Country Club Questions

[Miss_Tee]

> @raynorfan1 said:

> > @ladygolfer2 said:

> > I actually don't buy it when they say it's not a club-sponsored activity. It gets mentioned in the club newsletter and it figures prominently in the men's page of the club website.

> >

> > There are no guys who don't get to play. It's not an "invitation" type of thing. Any male member can play, and he can bring guests, as long as they are men. All they have to do is show up that morning and they are in the game.

> >

> > I appreciate your comments and I get what you are saying. If I thought that most, or even 1/3 of the guys didn't want to let me play I would drop it. I honestly don't think that is the case. But as oftentimes happens, because it doesn't affect them directly, they don't care enough about it to speak up for me. I honestly believe there are just a handful of men that want to continue to exclude women.

> >

> > You asked why I want to play. It's not that I have a great desire to play with men; I just like competition. It's a lot more fun and meaningful to be playing in a foursome, where your score means something, than out there playing by yourself, waiting to take every shot because you are sandwiched between foursomes. Our course is only a nine-hole course, and there are sometimes over 40 men playing the point game, so no matter what time I go on a weekend morning, I am going to be in between their foursomes.

> >

> > The bottom line is, I just don't see what difference it makes if a golfer is a man or a woman. All I'm asking to do is golf with them. Would it be ok if they started excluding bald men, or divorced men, or men over 250 pounds?

> >

> > I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but this is my opinion.

>

> Couple of questions.

>

> Does the club sponsor any women's only events or tournaments? Should men who "just like competition" be invited to play in them?

>

> If you were invited to play in the Saturday game, would you expect to play the same tees as the other competitors (with appropriate handicap adjustment, under USGA guidelines, if it's a net event)?

>

 

The club has 2 women-only scrambles and 5 men-only scrambles. My opinion - no, men should not be allowed to play in the women's scrambles and women should not be allowed to play in the men's scrambles.

 

I would play from whatever tees they wanted me to play from. The points needed would be adjusted for that set of tees. There are men playing from the senior tees, which are basically the same as the women's tees.

[golfortennis]

> @ladygolfer2 said:

> > @Bluefan75 said:

> > > @ladygolfer2 said:

> > > >

> > > > I would ask you a few questions. 1)Are you paying full dues or do you have a reduced dues(either as secondary to a spouse or otherwise)? 2)Is the club actually blocking off weekend morning times for this points game?

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > 1. Paying for a couples membership with no restrictions.

> > > 2. No they are not blocking off the morning times. I can and have squeezed in between foursomes playing in the weekend morning points game because I want to play in the morning. So I imagine you will ask what my beef is if I am still able to golf. The issue I have is that it’s just a couple of the men that don’t want to let women play. Most of the group doesn’t have a problem with it. I’m hoping next summer I’ll be allowed to join in the games on one of the weekend mornings, either Saturdays or Sundays. I think I finally have enough support behind me.

> >

> > Sorry, just seeing this now. I think the editing took out the notification.

> >

> > My only beef is with someone who pays less than full dues but expects to be able to play at prime time, but that doesn't appear to be the case here. So this is an informal game among these guys. You are looking to play in the game, not just play in the morning, because you are able to do that? I'm not sure what to say. If the club isn't "sanctioning" this points game, and you have the ability to play in the morning... a club does have a number of people, and eventually there will be a few people who don't like each other. Are there guys who don't get to play in this game? There are games that go on at my club every weekend that not everyone gets into, regardless of which bathroom people use.

> >

> > Your dues get you access to the course, and entry into club events for which you are eligible. They don't get you automatic entry into the "cool kids" club. Your beef would be much stronger if the pro shop was scheduling this, IMHO. You would have a real case for a gripe if they are blocking off times to which you have the same access. But you're allowed in the cafeteria, the jocks/cheerleaders/nerds/whichevergroupyouwant just don't want to let you sit at their table. There is still freedom of association. I guess I would ask why you want to play with these guys, and if they decide to let you in, great, but "guys of their own volition organize a game amongst themselves and don't let women in" is not a valid complaint, IMHO.

>

> I actually don't buy it when they say it's not a club-sponsored activity. It gets mentioned in the club newsletter and it figures prominently in the men's page of the club website.

>

> There are no guys who don't get to play. It's not an "invitation" type of thing. Any male member can play, and he can bring guests, as long as they are men. All they have to do is show up that morning and they are in the game.

>

> I appreciate your comments and I get what you are saying. If I thought that most, or even 1/3 of the guys didn't want to let me play I would drop it. I honestly don't think that is the case. But as oftentimes happens, because it doesn't affect them directly, they don't care enough about it to speak up for me. I honestly believe there are just a handful of men that want to continue to exclude women.

>

> You asked why I want to play. It's not that I have a great desire to play with men; I just like competition. It's a lot more fun and meaningful to be playing in a foursome, where your score means something, than out there playing by yourself, waiting to take every shot because you are sandwiched between foursomes. Our course is only a nine-hole course, and there are sometimes over 40 men playing the point game, so no matter what time I go on a weekend morning, I am going to be in between their foursomes.

>

> The bottom line is, I just don't see what difference it makes if a golfer is a man or a woman. All I'm asking to do is golf with them. Would it be ok if they started excluding bald men, or divorced men, or men over 250 pounds?

>

> I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but this is my opinion.

>

 

Whoa, whoa, this is a private club that lets guests play in this thing each weekend? Now here you have a beef. That is crap.

