least, is Stableford format, so playing to handicap means something different from 36 points if the CR varies from par. The upcoming change here (supposedly latter part of January), to include CR-par in the formula will mean playing to handicap in Stableford will always mean 36 points but it will bring no change in equity from the status quo. If norms of competition play here move towards your models, that change would gain significance, but right now it is all rather a yawn.

[nsxguy]

So I take it you calculate CH with HI * slope / 113 then. Got it.

So is "everybody plays the same tees" an Australian Association "mandate" ? "Rule" ? Is it in the Handicapping Manual ? Or the Aussie Rules of Golf ? Custom ? That seniors, men and young studs can't, or never do, compete against each other in the same competition ? Or if the seniors enter they have to play the tips ?

I mean if someone want to organize a comp with mixed tees, is somebody going to stop them ?

Seems really strange.

Thanks

[rogolf]

"Everyone plays the same tees" is a Committee decision, part of the terms of competition. There are many competitions run this way, all around the world. If you don't want to play those tees, you don't need to enter.

[nsxguy]

You're probably right. So it's a Committee decision - makes sense. Still seems a bit weird that they don't want mixed tee comps.

I'm sure there are many comps run this way around the world,,,,,,,, just as I am sure there a "mixed" comps around the world.

Whatever,,,,, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[hack2489]

Correct. We were discussing different tees.
While 99% of the competitions here in Oz are as @antip has described (i.e. play from one tee) there is a slow burn discussion for allowing players to choose which tee they use during some weekly competitions (i.e. the usual Saturday competition). It has been slowly discussed at my home club and at that of a few mates clubs. I think with the inclusion of the CR-Par into the Daily Handicap calculation we may see a wider use of the different tees in each competition.

[nsxguy]

Thanks.

[hack2489]

As noted by @antip the 'uptake' of using different tees in a competition here is Australia has been slow.

Here's a link to an old (2013) draft notice from Golf Australia (our umbrella organisation), in which the changes from back in 2014 are discussed and with reference to the use of multiple tees in competition and 'how' the scores returned need to be adjusted for the difference in Course Rating: I think the 'complexity' of administration of the 'post round adjustment' (and the likely grumbling from players / members) has left most clubs running competitions with only one tee to be used.

 

[antip]

Er, strange? Not us, check the mirror. Joking.

Yes, we do the slope/113 thing. Gender aside, young, old and in-between studs (even non-studs) are all from the same tees for a normal club competition. This only changes if the competition itself is, say, a junior or senior competition, but again, the whole field uses the one set of (mens or womens) tees that have been set up for the day. That is the historical model here, it has always been that way, there is no state/national regulatory framework that causes it. So, explicitly or implicitly (for many clubs it is not even written down), this 'same tees' principle is part of the Terms of the Competition. If you play in Open tournaments, it is often explicit in the entry form which tees are to be used but if you just join another club's competition you get the guidance from other players or the Pro shop - 'what tees are we on?'

Anyone booking the course to run their own competitions can choose their own approach to issues like handicapping (these are almost never rounds that are officially posted) - but they are expected to use the specific set of mens or womens tees markers positioned for that day that they are pointed at.

In sum, everyone in a competition here uses the specific tees set for that competition. Maybe that changes over time with the aging of the golfing cohort, but right now I don't even know of any course that has a 'senior' set of tees.

[nsxguy]

You guys ain't strange ? Have you seen the animals on your continent ? LOL

hack posted a link to an interesting document from 5-6 years ago. It's marked as a "draft" so I don't know the actual status but it clearly lays out comps between players from different tee sets and mentions adjusting 'caps by the difference in course rating. The only thing I saw that concerns me is that they basically say to "adjust by course rating OR NOT, either way is fine". That seems to be a somewhat bizarre statement as the difference between CR/tees can easily be 3 shots or more.

Anyway, being on the other side of the world, Oz gets its news somewhat more slowly than the rest of the world so I guess you guys can be forgiven for not having dissimilar players playing in the same comp (more often ?). LOL

Later

[Mudguard]

It is the same in New Zealand, the governing body suggests changing the handicaps by the course rating if different tees are used. However as mentioned, it is rare to have club events off different tees. I alluded to it earlier in this thread, but the reason I'd looked into it was because my former course had the members' Saturday haggle off a very short tee, and as a consequence we had mid handicappers shooting par and having fifty stableford points. Off the next tee back, no one could crack forty points.

So we split the competition into two divisions, but ultimately it would be better to allow different tees (to encourage more members to enter) and adjust the handicaps properly.

