New World Handicap System

[davep043]

I'm happy to help in any way that I can. Its melting quickly down here too, west of DC a ways, but a week in the desert will be a nice change of scenery.

[bulls9999]

OK, found out that all is working OK, except that for whatever reason, everyone at our club needs to be 're-activated' after the GHIN update and our club was being lazy by saying the system was still down, there's 'glitches', they haven't gotten it right.... but my tenacity checking this out with other clubs and the OGA said otherwise. My club finally acknowledged that "yes, it's working, but we have to get everyone re-activated …..over the next few days", ugh. I hate when people give you a false story just to keep you at bay.

[bladehunter]

Pretty easy honestly. The interface works. As in it auto moves cursor from hole to hole etc. so no Click each hole etc.

ill likely use hole by hole to collect the stats. But I do agree that it’s a choice too. So as far as I can tell they’ve done a good job.

[davep043]

Good to hear. That's the way it looked to me too, but I haven't had any real scores to input, so I was just fooling around. I imagine I'll use hole by hole myself whenever its possible.

[crazygolfnut]

Just tried to post hole by hole score for my home course just to see how it looks. Message "Hole by hole score posting in not available for this course/tee as Par or Stroke Index data is not available. Please post a total score. " I know it is off season and posting is not allowed but it looks like there is some more work that needs to be done. Also tried another course and same message. I then started a course in Nevada and it came up ok. I like the looks of the hole-by-hole scoring.

[davep043]

I think a number of State Associations are still working on various things, that data loading is the Association's job. I agree, I like the look of the hole-by-hole,even though I have no scores to post.

[duffer987]

Agreed. Nice and simple, definitely how I'll be entering. I didn't see (likely cause I didn't look whether you can go back in later and update hole-by-hole stats... hopefully you can.

The NCGA app has handled hole-by-hole (or lack there of) nicely. You don't get the option if the course isn't set up for it yet. Nice UX vs getting the error message in GHIN.

[jonnymc44]

As a player from CONGU-land, what is the calculation method for calculating my handicap index in anticipation of the WHS coming into effect later this year? Appreciate it's a while off being implemented just yet but I'm interested to see what it would be having had a good year on the course last year (my CONGU handicap is 5.6 and curious for comparison). I notice that my course has just been rated, par = 72, CR = 72.4 and slope 135 so I can do the calculations.

I've tried keeping up with the thread but I may have missed it along the way. Thanks for any help.

 

[Newby]

I assume you are in England but the process is the same in all CONGU countries. First of all the new handicaps will be calculated automatically by the system. Some weeks before the switch to WHS a preliminary run will be done and published to clubs and members so that you can see what your WHS would be based on the data at that point.

The process is that the system will go back through the CDH and use the WHS formula of the average of the best 8 of the last 20 to calculate your WHS cap. If you haven't got 20 scores in your history it will use the WHS initial handicap routine with as many scores you have in the CDH. By then all courses you have played will have a Course Rating and Slope.

Of course for your manual calcs you will have to take the CR and slope into account for when you have played off white tees or yellow tees or at a different course.

[jonnymc44]

Thanks @Newby. Would the new WHS calculation take into consideration Standard Scratch on the day? For example, 2 of my recent low rounds the CSS was +1 and +2 to the CSS, or is that completely negated and PCC takes precedence i?
So I have low rounds of 80 (CSS=74), 78, 74 (CSS=73), 78, 77 + 72 (CSS=71), average of the 6 = 76.5, since I only have 16 rounds posted, albeit quite good ones in the last 12 months! Would that equate to the course handicap?
To calculate HI, based on white tees, with above Slope/CR, since all under Saturday competition play -> HI = (CH- (CR-Par))*113/Slope = 3.4. Is that correct?

Edit: Fruedian slip with CSS and SS

[Newby]

Sorry, it is a bit more complicated than that.
1) You must go back to your 20th oldest score, even f that is more than 12 moths ago. If you haven't got 20 you go back to the oldest.
2) Staring with the oldest you tale one score at a time as if you were getting a handicap for the first tine.
3) Calculate the differential. ie (Slope Rating / 113 ) * (Gross Score - Course Rating)
4) Do this for the next 2 scores. Determine the lowest differential and subtract 2. That is your initial Handicap Index
5) Using the attached table
Number of score differentials in scoring record.doc progress through the rest of your scores in oldest first sequence.
6) That should give you your Index.