 

I will say this to your last question, though. A woman in a group changes the dynamic. Think what you want, but guys always act differently when a woman is around. Some of it is good(use a washroom to take a leak), but some of it is not as good. Guys fire off jokes that they would say in front of guys but not in front of women. It's why you will get a lot of agreement that guys will not agree with a club excluding people based on race, etc., but will support a men's only club. It just creates a different dynamic. It's not good or bad, just what it is. And sometimes guys want to get away from it. Women can and do get away from it whenever they want. Why can't men?

 

 

[Miss_Tee]

 

> > I actually don't buy it when they say it's not a club-sponsored activity. It gets mentioned in the club newsletter and it figures prominently in the men's page of the club website.

> >

> > There are no guys who don't get to play. It's not an "invitation" type of thing. Any male member can play, and he can bring guests, as long as they are men. All they have to do is show up that morning and they are in the game.

> >

> > I appreciate your comments and I get what you are saying. If I thought that most, or even 1/3 of the guys didn't want to let me play I would drop it. I honestly don't think that is the case. But as oftentimes happens, because it doesn't affect them directly, they don't care enough about it to speak up for me. I honestly believe there are just a handful of men that want to continue to exclude women.

> >

> > You asked why I want to play. It's not that I have a great desire to play with men; I just like competition. It's a lot more fun and meaningful to be playing in a foursome, where your score means something, than out there playing by yourself, waiting to take every shot because you are sandwiched between foursomes. Our course is only a nine-hole course, and there are sometimes over 40 men playing the point game, so no matter what time I go on a weekend morning, I am going to be in between their foursomes.

> >

> > The bottom line is, I just don't see what difference it makes if a golfer is a man or a woman. All I'm asking to do is golf with them. Would it be ok if they started excluding bald men, or divorced men, or men over 250 pounds?

> >

> > I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but this is my opinion.

> >

>

> Whoa, whoa, this is a private club that lets guests play in this thing each weekend? Now here you have a beef. That is crap.

>

> I will say this to your last question, though. A woman in a group changes the dynamic. Think what you want, but guys always act differently when a woman is around. Some of it is good(use a washroom to take a leak), but some of it is not as good. Guys fire off jokes that they would say in front of guys but not in front of women. It's why you will get a lot of agreement that guys will not agree with a club excluding people based on race, etc., but will support a men's only club. It just creates a different dynamic. It's not good or bad, just what it is. And sometimes guys want to get away from it. Women can and do get away from it whenever they want. Why can't men?

>

>

 

Yes, it’s a private club and men can bring non-member (male) guests to play in the weekend morning points games. And when one of my friends tried to bring me I was turned away.

 

I’ve proposed that the men who don’t want to play with women not have to. They could be upfront about it and it could be avoided. It wouldn’t hurt my feelings a bit if a few men said they would rather not play with me. Would it really change the dynamic just having one or two women somewhere else within the group of 40+golfers? (I’m asking this sincerely)

 

And I’m not sure what you mean when you say “women can and do get away from it whenever they want.”

 

 

[az2au]

> @Bluefan75 said:

> > @ladygolfer2 said:

> > > @Bluefan75 said:

> > > > @ladygolfer2 said:

> > > > >

> > > > > I would ask you a few questions. 1)Are you paying full dues or do you have a reduced dues(either as secondary to a spouse or otherwise)? 2)Is the club actually blocking off weekend morning times for this points game?

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > 1. Paying for a couples membership with no restrictions.

> > > > 2. No they are not blocking off the morning times. I can and have squeezed in between foursomes playing in the weekend morning points game because I want to play in the morning. So I imagine you will ask what my beef is if I am still able to golf. The issue I have is that it’s just a couple of the men that don’t want to let women play. Most of the group doesn’t have a problem with it. I’m hoping next summer I’ll be allowed to join in the games on one of the weekend mornings, either Saturdays or Sundays. I think I finally have enough support behind me.

> > >

> > > Sorry, just seeing this now. I think the editing took out the notification.

> > >

> > > My only beef is with someone who pays less than full dues but expects to be able to play at prime time, but that doesn't appear to be the case here. So this is an informal game among these guys. You are looking to play in the game, not just play in the morning, because you are able to do that? I'm not sure what to say. If the club isn't "sanctioning" this points game, and you have the ability to play in the morning... a club does have a number of people, and eventually there will be a few people who don't like each other. Are there guys who don't get to play in this game? There are games that go on at my club every weekend that not everyone gets into, regardless of which bathroom people use.

> > >

> > > Your dues get you access to the course, and entry into club events for which you are eligible. They don't get you automatic entry into the "cool kids" club. Your beef would be much stronger if the pro shop was scheduling this, IMHO. You would have a real case for a gripe if they are blocking off times to which you have the same access. But you're allowed in the cafeteria, the jocks/cheerleaders/nerds/whichevergroupyouwant just don't want to let you sit at their table. There is still freedom of association. I guess I would ask why you want to play with these guys, and if they decide to let you in, great, but "guys of their own volition organize a game amongst themselves and don't let women in" is not a valid complaint, IMHO.

> >

> > I actually don't buy it when they say it's not a club-sponsored activity. It gets mentioned in the club newsletter and it figures prominently in the men's page of the club website.

> >

> > There are no guys who don't get to play. It's not an "invitation" type of thing. Any male member can play, and he can bring guests, as long as they are men. All they have to do is show up that morning and they are in the game.

> >

> > I appreciate your comments and I get what you are saying. If I thought that most, or even 1/3 of the guys didn't want to let me play I would drop it. I honestly don't think that is the case. But as oftentimes happens, because it doesn't affect them directly, they don't care enough about it to speak up for me. I honestly believe there are just a handful of men that want to continue to exclude women.

