New World Handicap System

[bladehunter]

Yes. I see that now.

 

still don’t think I’m going to be a fan of the daily ability for the cap to change. But we shall see. I do like the stats. And I do like the hole by hole posting. I’m not a fan of some of the stat layout on the app. Which is the only place I’ll be looking at it. It’s a bit jumbled to my eye.

[Shilgy]

I am getting good as misremembering but I seem to recall you looking forward to daily updates because you felt guys were ramping up their game for an event , say on the 14th of the month, playing good rounds the 1st through 13th that ere not part of the events handicap for the player.

[bladehunter]

I don’t specifically recall saying that. But. I won’t go as far as to deny it , as I could have thought that at the time. But now in practice my mind is opposite.

 

But not mostly because of sandbaggers because I don’t like the idea of a handicap that fluid. As in it hurts my ocd brain. Someone asks joe. “ hey joe what handicap are you these days “. Joe replies. “ well. I was a 6 last Wednesday and a 3 on Saturday. Today I’m a 4.5 “. Seems very much like Russian roulette. Depending on which day you play the guy you may beat him or get pummeled.

[rogolf]

Terminology - any number with one place of decimal, eg, 1.5, is not your "handicap", it is your "handicap index", or HI, which is used to calculate your "course handicap", or CH, which is always a whole number (no decimal). If you don't use the correct terminology, everyone must assume what you are talking about. Assumptions can be wrong.

[Colin L]

This is just a question, not a challenge. What sort of score differentials could result in a 3 stroke swing in HI in the space of a few days?

[davep043]

I'd say that this level of fluidity (and I think you're exaggerating a bit) would mean that when you catch a golfer on a hot streak, his handicap will reflect that hot streak. Under the old system, if you were playing him on the 14th, and his last update was 2 weeks back, he could have 2 weeks of great scores that were completely ignored by his then-current handicap. And by using the best 8 scores instead of the best 10, the handicap will respond quicker to hot streaks, and slower (in general) to streaks of poor play.

[James the Hogan Fan]

I've been wondering, reading about all this sandbagging, why do these people bother playing rounds? Get a group of 2-4 to attest each other, and just make up rounds. Or "I went to the course across town and the guy I was paired up with signed it" etc. That would seem like a great deal less work, and they could make up whatever numbers they needed to suit them. Wouldn't even have to play golf and their cap would be whatever they wanted it to be.

[bladehunter]

Lol. Well please explain to me the difference between handicap and handicap index. Minus the obvious addition of the word index , which I think is understood by anyone who even vaguely gets the idea of a handicapped system ( say me for Instance ) . The system works off an idea of indexing of scores in a way that indicate skill level and allows those levels to be compared to other players and compensated for with further calculations . ( in theory ).

How does my slang version, which is more commonly used than the full “ indexed” version, confuse anyone ?

 

I agree that HI is the Kings English version. But that doesn’t make the point that I confused nsx with the term. In no way does handicap lead anyone to think CH. when someone mentions a player’s handicap in conversation it is never CH as that changes by course about to be played.

[bladehunter]

Yes. You got me. Hyperbole. As usual. Change it to half shot up half shot down and whole shot back up. Still same opinion. It moves too easily. And I’m proving that those fluctuations are very easy to do. Mine will change tommorow due to me adding a 9 hole score today to meet a 9 holder I had stored. So combined it posted as a 73. I bet that it drops back to a 1 or less from 1.5. I’ll update on the morning.

[nsxguy]

Goodness gracious blade.

You're talking to people that, including yourself, know what they're talking about. So when you through these terms around you need to be accurate.

If a guy at work who didn't play or who only played casually asked you your handicap you'd reply 1.5, your INDEX (or maybe "1", or "2" so as to not have to explain the difference).

If a fellow competitor asked you prior to a round you'd tell him "1", your COURSE HANDICAP that day.

[nsxguy]

I don't know that they don't.

Don't know where you're from but here in the States, right now, they can do exactly that - in fact they don't need to attest anything.

[bladehunter]

No I wouldn’t. I’d say 1.5. That is my handicap index. Today lol

 

Maybe the disconnect is that i don’t use it. Ever. Except for the 3-4 net rounds we are forced into and to qualify for other things. I’ve just never had anyone mention CH on course. Can’t think of a single time.

 

In my opinion your question is the confusing part. When you ask “ what’s your handicap “ how would I assume CH was what you wanted to know ?

[James the Hogan Fan]

I am American from the SF bay area, but I didn't keep a handicap until I was in Finland. Here if you want your handicap to change, you have to predeclare the round a 'handicap round' and then turn in the signed card to the golf shop after the round, and the guy at the desk will enter it in.

And competition rounds naturally count as HC rounds. As far as I am aware, Finland is keeping this system of declared rounds for WHS

[Newby]

I think that is pretty well true of everywhere except the US

[Newby]

A new question.

With all the boards or charts showing the 'conversion' from HI to CH for the various tees, how are Playing Handicaps determined by the players. Does the 95% (say) have to be done manually?

Further, have courses updated their boards/notices to take account of the (CR - Par) element? Or is that being done manually?

[Augster]

Newby, I forgot about the 95% carp that they threw in there. Where are the various percentages and for what forms of play? I’ll go google right after this. Thanks.

 

EDIT: Found it. Appendix C. Is anyone going to actually do these math percentages? Fourball match play is 90% of caps and fourball stroke play is 85% of caps. Stroke play individual is 95%. The only format I frequently play at 100% is individual match play. Seems like a lot of extra math. But, I suppose, in a few cases against higher caps it’ll save me a shot I have to give them.