PS. This is my understanding of the process but there may be quirks that I am not aware of. I have no information at the moment re which the conversion will use CSS or SSS/CR. I suspect it will not make much difference but try it both ways. I would be interested to see how it turns out. As it happens I am awaiting clarification from England Golf and will confirm when I know.

[Deceptively Short]

@newby how many years will they go back to find your last 20 scores, I had heard only 2 years so does that mean 2018 and 2019?

[TwistedSister]

Just got my first Index under the new World system. Went down from 2.8 to 2.7 But the real interesting thing is from the Shorter tees we play my cap went down from 3 to 2. but from the Main tees my cap went from 3 to 4. so the difference is now 2 shots while before they were the same. Interesting. I have been catching flack form the guys for playing from the shorter tees for about a year now. So now they will give me TWO more shots. Remember be careful what you "b**ch" about!

[DaveLeeNC]

I am not sure that I understand. I assume that your Course Handicap from the short tees is now 2 and from the longer tees is now 4. Before it was 3 in both cases.

So if you are moving up, then you are now giving 2 strokes to the 2.7 index golfer who did not move up. In a sense the flack that you were receiving had a valid basis.

dave

[davep043]

This is almost certainly the influence of the newly added (CR-Par) calculation. Based on what you say, the CR from shorter tees is something like 1 less than par, and the CR for the longer tees is about 1 more than par. If you guys were playing from different tees last year, and you weren't adjusting for the difference in CR between tees (9-3c in the old Handicap Manual), you were getting too many strokes when you were on the shorter tees. The new system makes that calculation automatic, all the time.

[TwistedSister]

They are listed as a senior tees... I am 63 years old.

[Shilgy]

If your handicap went down and theirs up aren’t YOU givingthem two shots? Not the other way around?

[Shilgy]

That part is irrelevant. Under the old system you should have lowered your handicap the difference of the two tees course ratings. Not be the same cap from both. Under the new system the different tee adjustment is automatic. Your handicap from the up(aka senior) tee will give up two strokes compared to the stock tee the others are playing from.

[DaveLeeNC]

I am not sure what point is being made here. But neither your age or the 'label' associated with the tee has any effect on your course handicap as determined by the WHS. Under the old USGA system, you would have been giving up 2 strokes when you moved up.

dave

[davep043]

That's right, @dhacker56 . If you move up, and they stay back, you SHOULD have your handicap reduced. If the difference in Course Rating between the two tees is about 2 strokes, you should be reduced by 2 strokes. If you were 3 from the regular tees, as you say, when you move forward to the Senior tees you should play off 1 when playing someone from the regular tees.

[rogolf]

In our groups, it was less contentious to increase the handicaps of those playing from the higher CR tees rather than decrease the handicap of those playing from the lower CR tees. Same results, and I believe either was permitted by the Handicap Manual.

[TwistedSister]

Shilgy- I am going back to the Longer tees so they will quit griping at me. So NO my CAP goes up from 3 to 4 as oppsed to down from 3 to 2. The major difference in the course is one club except on the 5 par 3's. They go from 8-Pw to 5-7 for me. No big deal.

Dave - you are so right here. But I find it funny that I effectively get two more shots than I would have if I had stayed at the senior course. We'll see how it plays out $$ wise.

[Shilgy]

All things being equal it “should “ be a wash. You should average about two strokes higher from the longer tee rated at two over the shorter. However...as you noted a bit with club selection it may or may not be a wash. On mycourse the two tees are rated just one stroke apart but I tend to score more than one stroke better from the up tee. Reason being two,and sometimes all four, par fives are reachable for me from the nearer tee box.

[TwistedSister]

But I don't ... thats the rub. my strokes are on the greens. Don't putt like a youngster any longer. And only one par five is reachable for me from the front that is not from the back.

[Newby]

At least two. It depends how much data is in your CDH record.

[Deceptively Short]

Thanks for that, I assume therefore that this will mean that for some players it might be just a season but for others maybe 4 years or so.

[Newby]

In theory yes but I'm not sure how far back the CDH archives go. My record goes back to 2013.

[Sean2]

My HI remained unchanged. I don't see myself using the hole-by-hole feature as I need glasses to read and I don't want to be messing around with putting them on, taking them off after every hole.

[davep043]

You can always do it after the round is over. That's how I picture it working for my group of players, and it'll help if one guy reads while the other guy types in numbers. The number keypad on my phone screen is pretty large, and it moves to the next hole without prompting. I bet it won't take 20 seconds per player. Check @bladehunter 's post back there, #1503, he said it worked pretty well.

[Sean2]

Good thought, thank you for the heads up.