> >

> > You asked why I want to play. It's not that I have a great desire to play with men; I just like competition. It's a lot more fun and meaningful to be playing in a foursome, where your score means something, than out there playing by yourself, waiting to take every shot because you are sandwiched between foursomes. Our course is only a nine-hole course, and there are sometimes over 40 men playing the point game, so no matter what time I go on a weekend morning, I am going to be in between their foursomes.

> >

> > The bottom line is, I just don't see what difference it makes if a golfer is a man or a woman. All I'm asking to do is golf with them. Would it be ok if they started excluding bald men, or divorced men, or men over 250 pounds?

> >

> > I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but this is my opinion.

> >

>

> Whoa, whoa, this is a private club that lets guests play in this thing each weekend? Now here you have a beef. That is crap.

>

> I will say this to your last question, though. A woman in a group changes the dynamic. Think what you want, but guys always act differently when a woman is around. Some of it is good(use a washroom to take a leak), but some of it is not as good. Guys fire off jokes that they would say in front of guys but not in front of women. It's why you will get a lot of agreement that guys will not agree with a club excluding people based on race, etc., but will support a men's only club. It just creates a different dynamic. It's not good or bad, just what it is. And sometimes guys want to get away from it. Women can and do get away from it whenever they want. Why can't men?

>

>

 

That’s just not true for everyone. I don’t play with anyone regularly that acts differently when we have women in the group than when we don’t. And one of the guys says absolutely the most outrageous things you can imagine regardless of who he is playing with (he’s Scottish by birth so I’m sure that some of it). TBC my wife both loves him and thinks he’s an idiot.

 

I think anyone that acts differently is kinda pathetic honestly. Either you are who you are or you’re a coward.

[Miss_Tee]

> @az2au said:

> > @Bluefan75 said:

> > > @ladygolfer2 said:

> > > > @Bluefan75 said:

> > > > > @ladygolfer2 said:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I would ask you a few questions. 1)Are you paying full dues or do you have a reduced dues(either as secondary to a spouse or otherwise)? 2)Is the club actually blocking off weekend morning times for this points game?

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > 1. Paying for a couples membership with no restrictions.

> > > > > 2. No they are not blocking off the morning times. I can and have squeezed in between foursomes playing in the weekend morning points game because I want to play in the morning. So I imagine you will ask what my beef is if I am still able to golf. The issue I have is that it’s just a couple of the men that don’t want to let women play. Most of the group doesn’t have a problem with it. I’m hoping next summer I’ll be allowed to join in the games on one of the weekend mornings, either Saturdays or Sundays. I think I finally have enough support behind me.

> > > >

> > > > Sorry, just seeing this now. I think the editing took out the notification.

> > > >

> > > > My only beef is with someone who pays less than full dues but expects to be able to play at prime time, but that doesn't appear to be the case here. So this is an informal game among these guys. You are looking to play in the game, not just play in the morning, because you are able to do that? I'm not sure what to say. If the club isn't "sanctioning" this points game, and you have the ability to play in the morning... a club does have a number of people, and eventually there will be a few people who don't like each other. Are there guys who don't get to play in this game? There are games that go on at my club every weekend that not everyone gets into, regardless of which bathroom people use.

> > > >

> > > > Your dues get you access to the course, and entry into club events for which you are eligible. They don't get you automatic entry into the "cool kids" club. Your beef would be much stronger if the pro shop was scheduling this, IMHO. You would have a real case for a gripe if they are blocking off times to which you have the same access. But you're allowed in the cafeteria, the jocks/cheerleaders/nerds/whichevergroupyouwant just don't want to let you sit at their table. There is still freedom of association. I guess I would ask why you want to play with these guys, and if they decide to let you in, great, but "guys of their own volition organize a game amongst themselves and don't let women in" is not a valid complaint, IMHO.

> > >

> > > I actually don't buy it when they say it's not a club-sponsored activity. It gets mentioned in the club newsletter and it figures prominently in the men's page of the club website.

> > >

> > > There are no guys who don't get to play. It's not an "invitation" type of thing. Any male member can play, and he can bring guests, as long as they are men. All they have to do is show up that morning and they are in the game.

> > >

> > > I appreciate your comments and I get what you are saying. If I thought that most, or even 1/3 of the guys didn't want to let me play I would drop it. I honestly don't think that is the case. But as oftentimes happens, because it doesn't affect them directly, they don't care enough about it to speak up for me. I honestly believe there are just a handful of men that want to continue to exclude women.

> > >

> > > You asked why I want to play. It's not that I have a great desire to play with men; I just like competition. It's a lot more fun and meaningful to be playing in a foursome, where your score means something, than out there playing by yourself, waiting to take every shot because you are sandwiched between foursomes. Our course is only a nine-hole course, and there are sometimes over 40 men playing the point game, so no matter what time I go on a weekend morning, I am going to be in between their foursomes.

> > >

> > > The bottom line is, I just don't see what difference it makes if a golfer is a man or a woman. All I'm asking to do is golf with them. Would it be ok if they started excluding bald men, or divorced men, or men over 250 pounds?

> > >

> > > I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but this is my opinion.

> > >

> >

> > Whoa, whoa, this is a private club that lets guests play in this thing each weekend? Now here you have a beef. That is crap.

> >

> > I will say this to your last question, though. A woman in a group changes the dynamic. Think what you want, but guys always act differently when a woman is around. Some of it is good(use a washroom to take a leak), but some of it is not as good. Guys fire off jokes that they would say in front of guys but not in front of women. It's why you will get a lot of agreement that guys will not agree with a club excluding people based on race, etc., but will support a men's only club. It just creates a different dynamic. It's not good or bad, just what it is. And sometimes guys want to get away from it. Women can and do get away from it whenever they want. Why can't men?