[Hawkeye77]

A scene to be seen the world over on January 6!

 

[nsxguy]

LOL.

That's midnight tonight. Wonder how many folks will be clicking on the GHIN site at 12:01.

I know I will (if I remember).

[Hawkeye77]

Not me, sometime between 6-6:30 a.m. - unless I hear the ding of my phone if I get an email update from GHIN in the middle of the night.

[sui generis]

From Carolinas Golf Association:

"Monday, January 6, 2020 Transition Schedule

The tentative schedule for tomorrow is as follows:

5:00am - All pre-registered GHIN Admin Users will receive via email their invitations to create their credentials to gain access to the new Admin Portal. 

6:00am - Golfers can gain access to the new GHIN.com desktop dashboard, they can post scores using the new Score Posting Kiosk, or they can update their GHIN Mobile App and begin to post using their smartphones.

[CDLgolf]

US handicap says their site will be down till 1/7.

2 more days to wait.

[antip]

Indeed, Hack's link affirms that Golf Australia has for some time recognised that the historical model in Australia (and NZ also as Mudguard advises) of competitions playing from a single tee set is different to other places and IF Australia moves away from that, then the handicap systems on equity grounds should be adjusted. But while I am now a very active player again in my post-work senior years, including playing a range of open age and senior tournaments on plenty of courses other than my own club, I am yet to experience a single event where players of the same gender have a choice of tee sets. (Nor have I experienced any 'senior' set of tees, but that is a different subject.) Perhaps this change is inevitable over time, but we certainly aren't there yet. In any event, the WHS is going to add the CR-par adjustment here and I see no downside to that, even though it may get a grumble from some asking why are we tinkering.

 

[nsxguy]

US Handicap ? What's that ?

ghin.com

[nsxguy]

Fair enough.

Stay away from those flames !!!

[Augster]

New app is out and available for download on iPhone.

EDIT: Crap. “Unable to find golfer” on the app and the site. Later tomorrow maybe.

 

EDIT: I’m in and using the app. Have fun everyone.

[ThinkingPlus]

So far I am underwhelmed with the new GHIN mobile app. It auto updated on my Android phone. I had to manually update on my Android tablet. Tried to post on the tablet (scores from this weekend) and it was a big bag of fail. Neither h-b-h nor total score worked. It just locked up with "Loading" message on screen. So I tried my phone to see if things went better. Negative, ghost rider. App on the phone failed in the same way. Maybe I will try non-mobile through the website. Not optimistic, but it could be a mobile only issue.

[davep043]

Same experience for me, "old" stuff is available, but I can't get a score posting screen of any kind. No choice but to have patience, I suppose.

[duffer987]

Agreed. Can be 'underwhelmed' with not being able to post immediately, but it's hard to say anything beyond that. That said, I think it looks promising, since we cannot actual post yet obviously who knows.

The difference between losing two scores vs the .96, my index dropped from what would have been 7.1 to 6.9. Oh well, at least a weekend of crap golf should help redress that.

[davep043]

I was just forwarded an email our pro received from the VSGA Handicap Director. It merely said the USGA is experiencing problems (duh), is working on it, and we'll get more information when they know more. Patience is the order of the morning, I imagine that GHIN is seeing more traffic right now than at any other time in its history, as we all try to see what the new site is like.

[duffer987]

Ya this is likely the first time ever, the GHIN system has ever seen what anyone would call a spike or a surge in activity.

And the NCGA actually sent out a tweet, saying everyone is doing their darnedest to get it up and running today.

[CDLgolf]

Its an online handicap system. A way for people that don't belong to a club or have access to the GHIN system to get a handicap.

[MP4444]

Does anyone know of any official details regarding applying Net Double Bogey when only playing 9 holes?

 

If your new course handicap is 10, would you take a NDB of triple on only the holes on the played 9 with a handicap between 1-10?

The other option I could think of would be to divide the CH by 2 and round up if needed, then apply a NDB of triple on the 5 hardest holes on the played 9 in the example of CH=10.

 

The results between these methods would vary based on the distribution of hole difficulty between front and back.

 

 

[davep043]

Calculation of the handicap to be used for a 9-hole round is found in Section 6.1 here: Rules of HandicapingIt uses the Slope for that specific 9-holes, not the overall slope for the 18-hole course. Because of this, its possible that a player whose 18-hole Course Handicap is 10 might not get 5 strokes when playing one nine or the other. Once you get your Course Handicap for that 9, you apply those strokes where indicated, i.e. for the first 4 or 5 or 6 holes on that side.