New World Handicap System

[cardia10]

 

[Celeras]

Does anybody have any 9 hole scores on their card? With WHS it is supposed to "set those aside", then combine them when you post two 9 hole scores. I am curious how those are displayed on the card, but all my 9's are outside my last 20.

[DaveLeeNC]

I have a 'saved' 9 hole score and it is listed at the bottom of the list of my most recent 20 scores. It is 'labeled' by being a different color. FWIW, it was a round played in 2020 and not a carry over round from 2019.

dave

[nsxguy]

Interesting. I wonder what date slot they'll give the combined 18 when you play another 9 hole "round"; the original date or the "completed" date.

[DaveLeeNC]

Rule 5.5 says that a 'waiting' 9 hole score is purged once it is older than your 20th oldest 18 hole score in your handicap record (rule 5.5). I assume, but have never found a reference to this, that the date of a combined score is the most recent of the two 9 hole scores.

dave

[bladehunter]

Yep I have a saved 9 hole score too that’s waiting to be paired up. And it’s a low one. Lol. Haven’t played 9 in a while. But if I add another low 9 to that it’s going to cause a landslide.

 

Like David it’s at the bottom and a different color.

[bladehunter]

So I’ve posted another score ( bad one 7 shots above my CH for the day ) on a wet and very windy day. It raised my index a full point. Lol. So I’ve seen a swing of 1.5 shots ( down and now back up ) from one day to the next after rounding. Because of one lower round and one higher. To me this is hilarious. I like the new app. But I’m thinking the quick fluctuations are a bit silly. And can’t be really reflective of ability.

[antip]

Here they stay in date order greyed out and the 1-20 counter skips that line, similar to if you bail from a round for sickness reasons - we don't yet have a process for entering less than complete rounds of 9 or 18.

[Shilgy]

It raised your index or your course handicap a whole stroke(not a tenth)? That seems unlikely but....what matters in the event you described was a exceptional low score going OFF your last 20. Not because of your one bad round. The only way your index could go down a whole stroke would be if the score that dropped was 10 strokes better(approximately) than the score that replaced it in your best 8.

 

Which raises a question.... without me having to calculate it .....in the past with it being best 10 of last 20 every stroke be terrible or worse resulted in a move of 0.1 on the index. So if you replaced a 76 that counted with a 74 that counted your index would move 0.2. With it being best 8 of 20 does that move 0.125 instead? 1/8th rather than 1/10th. That will promote somewhat more volatility.

[bladehunter]

Off my index. Not CH.

 

 

and as to which score it knocked off. That raises another of my gripes. There’s no way for me to know which score it knocked off. They don’t show as a “ next to fall off “ list like before. And. No scoring average to gauge it off of. As in for it to raise that fast you’d think my scoring average had to jump up 2-3 shots. Just no way to gauge it.

 

Whole stroke after rounding. As in 1.0 to 1.5. So rounds to 2.

[bladehunter]

@Shilgy

forgot to add. Score was 79. It may well have knocked off a 69-70. I don’t remember. There are a good mix of under par and 2-3 over par scores on my list. But. I would have assumed that the weather would now be taken into account. A 79 on this day was very equal to a 73-74 in calm sunshine at 70 degrees. Still not a great round. But not a huge glaring issue. It was muddy , 46degrees high and playing into a steady 15 mph wind that gusted plenty more than that. And that score literally came from a tee ball OB by 3 feet and a mudball I had come out of the rough and zip over wide into an unplayable lie just off the green. Those two swings lost 4 shots.

Anyway. Doesn’t matter. Just an observation. If a sandbagger wants to. 3-4 scores could pump them up 2-3 strokes in 3 days time as far as I can see. That makes for easy “ tournament prep “ for net events. Lol

[davep043]

That "sandbagger" can only have an effect if the scores being replaced are scores that are currently among the 8 best. To have a really significant influence, the out-going scores would have to be in the best 2 or 3 in the record. To replace the #8 score with the #9 score would have a pretty small effect. To replace a poor score with another poor score will have absolutely no effect. Outside of the daily adjustments, this "problem" really hasn't changed at all. Cheaters will still find ways to cheat, and the system will always have a hard time stopping them.

[bladehunter]

Sure, but the guys I’m talking about have a lot of low scores that have been entered by myself and other committee members. So there they are waiting for the right score to knock them off and these guys are smart enough to figure out that if they do it with a really high score their cap will raise overnight.

 

At least before it took them a minimum of 15 days but more likely one month to two months to raise their cap 2 to 3 shots, now they can do it in less than a week. Before we could continually try to manage them by making sure they posted their low scores as well

I’m just spotting new potential problems .

 

 

[davep043]

Simple, the Committee can reduce their handicap by a stroke or two by reducing all of their past 20 differentials, or can set the index to a specific value for a specific time frame. And I'm saying this for the others out there, I know your Committee has proven itself to be pretty much in the pocket of the cheaters, despite your best efforts.

[DaveLeeNC]

They don't need a 'really high score' to see a non-trivial bump (up) in index when their best score is about to drop off. Let's just say that their best differential is 9.0 and their 8th best is 14.0 while their 9th best is 15.0. So assume that the diff of 9.0 is rolling off with the next posting. It doesn't matter if they post a score with a diff of 16 or a diff of 36. Their next index is going to be (15-9)/8 strokes higher than before with either a new round posted with a diff of 16 or 36.

Now if the latest round posted in this scenario is 15.0 or better - different story.

dave

[nsxguy]

"Off my index. Not CH.and as to which score it knocked off. That raises another of my gripes. There’s no way for me to know which score it knocked off. They don’t show as a “ next to fall off “ list like before. And. No scoring average to gauge it off of. As in for it to raise that fast you’d think my scoring average had to jump up 2-3 shots. Just no way to gauge it."