> >

> >

>

> That’s just not true for everyone. I don’t play with anyone regularly that acts differently when we have women in the group than when we don’t. And one of the guys says absolutely the most outrageous things you can imagine regardless of who he is playing with (he’s Scottish by birth so I’m sure that some of it). TBC my wife both loves him and thinks he’s an idiot.

>

> I think anyone that acts differently is kinda pathetic honestly. Either you are who you are or you’re a coward.

 

That’s an interesting comment. Thank you.

[krb]

> I think anyone that acts differently is kinda pathetic honestly. Either you are who you are or you’re a coward.

 

You act differently at church vs at a bar. You act differently at work vs at home. You act in a way appropriate for the situation.

 

Acting differently with a close knit group of same sex friends vs when in mixed company is natural.

[krb]

> @krb said:

> > I think anyone that acts differently is kinda pathetic honestly. Either you are who you are or you’re a coward.

>

> You act differently at church vs at a bar. You act differently at work vs at home. You act in a way appropriate for the situation.

>

> Acting differently with a close knit group of same **** friends vs when in mixed company is natural.

 

Sheesh... I can’t write same s e x friends?

 

[Warrior42111]

^^^agreed. I admittedly pushed the line on my jokes or sarcasm. I definitely tone it tone until I get a read on someone new, and until can see I’m (at least I hope) a good guy.

 

That being said I wouldn’t protest someone new joining a group

[golfortennis]

> @az2au said:

> > @Bluefan75 said:

> > > @ladygolfer2 said:

> > > > @Bluefan75 said:

> > > > > @ladygolfer2 said:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I would ask you a few questions. 1)Are you paying full dues or do you have a reduced dues(either as secondary to a spouse or otherwise)? 2)Is the club actually blocking off weekend morning times for this points game?

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > 1. Paying for a couples membership with no restrictions.

> > > > > 2. No they are not blocking off the morning times. I can and have squeezed in between foursomes playing in the weekend morning points game because I want to play in the morning. So I imagine you will ask what my beef is if I am still able to golf. The issue I have is that it’s just a couple of the men that don’t want to let women play. Most of the group doesn’t have a problem with it. I’m hoping next summer I’ll be allowed to join in the games on one of the weekend mornings, either Saturdays or Sundays. I think I finally have enough support behind me.

> > > >

> > > > Sorry, just seeing this now. I think the editing took out the notification.

> > > >

> > > > My only beef is with someone who pays less than full dues but expects to be able to play at prime time, but that doesn't appear to be the case here. So this is an informal game among these guys. You are looking to play in the game, not just play in the morning, because you are able to do that? I'm not sure what to say. If the club isn't "sanctioning" this points game, and you have the ability to play in the morning... a club does have a number of people, and eventually there will be a few people who don't like each other. Are there guys who don't get to play in this game? There are games that go on at my club every weekend that not everyone gets into, regardless of which bathroom people use.

> > > >

> > > > Your dues get you access to the course, and entry into club events for which you are eligible. They don't get you automatic entry into the "cool kids" club. Your beef would be much stronger if the pro shop was scheduling this, IMHO. You would have a real case for a gripe if they are blocking off times to which you have the same access. But you're allowed in the cafeteria, the jocks/cheerleaders/nerds/whichevergroupyouwant just don't want to let you sit at their table. There is still freedom of association. I guess I would ask why you want to play with these guys, and if they decide to let you in, great, but "guys of their own volition organize a game amongst themselves and don't let women in" is not a valid complaint, IMHO.

> > >

> > > I actually don't buy it when they say it's not a club-sponsored activity. It gets mentioned in the club newsletter and it figures prominently in the men's page of the club website.

> > >

> > > There are no guys who don't get to play. It's not an "invitation" type of thing. Any male member can play, and he can bring guests, as long as they are men. All they have to do is show up that morning and they are in the game.

> > >

> > > I appreciate your comments and I get what you are saying. If I thought that most, or even 1/3 of the guys didn't want to let me play I would drop it. I honestly don't think that is the case. But as oftentimes happens, because it doesn't affect them directly, they don't care enough about it to speak up for me. I honestly believe there are just a handful of men that want to continue to exclude women.

> > >

> > > You asked why I want to play. It's not that I have a great desire to play with men; I just like competition. It's a lot more fun and meaningful to be playing in a foursome, where your score means something, than out there playing by yourself, waiting to take every shot because you are sandwiched between foursomes. Our course is only a nine-hole course, and there are sometimes over 40 men playing the point game, so no matter what time I go on a weekend morning, I am going to be in between their foursomes.

> > >

> > > The bottom line is, I just don't see what difference it makes if a golfer is a man or a woman. All I'm asking to do is golf with them. Would it be ok if they started excluding bald men, or divorced men, or men over 250 pounds?

> > >

> > > I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but this is my opinion.

> > >

> >

> > Whoa, whoa, this is a private club that lets guests play in this thing each weekend? Now here you have a beef. That is crap.

> >

> > I will say this to your last question, though. A woman in a group changes the dynamic. Think what you want, but guys always act differently when a woman is around. Some of it is good(use a washroom to take a leak), but some of it is not as good. Guys fire off jokes that they would say in front of guys but not in front of women. It's why you will get a lot of agreement that guys will not agree with a club excluding people based on race, etc., but will support a men's only club. It just creates a different dynamic. It's not good or bad, just what it is. And sometimes guys want to get away from it. Women can and do get away from it whenever they want. Why can't men?