[DaveLeeNC]

Here is a scenario. Player A has 3 identical best differentials in his last 20 - each of them being 19.0. Assume that they are the 3 oldest among the last 20. Further assume that A's 9th, 10th, and 11th best differentials are 26.0, 27.0, and 28.0.

If A posts 3 consecutive rounds with differentials of more than 28.0, his/her index goes up 3 strokes. So this would be unusual, but not impossible. It takes the right timing and a scoring spread a bit higher than might be typical, but would hardly be rare.

dave

[DaveLeeNC]

In my experience in the US among the more casual golfers who keep an index, neither the term Course Handicap or Handicap Index is used. If you ask somebody 'what is your handicap' you will generally get a response that matches their HI. If you want to know their CH on the course you are playing, you would ask 'how many strokes do you get on this course'. The case of a player playing at less than 100% handicaps is, in my experience, something that is not clear. The answer to the 'strokes' question might or might not match the Playing Handicap on that day and would require more explanation.

dave

[Colin L]

Dearie me. And here was I thinking that Americans never exaggerate anything.

 

[bladehunter]

I believe Dave gave you a real example up top ^.

 

I myself have seen huge score swings in the past. Once having a 65T score and a 92 T ( driver yips , pumping them OB ) on my list at the same time. I myself witnessed my club pro shoot 64 3 weekends ago and he shot 79 Sunday . Same competitive group , same course. No health issues. Swings happen.

[bladehunter]

Thank you Dave. I’m fine to admit ignorance. But I’m not crazy. And I’m not making these things up. It’s very weird to me how my experiences On a golf course do not mirror most who speak here. Folks act as if I’m simply making it up as I go. Lol. Nope. I’m giving an accurate account of what I’ve seen and heard. Which right or wrong is part of the story of how this works. Or why it doesn’t work.

[Colin L]

I'll scroll back and take a look, thanks, but in the meantime, how likely is it for a player of the calibre of your pro to find a 79 appearing in his best 8 scores?

[davep043]

Or that @bladehunter 's 92 appeared in his own "best 8"? This is the magic of averaging, and the reason for leaving the poor scores out of the calculation, the influence of a single odd-ball round is relatively small. As @DaveLeeNC mentioned in his example, its pretty unlikely for a player to have a 7 or 8 stroke gap between his 8th best score and his 11th. For most players, that "center" is where the scores are most likely to be grouped, the larger gaps are almost always at the high and low extremes. Yes, his example could happen, but it would be really unlikely.

[klebs01]

I doubt I end up doing the adjustments. I typically play a fourball Nassau with individual matches against the two opponents too. We aren't going to be keeping track of different handicaps for the different games.

[Halebopp]

It's the same over here, if someone asks about your handicap, the answer is your exact handicap (Handicap Index), if the person asking is a golfer, I might be precise but to a non-golfer I'd say a rounded number. If someone wants to know the Course Handicap, they ask how many shots they get.
@Newby our golf union won't be implementing the 95% for individual stroke play, Stableford, max score and par/bogey formats. Yet another national choice. The union does provide each club with electronic copies of the playing handicap tables and the clubs can print and laminate as many of those as they wish.

[bladehunter]

Not likely. But I’ve played with him since I began this game and I’d say he’d have several 74-75s in his best 8 at any time. Couple those with several 67-69s and your always bumping off a low one with a not so low one. Or opposite. So set them up and you could have a wild up down up down fluctuation. Or seems wild to me to not be able to say “ I’m a 0 “ since it jumps from 0-2 depending on day of the week.

[Augster]

I doubt we will either. Most days we play team round robin Hi/lo which, technically, is stroke play. But we concede putts/pick up when the high is guaranteed. (Knock 2 OB off the tee). So it’s a match play feel, but not match play scoring. It works wonderfully for stroke play scores, if everyone finishes every hole. Which isn’t typically the case.

Add to that, I’ll have an individual stroke play nassau against two of the guys, and a match play nassau against the 3rd guy.

So I’ll give Billy 100% of our caps in our individual match play match, but only get 95% in my stroke play matches against Paul and Darryl. Add to that if round robin is technically 4-ball match play we all reduce by 90%, but if it’s 4-ball stroke play it’s 85% of all caps.

So, as a 6.8 on a 122 slope course where CR-par is -2, I’m a 5 CH. If the round robin is deemed stoke play, (.85), I’m playing off 4, but if it’s match play (.90), I’m playing off 5. Luckily in all my matches I’m a 5.

But I’m a lower cap. My friend Billy is a 16.5. His CH is 16 due to the -2 (CR-par). In the round robin, if it’s deemed stroke play (.85), he’s getting 14. If it’s match play (.90), he’s getting 14 also, but just barely. In my match play match with him, he’s playing off 16 (100%). But in his stroke play matches with Paul and Darryl, he’s playing off 15, (.95).

AND because of all the rounding and the daily handicap updates, this needs to be figured out every day. Granted, he’ll likely be a CH 16 most of the time, a CH 17 some of the time, and a CH 15 rarely, but it can change daily.

I think the ruling bodies went a little nuts with this. Hopefully we’ll see an update where they just put the .96 back into the index then just play all 4-ball off 90% or 85%. And all individual matches, stroke or match, at 100% as always.

[Newby]

AND because of all the rounding and the daily handicap updates, this needs to be figured out every day. Granted, he’ll likely be a CH 16 most of the time, a CH 17 some of the time, and a CH 15 rarely, but it can change daily.

My impression was because of averaging only the best, such swings would be very infrequent.

[nsxguy]

1.4

[bladehunter]

Yes. It is 1.4. Now please explain to me how you knew that without knowing what score would drop off ...