 

Go to GHIN.COM. Click on the "STATS" tab. Under the "Filter by" menu you can click on "Past 12 months". You can count down from there to find the score that dropped off.

 

"Whole stroke after rounding. As in 1.0 to 1.5. So rounds to 2."

Now YOU seem to be talking about CH. LOL Your INDEX doesn't round up from 1.5 to 2.

[davep043]

Even easier, on both the web version and the app, select Stats, and select Revision Scores. The bottom score is the oldest, the one that comes off next. If it has an asterisk next to it, its one of the 8 best of the last 20. If it has no asterisk, the HI cannot go up when a new score is entered.

[nsxguy]

Yes, but that doesn't tell him the score that just dropped off - that was what he was originally complaining about.No. If these guys are as smart as you give them credit for all they had to do is wait for a week before the revision and then put in those 4 or 5 high scores. Just like NOW. The revision would come out the next day & voila, they're ready for the next net tournament. Certainly doesn't take months.

Not to mention that dave told you about the committee and peer review if such a pattern is spotted.

Then again, I seem to recall you telling us the committee would never do anything to these old time sandbagging members, right ?

So the only remedy, as far as you are concerned is to find another club.

Why am I getting an incredible case of "Deja vu all over again" ? LOL

[davep043]

You're right. I read the second sentence below, and missed the first:

"There’s no way for me to know which score it knocked off. They don’t show as a “ next to fall off “ list like before"

Even so, they do show enough scores that you can (very) easily determine what score will fall off next, and (not quite so easily) determine which score just did fall off.

[Imp]

Has anyone noticed any errors with data for any courses you play at: https://ncrdb.usga.org/ (This is the data used in the GHIN app for calculating the CH of the course you're playing)

I've noticed a handful of courses where the Pars were not accurate. Example: One course I saw has Tips at 70 Par, next tee down at 61 Par and next tee at 60 Par. Yet, the distance is only a few hundred yards between the tees. Thing is, the 9 hole CR front and back, if you add them up, get near 70, maybe 69. The card says Par 70 for all three.

This messes with the incorporation of Par in the calcs. I'm a 12.6 Index. From the Tips, CH calculates out, rightly, to 15 CH. Problem is, if I played the next set up, shaving off 300 yards or so, it goes UP to 22 (because of the par being incorrectly listed). I can't imagine getting 7 strokes over someone playing the tips.

Same thing on another course, the Pars listed in the system don't match what's on the cards provided by the course.

--kC

[bladehunter]

Lol. I see what you’re saying. But In practicality your useable cap is the CH. nowhere do you play off handicap alone right ? So for me. ( read -ME) ch and actual handicap usually ride hand in hand. But today My CH for today stays at 1 somehow. And my actual handicap went up from 1.0 to 1.5. Which rounds in my mind to 2. Not for any purpose but my mind. Mind you. Lol

But I do wonder why my handicap moved up and the CH stayed exactly same ? Weird to me.

 

As for ease of finding info. Thanks. I’ll check it out on my break in a few. It’s about time for some tea and crumpets. I’ve been out in the cold all day.

[bladehunter]

Absolutely, I can call the USga or cga and get their handicaps killed if I speak loud enough I bet. But where does that leave me ? Point is it Appears to ME that they’ve made it easier to game the system , not harder , by having these real time ( if you will ) updates of handicap.

The scenario nsx lays out of holding scores and posting just before a revision would be super easy to spot and very easy to reverse or police. Why ? You can’t play 4 bad rounds in one day. Lol. And we’d know how many times he’d played the week before etc. where as you could calculate and post 1 terrible round every 3-4 days for a couple weeks before a net event and there would be zero way for me to do anything about that. It gives plausible deniability in my opinion.

[davep043]

I believe that in a number of regions, GHIN somehow calculated "hole par" based on yardage of the hole. A course with 5 sets of tees might have a different "par" for each set of tees. The individual courses needed to review the information on GHIN and provide corrections to their state or regional Associations who then corrected the information within GHIN. If your course is still messed up, you should probably contact the pro shop and ask them to update the Association.

[DaveLeeNC]

As a general rule, a half stroke change in your index will result in a change in your CH (smallest change possible being 1) about half the time. The higher the slope the more likely that a half stroke index change will result in a full stroke CH change.

dave

[bladehunter]

I do see the list of scores now. And thanks for the asterisk explanation. I’d have never know what that meant. There’s no key telling you. Things like that list aren’t obvious to me at first glance. Anyway.

so my 3 oldest scores have asterisks by them. And range from 70-73. So looks like I’ll be a 5-6 handicap by the end of the month. Lol.

[Shilgy]

And you’ll get to be called a sandbagger!

[bladehunter]

Lol. Yep. Except it will never last until i actually use it again this summer.

[nsxguy]

"But I do wonder why my handicap moved up and the CH stayed exactly same ? Weird to me."

Do the CH calculation.

I assume you were a 1.0 the week before and now a 1.5, yes ? CR is 71.6 and slope is 129 ? I am assuming par is 72, yes ?

In that case, if I did the math correctly, the CH for both indices is 1.

[Imp]

USGA: "So, we're going to use par in CH calcs and must be used when calculating NDB, but hey, let's guess at what par is for lots of courses instead of going with actual numbers. "

Yoda: "Sense, it does not make."

[davep043]

You're right, and the situation is being corrected. At the very least, it forced many courses to take a good look at those 370-yard par-5s (from the front men's tees) to see if those holes really played as par-5s.