> >

> >

>

> That’s just not true for everyone. I don’t play with anyone regularly that acts differently when we have women in the group than when we don’t. And one of the guys says absolutely the most outrageous things you can imagine regardless of who he is playing with (he’s Scottish by birth so I’m sure that some of it). TBC my wife both loves him and thinks he’s an idiot.

>

> I think anyone that acts differently is kinda pathetic honestly. Either you are who you are or you’re a coward.

 

not worth the response I originally posted.

[Miss_Tee]

> @krb said:

> > I think anyone that acts differently is kinda pathetic honestly. Either you are who you are or you’re a coward.

>

> You act differently at church vs at a bar. You act differently at work vs at home. You act in a way appropriate for the situation.

>

> Acting differently with a close knit group of same **** friends vs when in mixed company is natural.

 

That is probably true but does that necessarily need to lessen their enjoyment of a round of golf? There are certain things that I would say while golfing during women’s league that I wouldn’t say while golfing with guys but that doesn’t make the mixed company round less enjoyable. It’s not that hard to find appropriate topics.

 

What about this - suppose a priest and a rabbi wanted to join the weekend morning games? I’m guessing the guys that got hooked up with them would feel they should watch what they said. They’d do it and hope they didn’t get paired with them too often, right?

[krb]

> @ladygolfer2 said:

> > @krb said:

> > Acting differently with a close knit group of same **** friends vs when in mixed company is natural.

>

> That is probably true but does that necessarily need to lessen their enjoyment of a round of golf?

 

My wife and I enjoy playing together either on our own or with other couples. We also enjoy playing with our respective groups. I don’t get many opportunities to hang out with the guys and that’s important to me. I would be opposed to allowing women in our game for that reason.

 

That said, the dynamics and opportunities at each club are different. My wife has plenty of opportunities to play competitive rounds at our club and in competitions against other local clubs. We’re both satisfied with the arrangement. If we were not both able to enjoy the club, we’d be looking for another club.

[cristphoto]

> @ladygolfer2 said:

>

> > > I actually don't buy it when they say it's not a club-sponsored activity. It gets mentioned in the club newsletter and it figures prominently in the men's page of the club website.

> > >

> > > There are no guys who don't get to play. It's not an "invitation" type of thing. Any male member can play, and he can bring guests, as long as they are men. All they have to do is show up that morning and they are in the game.

> > >

> > > I appreciate your comments and I get what you are saying. If I thought that most, or even 1/3 of the guys didn't want to let me play I would drop it. I honestly don't think that is the case. But as oftentimes happens, because it doesn't affect them directly, they don't care enough about it to speak up for me. I honestly believe there are just a handful of men that want to continue to exclude women.

> > >

> > > You asked why I want to play. It's not that I have a great desire to play with men; I just like competition. It's a lot more fun and meaningful to be playing in a foursome, where your score means something, than out there playing by yourself, waiting to take every shot because you are sandwiched between foursomes. Our course is only a nine-hole course, and there are sometimes over 40 men playing the point game, so no matter what time I go on a weekend morning, I am going to be in between their foursomes.

> > >

> > > The bottom line is, I just don't see what difference it makes if a golfer is a man or a woman. All I'm asking to do is golf with them. Would it be ok if they started excluding bald men, or divorced men, or men over 250 pounds?

> > >

> > > I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but this is my opinion.

> > >

> >

> > Whoa, whoa, this is a private club that lets guests play in this thing each weekend? Now here you have a beef. That is crap.

> >

> > I will say this to your last question, though. A woman in a group changes the dynamic. Think what you want, but guys always act differently when a woman is around. Some of it is good(use a washroom to take a leak), but some of it is not as good. Guys fire off jokes that they would say in front of guys but not in front of women. It's why you will get a lot of agreement that guys will not agree with a club excluding people based on race, etc., but will support a men's only club. It just creates a different dynamic. It's not good or bad, just what it is. And sometimes guys want to get away from it. Women can and do get away from it whenever they want. Why can't men?

> >

> >

>

> Yes, it’s a private club and men can bring non-member (male) guests to play in the weekend morning points games. And when one of my friends tried to bring me I was turned away.

>

> I’ve proposed that the men who don’t want to play with women not have to. They could be upfront about it and it could be avoided. It wouldn’t hurt my feelings a bit if a few men said they would rather not play with me. Would it really change the dynamic just having one or two women somewhere else within the group of 40+golfers? (I’m asking this sincerely)

>

> And I’m not sure what you mean when you say “women can and do get away from it whenever they want.”

>

>

 

At my club I can bring a guest in every day but I can only bring the same person in once a month. When I make a teetime (either on-line or via pro shop) I'm asked if its a member or a guest. If its a guest I must list their name. Theoretically the computer will kick out the name if I sign them up more than once a month. Our weekend guest fee is pretty high to encourage member-only play.

[az2au]

> @Bluefan75 said:

> > @az2au said:

> > > @Bluefan75 said:

> > > > @ladygolfer2 said:

> > > > > @Bluefan75 said:

> > > > > > @ladygolfer2 said:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I would ask you a few questions. 1)Are you paying full dues or do you have a reduced dues(either as secondary to a spouse or otherwise)? 2)Is the club actually blocking off weekend morning times for this points game?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 1. Paying for a couples membership with no restrictions.

> > > > > > 2. No they are not blocking off the morning times. I can and have squeezed in between foursomes playing in the weekend morning points game because I want to play in the morning. So I imagine you will ask what my beef is if I am still able to golf. The issue I have is that it’s just a couple of the men that don’t want to let women play. Most of the group doesn’t have a problem with it. I’m hoping next summer I’ll be allowed to join in the games on one of the weekend mornings, either Saturdays or Sundays. I think I finally have enough support behind me.

> > > > >

> > > > > Sorry, just seeing this now. I think the editing took out the notification.

> > > > >

> > > > > My only beef is with someone who pays less than full dues but expects to be able to play at prime time, but that doesn't appear to be the case here. So this is an informal game among these guys. You are looking to play in the game, not just play in the morning, because you are able to do that? I'm not sure what to say. If the club isn't "sanctioning" this points game, and you have the ability to play in the morning... a club does have a number of people, and eventually there will be a few people who don't like each other. Are there guys who don't get to play in this game? There are games that go on at my club every weekend that not everyone gets into, regardless of which bathroom people use.

> > > > >

> > > > > Your dues get you access to the course, and entry into club events for which you are eligible. They don't get you automatic entry into the "cool kids" club. Your beef would be much stronger if the pro shop was scheduling this, IMHO. You would have a real case for a gripe if they are blocking off times to which you have the same access. But you're allowed in the cafeteria, the jocks/cheerleaders/nerds/whichevergroupyouwant just don't want to let you sit at their table. There is still freedom of association. I guess I would ask why you want to play with these guys, and if they decide to let you in, great, but "guys of their own volition organize a game amongst themselves and don't let women in" is not a valid complaint, IMHO.

> > > >

> > > > I actually don't buy it when they say it's not a club-sponsored activity. It gets mentioned in the club newsletter and it figures prominently in the men's page of the club website.

> > > >

> > > > There are no guys who don't get to play. It's not an "invitation" type of thing. Any male member can play, and he can bring guests, as long as they are men. All they have to do is show up that morning and they are in the game.

> > > >

> > > > I appreciate your comments and I get what you are saying. If I thought that most, or even 1/3 of the guys didn't want to let me play I would drop it. I honestly don't think that is the case. But as oftentimes happens, because it doesn't affect them directly, they don't care enough about it to speak up for me. I honestly believe there are just a handful of men that want to continue to exclude women.

> > > >

> > > > You asked why I want to play. It's not that I have a great desire to play with men; I just like competition. It's a lot more fun and meaningful to be playing in a foursome, where your score means something, than out there playing by yourself, waiting to take every shot because you are sandwiched between foursomes. Our course is only a nine-hole course, and there are sometimes over 40 men playing the point game, so no matter what time I go on a weekend morning, I am going to be in between their foursomes.

> > > >

> > > > The bottom line is, I just don't see what difference it makes if a golfer is a man or a woman. All I'm asking to do is golf with them. Would it be ok if they started excluding bald men, or divorced men, or men over 250 pounds?

> > > >

> > > > I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but this is my opinion.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Whoa, whoa, this is a private club that lets guests play in this thing each weekend? Now here you have a beef. That is crap.

> > >

> > > I will say this to your last question, though. A woman in a group changes the dynamic. Think what you want, but guys always act differently when a woman is around. Some of it is good(use a washroom to take a leak), but some of it is not as good. Guys fire off jokes that they would say in front of guys but not in front of women. It's why you will get a lot of agreement that guys will not agree with a club excluding people based on race, etc., but will support a men's only club. It just creates a different dynamic. It's not good or bad, just what it is. And sometimes guys want to get away from it. Women can and do get away from it whenever they want. Why can't men?

> > >

> > >

> >

> > That’s just not true for everyone. I don’t play with anyone regularly that acts differently when we have women in the group than when we don’t. And one of the guys says absolutely the most outrageous things you can imagine regardless of who he is playing with (he’s Scottish by birth so I’m sure that some of it). TBC my wife both loves him and thinks he’s an idiot.

> >

> > I think anyone that acts differently is kinda pathetic honestly. Either you are who you are or you’re a coward.

>

> not worth the response I originally posted.

Bring it. I absolutely stand by what I said and have no regrets.

 

[az2au]

> @krb said:

> > I think anyone that acts differently is kinda pathetic honestly. Either you are who you are or you’re a coward.

>

> You act differently at church vs at a bar. You act differently at work vs at home. You act in a way appropriate for the situation.

>

> Acting differently with a close knit group of same **** friends vs when in mixed company is natural.

 

No it isn't. I don't and don't hang with anyone regularly who does. And it is in no way analogous to your other examples. You might as well say I act differently around "people of color" as I do around white people. On the golf course I act how I act. That's it period. Everyone else I play with regularly is the same. I know this because we often play as just a group of guys and just as often with some combination of our significant others.

 

Again, either you are who you are or you a coward. If I only feel comfortable saying something in front of a group of people that looks like me then it is a cowardly statement. You'll not convince me otherwise.

[CCTxGolf]

Geeze this thread to a rather obnoxious turn.

 

 

[cubanstogie]

> @az2au said:

> > @krb said:

> > > I think anyone that acts differently is kinda pathetic honestly. Either you are who you are or you’re a coward.

> >

> > You act differently at church vs at a bar. You act differently at work vs at home. You act in a way appropriate for the situation.

> >

> > Acting differently with a close knit group of same **** friends vs when in mixed company is natural.

>

> No it isn't. I don't and don't hang with anyone regularly who does. And it is in no way analogous to your other examples. You might as well say I act differently around "people of color" as I do around white people. On the golf course I act how I act. That's it period. Everyone else I play with regularly is the same. I know this because we often play as just a group of guys and just as often with some combination of our significant others.

>

> Again, either you are who you are or you a coward. If I only feel comfortable saying something in front of a group of people that looks like me then it is a cowardly statement. You'll not convince me otherwise.

 

A little close minded IMO. There are always exceptions. I swear like a sailor at the firehouse or on golf course, but at home around daughter and wife I don't (as much). I never thought of myself as cowardly for it, responsible and trying to set a good example was my intention. We talk about s e x and hot women and drink after a round but would hardly do that with certain women at the table. Respect for women, elders and children would be the reason, not being a coward.

[lakecowboy]

> @byrne092 said:

> > @"david.c.w" said:

> > Seems like you are leaning toward #4 but it is the farthest. May come down to how much you plan on using the amenities during the week. If expecting to play 9 after work, experience 1/2 price wine night or use the gym closer is better so consider #2. If you plan on playing only on the weekends and have some time flexibility go with #4. Don't forget that the golf course, while the biggest asset and main driver, is only a part of the overall experience. And as I have told people before, there is probably not a wrong answer, but maybe 4 right answers.

>

> Yeah. I plan on making a pros/cons list and having a honest discussion with my wife. There are many ways I am looking at it.

> 1. I am not getting any closer than 25 minutes, so is 45 that much worse?

> 2. The only direction I am moving it closer to 1, 3, or 4; but I don't have any plans to move anytime soon.

> 3. The 100% biggest factor for me is the golf course, golfing members and events. My real desire to join is that I currently don't have any (1-2, but they have very limited schedules) friends that golf (all my old golfing buddies moved out of state). My wife knows this and wants me to enjoy the time I spend playing golf - part of the reason she doesn't have much push back on joining a club. I still need to find out what she truly wants.

> 4. We are young and live in the city because we like all the restaurants, bars, etc that the city scene provides. We have a pretty active group of friends. I want the camaraderie of the club, but I don't see myself being a club hound.

>

> Overall I still want my better half to be OK with the commute, because I want her to enjoy it as well

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Low Class Advice ?

[david.c.w]

> @lakecowboy said:

 

>

> Also, once you decide on a club, don't pay whatever their initiation fee is as stated on their information they gave you. Let them know you have options and have explored other clubs seriously, they want your money and will negotiate with you. You have a lot of options, take the cheapest buy in and try and use that to bring the club you selects buy in down. You'd be surprised what they can do. Don't be afraid of longer commitments if it reduces your buy in, anticipate being there for a long time. I added an extra year to my commitment and cut my buy in by 50% when referencing another clubs buy in and also got my dues reduced for two years. Lastly, look around the pro shop and ask for some branded merchandise to represent the golf club and advertise for them. You're going to buy it anyways, might as well get a head start and save a little here by asking for it up front. Its advertisement for them when you wear it to work, dinner, etc.

>

>

> PM me if you have any negotiation questions or concerns.

 

Everyone should be very careful with this path forward, depending on what you are trying to do. If you are joining a membership to save money on a daily fee course perhaps this will work. If you ask for a discount or free swag from a club with a $20k+ initiation fee that has a waiting list, you might find yourself on the outside looking in.

 

"Hi, can you give me a free shirt so I can advertise your club?" Pretty low class if you ask me (which you didn't).

 

[lakecowboy]

> @"david.c.w" said:

> > @lakecowboy said:

>

> >

> > Also, once you decide on a club, don't pay whatever their initiation fee is as stated on their information they gave you. Let them know you have options and have explored other clubs seriously, they want your money and will negotiate with you. You have a lot of options, take the cheapest buy in and try and use that to bring the club you selects buy in down. You'd be surprised what they can do. Don't be afraid of longer commitments if it reduces your buy in, anticipate being there for a long time. I added an extra year to my commitment and cut my buy in by 50% when referencing another clubs buy in and also got my dues reduced for two years. Lastly, look around the pro shop and ask for some branded merchandise to represent the golf club and advertise for them. You're going to buy it anyways, might as well get a head start and save a little here by asking for it up front. Its advertisement for them when you wear it to work, dinner, etc.

> >

> >

> > PM me if you have any negotiation questions or concerns.

>

> Everyone should be very careful with this path forward, depending on what you are trying to do. If you are joining a membership to save money on a daily fee course perhaps this will work. If you ask for a discount or free swag from a club with a $20k+ initiation fee that has a waiting list, you might find yourself on the outside looking in.

>

> "Hi, can you give me a free shirt so I can advertise your club?" Pretty low class if you ask me (which you didn't).

>

 

You aren't getting anything asking for a discount, but if you are between two prestigious clubs and there is a difference in buyin/dues, I don't see any problem in asking Club A if they can match or approach Club B. You have to be perfectly content with Club B if Club A balks, but that's just being smart financially. Factors like age and other things come into the equation, but he said he's young so he shouldn't have any problem negotiating. With 24 clubs he said were in the area, there is a ton of competition and young members have more long term earning potentially than older members.

[david.c.w]

> @lakecowboy said:

 

> You aren't getting anything asking for a discount, but if you are between two prestigious clubs and there is a difference in buyin/dues, I don't see any problem in asking Club A if they can match or approach Club B.

 

I simply disagree. "Prestigious" clubs simply don't negotiate, especially in today's marketplace where membership is full with multi-year waiting lists. Initiation and dues are set in the bylaws and/or rules/regulations documents. Again if someone wants to buy a yearly membership to a daily fee course this may be a reasonable option. My point is that it likely cannot and probably should not be done for a traditional country club. When the market tanks and resignations increase it might work, but not today.

[Miss_Tee]

> @"david.c.w" said:

> > @lakecowboy said:

>

> > You aren't getting anything asking for a discount, but if you are between two prestigious clubs and there is a difference in buyin/dues, I don't see any problem in asking Club A if they can match or approach Club B.

>

> I simply disagree. "Prestigious" clubs simply don't negotiate, especially in today's marketplace where membership is full with multi-year waiting lists. Initiation and dues are set in the bylaws and/or rules/regulations documents. Again if someone wants to buy a yearly membership to a daily fee course this may be a reasonable option. My point is that it likely cannot and probably should not be done for a traditional country club. When the market tanks and resignations increase it might work, but not today.

 

My club certainly isn't prestigious, but they wouldn't negotiate dues. That would not go over well with existing members. The rates are set. I'm sure the attitude would be either pay it or don't join.

[lakecowboy]

> @"david.c.w" said:

> > @lakecowboy said:

>

> > You aren't getting anything asking for a discount, but if you are between two prestigious clubs and there is a difference in buyin/dues, I don't see any problem in asking Club A if they can match or approach Club B.

>

> I simply disagree. "Prestigious" clubs simply don't negotiate, especially in today's marketplace where membership is full with multi-year waiting lists. Initiation and dues are set in the bylaws and/or rules/regulations documents. Again if someone wants to buy a yearly membership to a daily fee course this may be a reasonable option. My point is that it likely cannot and probably should not be done for a traditional country club. When the market tanks and resignations increase it might work, but not today.

 

That's your take, but then again you've never asked or negotiated any business deal in life because its "low class".

[david.c.w]

 

> @lakecowboy said:

 

> That's your take, but then again you've never asked or negotiated any business deal in life because its "low class".

 

Negotiating isn't low class. Low class is asking for (and expecting) free stuff, "just because..."

 

Some things are negotiable, some are not.

 

Cars? Yes

Milk? No

A yearly package at a public course? Maybe

Initiation/dues at a traditional country club? No

[GolfSRQ]

> @"david.c.w" said:

> > @lakecowboy said:

>

> >

> > Also, once you decide on a club, don't pay whatever their initiation fee is as stated on their information they gave you. Let them know you have options and have explored other clubs seriously, they want your money and will negotiate with you. You have a lot of options, take the cheapest buy in and try and use that to bring the club you selects buy in down. You'd be surprised what they can do. Don't be afraid of longer commitments if it reduces your buy in, anticipate being there for a long time. I added an extra year to my commitment and cut my buy in by 50% when referencing another clubs buy in and also got my dues reduced for two years. Lastly, look around the pro shop and ask for some branded merchandise to represent the golf club and advertise for them. You're going to buy it anyways, might as well get a head start and save a little here by asking for it up front. Its advertisement for them when you wear it to work, dinner, etc.

 

 

Bush league.

 

You’re probably the guy that switches to an old crappy ball when Playing a par 3 over water.

 

 

 

[caniac6]

After reading some of these responses, I'm convinced I have no place in a private club.

[GolfSRQ]

If you’re negotiating an annual pass at a semi private club then whatever , have at it. But there is respect and class when it comes to a private club. The mentality of being a member should be to want to invest in your club and spend money There. Make it a better place , take care of the pro, eat in the dining room etc.

trying to get a free shirt on the way out the door would not fly at any country club I’ve belonged to or visited.

[lakecowboy]

> @GolfSRQ said:

> If you’re negotiating an annual pass at a semi private club then whatever , have at it. But there is respect and class when it comes to a private club. The mentality of being a member should be to want to invest in your club and spend money There. Make it a better place , take care of the pro, eat in the dining room etc.

> trying to get a free shirt on the way out the door would not fly at any country club I’ve belonged to or visited.

 

So when you write a check for over $10k it’s bush league to ask, can I get a couple pull overs too?

 

???????

 

Byrne, did you get all those notes? Make sure you join one of these guys clubs if you are in St. Louis. Making friends will be easy there.

[lakecowboy]

> @GolfSRQ said:

> If you’re negotiating an annual pass at a semi private club then whatever , have at it. But there is respect and class when it comes to a private club. The mentality of being a member should be to want to invest in your club and spend money There. Make it a better place , take care of the pro, eat in the dining room etc.

> trying to get a free shirt on the way out the door would not fly at any country club I’ve belonged to or visited.

 

I whole heartedly agree with pouring a ton of money in once you’ve joined, absolutely. I view the buy in as a business transaction like day to day business. Then again, I’ve been told recently I’m low class.

 

 

[david.c.w]

> @lakecowboy said:

 

>

> So when you write a check for over $10k it’s bush league to ask, can I get a couple pull overs too?

>

> ???????

>

 

I am trying to be civil here, but to put it simply, "Absolutely".

 

For anyone reading this thread and considering joining a country club, Don't. Do. This. Price is for sure a factor when looking around, but joining a club is done as a lifestyle choice with discretionary income. If anything club membership is the opposite of "day to day business". Financially speaking, joining is almost always a terrible decision. What you get for your investment is a wonderful course, easy access, great friends, a second home, a place to play tennis, probably a nice gym, a good restaurant, a business network, and a million other things. If the financials are your #1 priority a country club is probably not you best option.

 

 

[DonatelloNobodie]

I have to differ with those that say that private clubs do not negotiate fees. I've been on the email list for several local private clubs since exploring membership a few years back. On at least 4 occasions, I've received email from clubs offering significant reductions in the initiation fee. Many clubs are in tough financial and membership situations these days. From time to time, reductions are used to entice new members. That leads to the question - Do you want to invest in joining a club that's struggling?